 Good afternoon folks. Thank you so much for joining us, whether live or via recording. And today we're down to the nucleus of just the really old guy and the really young lady with very very different experience orientations perspectives that we're going to bounce off each other and you folks and that raises questions in your mind. Send them in. We'll be happy to address them respectfully as understandingly as we can. We welcome those. So Redine Keahi Olalo has a wonderful background and probably understands as much about the role and value of the Hawaiian culture here as anyone I know and how it has been and is being treated in different sectors. And we're going to talk about that a little bit today because we're in the holidays and we have thrown up in a history that has not just neglected and ignored it but misrepresented it painfully wrongly. Is that a fair statement, Redine? I think so. Yes. Okay so tell us a little bit about that. How has Hawaiian culture and Hawaiian people, how have they been disrespected, disarmed, disturbed? Thank you for having me on. I'm glad that we could be on today together. You know my background is in researching incarceration in Hawaii and I think when I think about the kinds of ways that Hawaiians and other minorities have been treated throughout history I tend to like to look at systems because I think a lot of times you can see certain elements in particular systems that can be transferred onto another system where you'll see the same patterns. You know for example I think what we're seeing what I see in the way that prisoners in Hawaii are going through is similar and overlaps with the situation of COVID in 2020 particularly in the way that we view certain populations also in the way that they are affected by certain situations like the pandemic and I was on a Zoom call last night with some really amazing people who were talking about the prison landscape and it's really interesting to me for example that you know for the last four decades we've incarcerated Hawaiians at a disproportionate rate and one of the things that we were talking about last night was I'm just proportionate. I'm just interrupting but it's pretty extreme. So generally Hawaiians are generally 20% of our population in Hawaii but 40% of the prison population and that statistic in and of itself also is misleading because it's a statistic that keeps being reported year after year after year and so for me there's two implications in there. First of all when you go into a prison you know that it's way more than 40% for Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander and second of all why is that particular um data piece acceptable it's almost as if it's publicly accepted as the norm you know I'm sorry I lost my train of thought but you know what you're doing now so if I'm understanding you correctly in truth Hawaiians are not twice as likely to be incarcerated as others they are far more than three or four times as likely most definitely and there is an effect that theoretically might be called indirect that isn't because it is so deep and so personal that it is direct and that is they know that yes when they go outside they know that even if they're just walking down the street at night they are many times more likely to be stopped questioned treated adversarily disrespectfully suspiciously by people with legal authority. Yeah and there was a study that came out in the 80s that said that the deeper Native Hawaiians go into the criminal justice system the more likely they will be have longer sentences the more likely they will be violated on parole or probation and then receive even more punitive sanctions and then that also extends out to Native Hawaiians are the most disproportionately houseless in Hawaii which is a tremendous tragedy particularly when you look at the history of the illegal overthrow and the way that Native Hawaiians were a thriving community prior to that so you know I think it's pretty egregious what what is happening today still with Native Hawaiians this pandemic has one of the things that I'm on different platforms and I hear a lot of people you know complaining about the tourist economy and the industry and nobody's social distancing and tourists are coming here and being belligerent to hotel staff workers and all these kinds of things but really the root is that this was not a tourist economy in Hawaii and and Hawaii has been sold over and over and over and this is the culminating result of doing that of selling aloha so let me ask is not that sale process part of that that process of selling Hawaii as a commercial product not a culture not something human not something to respect and understand yes absolutely isn't that part of or is it part of the intentional expansion of inequality to serve a few of select groups some elements of which are racial and ethnic as well as gender this is not an accident right no no how does it connect with social justice well I mean I I think the obvious at least for me is that when you look at the prison industrial complex I mean black and brown bodies are we commodify them and you know you talk about a few privileged groups it's really the stockholders like in core civic who are making that that company's making billions of dollars because they're not only building private prisons to warehouse people who are considered throwaways by certain privileged groups but they also create subsidiaries of the company and they this industrial complex just keeps just keeps feeding itself really so you know I mean I think a lot of it is the way that we perceive certain populations and those who have privilege and power it is very purposeful to denigrate certain populations I one of the things I'll say and I'll let you go ahead Chuck is you know there's there's this tendency for us across the United States and in Hawaii to want to recognize disparate treatment but I think we're