 Yn ymlaen y prosesa gael yn y gynhyrchu? Ymlaen o'r gwirionedd ar gweithio, wedi'u bwysig, mae'n dychydig am gweithio'n gwirionedd. Felly mae'n gweithio'n gwirionedd ac mae'r gweithio ffarrololol yn gweld. Mae'n ddau i chi'n ffordd i'n gwybod i'r bwysig. Fawr! Mae'r bwysig yn ffordd i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Felly mae'r ddweud o'i bwysig yn ddod o'i ddau. So, they went out, locked the door, put the fire alarm off. I was still in the building and off goes the alarm! What do you do about that then? That's an unexpected process when there's an actual threat to the environment. So, as I say, it's August of the Mill. There was another door we could get out of. But we dealt off the back of that with things that do happen unexpectedly to security and safety. And we were dealing with safety and security, and it took many, ydych chi, dwi'n credu bod y cyfle a'n nhw, ond i'n gweld hynny. Felly mae'r ydych chi, rwyf amser wedi argynnu'r gwybwyr, oherwydd mae wedi'u hyn yn dweud y cwp yw ddwy'r gweithiau ar y rhan, byddwn i ddych chi, yw'r cyffredinol. Rwy'n fwy fydd y gallwn, rwy'n fwy fydd, oherwydd mae hi'n ddiw'r gwybwyr. Felly ydych chi'n cyfle i'r argynnu a'r tîm, a'r bwyddiol yw. There was somebody who's been sexually abused, for example, and then suddenly? It's birthing in. You can use it. The trick to this is, you can use that. Once you've sorted it out and everything else has been alright, you can go back and say, Well, what happened there? Is there any link to your childhood when there was such an invasion of your psychological spirit, or whatever you like? Dwi ddim oed, ymlaen, ydych chi'n rymdyn nhw'n ddweud yn ddweud y Ddweud? Dwy'ch i chi'n ddweud â'r ddweud, ac yn cofio'r ddweud. Yn ymddangos y Ddweud, ddweud y Ddweud yn ddweud yn ddweud, bydd bob Cook yn Jacky Jones. Welcaid o'r newid y pwg ar y dyfodol, maen nhw yn 57. ac yna'r unig o'r prosesu bwysig yr unig o'r cyfnodd yn syrraedd, oherwydd yng Nghymru Jackie Johns ac y bwysig bob Cooke. Rwy'n rhoi, rwy'n mynd i'n mynd i'n meddwl i'r ffordd o'r ffordd. 57 oed yn rhan, rwy'n rhan 57 oed yn ymwysig. Rwy'n rhan 57 oed. Rwy'n rhan 57 oed yn rhan. Rwy'n rhan 57 oed yn rhan 57 oed. Rwy'n rhan 57 oed yn rhan 57 oed. Rwy'n rhan 57 oed. Ac mae'n hi'n hynt yn ymddangas Music, ni wnes i holleraenodd rhaid i'n cwygwlaf ywilliadau ac bod oes cael bod rent Mail, aclaswn hl endorsell ddadol i rhan o eich cyfrifol yn unig o fits i gyfliesogu yn syrraed canfro研 i hyn. Rhyw fan hynny'n risw. I expect the unexpected, that's one of the things that I say a lot of the time. Like that, yeah. Yeah, in the early days and I know I've spoke about it before, I used to try and plan the session and I suppose you know maybe I shouldn't own up to this but I might have even steered them towards what I had planned for the session in the early days. Whereas now I think I'm a bit more confident that whatever comes up I just trust the process. Well that's marvellous and I was very similar to you. I think a lot of people in the early days when I started seeing clients in 1985 was the first client certainly for a long time and you know I could sort of honestly plan it but I could see myself sort of moving there be a certain direction and when I took my exam my CTA exam my I was in the TA world a lot then and I became a clinical transactionalist I think about 1989 but I remember doing I put another way planning because in the TA world you have to get tapes and you take these tapes from normal board they're there and they listen to your three minutes or whatever it is ask you loads of questions and hope for you are okay with them and then you pass and become a clinical transactionalist way back in the day. I think it was 88 to 89 but I do remember getting those tapes and because I wanted things to happen in the tape so that I could say what I was doing in the most wonderful way I did sort of I did sort of plan them in my head if not reality so I do know what you mean. I think as time went on I sort of yeah just really went to saw everything as grist to the mill. Yeah but that comes with experience. 100% yeah yeah. I supervise it to people who've just started off their career in placements and they know long they they're nowhere I mean they just nowhere near that idea it's a bit more like what you're saying really it's a bit like we've got a plan which is working relationship building up a therapeutic rapport doing a bit of you know script analysis we're lucky maybe looking at how the past effects are present and integrating new decisions and that's the sort of plan they have in their heads yeah yeah so not until quite a lot of clinical hours experience I think we changed that. Yeah and quite a lot it is quite a lot of clinical hours that you need before you can kind of take your foot off the gas and just trust that yeah every session there's these little nuggets there's little gems in there. Yeah and you know one of the biggest I started I mean again this one comes with experience but one of the biggest well biggest well word but but occurrences I'd like to talk about is what often is called in transaction analysis and I don't know about other disciplines but the doorknob transaction. Oh we love a doorknob transaction. It means you know most people have 55 minutes or 50 minute hours so let's say it's 50 minutes and on the 48th minute or the 49th minute let's put it in