 Yeah, so to apply research. I'm kind of excited about that website that I discovered probably from a Facebook ad or something like that Yeah, it could be on Facebook. We haven't even advertised it. Well, we've I mean not with ads anyway We've we've put up stuff and and we put up posts and and we're probably more so on Twitter than Than on Facebook. But yeah, that's cool that you Is that was that where you kind of caught on to on to us? I don't remember exactly where it was it could have been on Twitter You know just browsing through a feed and I saw it I'm I'm interested in research and I'm the president of the research club at my school So anything that says research. I'm like, oh, yeah, what is this? So how why did you start then? What's the goal with the website? Oh, that's a good question and depends if you want the short or the long answer But I'll try to give you a brief summary. Oh, it basically all came from I've been practicing as a chiropractor now for five years and It didn't take me very long after graduating that I kind of realized well I graduated with an expectation of okay I've done five years of university and I'm all set now and I'm gonna walk into a busy clinic and everything's gonna be like The table is gonna be set for me. And then I realized there are all these Things related to running a practice and be practicing as a chiropractor and as a clinician that University doesn't really prepare you for like we're well-trained in the basic sciences and in diagnostics and in patient management to a certain degree, but there's all this stuff around and You also have there's all these other factors that you need to Need to relate to in in society that university doesn't offer any training in at least not where I studied So I quickly realized okay, there's a lot of stuff I need to to get on to here and my way of going about it was really looking into research for answers And it didn't really take me that long until I realized But hey, there's a lot of this stuff that you know people charge you an arm and a leg to to go to We can course to learn this stuff But if you just look for it in the research, it's a lot of it is out there So you can you can acquire a lot of that Knowledge and those skills by just reading the research And that's really Where it started off from and then I met up with you again. Yeah, who I started apply research Together with and he was kind of in the same in the same spot. He had a degree in physiotherapy from before So we clicked pretty much instantly and and it all just went from there And then yeah, is you're gonna PT or is he also a Cairo? He's both he he graduated as a physiotherapist and then he went into chiropractic school and did five years So he's now A chiropractor as well and you're a chiropractor and now you're currently in medical school as well. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. Wow. Okay. Can you give an example maybe of a a patient encounter that Made you really feel like oh my gosh, I don't have all the tools that I need from school There's something more that I need to learn Oh, that's a good question. Um Well, I think it's I can't really think of a perfect example at the moment, but I more so than Well, one aspect of it is patient management. How am I best gonna Gonna manage this patient could be say a dissipation That I examined and I thought hey this this person might be in need of some vestibular rehabilitation to aid with with their condition Along with manual therapy and whatever so And then I kind of have a at that point. I had an idea about vestibular rehabilitation and what it was, but I probably wasn't that Um, oh, what's the word I'm looking for you have to excuse my English been about five years since I last spent it Uh, right Um, probably wasn't that confident Um in that field of rehabilitation So I would look up that and and try to find ways of managing my patients So that's one that was one part of it. Just uh straight up. How am I gonna Treat this patient then there's also the all this other stuff other aspects of patient management that doesn't necessarily have to do with hands-on uh therapeutic interventions or rehabilitation, but Communication is such a big part uh of Well, basically if you're gonna if you're gonna achieve Anything with your patients you need to be able to interact with them Uh, both in terms of getting uh compliance and in terms of making them feel that they get what they Wanted a lot of it has to do with how you interact with them. It's not just what you do with them with your hands So those are probably two of the big ones and then also kind of how to go about speak into medical doctors professions in the area try to establish a working relationship with other healthcare practitioners Uh, I also find that reading research and knowing a little bit about their Feel the work and how they How they speak and communicate and what terminology they use helps a lot Yeah, I I can totally see how that uh How you feel a bit limited in in your knowledge. I mean, I'm coming to the end of school right now and in clinic and I have experiences where I examine I kind of diagnose and then I know What to how to treat initially But then what then how do I over time? You know really help this patient get back to full health and get back into activity and we've got the general knowledge of oh an acute thing is Two weeks, but the more chronic is six weeks, but really patients have so many questions Yeah, as well as how I interact with them verbally and whether it's showing confidence even if I'm not completely confident or giving them the um The approval in a way to go about their lives and not have the fear of getting re-injured Yeah, and and speaking with other professionals and being on the same page my girlfriend is an md and there's As we chat she's very supportive, but she also Leads me to understand. Oh my gosh. There's some things. I don't understand as much as I thought I did You know, I thought my training And the scope of practice that we're allowed in the state gives me enough to actually treat That broadly, but it there's so much. I still don't know Yeah, so I love that you guys are trying to fill that gap. I came across Your e-book your six steps to kick off your clinical career Yeah, and I read through this the other night and yeah, it was there were so many great pieces of wisdom How did you and you're gonna come up with this e-book? Um, that was probably one of the first things that I started working