we're beyond record recognizing and acknowledging and apologizing for these things I and I think we we are at a stage where we have to be beyond these one-off solutions where we're going to celebrate somebody who did the right thing no this week I keep saying systemic change is needed but I'm starting to think we need a system overhaul really it needs to be turned upside down is it not the case that that systemic overhaul of a system that has become increasingly inequality driven for the benefit of the few at the expense of many by categorization in the way that people are treated not just commodification as you say but commodification objectifies someone who would dehumanize them right it flattens out all of the things that make them a unique human being of value for all of us hmm that's not right but it's not just and so the example that you're giving in the incarceration public safety sector it reflects exactly what is happening out on the streets with the police abuse situation in the schools with the disparate treatment of those same marginalized minority groups and it is exactly the same groups in each of those sectors healthcare education housing environment climate energy mental health those same marginalized groups that are being underserved that are being victimized that are being dehumanized and disrespected yes they're all individuals with human value how do we get back to prioritizing that I know I mean you know honestly some days I have feel like I have you know hundreds of answers for that and other days it just is mind-boggling to me that in the 21st century as globally connected as we all are that there still exists this tendency to look at somebody as if they are not human you know to just kind of detach so greatly from humanity that people are willing to mistreat people so terribly I mean you know this whole year obviously with the pandemic but also with the politics and the election and everything else has been concerning and yet interesting in some ways because what what is most fascinating not in a positive way but most fascinating is the fact that you know generally about 50% of our of united states citizens still hold views of certain populations as if they are not worthy of being full citizens and the thing that I go back to is this is the roots and the foundation of how America was built and I don't think that we really resolved that or healed from it and unless unless we really address it at the core it's going to keep it's blowing up now but it's going to keep you know presenting itself yeah we have the elected and appointed leaders who are actually using the words civil war advocating violence advocating secession we have not seen that in many lifetimes yes and they are doing that with impunity yes they are hey and so as much as we may understand that diversity equity and inclusion are key elements to moving back toward equality and away from the inequality that enables and in fact encourages these kinds of inhumane anti-human behaviors there is a fourth word element that is even more important and that is empowerment because if you diversify and make more equitable and more inclusive your education systems and your health care systems and your employment systems and all that stuff and you get more of the marginalized oppressed groups in but they're not in the decision-making position yes so the missing piece is empowerment the DEI by itself without the other E is ineffective I mean I would and we saw the results of the fact that you know people are not empowered or have a certain degree of power and I mean power in the greatest sense where you have power to serve others you know not to abuse them but I mean we saw that during the pandemic who the essential workers were you know it was all a lot of dispossessed populations they weren't sitting in the CEO's office or you know they were on the ground and they were essential and they've been the ones getting sick and they've been the ones losing their jobs and losing their homes and you know my question is you know at how do we empower certain populations I think there's been many movements toward that and yes they need to continue but at the same time I I feel like we should be further ahead than we are see and that's a great question baby that's it's a brilliant insight because as I was watching Times Person of the Year programs and as much respect in aloha as I have for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and I do to me ultimately the true person of the year this year and everywhere but especially this year is the essential worker we need to honor that we need respect that we need to treat them in the ways that they have long deserved and that's possible because what history has shown is the only times in which essential workers have moved the needle at all toward equal treatment is after disasters especially epidemics and pandemics not so much after financial disasters so you didn't see it after the 2008 cracks right you did see it after the Wall Street crash back just before FDR because he came in and he engineered that direction whether accidentally or on purpose the infrastructure building projects okay and all of the job corps and organizations and groups that were part of that essentially treated and honored essential workers as the key element and rewarded them for that and allowed them to make living wages to have employment stability and security to be able to have homes to be able to have their children have access to education to be able to have access to health care that was a revolutionary shift in the 1930s that happened because the one other element besides strong alliances of people of conscience character and courage you have to have charismatic leaders who exemplify those same three elements of conscience character and courage it will not happen without hope they almost had it with JFK RFK and MLK right but all three of them