 This is Ross at Teacher Talk at the most influential blog on education in the UK. Today, I am joined by an old friend of mine, Ronaldo Lawrence. Ronaldo, hello, how are you? I am extremely well, thank you. Ronaldo, can I ask you to introduce yourself to our listeners and tell everyone what you do today? Sure, I'm an educator. I work at Glenn School in Epsom. I'm an Adobe Educational Leader, a Microsoft Innovator, a teacher developer. I'm also an Apple Distinguished Educator and I'm fortunate enough, man, to have written two books. One is a self-help book and one is a comic book because I didn't see many people that look like me in comic books. So I created my own comic book. All right, well, I'd love to see the comic book because I know your book. I am more than what you see and I haven't got a copy. So I need to sort that out. So I'm going to sort that out as soon as we finish today. But you're right about role models. So I would like to talk about diversity and racism and, of course, ed tech with you. What I'd like to do, Ronaldo, I'd like to unpick the backstory. Now, I know you have a basketball history. Maybe our listeners don't your MBA kind of scholarship career over in the States. Could you rewind to maybe, can I get you to describe your 16 year old self first of all? Yeah, my 16 year old self, which is coming into himself. My 16 year old self was a person who was not that confident. I my feet grew before my body did. So I was picked on a lot. OK, my hands were much bigger than the average person's hands. I was picked on a lot. Yeah, but my I think the thing that I would say to my 16 year old self if I had to know is that everything is going to be OK. And those lessons were, you know, the lessons that you learned then would prove to be invaluable today. Um, but I am in high school, man. I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship and I played at Appalachia State University to play with a guy before I went to Appalachia Lancaster, Glen D. Hart, and I played for a Hall of Fame coach, Bobby Crimmins at Appalachian, and then I did the NBA thing. And when I got cut, I came overseas. So I played in various countries. I played in Finland, Argentina, Sweden, Russia, a lot of places, man. And one of the things that I'm very pleased with with all of that is that I still have friends in all those places. I go to Finland before the pandemic, once every two weeks, I have a dear friend there. Yeah, man. So I came over here, played basketball, ended up being the I think it's the fourth league score in the history of basketball, 73 points to the game. I am 73 points in a single game. My whole various records. And I was very fortunate enough to be blessed with a son who played in the Olympics, played in the Olympics with Great Britain basketball. And I'm doubly blessed because I've got a daughter who's a social media manager at Vogue Business. Yeah. You know, so I'm really blessed. And I've got a wife. I've been doing my research and I love the father comment that you've written in a blog that I've discovered where you didn't want to give your advice to your son and daughter. You kept quiet, but they now come to you for advice. So what kind of things do they come to you for that? Perils of wisdom? Well, I think a lot of it, man, is, you know, I remember me growing up and me not wanting to listen to my mom, a dad at all, because I thought I was grown, you know, so. But I think my grandmother always says something to me. She said to me once when you have kids, be quiet and you're at the right age, they'll come to you. My son played basketball, man. And, you know, I used to give him advice and try to push him to do things or whatever. And I just shut up. I just shut up. And I just watched. And all of a sudden, man, one day he just came and he just asked me my advice, man, almost fell off the chair. You know, and, you know, it's been like that since. And I think one of the the most amazing things that I've got in my life is my relationship with my children. Because I think. You know, I was fortunate enough to have parents who cared enough about me. And I had a grandmother and grandfather who I just absolutely adored. And, you know, it's usually funny enough the way you were raised is how you parent, you know? So I was blessed enough to be parented, I think, quite well. I had my mum as though, but they wanted to kill me. I had my mum. Oh, we all do. At what point did the teaching conversation happen, Ronaldo? When did that happen? Well, I had my degree in the States. I was a teacher in the state. Well, I was I had my degree in the States, but I never taught in the States. I did some substitute teaching, but I went straight to Finland once I got cut. I went straight to Finland, spent two years in Finland, in Olu and in Silo, a place close to Helsinki. And then after that, I went to the various other countries, but I always have my degree. And one of the things that I used to do because I'm just interested in people and I'm interested in how systems work. So when I was in Finland, I spent a