dramatic terms the or even the last transaction before the 50 minute comes up they something they the client says something really dramatic like I don't know I feel like it to myself and I think maybe today is the day or something really dramatic yeah and that's that's called the doorknob transaction they say right at the last minute to to actually I think not only get you know be dramatic but also to I think it's to warn the therapist of some unconscious processes that might be happening and of course the beginning naive therapist I'd say naive in a very gentle way they they can go into quick term or about that yeah or the last minute they say oh actually I forgot to say actually I've been having an affair for the last 15 years but we'll come back to that next session. Yeah you know those sorts of things that doorknob transaction which is really so so not in the script it can throw a therapist very easily. Yeah and I can remember thinking you know and taking that to supervision well what what do you do yeah if somebody comes out with something dramatic like that and you've literally got another client that's waiting outside what do you do in that situation and what did the supervisor say back to you Jackie. Well they said that the session needs to end you know there's boundaries that need to be put in place and obviously it's a difficult situation but the you know permission protection and potency and all that sort of stuff they knew when the session was going to end. That's right. Well certainly it is if you if you haven't got that much experience because like like you most therapists might go into turmoil and they will take it to supervision. Yeah but your response in the supervised gap gave back is the correct one so you say something like wow that's something really interesting please hold that put it into the back burner or your pressure cooker and we'll start with that next week. Yeah that's the thing when you say that to them do you bring it up at the beginning of the next session? Yes. Right good because that's what I tend to do. It's like you're not doing that to me again at 49 minutes. Several reasons several reasons I think it's really important because the client might be saying it to hundreds of reasons to test you to be dramatic but also of course in the desire that the next session uh we won't be thrown off track again we'll go back to that. Yeah. In the terms of continuity predictability holding the space I could give a few more reasons the therapist is really has to remember to go back to that movement away from script to go back to that last transaction and say I know a lot of things might have happened but we must start where we left off. Yeah. I know you said that as the last transaction so it must be really important that you've got something you want me to hear. Yeah totally and you know without making it I don't want to make light of it at all but that example that you gave at the beginning I would like to think that you know that with the transactional analysis the escape hatches have been looked at and that you know that there are sort of things put in place if a client does say that they don't want to be here anymore. Yeah so if they said that last transaction I would say something like I hear this is a really important thing you said can you put that into back boiler burner till next week when we can explore this and tend to want to say yes if they say no then I might say well how about we have an emergency session in two days time. Yeah I think that's that's what I would offer is an assessment you know an intermediate session and then leaving it in a week yeah. I did definitely address the safeguarding issue don't get me wrong but what I wouldn't do is go over five six seven eight ten fifteen because we get to the end of the 15th minute over time if we did and and maybe there'll be another doldog transaction so we need to keep our boundary and if we need an emergency session okay we'll book one in. Yeah and I think boundaries within the therapy I know we've touched on them before but I do think they're really important and sometimes in therapy we are dealing with the child and the child will always try to push boundaries. Yeah I mean I mean ten to one we're nearly always dealing with the younger self and the younger self according to the developmental level of the trauma will push boundaries. Yeah yeah so it is our job to to let them push against them but be kind of steadfast in what they are. Yeah absolutely and I think what I'm talking about here in doldog transactions will happen to therapists. Yeah there's not a doubt about that. Yeah it's just that therapists needs know how to handle it and if they you know if it's the first time it's happened to them take into supervision. Yeah 100% yeah because it is it is daunting when when they do that. It can certainly be really daunting really sort of daunting and of course if it's very dramatic or more dramatic and especially if it's a safeguarding issue I think it's really important that the therapist if there's a doubt on the client not being able to backburner is to offer them an emergency session if they can. Yeah and I would suggest the therapist makes room for that. Yes yeah yeah the other thing that happened to me in the early days as well was a client disappearing not showing up and you know not answering emails. So and that was unexpected