were assassinated you don't have to have conspiracy theories to understand that the loss of those three charismatic egalitarian leaders enabled the direction that has taken place in the 40 years since that time which is the direction toward inequality at the expense of the marginalized and oppressed it is exactly what you're talking about absolutely and the company that you cite which is probably the leading private incarceration company in the country maybe in the world was just the subject of PBS interviews last night and one of the company representatives acknowledged that people have been treated far worse than they deserve and is acceptable on the record this was and it was interesting because it was not the CEO speaking for the company this was a young female who was actually allowed to answer the questions I wonder if she could yeah and the PBS host who was interviewing not not one of the best I mean not a racial man but she she kind of plotted through it and it was wonderful to see this young woman acknowledge that whole classes of people have been treated far worse and more humanely than they deserve and not to be able to have answers to to show what has changed that will reverse this direction and when you combine those two things categorical mistreatment of marginalized people and the lack of responsible change which is theoretically our show thing it leads you one place which is the same place that George Floyd's death led us to the same place that the revelation that Trump and his administration intentionally sought to further the spread of COVID fought the CDC maligned the CDC weakened the CDC and its ability to fight the pandemic with effective control measures and instead adopted and flaunted exactly the opposite knowing and intending that it would cause more illnesses more deaths more long-term effects right and also more hatred I mean by politicizing the mask as a symbol of representing so many things it's caused great division you know one of my mentors and I the great one of my greatest teachers was Honani K. Trask when I was at the university and she used to always say the fight is over the ideology and you'll find that ideology in symbols and it's true you know when we as citizens start to fight with each other over whether to wear a mask or not wear a mask and you know many of you see a lot of what Foucault talked about that the masses will start to surveil the masses and you're seeing that and it's just such a disruption in society that not only takes away from humanity but it takes away from our ability to be so much better for each other for for the place for our nation very disturbing with the way that the administration has purposefully caused harm on its citizens and it is not just the extent of the harm it is which citizen that is a categorical intentional harm right background marginalized oppressed people and how many sister Millie was my lost to the class name okay so Hawaii is the ultimate no degrees of separation place right yes and so one of the things that they brought home in my late best friend ever in life Pete Thompson was one of the activists in the Hawaiian studies program while holy wikani that was one of Honani's teammates in that struggle in that effort right and maybe that struggle its tone and spirit need to revive need to come back to life because it's that struggles tone and spirit the fight not just against oppression right with the fight for measurable meaningful progress toward real equality in law it's equal access to equal justice mm-hmm putting a marginalized person giving them access to the legal system and problem representation or even public defender represented mm-hmm does not level the playing field no exactly what you have studied and talked about and explained to us has proven that if it did we would not have a huge percentage a disproportionate percent of black and brown people incarcerated mm-hmm because what does that mean it is I think the metaphor of exactly what they face in life they are controlled yes they are restricted and they are without the freedoms without the choices without the human dignity honor and respect that the others who take that from them intentionally for their own benefit inflict on them mm-hmm so mm-hmm I'm left with the same four words that arose after George Floyd's and Breonna Taylor's mm-hmm the many other killings and that is that has to stop it does and we know that those patterns only stop if they are replaced by other and better patterns mm-hmm equal access to equal justice in every single sector has to replace what leads to that treatment in incarceration in education in police enforcement in healthcare in employment yeah I think tremendous point Chuck about the need not to just fight against oppression but to fight for something better and I would just cite the resistance Kapu Aloha that we saw with Mauna Kei it was one of the best movements I've seen in a long time and they did not just fight against what was wrong but they used that time to build to build what they envision as a thriving society and and they succeeded they succeeded and out of it came many good things I mean we even have a new political party in the election system so I think there's something to be said about what are we fighting for it's easy to want to fight against and we need to keep that front but we need to start thinking about it in terms of what do we want to see and just start building it and I think you're right I think our takeaway from 2020 hey and our hope and vision for 2021 is those alliances of people of conscience to fight for equal access to equal justice in all sectors because that's what Mauna Kei really symbolizes yes Radine thank you thank you it's been wonderful with you for all you are and all you do oh thank you and for all those who helped take us in that good direction keep having difficult conversations and making good trouble see you in 2021