large part of my day in schools, watching high schools work and teaching basketball camps because I always knew that I wanted to be something to do with education. But I just never thought that I would actually be a teacher per se. You know, yeah, but that's where the education became in. And I when I came here, I met my wife. And I always like to say, man, she turned me down three times. You know, I'd enjoy. She turned me down three times, but I've been with her for God knows how long now, which has been amazing. But I started teaching here and I started teaching. Ross, it's quite crazy because I started teaching just on a whim. We had a young lady, Alina Gallimberska, who was playing basketball with my wife. And and she there was a young lady who was there, who was pregnant, who needed to go off. And so she just said, would Ronaldo like a job? I had a degree, so I went in originally for six weeks. And that six weeks ended up being 12 years. And you're an IT teacher, yeah, ICT. Yeah, I was P. I was. I was a P.T., and I then was in a room one day and this guy, Glenn Cole, he's passed away. God bless his soul. And he he had Microsoft Word open, but he had another program called Photo Draw. And he dragged an image from Photo Draw into Microsoft Word and I fell off my chair. I was hooked. I remember it well. I was hooked. Yeah, I was a photo draw. Yeah. Yeah, I was hooked. And I know you worked at Chiswick School because I have done I have been that way. So that's going back a few years. So, you know, just maybe describe that kind of part of your 12 year journey, you know, teaching, at least in London, you know, things you've done. Yeah, so I think one of the things that I'm most proud of, I used to teach at the Great Court Hospital School and we had a headmistress who raised over 10 million pounds as self man. Queen and Duke opened up the building, opened up the school and we were fortunate enough to meet the Duke, meet the Queen and everything because of the athletic prowess of the school. And I left there because my son was born and then I went to Chiswick and Chiswick was interesting, man. Chiswick was interesting because I had previously at Great Court only taught girls. And then I went to set you on the Baptist School and I taught boys and girls. So it was a big difference. And then I went to Chiswick School and then Chiswick was was very interesting because at the time, Chiswick was, you know, London schools, not all of them. So I'm not painting a brush, but the school at the time, they obviously had some issues with behavior and whatever. But I was very fortunate, man, because very seldom did I have any issues with behavior. And I think a lot of that has to do with I think, first of all, how you treat people, not saying that other teachers didn't treat people well, but I also think of my statue. But also when the kids found out that they played basketball and I was American, then all of a sudden, you don't have to say much. Yeah, like that, yeah. And you missed the same when my son went to the States. You when they found out that he was English, he didn't have to say much. Matter of fact, they wanted him to talk because they loved the way he said. You know, some of the schools I've worked in, Ronaldo, you know, if I, you know, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with Gregson's Academy in Tottenham. You know, the vast majority of the student population there, you know, black Caribbean, black African kids who absolutely love basketball. And, you know, having those role models, you know, our basketball club was incredibly popular. But, you know, having those connections in class and with sport, we know it's really important. Now, I'm going to move it forward. We met in 2011 at SL TeachMeat. Do you remember? I do, yes sir, I do. Do you maybe describe some of the memories of, you know, what the event was, why you were there? Well, I was there because, as I said, man, I had just gotten into IT and I had not a clue what was going on in IT. I had no idea. And so what I did was, I was fortunate enough that the school let me out this one particular time. What I did before that, before I came there is I asked all the teachers in my school because the young lady, Susie Ralph, who was there, she was pregnant and she told me that she was going off in a certain amount of time. So I said that if you want the job, it's going to come up. So if you want the job, well, it's up to you. So I asked every single teacher or every single department in that school, if they had an internet site or a website, what would they do? What would they have on it? So they gave me the materials. Now, Ross, this is not a word of lie. I had no idea what I was going to do, not a clue. So what I did, man, was under time when the library used to be open on Saturdays and Sundays. So I used to go to the library all the time. And so I went to that teach meet in order to sort of get a broad perspective about what was going on in IT. And I think I came away a little more confused than I was before I went. Because there