 Good morning everybody Good to see everybody here on our week seven of our course We're we're on the seventh week and so good to have each of you stick on and be here and lovely that You know that have been questions that have been coming up and You know the way that learning has taken place is awesome. Also welcome to the e-learning students as well Thank you for the way that you are not involving yourself You know through through learning Through a different platform, but it's so encouraging to see Everyone working together shall we just start with a word of prayer Have any father we thank you for this morning. We thank you for your faithfulness And your it is your grace that leads us day by day Thank you for bringing us to another morning of class Lord we submit ourselves before you even as we hear different ways and methods of how We bring people to you to restore them back to your image Lord We pray that you will give clarity and understanding to our minds and to what is being Taught and heard father. We pray that you will help to bring all of this for your purposes and plans Lord we pray for each person on the call each person who is Watching later father. We just pray that Your presence and your guidance is with each one of us Thank you once again. We look to you Lord for a fruitful morning in Jesus name. We pray Amen Okay, so good morning once again. We're at week seven of our class and we have been slowly picking up pace with What we're learning When we started off with Christian counseling understanding what biblical counseling is looking at principles and Slowly looked at what kind of counseling relationship We need to build what are some of the attributes that we build through a counseling relationship We looked at certain attitudes that are important for a counselor to hone as they enter into this ministry and last week we began with Structure of counseling how do we progress from beginning to end and we looked at one part of it last week So we looked at three stages. So we said the first stage was self exploration The second stage is understanding and the third stage is action. We looked at Exploration so You know like always can I open it to the to the class to? Quickly help with the recap To understand how much, you know has been retained has been recalled has been revised all of that so opening it up to you for certain thoughts that we we picked up last week and and Just for us to refresh our brains and our minds before we take on from where we left so Open to the class anybody would like to Quickly recap what we did last week. Maybe two one or two people. This is the hard part of class, isn't it? She comes at ten basic life Okay, like there is okay Alright, so in exploration. We said so what is exploration self exploration is is What what is that phase what happens in that phase? I identify the problem Okay, so yes, you're identifying the problem. You're also exploring What what is what are other areas or having a deeper understanding of the individual as well as the problem? So that's what you do in as part of it, okay? So as part of that through the entire Through these through the sessions. You're also understanding other life areas. That's what Shri Kumar had written based ten basic life areas You are looking at the other life areas of an individual and you will focus on maybe some life areas that are specifically Important to the present to the problem to what the person has is is bringing about as a problem Okay, so that's good. So that's what we said, you know, if we divide it just for our academic understanding There is an assessment and What's the second part? What's the second part that you do? This is you assess The second part is exploration first Yeah, so in exploration we said the first thing you do is to assess. What is the second thing? It's there on the first page 24 the first second line that you see Okay Yeah, so you yes you identify wrong beliefs, but it comes under identification of the problem Okay, so you are Identifying what the problem is and one of the first things that you would do is first of all We said you will check on to see if there are any physical problems that is contributing to the difficulty of the Counseling like remember we spoke about Dennis and we said, you know, he came with aggression and he came with you know behavior in in college that was That that was Buried from the normal. So first thing you would check to see is there in any kind of a physical issue That may be contributing to that Okay, then what did we say we said the first and foremost thing before we identify wrong beliefs What do you do before that? There's something you do before that? What do you do before that? Or you remember like I said, this is not like one step from another, you know, but it it all Integrates one to another but what is what is before you look into beliefs? What would you? Identify, what would you help to draw out from the counselling? first to willingness and response Willingness and response, okay Okay, so all right. Okay. Yeah personalizing the problem comes way later much later Before that is when a person comes with you with a with a problem the first thing that you need to do is to help to clarify the emotions that the person is feeling remember we said and Untaped emotions or or if an identified or unacknowledged emotions definitely causes Significant distress, right? So they they come with a problem So first you see to check to see if there is any kind of a physical issue and then at the same time you are Helping them to