 Hi, good afternoon everyone. Can you all hear me at the back there? The smartest people in the world come from the back benches. No offense intended to the front benches here. So welcome to our panel discussion and pitch session today. My name is Madan. I have multiple hats. I have your story and we tie Bangalore and today we are going to do a pitch session in the format of Mixer, mxr.world. Mixer.world is a hybrid platform for showcasing startups, connecting them to investors and the larger ecosystem. So we also, at the end of this event, we also publish all the pitch decks online. So if you go to mxr.world, you can see over 100 pitch decks in categories of startups by theme, education, fintech, AI, enterprise workflow and so on and so forth. Today our focus is design and I'm very thankful, grateful to the organizers of UX India for launching this first panel at this conference and I hope it'll be a part of the regular conferences every year from now on. So what we do is we embed within a conference like this, a panel and a bunch of startup pitches. So as you all know, Bangalore is the hub of the IT sector. Bangalore is also the hub of five other areas. One of course is traffic jams, but let's not go in that direction. Bangalore is also the micro brewery capital of Asia. How many of you ordered that networking dinner last night? So that's a good example of how Bangalore has maybe more macro breweries than hospitals. No, I just made that up. Bangalore is also the coffee capital of India. How many of you were at this amazing event earlier this week called the World Coffee Congress and Expo? It was in Bangalore Palace. Bangalore has the largest number of people who are reselling, buying coffee, etc., sourcing it, making coffee machines and so on. So now the buzzword in the coffee sector is not just organic free trade, etc., but of fair trade, etc., but experience. How to build a good coffee experience. Now you can buy certain gadgets and make coffee at your own house and you can have your own parties and engage with different kinds of people. You can make your own brews. You can combine coffee with alcohol, coffee with chocolate, coffee with different kinds of gut, bacteria, whatever kind of solutions and make all kinds of stuff. More importantly for us today, Bangalore is also one of the startup capitals of the world. It's in the top 10, 20, whatever top startup cities in the world. Bangalore is also one of the top AI talent hubs in the world. We are in the top 4 to 5 in terms of AI talent in Bangalore. So all of these are coming together now in our session today. So thanks for coming today and we're going to begin with the first part of a program, which is pitches by startups who have been shortlisted through a jury process. These are design-led startups, which means it's not just tech and the business model, but design is a core part of their startup journey. So what we've seen in the startup world is typically designers become entrepreneurs in one of three or four different pathways. One is students fresh out of design school start a design-led startups in different sectors, clothing, apparel, e-commerce, AI, whatever. The second track is a techie or a business halfway through their career realize, oh I need to do this new thingy, but I don't know design. So they become self-taught designers and they launch a company which is design-centric. The third category is people maybe in the corporate world, UX, UI designers, maybe like many of you who get bored with the corporate life, sorry to your employers, but they get bored with the corporate life and they want to do their own thing and they break out and launch their own startups. You'll hear some of those examples today. You will also hear from a panelist who will tell you you can do both. You can be a UI UX expert in a big company and you can launch a site project which eventually becomes a startup which you can spin off or buy. Okay, so we're going to see each of those today. First without further ado I want to invite our first startup of the day to come up Arvind Prakash is the founder of Super Bolta. Arvind please come up on stage. Big round of applause please for our first founder Arvind Prakash. Hello everyone. Thanks Madan. My name is Arvind Singh. Let's just wait for the slides to come on. Wow, this is the biggest audience that I have presented to. All right, so my name is Arvind Singh. I'm a three-time entrepreneur. I'm building Super Bolta with the vision to empower any person on the planet to get a beautiful home. Imagine Canva for Homes over the clicker. Let's meet Rishi. He's 35-year-old software engineer from IBM. Today is his big day. He's achieved the biggest milestone of his life. He's bought a new home. The big challenge now, I mean he has a lot of dreams. He wants it to be perfect. The challenge is how does he hire an interior designer? How does he get it designed? So one of the things for him is I have all these empty rooms. How do I fill up with products? Like most people hiring an interior designer is going to be expensive and time-consuming. What's that going to do? Like most people he's going to forego that option, maybe hire a carpenter. He's going to fill up the house with products but the home is going to lack the soul. Why does this happen? Three big problems. One, visualization is the biggest problem biggest challenge. Even for two, whether it's websites. Now imagine taking this to the 3D world. How do I visualize hundreds of products, different color options, different sizes in my home? Second, the design materials is tightly linked with cost. Any change in cost alters the design. Any change in design alters the cost. Making the first problem even more complicated. And finally, all the tools and products which are there in the market cater to professionals, experts, and there are very few platforms which cater directly to end consumers. So what has happened? Rishi has lost a beautiful opportunity to create a