for you didn't expect it. Yeah no it wasn't it wasn't sort of like when you look back at the previous sessions or looked at the work that this client has been doing nothing was sort of like in the radar for you to to you know for some to expect somebody to not come back like that. Yeah no not at all. What did you do in that at Cohen's you're talking to me about. Well again I took it to supervision and I think I text them first just to check in and make sure that they were okay and there was no response and then I sent them two emails like spaced a week apart and I never got a response from them. So what did you do? Not a lot that I could do. Well I mean what you can do is close for yourself. Yeah I think making a closure is important for the therapist as well as for the client. Once you've done all the safeguarding issues you can do all the things you just started to tell me that you did then I always recommend to people in that situation clients and therapists in that situation is to take some control and make a closure for themselves and maybe send a further email or text or email I'll probably say and say you know I've been trying to get hold of you not you're not honest XXX and I'm sure you'll take your own path in life or whatever it would ever be wanted to say and I wish you well. So it's almost like you're taking the oses in terms of a closure and the termination. Yeah I think I'll probably put something like that in the last one that I did send them saying you know that if you need to get back in touch in the future feel free and you know I hope everything works out okay type of thing yeah. Yeah and I've had that by the way just what you've just talked about quite a few times another unexpected process if you'd like in psychotherapy is when and I don't even have this the client runs out of the door and doesn't come back or the client runs out of the door and goes in my case just think of somebody who went into another room in the institute that we're in or they suddenly just disappear in the building or any of those situations where the script or whatever you're working on has had such a lot of discomfort for the person that they've had to get away you know moved into that flight process so that's what I'm expecting and I think that's happened a few times for me and certainly when it first happened I thought oh what should I do here and I was always I did take the soup because in this case it has happened I was always trained that if somebody is sort of running out for you or trying to get away now I've got a big therapy room you say in a sort of controlling transaction controlling parent transaction would you please come back here you know you go to a sort of place where you're setting a boundary through the positive controlling parent and I would say it's a demand but or command but you say come back here we'll do with it now yeah or something like that where you might where you're stepping up I mean I remember in my last three months of working that that happened with someone and I said look we can deal with this come back here it's important you do not go outside in this particular scared place or in or whatever it is come back in we'll talk about this but you need to do it from a directive positive controlling place yeah now earlier in my clinical career I've had when people gone out they got into another room now if it's group psychotherapy I would send probably one of the group to look for them while I stay with the rest of the group and then we get a contract by when they're going to come back yeah disappeared altogether I do all the safeguarding issues so sometimes when you are working with somebody and they there's a you know fear flight response sort of triggered that can happen yeah I've had them go to the loo and be there for quite a long time but they've never actually left the building if that makes sense yeah they've left the building I've got you've got to do safeguarding yeah but it's more often they've gone into another room group psychotherapy because if it's just myself I will go and find where they are yeah and see that they're not harming themselves and then get you know some contracting about you know we'll continue this session and then we deal with that that's that's an unexpected unexpected thing I was thinking about yeah I've had many unexpected things in group psychotherapy particularly a couple of psychotherapy particularly when you're working with a couple then one person says I've got something to say and then they come out with the fact they have been having an affair for 30 years or something and I didn't expect that and the other person didn't expect that there's many many things around clinical content which are often being surprised about which you know to be fair it doesn't surprise me that you can throw all these in there because you've been practicing for a very long time so the more length of time you're practicing the more likely you are to be opened up to these weird and wonderful happenings within the therapy room yeah yeah definitely and and the big thing I want to say here is mostly these types of occurrences happen when you're dealing with the younger part of the person itself in other words when they're often regressed and at a younger age yeah and that's when they will move out of script that's when they may reenact the trauma that's when they may go into a fear