on one once we decided, okay We're gonna make this website applyresearch.com and So but what are we going to put on it? Uh, and I guess that e-book isn't really as you probably noticed it's not really It's pretty much based on experience So it's kind of a weird thing to introduce us the first thing you get when you When you register for apply research but It's basically just a compilation of a lot of the experiences that I made throughout those first couple years and and how I kind of went about Solving those issues and I guess we kind of asked ourselves, okay, if we could go back A couple years in time and knowing what we know now what we have done differently And then we put that into the that was kind of the Where we started from and then That e-book was the result Yeah, there are a lot of gems of wisdom in here. You talk about how to get $10,000 worth of knowledge for free Yeah, I'm always battling with myself about going to seminars because there's so many great things to learn, but they're incredibly expensive Yeah, so what's your recommendation for getting more knowledge without spending all the money? Well, since you're asking I'd say for everyone to have a look at our webpage Uh for starters, but I would say uh read research. That would be my number one go to Uh advice and basically what people don't realize When we're students, we we don't realize how valuable all that information that we have access to is And you only realize once you graduate and your university cuts you off So that you can't access it anymore and you get on pub med and you see click here for the And then it says that'll cost you $40 40 bucks um So, yeah, that would be my number one thing just brush up on your methodology and how to Read and and analyze research and start reading and it's not something that comes to you Immediately you need to work on it and then it's it's a skill like everything else But you'll learn so much from it. I have anyway that recommendation made me feel better because I have a huge collection of research articles But I rarely have the time to read them And I thought what am I doing wasting my time downloading all of this But then I read that book. I was like, oh, this is excellent When I don't have access I've got 400 articles that I have to read so that'll be great um And you mentioned a couple ideas of how to network and how to get your name out there um Let's see in in a couple of mistakes to avoid while you're in school and also while you are building up your practice So if you had some Maybe one or two pieces of advice for students What would be the other? key pieces advice to give them while they're finishing up school I would say If you can combine having an open mind About the stuff you come across but at the same time maintain a critical Uh inquiring mind At the same time, then I think you're you're starting off in the in the right direction from the get-go I would say go out and expose yourself To all the stuff you can see as many do technique courses and seminars as far as you can afford them, but Just make sure that you're Question everything you learn question everything anyone says no matter how Qualified they are question everything I say um and question Your own thinking and reasoning because we're all biased In in our assumptions and in our conclusions and experiences uh, and if you can if you can kind of get that concept under your skin and And apply that as you go along then you'll I think you'll quickly learn What knowledge and information to keep and apply and what to to discard because there's a lot of good stuff out there Uh, and but unfortunately there's also a lot of stuff that probably isn't as good as it should be Now you're practicing in norway, but you graduated from rmit in sydney australia Macquarie, I'm sorry. Macquarie in sydney. Um, did macquarie offer a wide variety of Technique seminars and added Skills that you could acquire while you're in school I'd say so. I would say we had a fair a fair variety of Our practical skills or techniques in university. We had diversified techniques gone stead techniques and some drop piece techniques and and also a fair bit of rehabilitation um In university setting and then there was also A lot of different technique courses that would be run outside of university and As well. So there was a good opportunity to be exposed to a lot of a lot of stuff now coming from the um Maybe I'd say the evidence based mindset the research mindset that you have But also trying to be open to these technique systems, which many of them don't have a lot of You know randomized controlled trials and literature to back them up How do you approach that to be critical but also to be mindful and take from it what you can use? You mean in terms of looking at a technique and and then deciding, okay, am I going to use this or not? Yeah, and even being Open-minded when you go in maybe you're going into a seminar of You know something that whether it's applied kinesiology or other cervical Uh, it they can be fairly dogmatic. Yeah, and so I struggle to go into those types of meetings or workshops And entrap that bias from the beginning And just be open-minded to see what they have to say and learn from it and sometimes I'm surprised. Yeah That's absolutely A good it's a difficult It's a difficult thing to do. I think so it is I say be open and be critical at the same time, but it's not necessarily that easy, but I think there's kind of there are two things you need you kind of need to distinguish between When looking at technique courses in my experience and and one thing is Okay, what are they doing? And then the other thing is okay Why are they doing it and I think with a lot of As my experience and my personal opinion, but I think a lot of techniques can Help a lot of patients, but maybe not always For the reason that the technique system claims Uh, and I don't think we at this point knows how all our technique works But I think there's a good bunch of literature that's starting to kind of Explain to us that Manual interventions. Yes, they do work But maybe not in the in the way that we thought or have been thinking for the last hundred 50 20 10 years So don't discard everything just because there aren't necessarily randomized controlled trials for it, but just have Be a bit cautious about the explanation that you give That would that's kind of how I Approach that question That's great. So coming back to apply research When when a chiropractor or a student signs