draw out and clarify the problem So remember we spoke about Dennis now if we remember Dennis's story if we are going to delve straight away into What his issue is without really understanding what he's feeling you're probably taking for his face value and you will You know, you may only address that he is having a problem with alcohol You may only address that he has a problem with college But it is only as he is really sharing and drawing bringing out and venting out His feelings are you able to see a lot more that you understood at a later point of time? Like what he feels towards his father what his specific dreams are what his aggression is all about all of that You understand only when you give the counselling a space to vent out their Emotions that they feel they need to come in touch with their emotions now that is a very very important part of counseling remember that The thoughts yes Contribute a lot, but the the individual is not going to straight away come in and tell you hey These are the thoughts that I'm thinking What seems biggest and most evident to them is the kind of emotion that they are feeling the feelings Come out very very strongly. So in counseling the the the constant thing that you do and I'd say constant It's not the first and the last it's the constant thing that you do is to continue to help Clarify those emotions and those feelings and that's that's very very Significant in in counseling and you know So so even in your responses your responses reflect that you have understood or you're helping them Come to a point of feeling now once you are able to draw out those Feelings then you are in a better position to go on to the next thing that that's you know Shri Kumar you mentioned is to identify those beliefs or those wrong thoughts or You know, what is it that that is That seems to be that they seem to be struggling with there again before that you need to help the Counselor to identify the problem behavior Now in this case it is Alcohol that's become the problem behavior or remember we spoke about the goal oriented behavior, right? So he needs to begin to see hey my alcohol is a problem This is the problem that I am experiencing and to find goals that To examine those goals That that lie behind it. So why am I getting into this problem behavior? Which is alcohol and and the goal is is you know to get to cope with my disappointment Remember we spoke about that to bring the goal as well as the problem behavior in together So you identify the problem behavior, which in Dennis's case is the alcohol What is the goal is you know? He's coping with with the disappointment that he's feeling. Okay, so he's taking to alcohol in order to get rid of the Disappointment then is when you will go to so when he when he gives you that kind of an understanding That's when you explore more about those wrong beliefs. What is it? What are some of those thoughts or those strategies that he uses to deal with the problem? So there you found out the negative kind of beliefs and emotions that he have It's only then that you help to personalize, right? Now if Dennis were to come to you right to the first part You know about all of his initial details and you ask him, you know, how do you how do you think you contribute? How do you you know in in words in counseling jargon? You say how will you personalize your problem or what you're trying to say is how do you think you contribute to your problem? He will say I don't contribute to my problem. My father is the one who contributes it My principal is the one who contributes it contributes to it That's because we will reach a place like that if we have not done this adequately If we have not helped to clarify these feelings if we have not helped for him to identify What is you know the issue of the behavior? What is the goal that leads to the behavior? What are the thoughts that lead to the behavior? Now once we've done that adequately Then is a place where the where the counseling is ready to personalize the problem and say, okay Now let me look at what it is that that makes me Do this right because the minute that you are going to you know To to pinpoint and say there is something that you are doing that's wrong, you know, he may feel There is a there is a high tendency to make him feel Invalidated about what else is happening around he became you as a counselor will become Just like the other people in his life the principal the father who keeps been pointing that you know You are the problem. It's because you are like this is the problem. So That is something and what does counseling do counseling helps to draw out these things So that they come to a place of understanding that they that first and foremost They're the ones who may have a very strong part to play in the problem So personalizing the problem comes way after all of that and then is to personalize the problem and the new Goal. So what is the new goal? It is to the the The the the new goal is to is to look at how can I deal with my disappointment or how Can I deal with my anger because I have understood that it is my anger or it is the way that I think That's making me resort to alcohol. So you are personalizing the problem and bringing about a new goal So that's that's what the first entire Part of it was is that clear exactly? I hope so I've just kind of crushed What we learned last week into a small thing But can we move on or is there anything that you'll have a doubt on because we need to At least have this framework in mind as to how this goes about Because otherwise we may we may come to a place of getting stuck very very easily Okay, so is this clear or would anybody like any more clarification or do you say that you know It's still very very hazy and confusing in my head. I need a little bit more or one more set of explanation. So Is that anyone else who may require that or can I move on? Okay, so I've got yes, Rikumar. Go ahead. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I just want to know this Like the identifying the problem behavior. Is it is it needed a multiple Multiple time we have to sit with him to understand it or Can we identify this problem in that long in in one meeting itself or is it a like is it a long process to Identifying the problem because as you said, this is the foundation to To find that man's another route to find the root cause of that problem. So right make a lot of time Like to understand his family background his background or spiritual background all these things. So I just want to know that Okay, so so Excellent question. So let me answer that In in the best way possible now, let's let's take Dennis and remember beth's question last time, right? So beth mentioned if you'll remember she said the way that when she looked at the problem She analyzed that it's not it may not only be an issue of career But it also could be an issue with his father with the relationship that he's father And if you remember we discussed that for an academic purpose, we have just taken one One line of an issue, okay, but that does not mean there can be multiple problem behaviors So in Dennis's case, we have focused only on one problem, but as you Take time to talk to him and converse with him you may identify more than one problem or You may identify that right in the beginning or Maybe the councillor does not talk about anything with regard to his pair father He may say, you know, I don't want to discuss anything about that We will look at it later and he's just come to you with the issue of his maybe let's say his career path But as you keep going there may come a time that he opens His relationship out with his father through maybe some conversation and that's how you identify maybe a second problem so in Through your sessions it can happen either in the first meeting or very close to You know when you're coming to the end you may identify the second problem or You know in in the middle you may identify a third problem. So what? In your in your understanding What it is helpful for you to pick these problems out and place it I mean, you know have an understanding that there are you are dealing with maybe two three things together Okay, and try some of them. Maybe, you know, maybe inter Intermingled like like Dennis's problem is intermingled. There is there is an issue with regard to his career There is an issue with regard to his father. There is an issue regard to his own self-esteem So you've identified three problems then and there itself, okay So you may need to integrate this together and work on that. So Maybe in your first couple of sessions, you may really not identify more than one But it is a possibility it can come about another time and that becomes Another goal, you know, and that becomes maybe another process of dealing dealing with the with the problem Shikumar, I hope that Yes Okay, Samuel. Yeah, I you know, I would have loved it when what he said is, you know, could we do a role-play? In theory, this makes sense, but you're wondering how it works practically now I wish we could do that, but you know, what generally happens is because In a role-play, you know, it it can it can get extremely extended, but maybe what what we could do is probably We can try some parts of it together and and Maybe can let's do this, but I will need I will need I will need a counseling for that, you know, so I can I can Work. Oh, you great. I have I have a taker Samuel I hope you might take a Samuel Yeah, yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, okay. Great. Okay. So what what we can do is We we'll we'll try and just work through the exploration part of it. We're not going to go into anything beyond that and because of time constraints, we could make it Samuel what I'd suggest to use choose One just one probably When I mean but choose one issue is something that that, you know, may may not require too much of an exploration Because otherwise, you know, we may not be able to get into further details of that so maybe just one simple problem and I can demonstrate as to how Uh, that can be done. So shall we do that? I'm I'll be more than happy to do that. I think that is a that's Even if we have to quickly crunch up the next part, but we could do that. Yeah, great. Okay. So Samuel, would you like to think of? An issue Spotlight Samuel I don't I don't mind. I don't mind because I see the value of Learning in this so much Great. Okay Yeah Okay, so shall we start? Yes. Yes. Okay Um, all right, Samuel. Uh, thank you for for volunteering to discuss something I'm sure it has taken you some form of courage to Discuss this here with us. How can I help you Samuel? um Faster um Samuel, can you give me a minute? I need to get a paper. Please give me a minute. Yes Yes, Samuel go ahead um, so, um pastor my um, so I Don't feel like going to church anymore um My parents go to the church and um, everyone goes to church and uh, I haven't been going for quite a while. Um, and uh, I just I just I've gone to a couple of churches. I just don't believe in going to church anymore I I have a personal relationship with God, but but but