and flight response and from that place you need to really make sure that they're okay and don't allow them let's say don't allow them but try and assess where assess and make sure they're in their adult eager state in TA terms before they leave the building yeah because they might have to they might have a powerful car outside yeah and I learned that many many many many many years ago I'm talking about 30 odd years ago and I was in training I remember one of the first group sessions I started to work with groups and what I thought this group had gone well I thought that there with the person was doing a piece of work of their inner self I thought they were in their adult and that's a hard one to judge in a way I mean say it very straightforwardly and there's a transactionalist there are things that you can rely on observationally to give you some clues there in an adult so I thought the person was 27 years of age I didn't think they were you know stuck back in the age of I think 15 we were working with because of all the so I thought adult observational skills so we ended the session they went off anyway the next week when they all came back the woman said to me you know I was particularly annoyed with you because you know I needed to stay the next five minutes I sent her to grab myself because I was going to be dry I was going to be driving a car but I felt so young I couldn't drive enough to call my husband to come and fetch me wow and I I was very young as a therapist I've been running groups I think at groups for about four or five months and I thought they were an adult well to be first she did act in an adult manner if she called her husband to come and pick her up so be fair yes yeah you managed to get to adults yes yeah um I think it was also a plea for being special and that I needed to take care more and it's a very weird a very real example because as a transactionalist we were really trained as much as we can to go out of our way to make sure that a person doesn't leave in a regressed state yeah and one of the things that I didn't do and I could have done was that to have asked the person yes yeah it sounds a simple thing yeah I remember I didn't do it so I've learned a lot of things through my mistakes as I've gone along um but that's a really big one for the listeners I think to as much as we can make sure they're in their adults they're in you know the age-appropriate state that they are yeah even ask them if you think they've stuck in a younger place yeah 100% agree with that I have had to you know when when a client's I've had a few clients that have had a panic attack and you know we've kind of ended the session early so to speak and I've just spent the last 20 minutes grounding them and when you said earlier on about being in your controlling parent type I was really firm with them to get them back again yeah that's a good I mean I always remember an Australian therapist who's a very dear friend of mine that I've lost contact with her now she had this concept about the firm parent which was called controlling parent but I like the word of firm parent because I think it's more somehow it sums up a much more I don't think friendly sentence than controlling parent because people can sometimes think that's quite negative but I like the idea of a positive firm parent yeah I think I surprised myself how firm I actually was in that moment when I needed to be because anybody that knows me knows I'm not very firm I'm not I don't like confrontation and it felt like I was literally squaring up and saying you know enough now you need to stop you need to slow down you need to breathe and I was literally taking it step by step good for you just wouldn't let it go off again you know also things I mean I could trip all these you can see the way I'm talking there's so many examples often if clients are going to enact things out in the favour session it's usually over things like endings money power dynamics money's a favourite one yeah and I've learned I learned eventually I don't know how long it took me to ask people to pay before the session and I remember when I hadn't got that um that policy so people were allowed to pay after the session and I remember uh someone who was working actually I can't remember what he was working on but we got to the end of the session we ended and everything and and he wrote the checkout scumpled it up and threw it to me really surprised though it's almost like he'd moved eager states from this sort of um I don't know what I don't I don't think it was an hour but when he moved he went to child obviously and he threw this this check and stormed out um but the biggest thing to do is to start with that next week don't not let it go that this collection yeah because it's actually like an attack on yourself yes yeah you know which really is something to do with his history and it turned out to be a cause uh moneymen's are the things for him that are associated with the father you know so there was a lot in it but the golden rule with all these things is don't go on in the therapy you need to always come back to the process yeah I I agree with that entirely because it for me if I didn't it would be a big fat elephant in the room it would always be there unless we brought it back in and discussed it and put it to bed so to speak that's fine here's another one for you and please stop me because