was all these people trying to sell things. And so it was interesting. It was interesting. It was interesting. I mean, that SL teach meet, it was designed, it was an event, as you know, through Twitter, teach meet's quite common practice now. But it was a one, I guess, that I had organized with Stephen Locchio, you remember. For school leaders explicitly, rather than, I guess, classroom teachers or like yourself struggling in a particular subject or a classroom, you'd be pleased to know that today, I'm sure you've been to one or two yourself now that there's very dedicated subject ones that will help teachers that need that. So yeah, I guess that the question is, how did you survive in those earlier years? Well, I think I survived through pure ignorance. And I think I also survived through just, and I'm the same way now after all these years, man. I just, you know, I eat and breathe the computer. I eat and breathe the camera. I eat and breathe the ability to help somebody else. I eat and breathe the opportunity to get up in the morning and just create digital content that somebody else can learn. I'm gonna interject on this one here, listeners. So if you're not following Ronaldo on Twitter or Instagram or wherever, every other day, if not every day, you post a little motivational video and when you come across them, you do make people feel good. I can vouch for that, Ronaldo. You do make me motivated. So thank you and please keep that. What was your message for today? I haven't done it today. I never, I never, it comes to me and it just comes to me and when it comes, I know it's the right one to put out. We'll be one later on. Yeah, but sometimes it happens in the morning, sometimes happen midday. I don't. All right, when it comes, when you enjoy the flow, just like a good basketballer. Now I wanna switch the conversation to something really important. I wanna have that conversation about diversity and racism. Yes. You know, white man, you know, the conversation for me, I think working in London significantly helped me and now I'm back in, I wouldn't say my homeland, but now I'm back living up north. You know, it's quite a diverse area where I live, but definitely not as diverse as living in London. And I remember my own thoughts about the exposure to diversity when I first moved, when I was 19 years old, teacher training in the early 90s and I do thank teaching for broadening my lens. And I guess it's that education word that matters more than anything, doesn't it? And as we record this, we're talking about a little kind of Palestine, you know, the kind of conflict in Palestine and Israel at the moment and a little event that happened on our London streets, you know, all about misunderstanding or conflicts. Can I just get your general thoughts on where we are today, Ronaldo, what your hopes are for the future and things that we can do in our schools? Well, I think there is still a long way to go. I think the problem, I believe personally, I believe that part of the problem is all of a sudden, if you've never been around people and it cannot be your fault, but if you've never been around a group of people, all people are different. And when you have a group of people who are different, that says it to you, it is sort of different when you, you know, some of the things that they do, even me here, when I first got here and I dealt with some Caribbean individuals, you know, that was different from what I was used to. And I just think we're in a place now, man, where I just think we need to listen to each other. I just think we need to be heard and people just wanna be heard, you know? I think, you know, that thing that happened to Joyce Floyd was just, it was awful. But like his daughter said, man, he changed the world. He changed the world because all of a sudden, people who didn't wanna talk are now talking. People who were scared to talk are now talking. And as a black individual, I don't care how much I would march, I don't care what I would say. If there's no white individuals involved, then nothing happens because- And I think that's it. It's important to talk about it, isn't it? Oh yes, oh yes. Well, you look at what happened at the riot at the White House in America. If that were black people, they would have slaughtered them. You know, absolutely. Yet a lot of those people are getting off, you know? And it's that, it is that white privilege that people really don't understand that truly exists. That truly, truly exists. It does. And we have to acknowledge that. And I think, you know, I'd like to kind of maybe pick what are your kind of hopes, you know, not necessarily broadly, but are there specific things that schools, teachers can do in their classrooms? Yeah, I think, number one, I think that the first thing, and please remind me at the end, because I'd like to tell you a site that I've created. Okay. I'm a young lady in the States. But I think, man, one of the things that we can do instead of just teaching white history, why don't you teach all history? Why don't you teach some of