timeless, soulful design for his home. That was his one opportunity. You go down the path and then there is no turning back for many years. He's not going to throw away the wardrobe because the laminates look ugly. So presenting Superbolter, a platform that I envisioned. This was a six year old startup. I ran an interior design company before this. I understand the problem on the ground. I delivered 100 homes a month, right? And realize this is a biggest UX problem, user experience. We need to make it extremely easy to get this guy on board. So the solution should be something where I can get started very easily. Don't make me do complicated steps just to get started. I should be able to design very easily and I should have control on the cost. I should know how to execute it. So presenting against Superbolter where you can design your home in 60 minutes. You should actually try it. So we are a consumer first 3D home experience platform where which empowers any person on the planet to create captivating designs using design templates coming from interior designers and products coming from real merchants in the market. What does it mean? How does it work? Very simple. We have a catalog of thousands of floor plans which are already available in the market. Imagine prestige, Purovankara, Brigade. You can go in, search for your home, find your home, add to your dashboard. You get an instant 3D model of your house. You can then in a click write designs and products. As you design, automatically the cost is calculated so that you know how much it's going to cost. So we are solving all the three problems that we talked about. Extremely easy to start, extremely easy to design. You have control on the cost. This is how it works. You see on the left, I'm searching for my property. It's a Brigade utopia cornerstone. It's a new property. Once I add, I get a 3D model of my house and on the right side, what you see is I have one click. I've clicked on applied design. The entire design gets applied into the house. In that particular design close to about 20 products are there. Imagine if we had to do this by himself. Each product, maybe he's going to look at hundreds of so far options, hundreds of carpets. This is where the designers come in. We've brought in both consumers, designers and merchants onto a single platform. Does this work? When I started almost six years ago, many guys said it's impossible. Architect says no one is going to use it, etc. One of the guys who said absolutely this is not going to work, last year he came in as an investor in the company. So it's been a long journey, but we've been we've done maybe more than 100 releases, just to crack the user experience. What we have is normal people, accountants, teachers who are able to now design their home like a pro. In the last 12 last six months, we've seen a 12 x jump in users, right? About 20% of them have gone on to become power users. Our focus is on that. Right? Just to give a comparison. In the month of June, more than 100 floor plans were uploaded per day. Even yesterday, if I go back and look maybe about 100. Just to set context, this is not a direct comparison. The two of the largest players in the country, organized are live space and home lane, and they delivered about 10,000 homes per month. We don't do end to end. It's not a direct competition, but this is just to set context. We are early stage, we are we are getting more than 100 homes per day. Right? The market is extremely large. We just talked about the new home market, which is a small minuscule of the total number of homes across the globe. So last year, about 4,000,000 homes, builder constructed homes came into the market. You can imagine average spend of maybe about 6,000,000 rupees. Opportunity is very large. And then when you extend this to renovation, right? I think there's a huge opportunity for us. It's not just the residential. Now if I take this to offices, commercial spaces, or any other kind of space, we have I see an opportunity there for us to enter. What sets us apart? Again, most platforms have a two step process. We are a single step. The direct 3D model of your house that you get is gorgeously beautiful. You should all try it. Our visual quality is great. The biggest thing is we have the designs that I can readily apply. And it's built for the end consumer, keeping design as a number one. So we are design led startup. We are driven by data. So we measure each and everything, every data point. So every month, millions of data points are collected for every click that happens on the platform. So that's SuperVolta. We are building a platform to empower each one of you to get a beautiful home to try it out. Thank you. It was interesting to hear all the three stories. And the first thing that I would say I missed the users in this entire thing. Who are the people who actually will use these services or products? I saw it for the first time, but one little thing. I want to really see those stories of people using these products end to end from the very beginning, trying to imagine their homes, imagine their families, imagine their weddings, imagine their children growing up. Those are things that I'm starting to look at when I'm looking at stories. Designers are about those stories. So designers look at those stories. Where are those stories? But design led startups need to have those stories. Those stories are missing. So I would tell the startups to look at those stories, tell the entire thing through the user's eyes. And we are missing those. So here is your answer. Yeah, I think to be fair, the first one did have a couple of slides about stories, but you're right. The other ones probably didn't have as much and they aren't here to defend themselves. So I'll pass it on to them as a feedback. Sujatha, any comments on design? You're a founder yourself, so how would you see their journey as founders? Yeah, I liked all three of them. The first one probably because he was able to present it himself. And he spoke about the soul, right? And I would have liked to see a little more of the soul in the product, right? Because there are a whole lot of features that are provided, which is great. And how does the soul come into play out here? And I think some of it came through the testimonials. But again, because we are looking at a pitch and you want to have a lot more people coming into it, can we have a lot more of the soul? That's something that crossed my mind. But each of them, and there was a second one which spoke about bringing AI, MR, AR, ARVR, and bringing in design thinking into it. And I was trying to figure out, I mean, isn't design thinking already there in the sense we can't live without design thinking any longer, user experience, human centeredness. These are all part of all of what we do. And so do we really need to call it out is what I thought. But nevertheless, wishing them or wishing all three of them the best. Fantastic. Let's turn to the investors now. This conference is not just about design. It's also about AI in design. So let me ask our two investors here. What are your thoughts on deep tech AI, generative AI? How are these featured in your portfolios? Have you already got exposure in this space and so on? Yeah, I think specifically touching on AI, I think definitely it's a lever today for designers to kind of leapfrog. Because till yesterday, maybe you, you were operating with your kind of brainpower. I just call it as a RAM and maybe database or hard disk what you have got from God. Today with AI, I think you get get that superpower of actually even designing or asking this question on behalf of a customer on behalf of best of the designers for that particular problem and get solutions or get some things. So I think definitely AI has come in as a lever for designers from a design or entrepreneurship perspective. Second thing I think it's also important touching back to what some of the pitches what we have seen is AI definitely gives you some I would say right to win far faster. So so far whatever skills you have brought in with your experiences, you can leapfrog that with AI, not just from your own domain perspective, but what has also happened with AI. So maybe if I take an example of yesterday's today's designer, he's he can be best designer, but can he be best accountant? Positive question, maybe answer maybe not. But yeah, I think you can also bring that skill. It may not be 100% at least 70, 80% there. So I think that entire horizontal kind of a skill set which you as an entrepreneur or designer can bring in, as well as going deeper to some extent definitely comes as a lever and that I think seeing as far as as I being investor, if you somehow can show that I am using my own skill as a founder plus whatever insights that I've gotten. But because of this technological advances, I have a better lever or I have a better insight to kind of like right to win or right to kind of play in this market far better than anybody else. I think that's a successful possible formula, both in terms of raising investment, both in terms of also getting customers and maybe touching upon your point, like getting the sole of or making product habitual with the customer. So there are a bunch of levers I think AI opens up for you. Which is the how are investors looking at AI and in particular what's next? Of course, thank you so much, Badan. Definitely there is a lot of interest in AI startups, but why are we really interested in that is ultimately the focus is to make money also, but you never forget that part of it, right? So whether it is the startup was building and designing their product, the user experience, so that they can make lots of money for themselves, they can raise money. So from the investor point of view always, Badan, what we would look at and I think this is important for all of your aspiring and want to bring some great startups to your own life. I want to become a founder is that can you make sure that over the next few years, whether whatever technology that you're using, you're going to make sure that you get a lot of customers, you're going to be profitable, you're going to make whoever the user or the or your fan or whatever is of your product to make their life easier using the AI and also by using this conversely AI, gen, AI, chat, JVD, etc, etc, you're going to get so many customers globally and always design and think globally because that way your investors will come in, your investors also will be thinking that okay three years down the line are we going to get a 10x return from this startup. So when you think of money, you design for that, you grow towards that, technology is where it is AI or blockchain or whatever else is the next trend we don't even know about what's going to happen. It's all about that modern. Money is very critical and I think the AI is going to bring a lot of that into many people's lives. Thank you. Great, that's a good perspective which is see if you can find a line of site from your design to some kind of revenue. Dhriti, I want to bring you into the discussion now. We talked a lot about the opportunity for startups. What are some of the challenges for founders when a designer decides to become an entrepreneur? What do you think are some challenges founding teams go through in the journey to launch a company? Right, so hey everyone, good afternoon. It's so heart-warming to see all of you over here in spite of the bun. So kudos to you all. Some of the challenges, you know, whether you are a design led startup or not, but you're not dressing specifically the design led crowd over here. One of the things that you definitely want to look at is get your hands dirty early on. So as Arvind also shared with us over here, the experience that he's had, he's put in that experience into the startup that he created. He was one of the companies that had Rishi as his user persona. I think that is super