up on your website What do they receive? What types of materials and information can they get? For now, uh, what you get when you register which is free by the way So it's not a registration as such you just put in your email And then you're on an email list and we email you this this stuff So the first thing you get instantly is the e-book that you mentioned Where we kind of put in All the All the mistakes that we did and that we would have done differently if we could go back and change it Um, and then there's also a six step e-course, which is basically a bunch of articles that Kind of tries and outline How you can go about Building a practice and a career I guess Using The best knowledge from research to your advantage So basically how to and a lot of it has to do with I guess you can divide it into treating your patients getting your diagnosed diagnosis, right Interacting with the patient as well as possibly and also interacting with the with the medical healthcare system that you need to operate within and how to use research to To do that as efficiently as possible. I guess that's the gist of it I'm looking at the the e-course right now and the first one Answers the question. Is there a future for me in musculoskeletal care, which I think We all are wondering, you know, where what is the future of chiropractic? um Are we going to become more mainstream with the medical profession or are we going to establish ourselves as Subluxation specialists that detect incorrect subluxation um And then the let's see. I think it's the third one here talks about the hidden benefits of an evidence-based Practice seven ways that evidence-based practice will benefit you So interesting stuff and these are pretty short reads They're not I mean it's not going to take you an hour to get through it So I highly recommend people go to apply research And and sign up for it and the e-book again for students is wonderful Glad to hear you enjoyed it And you graduated five years ago. You've been practicing your teaching at university Um, what made you decide to go back to medical school? That's a good question, Nathan. Um, I'll give you the short answer. Um, one part of it was basically that I Uh, we spoke briefly or you mentioned that you have an interest in in exercise science And and I kind of have that have that bit too. I come from sports and so I guess there's just I have a genuine interest in the human body and physiology and There's stuff that I'm keen to learn that's kind of outside of the scope of What I would call chiropractic Uh, so that that's probably the biggest reason why why I went back to To university it certainly wasn't for the money Um, because uh, it takes a lot of work being a full-time student and and running a practice Um, so that's that's probably the biggest reason I'd say Um, just an insatiable desire to learn more Yeah, and then there's also the other factor in it is that I don't really like to I wish it was I wish it wasn't like that But I also think there's at the moment. It's easier. You have more options as a medical doctor unfortunately in terms of At least back here in terms of how you want to work Uh, or what you want to do and it's Say for instance, if you don't even want to work in clinic, but uh work in other areas of healthcare or Um in society it's easier to find those jobs with an md degree Than with a chiropractic degree. Although I think I think uh that we're going in the right direction In In that sense speaking for chiropractic as well What is the scope of practice like in norway? Well back here we're pretty much we're Very well integrated in the public health care system. I'd say So we're basically car factors are recognized as primary care practitioner for musculoskeletal disorders So it's pretty much Because because we have these benefits As such there's also the responsibility that we're supposed to I guess kind of limit our practice to musculoskeletal Stuff And then we get the we have the right to To write sick leave for patients. We can refer patients directly to to imaging And also refer directly to medical specialists if we have the need and it's also Reimbursed by the not fully but there's some reimbursement from the public healthcare system I'm looking on my on exploring chiropractic dot com I have a map where i've mapped out all of the chiropractic schools throughout the world And I notice there isn't currently a school in norway. No, that's correct That's something that's been the the kind of the the big thing that the norwegian chiropractic association has been working with for the last 15 years and They're closer than ever to achieving it and we actually at the moment The university of aslo, which also has the The medical education in aslo Which i'm attending They have pretty much said that we are interested in running a chiropractic Program, so it's basically all up to the politicians now to To cuff up the funding So if that goes through then we'll have a then we'll have a chiropractic program integrated within the medical faculty But at the moment no no school yet that'll be excellent and i'm imagining like many of the other european countries that That's that program would be pretty closely integrated with the medical where you would do the first few years together with medical students And then specialize for the last few years in chiropractic Absolutely, I don't know if you've looked into danmark and uh odense yet But they're if it's gonna happen. They're gonna build it on that model. So yeah for I think Might not be completely the same, but at least over there. It's three years in Of medical basic science and then separated after the third year Yeah, I love that model and you get to learn all those basic sciences together with The people that will be your peers that you'll be referring patients back and forth I think it's wonderful Well martin i've just got a few more questions, uh kind about you to wrap things up Um, I'd like to know, uh, what has been the best time for you in practice? I Would have to say those patients that come in and Really struggle like they have had pains and aches for or problems doesn't even have to be pain, but you know those I guess those are the ones that really really Make you go home and feel like you made a difference when they've had a problem for a long time and They come to you and and you're able to To actually address that problem, especially if they've seen a lot of practitioners from Whatever profession before and then When