I could go on and on with it ever being another one because I spent 36 years as a group psychotherapist and quite a lot of the processes I'm talking about I realised as I speak happening groups but one of my rules or frameworks in a group and this happened from this experience was that because people often in child eager state that if they start a relationship up with each other one person will need to leave that psychotherapy group and go into another psychotherapy group that I run and I used to run two or three a week but that rule only came out of I was really this is another expected process I was running eight people in a group and just about to start it and the person put their hand up and said I've got something to announce and then there announced they were having sex and with someone in the group now I hadn't got that in so out of that unexpected process came a much more protective rule and because when people are in therapy they're often in their child eager state and they often then meet from the traumatic child eager state and nine times out of ten I want to say ten times out of ten because I don't know people who've you know met from in groups and gone into relationships and things like that but many of the times it's a disaster for script enactment in other words they are enacting out their script yeah but if they're both in the group they're both doing it it's bad enough when one's doing it but if they're both doing it yeah yeah so there's an unexpected thing that you've seen it all see I've never done groups I've done couples but I stop it too I've done families like mum dad and children but I've never done group therapy that is like putting out fires I would imagine I love I love someone said to me the other day you know did you enjoy your clinical career I mean I still see supervision and I still do the assessments but I've stopped seeing people in the division groups and I think of all the things I've done I would probably say I love my career as a group psychotherapist and I think it's because why would that be I think because there's so much dynamics in the group yeah I saw so much transformation in groups I saw so much vicarious healing one of the saddest things for me Jackie is you know well you know 85 I started in the late 80s bigger than the 90s there were many many TA therapists around groups 2022 can you find a TA group therapist not very easily I doubt it yeah he's probably the only one that I know of I don't know I'm not sure why the sort of interest in group psychotherapy has declined over the last 35 years but certainly that is the case but I loved my time as a and it wasn't till I was 64 65 that I went down from running two or three groups a week and then my last four or five years I went down to one group a week but at my height in the 50s I was running four or five a week flipping egg yeah take me at off to you like I said I'll stop at couples couples yeah I've had some unexpected processes in couples yes yes there have been some it's yes not all relationships end well when people come to couples you learn so much from it I mean I again another one I learned when I started seeing couples and I learned it from a mistake so when I call it a mistake but actually as I said at the beginning of this podcast it's all grist of the mill yeah but anyway at the time it seemed like a big mistake and I got myself sort of caught caught up in catch 22 so I've seen this couple and you know this is beginning of my couple's life really but I've seen this couple and we decided that I see four sessions with the why four sessions with the husband and then I come back again yeah okay fine that sounds good doesn't it but what I didn't do was say well we'll make it an open contract so that means that if things get shared you know with you when we come back together you know we're not going to go through everything but we we can leave it open yeah right I didn't do that so what happens then of course uh and I think it was the female said to me well actually you know I've been having an affair for 20 odd years but I'm trapped well I felt I was trapped at that time because I hadn't got an open contract yeah oh crafty I ended up saying look you know because she's she said well it's very confidential you can't tell Jim it's not it wasn't Jim I've made up a name yeah but I I think I said at the time well I feel quite trapped here can we change that and I think we were I was able to talk my way into a new contract but these unexpected things can suddenly just occur you know yeah I think human beings are slippery creatures script off yeah yes and of course they're playing it out I mean I wonder if you've ever had this so I was seeing a client um I don't know four five six seven right six maybe four five sessions and then I got a phone call from another person this is years ago and I started seeing her and it just I thought I've seen this person before I felt I had anyway anyway on the fifth session she suddenly said she was she was you know a sister of the person I was seeing individually so suddenly I had two sisters nightmare nightmare because the unethicality of that yeah is that you don't work with members of the same family yeah but but of course the top then is both of them or one of them will feel abandoned and rejected by me so what do I do I went in the end took supervision and his advice was to go with