I um, I'm not liking um Everything within a church in the context of the church and um, if I've stopped going to church, but this is causing a lot of Uh, rift between my parents. Um, my friends my community members So um, I'm especially I think the big problem for me is my parents get uh, getting a lot of uh, so my my dad Is um, he he holds quite a respect like he's the elder at the church um, so, uh, he He holds quite a respectable position. So, um, but am I not going to church? I think um, he's He's facing um problem at the church even to a point where he's considering of stepping down from his leadership But I don't I mean I I can pretend but and I've done that sometimes but um, I just I just don't feel genuine and I I feel more um guilty of being in the church Because I'm not willing to rather. I would just be at home and and Pray to God in my own way Okay, uh, so Samuel what I hear you saying, um is that um You feel a sense of dilemma because you feel on one hand You have a lot of mixed emotions with what is going on. So you feel guilty for a couple of things one is for the way that um Your decision is impacting your family uh, and uh, so much so that you know, you feel guilty that he may need to step down for from his leadership Because of the choice you're making you feel also, uh You feel torn and guilty to I think you feel a lot more torn because You want to be genuine And you don't want to be pretentious While you are a church um, you also feel trapped because you would You feel you can you need to sit at home and and you know, just worship God and you don't want to go to church for Um, I'm sure there are certain reasons for that and that's what I'd like to explore And uh, you feel very torn at this point of time in making a right decision. Did I hear that right? Um, not exactly torn or dilemma. So I think I've kind of made up my mind that I won't go to a church till I Find a church that I think I'll I'll feel more I mean, I'll I'll not but but the the the two churches that are near my places Uh, I've tried going to my and uh, like you mentioned, I feel a little pretentious and I I can't help but Be very critical of everything that I see there Um from the way the service is conducted to the people that I encounter at church and I come back Feeling more resentful So so I've kind of made up my mind that I'm not so so I don't think I'm in a dilemma but uh, but I definitely Feel bad for my father who's undergoing this lot of pressure and heat and uh, I tried talking to him uh, but uh Like I Like I don't want to hurt his feelings also too much. I but I'm not able to Sort of make him understand like he doesn't understand Why like when he he could fit in and and it's this like it's the same worship the song And when he can connect so much he he can't understand like how like he In in in so much so like the conversation goes where um, I think it goes to my father touting my fate Which then I become more defensive and then uh, so it doesn't every time we have this conversation. It's not very productive, but It um, it becomes me not being able to explain to him and he thinking that I'm backsliding or something like that So Okay, thank you for clarifying that so so what I heard you saying is you are pretty sure about About not wanting to go to church. That's not the dilemma. So, uh, you know, I think I think we've understood that Okay, a side note to all of us. So what what what are we doing here right now? Is that we've identified what the problem is? So when he initially when when uh samuel initially spoke it almost looks like he doesn't want to go to church Right and we may think that that's the problem But he's very well clarified that that's not the problem. The problem is what he's facing with his father Okay, right. So so I I parked to the the earlier problem and we are going to go on to the second one Shay, do you have an observation question here? Uh, it's more like an observation. So I think that the the way we go is we start from the obvious And then we look for that window that takes us into the Real issue. I might get it right now Yes, yes, and you can do that only when now what what did I do is I raised certain Feelings that samuel's going through I said you appear to be in a dilemma You appear to be trapped appear to feel guilty. So, you know, you see how he clarified and say no, I'm not in a dilemma I am very sure I don't want to go to church. The issue is With my father. Do you see that so if I had not clarified that reflected that feeling or bought that back to him I wouldn't have been able to identify that now since I've identified it I'm going to move away that which is not relevant and looking at that which is relevant I hope I hope that's clear up until now, right? Very clear. Very clear. Yeah You can also take an observation. Um, you know, so Uh, um, so something that I'm learning is Like I'm thinking like, you know as a counselor, I have to say the right words Uh, like, you know, you're feeling this so what I understand is you're feeling dilemma pretentious and all And then when the counselor comes back saying, no, no, I'm not feeling dilemma. So as a counselor probably I would I messed up, you know, I told something wrong But I what I'm learning is that you are not shaken by And you're admitting that okay dilemma is not the thing I I thought it was dilemma, but it's not and so I'll I'll take that off So so you're not shaken by me refusing refusing to acknowledge that it's it's Dilemma. So so so that's that's that's something I'm picking up Yeah, so I think what we should understand is you may not always be spot on To identify what they're feeling and that's why you're having this exchange of communication, right? And and and it's only through that that you clarify a lot more as to what they're going through So don't I think it's perfectly okay to not understand the issue but to keep clarifying so that you've you've got that Okay. All right. So we'll move on. Okay. So, um, yes, so I what I what I heard you saying Samuel is that your your Your issue or the struggle is more with how you are dealing with your father and and the the struggles that are coming As a result of this church issue with your father you said You know, you kind of feel that your father probably looks Doubtful about one your own salvation and whether you are backsliding and you have attempted In very many very many ways to help him understand But you've kind of been unsex unsuccessful in that right? Okay now Samuel what I want to understand from you is What are you hoping to? derive from our discussion here? What is it that you what kind of a? Um I'd say a hope or an outcome. Are you are you hoping to derive as you and I discuss this? So I've thought of this process. So one is I think, um, I don't know if you could probably talk to my dad And or someone could talk to him like I don't know who could make him understand But if you could talk to him and probably help him understand So that is I think that would Make At least resolve the Constant tension that we are having at home. So that is one But the other thing also I'm I'm thinking maybe I'm beginning to think that something could be wrong with me also that That you know, I'm I'm I'm so critical about Um I've tried to in and I feel it's it's uh, it's it's a little hampering to my own spiritual journey Where um, you know, I I want to be loving and I want to be kind And and I've been praying about it But I can't help but be critical about my church leadership and other folks That so so I think that is also a big problem that I've been But the more pressing the immediate one is these Tension that I'm having with my dad. I just want someone to talk to my dad and Right. So Samuel, I do see your feeling almost, you know Quite stuck and you know, you really want some kind of a release and you feel that if someone were to talk to your dad Things would get better. Uh, so I and and I also Um, you know, notice that you said that you feel that probably there's sometimes you You know, you're looking within yourself and you feel that probably you've got to take note of Of your critical spirit or whatever whatever you're going through. So I'd like to deal with that After maybe I just understand this what do you think would be an outcome if someone were to talk to your dad? How different would it be from the way you have spoken to your dad? Samuel um, I think I so When I talked to him, um I don't know it it almost like because he's also in the leadership. I maybe you know, I end up attacking him A little bit. That's why he gets offended easily Because he knows that I don't um, I don't I'm not very fond of the church leadership and how to do things so So that but uh, someone a senior pastor or or a pastor that coming from Them probably he would not uh Be offended like he would not take it as a person like that. That's that's what I think if somebody else talks I mean, I can't imagine my friends or my spouse or anyone talking because it would still, you know, there's the age gap and and All of that. So and and I don't uh, have anyone senior who could Talk to him and make him understand. So I'm thinking just just a different person Someone elderly someone at us at from leadership position would would help him see that that I That it's it's not my spiritual journey, but it's more Uh My own struggle of being uh critical about the church and not wanting to be pretentious And and and this uh feeling of bitterness that I got like I I'm going to church So I'm thinking that I'm going to choose for fellowship for coming um for brotherhood But I'm coming back with opposite feelings and and and and uh and But my father thinks uh, it's uh, it's my spiritual backside. So it's just for him to be able to understand that Okay, so what I hear you saying is that you would like to involve somebody else one Is because you you feel that your dad Senses that every time You're being critical about the church. It's more like an attack towards Him too Right and rather you would like him to see that it is not a personal Uh offense that you have towards your your father But then it's something that is more personal for you something that's more A journey for you that that this is a journey that you need to take and You feel you're not able to de-link this to every time this conversation comes up It becomes more more personal than it it seems to be more individual. Is that right? Did I hear that right? I I think so I think so Okay, all right So what you'd like to communicate to your father is that that your choice Of not wanting to go to church or to the specific churches that he'd want you to go Has nothing to do with the way that you see him or or the way that you disregard him or His authority or his leadership. It has nothing to do with that It has some it has a lot to do with your own spiritual growth and your own spiritual journey That's what you would like to communicate to your father. Did I hear that right? Yes Yes, I'm definitely but more than I'm yeah, I don't know if my speech but but but my view of the Church, uh, okay Yeah Okay, so what