the truth? Because a lot of the history that was written was written for the white man, and a lot of it is lies. I don't think a lot of kids have actually heard about, you know, the Tulsa, the city that was in Tulsa. And they just, they had all the black bankers, all the black lawyers, all the black people were prominent people. And all of a sudden, you know, this group of white, they just ran and just killed all those people and looted the place and just destroyed the place. As a matter of fact, LeBron James on the 30, he and Maverick Carter, I think is on the 30th of this month, comes out with the Netflix drama about it. Right, okay. I think this is important to tell stories. So on the first point, I guess, you know, what do you think needs to happen in the curriculum? You know, a more diverse curriculum, explicitly in history or in all subjects? In all subjects. I think that's the problem. And I think that's the problem in general with education, man. I think because what happens with education is everything is separate. The kids don't see any kind of connection, you know? And I remember a time when I was here and we were teaching, whereas if I was teaching IT, someone in history did something and then they would come to me and then they would turn it into a multimedia, you know? So there was sort of some kind of connection around. Yeah, and I mean, and if we even pick up on the IT, you know, I've taught computer science in my time as a teacher. And now if you put me in a corner, right, let's unpick the diversity behind the curriculum choices, who designed what components, that would make for an interesting conversation in IT alone, I think. Could you give us a second tip? You know, having this conversation, talking about curriculum and telling stories, what would be your second piece of advice for teachers? I think the second thing, man, is to find out about the kids. Because one of the things that I do every single year, be a black, blue, purple, or green, is when those kids walk into my classroom, man, I wanna know something about them as people. I don't even look at the curriculum in the first week. The first week spent with them talking to me about who they are, me finding out what instruments they play if they play the band, what church they go to, me trying to find out things about them. Because believe it or not, a lot of those kids, man, I'm the only black person that they will deal with on a consistent basis in their young lives. Yeah, I can believe it. I can believe it. Yeah. Can you give me a tip for school leaders, Ronaldo? What would you advise those people, dare I say, white men at the top, to think more broadly or strategically about making a commitment or a change to how they do things? I think one of the first things, man, is you need to try to find some people that look like some of these kids. Because I don't care who you are. You know, you wanna see people that look like you. And you wanna see people that you can emulate that looks like you. I think the second thing is on top that you actually have to make a concerted effort to have a curriculum that is broad, to have a curriculum that you insist that history is being taught from a different perspective. You know, and I think also what needs to happen is, possibility, you know, you have this black history month. I think it's amazing. But every single day should be a black history day. Every single day should be a day in which you're teaching about different people from around the world. You know? And I think, you know, and it's controversial. I think one of the biggest lies, Christopher Columbus discovered in America. Now, I don't know if there's a controversial question, but I wanna ask it. Yeah, actually, I'll tell you anything. I don't care. It's black history month outdated in today's world. Because I know the skills I've worked in, it was always a month to celebrate. I think that's critical and important. But as you mentioned, it should be every day. How do we, is it a changing curriculum that will make that history month celebration an outdated model? Or is it important to have specific dates such as it's national hug day, national dog day, black history month? Are those dates just as important to at least shine a light on specific parts of our world? I think those days are important. But Ross, every day that I walk in school and I look in a book, I see somebody that look at you. I don't see somebody that look like me. That's every day. Why do we just say one day is gonna be, or one month is gonna be black history month? I think every day needs to be taught. History needs to be taught about people. Yeah, and I agree with you. So I guess keeping the black history month is at least shining a stronger light on something that should be happening day to day already. Yes, yes. And you know what? And I'm gonna tell you something very quickly. The world is in education. If you look at what's happening in the world, you can bring any topic into the world and use that topic in order to teach kids about what you want them to teach. But people are afraid of speaking the truth. Because people are afraid. I think it's, you know, I'm getting braver talking about, you know, diversity and racism. I think, you know, you have to go through that pain barrier of having that uncomfortable conversation. It's a point where you're doing it on a podcast that's public and just encouraging others along with you. Now, I wanna switch to the pandemic and Ed Tech. I admire you for bringing the topic up and I thank you for bringing it up because I'm knowing you for a while. And I don't think there's a racist bone in your body, man. And I'm just, I'm very pleased that you would take the time to ask me questions like that. So I just wanted to say thank you publicly. It's my pleasure. I'd love to talk longer about conscious of the podcast time ticking overall. So otherwise I'd talk for hours, maybe listeners want to hear more. So you'd love to let me know. But we're in the pandemic and you're an Ed Tech IT specialist today. You weren't 12 years ago. What lessons have you learned about the technology issues, how you've adapted personally and professionally? You know, what would you say 18 months ago to you going into the pandemic? Okay, I would say that I was prepared. I would say that all the stuff that I was doing 12 years ago, leading up to that, I was prepared for it. Because I'm constantly learning, constantly trying to do things to better myself. So I was sort of prepared. And I think what I've really, really gotten from it is that nobody knows what the hell they're doing. Nobody knows. Everybody's guessing. And I think that if you want to be something in this world, you just got to try stuff, man. And if it fails so what, at least you know not to go down that path again. But I think what I've learned from the whole thing is try stuff, do stuff. And I've also learned, man, in the classroom that kids are the most forgiving people in the world. I am. Kids are the most forgiving people in the world. If you make, it makes you human. Maybe not a wiser soul. It's particularly on social media with the kind of call out culture. And that might probably make us a little bit more reserved. Don't you think? I agree, totally agree. And social media is a different beast onto itself. So what's the kind of key thing from the pandemic experience that you've learned about life, teaching, love, whatever it would be. What's made, what's become important to you? I would say that the first thing that will become important to me is that I am somebody. And I've learned that I'm important. And I've learned that I'm special. I learned that everybody on this planet is special. I've learned that I have a family who's absolutely amazing and supportive. I've learned that anybody who's in authority anywhere that when the pandemic hit, you can see that everybody was guessing. So I've learned, man, just to try stuff. And I could care less anymore. I'm gonna try stuff. That's really good advice. So what have you tried, let's say, the last month that's new? Filmmaking. So I've tried, I've got me a... Does that personally or professionally for the classroom or for yourself? It's personal right now, but it's gonna be professional. And I am going to, probably the area that I'm gonna look at is headshots where you interview shots. I've already been working with a guy called Tony Ryan, who's the head of DT, one of the organizations with DT in the country. I wanna do a lot, man. So it's something that I'm really passionate about, something I've gotten the equipment, something that I feel miserably on, or something I just love. So I look forward to your movie, Little Videos. Now, I've got one more big question for you, I suppose. You're a wise man. You've been around the world. You've worked in lots of different environments. You know the pressures that our schools are under. What's the one thing that you think is the most important thing you'd like to see change? I think the most important thing I would like to see change pretty much is the curriculum. I just think, man, that I think one of the biggest issues that we have is, you know, computer science is amazing. And don't get me wrong. I think computer science is so important, but not every kid is gonna be a computer scientist. And I think what's happening now with the curriculum is we're trying to force some of these kids into things that they are not ready for. And I just don't think that is right for some of them. I mean, it's right for some. I think up to key stage three, I think it's amazing. I think it's amazing. But once you get to key stage four, I think then you need to then start thinking about what you're going to do. The other issue I think that I have with education is, how in the heck we expect kids who are year eight to pick things that they're gonna do for the rest of their life. I think that's pretty much a joke. I don't even know who I am today, you know? I'm just trying to find out who I am, how you would say that I know that I wanna do this particular subject for all of my school life. So are you