contractually you know the person that came latest if you'd like would have to be the one that left yeah I've not actually been in that situation but I have had clients ask if I can see another family member and get quite put out when I say no yeah well that's they do get put out yeah but it's a very strong ethical code in nearly all therapeutic disciplines that you don't work with members of the same family yeah and even let me run this one by you because I'd like your opinion on it is if I finished seeing with sisters and if I finished seeing the one sister as in you know they haven't been back for a while and then the other sister comes I couldn't go then back and see that original sister no so that time yes yeah yeah there's a big gap in time that would be right yeah but those are the sort of things that I say that you know that's one of the reasons why I can't because if you have a break you wouldn't be able to come back and see me and you know you're my priority you are my client now so therefore I wouldn't take on anybody else in your family or close circle yeah that's right what about unexpected processes in the environment so I remember I was working as a group again see they all come from a group suddenly I'm in the institute and the fire alarm goes off and it turned out that we were locked in wow I forgot to put my card out so the therapist upstairs thought no one was in so they went out locked the door put the fire alarm off I was still in the building and off goes the alarm what do you do about that then that's an unexpected process when there's an actual threat to the environment so as I say it's august of the mill there was another door we could get out of but we dealt off the back of that with things that do happen unexpectedly to security and safety and we were dealing with safety and security and it took many I think of a couple of crimes in that we could use that that's another one I've had been again a group where I've been doing some work and two people rushed in the moon because they thought that what was it about I can't remember what it was about but they didn't know there was a group so there's a threat to the environment and the boundaries and what happens there nearly was somebody who's been sexually abused for example and then suddenly you can use it that the trick to this is you can use that once you've sorted it out everything else everybody's all right you can go back and say well what happened there yeah you know is there any link to your childhood when there was such an invasion of your psychological spirit or whatever you like yeah yeah and I agree with what you said right at the beginning of this that you know we all in the early days we can't get everything right all of the time but it's about putting things in place and learning from the experience that you know you know we have to learn by our experiences I mean we can we can actually learn from most of the mistakes we can recover most things with our clients in fact some of the most significant healing has come from ruptures in the mistakes if you want to use that work that I've made yeah and for me rather than the mistake or you know the unexpected thing that happens I think the therapeutic relationship is built on what comes next and how you move on from that that builds trust again with the client yeah yeah that's 100% and it's it's these learnings that made me the robust therapist that became to the end at the end honestly there was nothing really well I felt I could deal with most things because I saw it as all grist to the mill yeah it's a really good phrase to use yeah to get to that place though you are correct you said it earlier it takes quite a lot of experience it does I went when you know when you first said to me in training that you know that you're new to this and it's going to take you a long time I didn't realise how long the long time was but it is experience comes over time it's not anything you can learn it's it's time it is time yeah and and uh I think I probably thought the same as you that it wouldn't take such such a long time for me to feel that I could be that robust and seasoned psychotherapist that I came but it was to experiences in the therapeutic processes individually and in a group that made me the therapist I was and became I know you're not practicing now so until the next episode Bob where we're going to be looking at the search for meaning in therapy yeah one thing that I want to say thank you for allowing me to go on in this podcast I feel I've but I feel I've just gone on but I think you know I don't get much chances perhaps I don't do enough for myself to reflect on my all the wonderful clinical moments I've had I don't think any of your wanderings don't have something in them that we can all draw from Bob oh thank you for those but I will let you wander as much as you want to meander I was always known for meandering by the way you were the clinician and than a teacher and train I wasn't a bad trainer but I was known for meandering you were known for meandering 100% and I loved your meandering no but it's true you know you you've got so much to offer and one of the ways that you can do that is by pulling on your experience and giving examples of each one of these things yes I think that's true I do too so until the next time Bob bye bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode