 In the context of rapidly changing labour market and evolving skills needs due to globalisation, technological progress, demographic transformation and climate change, the need for well-performing TVET is even greater to ensure smooth job transitions. This is especially critical as global youth unemployment standard 16% in 2022, much higher than the overall unemployment rate. These averages must latch disparities across countries, particularly in low and middle-income countries. My guest, Daluwashi Ulaniya is a notable executive coach, business strategist and an experienced human capital professional, is over 15 years experienced in human capital development spanned across learning and development, talent, acceleration, talent management and placement. Over the years he has built a strong capacity in process, project and people management and has an impressive track record of working with leading brands across multiple countries, including the United States, Canada, the UK and Africa. He joins me now as we rethink TVET in Nigeria as a lesson solution to unemployment. Many thanks for joining me. Thank you so much for having me here, Justin. It is my pleasure. Let's start this with just yesterday you and I were just having a pre-checking term in this. Don't present administration has its eyes on TVET as a way of getting proven down employment situation in the country. It used to be like a thing in the past that did we lose track somehow in any way? Oh yeah, I mean, so thanks Justin. I think that we actually lost track at some point, right? I mean, TVET's vocational education used to be like a big deal, so which was some of the things that give back to organizations like Naftab where you could easily, instead of going to a secondary school, you could go to a vocational and a technical school and could graduate being like, I mean, someone who is skilled, a technical skill and you can then get into the labor market and such. But I think that we then lost, I mean, which also strengthened like polytechnics and all, right? But then I think somewhere along the line, we lost it. Maybe also for higher preference placed on university education, we then make a lot more people clamor to, I mean, gain university degrees, which is probably not put the university degree, it beats above other technical institutions. I mean, yes, I think we probably lost it at that point, which is also very sad and worrisome. Okay, but right now you will agree with me that we are witnessing unprecedented inequalities within countries, especially when we talk about women, men, and of course, youth unemployment. But in your opinion, do you really think TVET is like a panacea to these issues of rising unemployment, specifically amongst the youths? Well, yes, I mean, I absolutely would say yes. So TVET is the pathway now, right? Is a strategic pathway into the fast rising rate of unemployment, right? So think about it this way, we have a whole lot of people who probably had studied at particular cost university and are looking to to practice or to earn a living based on what they have studied, right? But then you could flip it, we have shortage of well experienced plumbers, we have shortage of capentals who can do this thing, and we can even export the skills, right? But then we have a lot of people who just want to go the other route of looking for a white collar job. And like I say every time, the color of the color of the job is gradually changing, you know, it's not fast changing, right? And we then need to be able to then help build the tech and vocational space so that it can accommodate a whole lot of people, right? Also build structures and systems in place to support artisans and their businesses, right? So it's very tough for you to see a tailoring outlet that has more than two branches, even in the States. So have you seen a mechanic workshop that has a an outlet in Lagos and has any battle and has a shagam or has in has almost everywhere, right? So it means that because of the less attention paid to skilled labor, we they are not getting as much support is reducing their capacity to be able to absorb as much people, right? But then if you then put a lot of energy on building the TVET space, so it's a full value chain where we'll also be supporting like the SMEs who will be absorbing these people and once they are done. So you can see a mechanic workshop that's absorbing about three, four graduates and they are all working, I mean, they're all working well. So this person has like branches in four other States. It means this mechanic business who is hiring just two people now has the potential of hiring 22 people if strengthening and if adequate attention is placed on this scale. Okay, let's talk what more can be done to encourage MTV, but you talked about in passing, you talked about how there's a preference for in virtual education as opposed to the monotechnics and polytechnics. We also have the NBTE, okay, and all of that. But in your opinion, do you really think it is well positioned to, you know, handle all of the issues that concern human capital development, vocational and technical education? Because back in the day, even as at the secondary level, we even have vocational training in schools. Yes. Okay, so what I said, what I said this is different for is we need a stronger legislation, right, that perfectly equates and standardize all of the degrees across board, right? So university graduate is not earning more than a polytechnic graduate, right? So it makes it a clear alternative for these people. There are some causes and some, there's some causes that people who are greater from, from a technical school, a technical secondary school can probably not apply to in the university also for like basic disparity. But we need a stronger legislation to equate and standardize all of this, right? And also we need like a higher level of standardization, right? Around in, I mean, NSQ, that's that is that we're currently having which is like national skills framework that says, oh, if you are done with, if you're done with an O&D, right, you're probably at this skill level, and you can be hired by a, by a company on this level. Now, O&D graduates are largely just hired as IT people. Oh, jobs come after they're done with IT. There's no strong standardization to say, oh, this is where you are. So you see a lot of them instead of earning the skill and working on the role that they've been hired to, they are instead seeing themselves as not sufficient, or until I go get an HND before I'm able to, meanwhile, they could actually stay on the job for another six months, for another, sorry, maybe like three years, do a recertification exam, and they can then say, oh, they've matched the standard of people who are who will have an HND because they don't have an O&D plus three years of work experience, right? So now the challenge that we've been having over time is someone with O&D and with three years of work experience, is this seen as just an O&D order? After all the experience that he has done. After the years experience, right? And the person with, oh, straight O&D and then went for an HND is seen as a higher degree order. With no experience per se. With no experience per se. So standardization is now a challenge that we're battling with. What if we can work around all of this? So the person takes a recertification exam, or certification exam, recertification exam, and it is a continuous certification process that helps us through the experience path, right? It will then help a lot of people move from the unemployed space into, because a lot of people are currently unemployed now, because they feel O&D is not enough. They don't have the finance to go for HND, so they're just at home, and they account for the high number of unemployed people that we have in the country. Okay, let's talk about these training per se, because we know that Tiverton has a very high potential. Over time, all we see is that we have pockets of companies or groups doing vocational trainings for people just to give them work skills and all of that. But sometimes what we find out is that some of these technical colleges that we have, they tend to teach what they think the people need as opposed to the reality of what they actually need. So how do we go around all of that? Okay, so like I always advocated, again, we need to do a proper synergy of the town and gown, right? So the gown, which is like the institution, the academic space, I mean, I think that the curriculum, like I've always said, is a bit outdated. So there needs to be a proper synergy between the institutions and the workplace, facing reality, understanding that, hey, this is the current market trend. This is the current market expectation. I was on the panel last week, and you know what the panelists were saying? He said there is only one institution that has an almost updated fashion or textile design department or course, almost updated. And that almost updated is about maybe like 15 years ago, right? And there is an ongoing trend. So I most likely would not hire a stylist. Well, I was just graduated from that university into my fashion company because I feel that this person is out of touch, right? Oh, but then I would hire this person, this person had been gone to a school, but I had then gone to a well-known fashion house to get trained. So it means that we need to bridge the gap and put the institution and the workplace together, understanding what are the needs in the label market, what are the requirements, how can we bring town and gown together? So all of the polytechnics, all of the multi-technics, all of the institutions have professionals, not academics, not academics, right? Professionals take specific courses that can help these people build better skills, right? So my brand had just trained about 100 people in traditional textile design, right? I mean, we've done this with a professional. We did not bother to ask, what did you graduate from? Right? Participants and beneficiaries of this program, which was like number three, now earn a minimum of 70 to 100,000 every month, right? This is irrespective of what your academic background is. So it should not really be on the paper qualification pressure? Yes. Right. Yes. So this is, I mean, not Bodrum because we take you through the full cost of traditional textile design, how to make a durai, how to make batik, how to do all of these things, and we walk you through, I mean, through the full length of business exposure, marketing, like digital marketing. So we want to be sure that you can run a full business, right? And then we provide support to you and your employees on a going concern. These are the things. And that's why institutions that broad have research grants that allows them to research and people from industries can come tap into these researchers. I think that, I mean, institutions also need to open up their doors to a lot more professionals come in to provide support. I was going to say that because you in your own light can only just do so much as an ego foundation and pockets of others that we have. But then how do we, what can be done to tackle the factors that affect performance of Tibet, specifically access, you know, quality, equity, and relevance? So I'll start with the last one, yeah, relevance. I mean, I can also ask, how many people would agree for their children after the second year's school to say that? Oh, I think I think I want you to go learn automobile. To go learn automobile repair, right? So even from the home, right? A lot of people have not come to accept, not come to agree to, to Tibet. So we need to first increase awareness for the acceptance of this, which is advocacy and ensure that we make it as relevant as possible. People come to take it, right? And then second is, I mean, while we're increasing relevance, we're then also increasing acceptance, right? To say that all people can then, I mean, like take this in, begin to accept it. And then we, those are like the foundation. That's what we need. That's like the foundation. Once that is out of the way, people see it as a normal thing. So you don't look down on the mechanic or that it was a mechanic. A lot of mechanics are like, mechanics are very rich people, right? I'm sure they earn maybe more than some of us who work, I mean, inside. Nine to five or not. Yeah, nine to five, right? So, yeah, so I mean, I think when we first increase advocacy, I mean, work around acceptance, people are accepting it, ensure that it is as relevant as possible. Oh, yeah. So it then gives back to or gives lead to all of the other conversations around how to, around how to do it. Equity to, to ensure that, you know, it actually fed to both sexes as it is. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So I think that, so the commission is getting bigger. There's, I mean, there are little mechanics everywhere. Now, who do, who, I mean, also on board just women to train them in these different skills, right? And I can say most times, women have a higher capacity to learn most of the skills and learn well. I think the, the challenge sometimes is access for them, right? How are they able to access this? What kind of design, what kind of structures have been designed to help them, right? To be able to. So, yeah, because we know that, oh, they are also at home, they need to do a few things on the home front to support their families. Oh, are we able to build like structures that allows, that allows the, so for most of our trainings, we end at a particular time because we know that, oh, these women would say, oh, I want to go get my kids. I mean, we are in Africa. I mean, the women provide heavy support to the home system. So, so we sort of make room for that to allow them, I mean, also be able to function well at home. Yes. So, yes, I think that the commission is getting bigger for women, and women are beginning to embrace like most of these skills a whole lot more. All right. My people are actually asking me to rush out of the city, but once a very big thank you to you. Thank you. Tolua Sholaniya, you know, Tolua Sholaniya is the founder of our ego foundation and his organization helps with them employability skills and of course, a workplace skill so that Nigerian youths, women and of course, everyone inclusive can actually have the skills to be home so they can even be their own bosses over time. Thank you once again for your time. Thank you so much. All right. As we wrap up, stakeholders have caught very effective regulation in the e-commerce space to ensure profitability and sustain and to active players. This formed the major thrust of this course at the unveiling of an e-commerce platform, Ocari Market Hub in Lagos. I'll leave you with details of that report. I am Justin at that end. I'll see you again next time. Bye for now.