suggesting that maybe kind of option choices, exam testing might come a bit later? Yes, that's exactly what I'm not suggesting. I'm saying that. You're saying that, okay. And so perhaps more kind of work experience type friendship of opportunities for our children at an earlier age to allow them to, you know, I love my work experience at school, at least allowed you to explore the real world and then determine what you might like doing in the future. But we all go through a career change at some point in our lives, don't we? Yes, oh yeah. Now we've passed, well we're 25 minutes up at least on the podcast run out. And now I don't know if you're familiar with my podcast but I throw a quick fire questions at my guests to try and catch you out. So I'm gonna see if I can get you to pause or hesitate on a question and catch you out. I'll start easy and I'll go slow and kind for the beginning. So what project are you working on at the moment? What's on your desk? Creative Dimensions. I'm creating a film course of what I'm doing, learning to be a filmmaker. I'm creating a course teaching people the mistakes I made and what they can do in order to be better along with how to get started and the equipment. Okay, what book are you reading? I'm reading my own book because I think it's a very good book. Okay, are you more prolific on Twitter or Instagram? Probably Twitter. If you organize your own TeachMe for teachers that are new to computer science, what advice would you give yourself? I think the first thing I would do is teach them how to create content like video, audio files, and then so they could put it together so kids can learn on their own. What's your biggest career achievement to date? What are you most proud of? My biggest achievement I'm most proud of is that I've stayed in education this long. Fantastic. What's your piece of advice for new teachers who want to get into a bit of kind of academic or education research? I think the biggest thing to do is to try to find out the area which you're interested in and then go around that avenue and run that path. A piece of research or someone that I need to read or follow to help me understand why privilege? Oprah Winfrey. I think she has the stuff Oprah. I think also that one you've got me on because I know a lot of books but I just can't think of them right now. Right, well, I've got you on the spot a little bit. It's a hard question. So we'll put some links in the blog, I'm sure. Behavior, you mentioned behavior earlier and you know, talking about stories but what's your thing that you, how do you get kids in the palm of your hand? Well, you must have a methodology or a way of kind of wooing kids to make them kind of believe and listen to every word you say. What's your kind of magic ingredient? I genuinely care about them and I listen to them. I let them have their voice. Okay, what's your favorite computer science piece of software in the classroom today? I don't teach computer science. I teach Adobe Dreamweaver. I use Adobe Premiere, all that stuff. I'm on the creative side. Okay, fantastic. What's your favorite app on your iPhone? Favorite app on my iPhone probably is my camera because I get an opportunity to send videos to my mom who's 95 years old with dementia and then she can always play them back. Right, fantastic. What do you do to relax? I get on my computer man. I do film stuff. Reminders of your two book titles? Okay, so it's I Am More Than What You See and then there's the comic book, Boy, Get Off My Pig, but there's also a website which is ourstorybeyondbooks.com which is a website that we've created in order to promote people of all races, of everything, you know? We have a lot of stuff on there. I love to check out that cartoon book. And what would be your advice for a teacher who wants to write their book? What advice would you give? I think the thing is, well, let me put it like this. I think the mistake is that if you don't write the book, I think if you've spent the time in order to live any part of life on this planet, I think you have a story to tell. And I think it's very important that you tell your story because if you help one person. Now, last question, Ronaldo, what do you hope to be your legacy? My legacy, man, that's why I wrote the book. I wrote the book so I would always be on this planet. I wrote the comic books, I would always be on the planet. But I think my legacy, man, if I was to die tomorrow, I think the one thing that I would want somebody to say is that when I met him, he treated me like a human being. Fantastic. So there you go, folks. Ronaldo Lawrence, Ronaldo, when we get out of this lockdown craziness and I'm back in town, we're gonna hook up for a coffee and have a good old... We're gonna have a hug, first of all. And then we'll have a good chat about racism and diversity. So thank you very much for listening, listeners. Tune in to the podcast. You're listening to Teacher Toolkit. Speak to you again soon. Thanks for listening. Cheers, Ronaldo. That's brilliant. Appreciate it, man. Yeah, really good fun.