critical. You need to pump in of course as much data as you can. That may seem to be challenging to begin with, but you'll be surprised by the number of things that will come your way if you just work with an open mind and see that if I'm here in this moment, how am I going to make it work? What can I see over here that I can use to my advantage? And of course you want to collaborate, right? Because design by itself is not going to help you. You need to have a clear angle for business. How do I get the money in terms of technology? What am I going to create? And then in terms of design, of course, it surrounds it all. Is that what is it that my user is looking for? I think those are some of the skills and, you know, things that I would be looking for. Great. You talked about skills and that's my next question for the panel, which is how do founders, how do designers build the complementary skill sets that they need? Design is one part. You also need tech, you need business, you need accounting, marketing, outreach. So how should designers go around filling out the founding team with non-design kind of skills? Let's start with you, Rikul. So it's a difficult question and it's a difficult task for most of the designers probably in this room, okay? Building tech skills, you need to work with the technologists to understand technology deeply. You need to work with business to understand business deeply. You need to sell to understand sales, okay? You need to do that and if you're not doing that, you're not growing, okay? Find companies that can help you do that. Find partners that can help you do it. Partners in terms of, you know, people you work with, you know, do that because if you do all this, that is how you will grow. So to grow upwards, you need to grow sideways, okay? So you need to understand technology definitely, you know, very, very deeply. Without it, I don't think you will grow. So find those partners to grow up. That's a great quote to grow upwards. You need to grow sideways also. Sujath, any comments on how to round out the skill set in the start? Okay, for me, it's been baptism by fire. Where I work, which is at emphasis, I handle a different portfolio which is, you know, I handle the learning solutions that we take to market and it's predominantly about working with clients, various stakeholders, curating content, delivering conversations and, you know, workshops for clients, using design thinking approaches and all of it. But when I started my startup, which is rustic earth to soul, is where I realized that it wasn't enough to have all the content in place. I had to go ahead and do my own sales. And that's exactly what has, that's the bug that has bitten me. I have my product out here. This is something that I probably never did, right? Which is a talk about my product. I probably put a lot of thought into it, but I never sold it. So I actually went ahead and learned the art of selling or probably I'm still learning the art of selling. But the point is that I have to dabble around. I need to know the finances. I need to know the operations. I need to know what else is happening in the rest of the market. And it's not enough for me to just allocate responsibilities to everyone. I need to be kinesthetic. And I'm a kinesthetic learner and the only way I could learn the ropes and the way of the trade is to actually get into each of the roles that were required. So I had to be a CEO. I had to be a CFO. I had to be a CIO. And I don't come from the technology space, but I have to learn AI. How is it that I'm going to be able to use blockchain to build my business? And this is something, this learning has been enormous for me because it has given me a kind of a leap prog my business into the next level, not just as an entrepreneur, but even at Infosys, I went ahead and got into the sales team just for me to understand that these complementary skills, Madan that you spoke about, are really, really critical for entrepreneurs to exist and sustain themselves. Dhruvthi, what are some communication challenges, for example, that come between very diverse silos? So actually, a thought occurred while she was talking, right? And what she's doing is absolutely what every founder needs to do as you are at the start of your journey. I think the challenge really arises when you're scaling. What part of the business are you willing to delegate? You know, there will come a point in your journey where you need to stop being the expert and need to start leading a team of experts. I think that transition that you make from being a founder to being a leader, some people call it manager, I call it leader because that's essentially what you're doing is you're leading a team of experts. How do you hire right? How do you find the right people who are as passionate about your project as you and your co-founders have been? I think those are some of the things that you need to start thinking of. I'd spoken to a company, you know, while I was writing the book, an entrepreneur who had at the very start, even before he started the company and at the ideation stage, he figured out what is the vision and the values that he wants to live by. And he was not sure whether he's going to get the funding. He was not sure how far he's going to go in this journey and I can tell you he's gone real far. But those values are what guided him in that journey. The vision that he had, based on that he started hiring the talent and while he was scaling his startup, he didn't have any trouble because he had the right team in place. So I think those are some of the things that you want to consider that today you may be a four-member team or a eight-member team, but very soon, because of the passion that you have, you are going to grow by leaps and bounds. What are you going to do then? You know, as we say about networking, don't build your network when you need it, but you need to start doing it a little bit more proactively. Start thinking in terms of what is the culture that you are creating in your company, what is it that you want to really stand for and have your values really clearly set out and I think that will really help. Thanks for bringing up that very important topic of culture. Let me ask our investors over here now. When you invest in a team, what kinds of roundup are you looking for in terms of the skill sets of the founders, especially as they scale? It's one thing to start a company, it's another one to scale a company. So how do you guys evaluate the team of a design let's start up? I think maybe I'll touch this question on the last one also to some extent. So design nowadays becoming one of the interesting currency, which startups or the founders or businesses have. Earlier we used to say developer is the costliest currency, but today design also is. Because if you take from starting from an idea, presenting it right, storytelling, pitch decks, getting a product right, getting the packaging right, getting a marketing plan right, getting communication right, even to an extent that can you get your excel sheet presentable to investors or the guy who is not from that thing. So design is everywhere. So somehow I think just from addressing everybody here, design today is not related to only product related stuff or a communication, it is across the cycle of businesses. And more earlier it comes it's there's a higher chance of success of that particular startup. So if you have better pitch decks, you have better kind of eyes and ears of investors, you have better marketing plans or customer communication. So I think design actually today if I compare a bit 10 years back versus I think next 10 years, design is going to touch upon everywhere. And that's already been seen in terms of how many people are aspiring to be designers, the creative economies, or number of schools which are going to come up, etc. So one definitely, I think one take away I would say for you guys is design is everywhere across the lifecycle of a business. Coming back to the question on what do investors look at assuming the design is to some extent that question is addressed definitely is, as Vijita said, profitability of a business because end of the day if I'm an investor, I am looking for a model or a founder who can give me money back in some time because we are not marrying as a founder with a company, we are marrying financially with a company. So we want to see a journey in our lifecycle because we don't have 100-year lifecycle, we don't have 20-30 years of lifecycle where the brand will take etc. And there are different kind of investors. If I'm an early stage investor I'm looking for next five years. If I'm a series investor another five years from there. So every investor joins to you, he's going to join with the board and come back, exit that board at some point of view. And these, I think timelines are important for you to understand. Second point I would say is going back to the idea itself is it lethal enough? Is it competitive enough? Is it global enough as you touched upon? And going back to design I would say today and this is also UX conference gone other days when you design for a user. Today we are not designing for user. We are designing for a group. So for example if I'm giving experience to user is this user happy and he's going to refer that experience to somebody else? Is he going to put it on Instagram? So this entire network so it's almost like designing your UX is actually not user but it's a group of users or user and his friend, user and his family and those kind of things. So a huge network effect is getting greater and we call it sometimes virality. Is the product has some network effect or virality into it so that there is a better competitiveness? So these two three factors profitability the founder obviously, founder mix or does he we call it as founder market fit for you guys to kind of understand is this founder well said to take on this particular market and finally the product itself is called as product market fit that comes little later with an early stage but do you have some kind of product market fit where the market is going to off your product not just for product for the sake itself but today's world is about mind and action right even if I'm not using a product can I back off your mind I'm actually excited about that product it's almost like notification I'm happy about getting a notification even I'm not using the particular product so some of those if elements beyond the traits of I think the journey of I would say startups is what typically we would look at and across different stages Vichita quick response to the definitely sir promise to keep it quick so I will just quickly do it I used the word twice now one is that in terms of building your network your network and also the discipline of being a founder whether you're founder today or tomorrow look at organizations like Nascom Type Bangalore NSR cell of IMB they're really useful you can get you know very good quality mentors you can meet founders who have been there done that failed made a mess but now growing crazily well okay that's number one number two in terms of the investor point of view I'm from Dexter Angels Dexter Capital please take a look at some of our portfolio companies and it's not a plug for them but if you see the way they've incorporated design so for example we have multi-bashi which does the language training then we have a company let's call Freakins Freakins does ladies denimware okay phenomenal stuff then we have a company in the healthy snacks food called tags they tie up with people like Shikar Dhawan etc etc but see the design of their Instagram posts see the design of their product the way they market it the way they position it all across the world in supermarkets so that is also design that is also making sure that you're visible you're learning your skills of marketing you're learning your skills of