we're what we're trying to get here is that it has it doesn't have much to do with your relationship with your father Your choice doesn't doesn't have anything to do with your relationship with your father It is it's something that you are personally needing to deal with right? So we All right, and you feel that someone as an outsider would be able to communicate that much better than You would be able to because you are so emotionally involved and he's so emotionally involved with you Okay, so so that's something I I suppose Samuel that we could explore over time But I'd like to come back to what you spoke about. You know the the fact of That You wouldn't you would like that your father Sees this objectively And you would also like to come across to your father with a respectful and a non critical way All right, so that he doesn't See it as something like a personal issue or a personal attack How is it? What do you think? Yeah, or what behavior or what words or what in you do you feel That that that you bring out that makes your father feel the way that he does That you're being critical Of him or disrespectful of him What either what words or what actions or or what is it that you bring out that makes him feel the way that he does Once just a bit Samuel just a minute. So what am I doing right here? Can anyone identify? What am I doing right here? Understanding the feeling of What did I say I said from your You know what what about you makes your father feel this way. What are we doing here? Exploding You up I am helping to personalize the problem Right. So what am I saying here? I'm saying Samuel what in your behavior what that you're doing? Is it that's making your father feel the way that he is right? So I've personalized the problem I said okay because he said you remember he said I sometimes may be critical my father feels That I'm being critical and disrespectful of him. So I've come to a place brought him to personalizing the problem. Okay. Yeah, go ahead Yeah I mean, I think that that's such a great question. Uh, so it's it's making so, um, so I'm going back to role play more The past every time we come back from church and then I try to keep quiet but we end up talking and I end up pointing out Mostly I end up pointing out all the things that went on especially in our church. We have so we have this upper balcony kind of thing and I normally sit in the balcony area and And I see all young kids sit there and all of them are in this like So this is like the youth of the church and and they are not interested the the format that the church follows It's there's like a lot of announcements and and um and the people who Even come for sermon and preach. It's not one constant person It's like different person all the time and and it it's it doesn't like especially in the back like in in When I look down the the seniors the elders They sit in the front few rows and they somehow seem to be engaged but um, it's just it's just For me, I feel you know Like the whole back section of the church is ignored. So I just telling um I just can't help saying how the church doesn't care about The young people and and and also, you know, the church the pastors are mostly critical like They're always pointing the fault of the young people and say like, you know The youth are not so interested and all and and I'm kind of putting the blame back on them saying The church is not doing enough to engage the young people And then I then somebody says something from the sermon Which I feel is more like a personal opinion something I point that out saying like this person said and and these are his friends mostly are people he respects So I feel that way he gets offended Someone says something and I end up saying like that person shouldn't have said that or or could have said it You know better way or something like that and then he then we get into an argument of Like no, this is that's like so he he tries to defend that person and and I understand And I'm not attacking again. I'm not attacking the person. I'm just attacking I'm seeing a problem. I'm seeing a problem that What comes out from the pulpit what comes out from the church leadership is is only for You know a few people and and I my constant plea or my my mind burden is that we're losing the my generation and and the generation below me And I yeah, and and I think that's that's my every time I bring that out Let's get into a debate So so what I see is that you've observed something in church that And and you have your understanding of it and when you bring that out to your father He he's probably unable to take it objectively and take that more as an attack towards him and and his His thoughts, okay So have you identified or have you looked at what what what does it make your father feel or what do you think it makes your father feel When you bring about I'm just using the word judgments here Okay, when you bring about these judgments against his friends or against certain things that Is being said about the pulpit or the very course of the entire service. What do you feel your father feels? So My father often likes to quote This I don't know. So he heard It's one of the u.s. President. It's like ask not the ask Not what the country can do for you, but what you can do for the country or something like that So he always likes to pull that way, you know, he he keeps Coating about what I can do for the church or what we can do instead of what the church can do first So I think so one is Now now that I think I think he I'm I'm In some ways is like maybe Where I get offended is I probably I want him or yeah him to understand that the ownership Maybe him to take the ownership or or even acknowledge that the ownership Is on the church leaders and he doesn't seem to fully agree that the ownership is With the church, but it's rather individual. So I and yeah, I think so he he wants me to Also, yeah Probably it's more like He wants me to take ownership of my own Attendance in the church and just be there no matter What the church does, but I I just be accountable and I just show up and be even if Yeah, and and So I I Yeah, I I don't know if I'm able to show him This this part is confusing part because um, I think I think I it is something to do with Owning the problem like who's who should take accountability for the problem and To me, I think every time I try to put the accountability on Him or the leadership That's where he feels it's Not their accountability, but it should be the accountability of The individual Okay, so so I think you yeah, you you clarified something you you feel that your father thinks that Uh accountability should be individual should be on the individual themselves And it is their responsibility to fulfill that accountability Whereas you think that the that the leadership should be accountable for what they say and what they do Yeah on the church I like on The leadership and just to think about engaging everyone and not just a few people or not just themselves Uh, whereas my dad thinks like it's On me and everyone else whom I'm speaking for that they should take the accountability of being engaged Um, so if I try to suggest like maybe you should try this music or this bomb Is my dad has told me something like Like when when I've pointed out like Something along the lines of young people are not attracted to come to church or something along those lines and he's like If if Jesus can't attract Young people that nothing else can so even if you put up presentations or or good music if if the gospel and The message can't bring is not enough Then nothing else would be ever enough So people should realize that and come on their own and while I Agree to that to some extent but I have to feel like the church should put in extra conscious effort and not just be So traditional things So what I again hear you saying is that your father and you have opposing thoughts about How you engage with the larger community Your father feels it is the responsibility of every member to join in to find a way to to Engage with what's happening at church. Whereas you you have a different thought that Whoever is up on the pulpit should be responsible for those For an entire so so we have two Opposing beliefs here Samuel Yes, yes, yeah Okay, right. So I think we've understood that okay now How much do you think that you know your the belief that you've had and your father's belief? belief Do you feel that is that there is an attempt to influence? So what's happening here is you're attempting to influence his belief He's attempting to influence your belief. Is that right? Um, I think I think so. I'm not sure if he's attempted to influence my belief Maybe not attempt, but hoping to see a sense or Or some value in the beliefs that either of you hold right and that's where that's where Yeah, I'm definitely trying to influence his belief. I'm trying to get him to see That you know the church should change its ways Um, but he's not So he's he's just not accepting that and I think that also calls that that causes so that So I see that leads you to frustration and and some sense of uh, You know, uh, does that does is that what's bringing that that sense of criticality in your father criticality towards your father that that you get upset that he doesn't see the sense of belief and Brings about that sense of criticality in you And I I don't get so much upset, but I end up upsetting him more and and I feel bad So I I think I see it objectively and I can completely see where he's coming from, you know, we have He he he like I am millennial person. He didn't grow up with like he still struggles to use his Smartphone and things like that. So so I can see him and the rest of You know, so I I kind of empathize with them But uh, I at the same time I I can't bear Like I can't somehow Go to church and and not And just keep quiet and not talk to my dad about it Mm-hmm. Mm. Okay. So what I what I see finally right now is Samuel you would like to What you would like to do is to stay respectful and Less critical about your father You would like to hold on towards Uh towards your understanding of what church means to you And you would also like to In some way help your father see That one this has nothing to do with your personal relationship with him And this is something that you would you would you consider as important for you And this is this is nothing to do with how you relate to to your dad So are these have have we got an understanding of this? Yeah Yes, okay All right, okay So, you know this this I know like we've really cut the shot But this this actually helps to explore we have figured these these things out Okay, that there is a difference in the way that that is a belief that Samuel has there's a belief that his father has And what's coming in conflict is the mismatch of these beliefs Okay, and what we what we want to help Samuel as he said is to be able To hold on to the belief he he feels about about the church But maybe what we need to really explore and work on is Would it be necessary that he has to When I say the word push or to influence his father with his own belief Okay, is that necessary to do and that's what we would probably do further on you know in sessions further on Is it really necessary to push the belief that you have to your father? How is it that you can be? Uncritical or a respectful of your father even though there are these different separate beliefs that you have so that becomes You know getting into the goal setting and into the next phase Okay, I hope I hope we were able to I mean Samuel. I think I need to hear from you What did what did did you were you able to get some clarity about how you need to go forward with With the issue you I know you haven't got a Solution yet that that you haven't but at least through your communication through your conversation Has it become more clear about What is the problem for you and how is it that you would like to take it forward? Was that is that something I think you know give us your feedback as to what you felt Sure pastor. Thank you. Um, so So so I think there are two levels of problems pastor. Um, you know, there was sometimes I was in the role-play mode and sometimes I was actually In uh, it's it's a it's it's not to that extreme. I just I exaggerated a few things Yeah, yeah So the the issue with my father Reconciling, I mean, I think that's that's a surface level problem because on something I I don't know But if I may if I may I'm just adding a few things like These things didn't come up. But now that I think of it, uh, you know, like on on more like I I do have a very heavy Relationship with my dad like we joke about we talk we go for walks and things like that So so probably that didn't come up. It's only regarding my church attendance. So that's that that's a surface level problem Um, that that uh that I'm dealing with which I feel is like, you know, like we we have some small Disarguments, but rest of the days we are fine. It's it's not a bitter feeling that stays with us for quite long It's on your car comes on a Sunday. It's gone by Monday morning. So something like that but the but um the the the bigger issue with me is still about me being critical about The church and and me also sometimes like I On most days most times and I I know my criticality is Rightly placed like, you know, because it's the intentions are right It's it's for more youth engagement. It's for more like it's for the church to have more authentic Worship at least at least that that's what I'm thinking. So my intention that it's it's not I'm not Just being critical, but I have these suggestions and other thoughts also But also I think the problem is like with me is you know, uh this this this Like should but even though it's rightly even if it even though it has the right intentions Should I like and I think you brought that out, which is like, you know, should I hold on like Like should I hold on to those beliefs? Or or because sometimes I I get the feeling that I may be wrong like I shouldn't be so like I am empathetic but sometimes I have these thoughts of like, you know, like That maybe I'm wrong and then but then that doesn't sit well with I know that I'm not wrong But but again sometimes like, you know They are gods anointed people And they are You know running the church and they've done a lot of good work. So I Like who am I to be critical of them? So like You know, not like When I go to church like and I come back resentful of being critical like I there's a sense of like Like I'm on one end. I'm being critical. But on the other hand, I'm also this internal conflict. Like, you know, it's it's a problem with me That I'm not able to appreciate enough What people are doing and I'm being so so that's that's that's the bigger issue that I'm having And that didn't come out so much and I'm but but given the time I think we had a very crunch time and and all of that and and there were places where I realized I I was consciously holding back because It'll come out. Maybe if it was an authentic counseling, I would have expressed this like what I'm saying right now But I was hoping it would come which which you did right now, you know, I think you bought it out really well so your conflict right now is you um, you You know, you're you're in a place where you Where you want to be careful as to how critical you are You want to be you want to be critical in a good sense to bring about good change but not Have a spirit of criticality in the way that you deal with a person You know, you deal with your father or whoever it is. So you want to have a balance of how you want to Institute that criticality to be careful to bring it about for a general good But of course not to harm or to hurt or to disrespect a specific person. So that's what you are looking at Yeah, okay, great. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, so this is you know, a real Small little sample of how it is done, you know, this actually this kind of a conversation can keep going for maybe two Three sessions till you're actually able to really get a gist of it I mean, I think Samuel already has a very clear understanding of what he wants So it was much much easier to take it on but a lot of people when they come to you They have no clue as to what they want, you know So to just be able to tease out the problem to come to the basic need of Of the individual in itself can take so much of time. Okay, great. All right So shall we just have a break of 10 minutes? It's 10 50 it on my clock. We'll come back at 11 We'll move on to class from there. Thank you so much Samuel. Thank you very much