getting sure that customers are buying it and staying sticky to you so these are some of the elements that will make a very very big difference and number one is you can't know everything but as a founder you have no choice so best is to design your productivity design your thinking design your learning that okay I'd have gaps say in my legal my financial acumen marketing etc etc but I'm very very good in certain things but don't take that for granted build that and also let your weaknesses also become your strength so keeping it crisp and short Madan but let us also be part of the support that we can extend to the entrepreneurs and founders and startups in this room thank you so much I have just one question for the panel but I want to open up to the audience for questions we're very short of time so what we'll do is this we'll take five questions from the audience but the answers will be given in the coffee break so any questions 81 got a question doubt clarification you want to join you want to invest in these startups you have to be yeah can we get a mic to our friend here and just tell us who you are name no speech just name in the company and a quick question yeah that's working hi it was question quick question for the non-designers you've been I've talked about design for a while and from your experience peace in the Indian ecosystem you see that really creating a difference do you see design founders being able to add that value are there interesting cases that you have seen and would you want to talk about that okay good you can park that question next question any questions comments yeah there's a hand at the back there please answers will be given the coffee break we got no time but it's very important to hear what's on your mind yeah hi I have a quick question for service design so I know that we're right now talk about UX a lot but I wanted to just get perspective on how you see other fields of design coming in especially in India okay that's a great question last two anyone got a quick question okay there's a hand behind further back I think left side is alive this side of the room is dead I don't know why yeah just kidding yeah hi Aditya here so I just want to understand like I have a colleagues who looks down on people who use generative AI tools or design tools so how do we educate them in a proper way so that this is not a bad idea I want them to make them understand like it's like it's very confusing for me to tell them like this is the generation where we take help from many kind of AI tools which will support our day-to-day activities as well so some people looking down on people who take help of AI tools I just want to know how to educate them or is this a mindset that I need to fix in it great question cultural perception of gen AI park that question last two we can take two yeah one up here that's a question for from the mic up here actually in the interest of time I'll come to you yeah I really wish you made them answer the question now but hi my name is that's a guy I think my question was a lot more on this whole idea of good design is good business is something that people keep saying it does seem like a lot of the startups that I've come across in the last two decades haven't been good for humans or humanity I was just a bit curious about this whole idea design-led startups is this truly design-led are design coming aligned to the business or are they coming as a bottleneck to the business needs how has that been in startups because in larger organizations I think politics becomes very different I was just curious and maybe over coffee we hear a bit more about you know how the designers actually get to speak up against business goals because they thought this is actually not good for users or not great okay question about ethics and philosophy that's better dealt over drinks rather than coffee but we can talk about that later last question the winner will get a free ticket for next year's UX India conference no just joking I guess we're out of time now but let me ask the panel in closing what can the audience reach out to you for most of them are designers some of them may want to become entrepreneurs in 30 seconds each what can you offer our audience here okay I think the my you can go to multiply venture's website if you are building some business we do inception to series happy to invest if there is something investable so happy to reach out to you or you can reach out to me for any support on design to entrepreneurship cycles anything around the startup ecosystem community my name is Vijeta Shastri LinkedIn Twitter Facebook Instagram the only thing I share about is what's happening around innovation what's happening around opportunity for startups founders to make money talk to me I'm glad to help you guys out report if you are a designer I'm sure everybody is and want to get into entrepreneurship design led entrepreneurship okay reach out done to startups failed both of them so please reach out to you know there's another question altogether how to learn from failure another whole conference around that Sujata all right so anything to do with human centered discussions empathy conversations is my product actually aligned with what the end users want these are some of the conversations I typically have and as an entrepreneur because I have I mean this is a startup that I have started I've had my agonies and my ecstasies and I'll be more than happy to share that with you and I continue to be a resilient entrepreneur Dhriti I know you want them all to buy a book what else can they reach out to you for so I'm also a charter member at Thai and part of that I also mentor women entrepreneurs and my company C2COD we are into consulting so a related organizational developments at some point in time and I'm hoping it will be soon when you want to scale your startup that's where we come in because we help you know align your people and strategy so that's where we come in