you can actually make that difference that makes A really impact on their lives That's for me the the big thing that Makes everything worth it sometimes those patients Uh Surprised me and shocked me in that if they get to if they get better quickly Yeah, it almost makes me feel like oh my gosh, what did I do? Yeah, yeah, absolutely because sometimes you it's like that you're surprised How little it took you just had to do the right things Yeah, and then all the times there's There's definitely patients where you really need to work and where you're Banging your head into a wall and but then all of a sudden you have a breakthrough after a while and and yeah Do you have a favorite book or resource that you like to go to? Um to learn more to stay on top of the chiropractic profession Oh, that's a good one to be honest. I haven't been reading books since I left uni so pretty Pretty much been just been diving into research papers Do you have a favorite journal or a favorite database that you go to to pull up? There's a few that I that I keep track of frequently spine spine journal is one of them Chiropractic and manual therapies. It's a good open access chiropractic oriented journal Manual therapy. It's really a physiotherapy journal, but it has some really good stuff on And it's very relevant for what we do as well European spine journal that's it's a surgical one really but there's also Every once in a while there's some good stuff that we should be reading in there as well Those are some good ones to to start off with Probably forgotten heaps, but I'd say those for starters Do you have some type of tool that helps you organize all your papers? Do you print them out and just file them away or do you have a? No, I have a tool. Let's look it up. It's called papers. Oh, I use papers as well Yeah, yeah, then you know what it's like. It's pretty much It's pretty much Itunes for papers, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, and they've got um The mac ios they've got a windows version. I think they may even have just come out with linux for any Supergeeks that use that. Yeah Very similar to mendalay, which is another good one. Yeah, but yeah papers is mine of choice as well Yeah, that's what I've got. Yeah, I Basically signed up for that as a student and I'm just stuck with it. Yeah wonderful, um What recommendation Would you give to students? For choosing the school that they go to Well, I would say I would I would definitely recommend doing what what you told me you've been doing to to ask around Speak to definitely speak to students in the different schools also speak to speak to Current chiropractors or people that have graduated from a different school But just keep in mind they can quite be they can quite often be quite biased. That's my experience anyway they always recommend their own schools and But yeah, ask around gather as much information as possible and then and then kind of make up your mind about Why am I doing this and And then I think you'll be able to pick a good school for you from there If you were to do it all over again, uh, which school do you think you would choose right now? Oh Well, if I could just go anywhere and not think about distances and And in the world I thought I had a really good education in in Australia to be honest Uh, it was a good blend of uh, clinical skills and and solid Basic sciences and and also research methodology. So I thought that was a really good mix um so that Well, that school doesn't that program doesn't exist anymore, but To be honest, I kind of hesitate to answer that question But just because I don't really know that much about the the programs over in in the states, for instance Um, or in canada. I'm sure there's some great ones in canada Uh, I'm sure the recent estates as well but Um, how's to go in europe? I would have probably gone to danmark just because But I might be biased because i'm doing medicine now, right? Do you think you might have uh, If you started all over would you have done medicine first without going to chiropractic route? I've thought about that, uh, and You know what the answer is no I when I When I first started doing chiropractic doing medicine didn't even cross my mind uh, and I also think that knowing what I've known now and uh, having the experience that I've had from Chiropractic school and from practicing as a chiropractor for five years Uh, if there's one thing I'm certain of it's that that is going to make me that much of a better clinician A medical doctor eventually than if I just gone straight into medical school So I I wouldn't have been without that experience ever Do you find that there's a big difference between your experience in chiropractic and now medical school with The the challenge the difficulty level of the courses the amount of information you have to learn No, not really. That's a pretty quick. No, uh, I'd say the amount of work is about the same I'm a little bit biased now because I have I have all this stuff from chiropractic Which I'm not pretty much doing again in medicine or a lot of it overlaps So I guess that kind of makes probably makes the program now easier for me than it would have been initially But I would say the amount of work is about the same the basic sciences are the same So I would say chiropractic students doesn't have anything to to be ashamed of compared to medical student in terms of workload Well, what is your vision your hope for chiropractic in the next 10 years? Oh, I would like to see Chiropractic uh being a little bit Less certain about the stuff that is so uncertain and I think that would Make it a lot easier to For me, it's kind of a big thing to to get accepted by not just the medical profession But but society and the healthcare system that you're working within we I Cannot see the the profession surviving and flourishing without Somehow fitting into the society That we're in and to do that I thought also I think you need to be a part of the other Of the healthcare system And to do that. I think we need to be able to communicate what we're doing and why we're doing it To other professions as well and to and to governments and politicians and So if anything, I would like to see chiropractic be able to Communicate better with the rest of society, I'd say wonderful Martin, thanks for sharing about Apply research and your experience as a chiropractor in Norway. Where can students learn more and follow you online? If you want to follow us and read more about the stuff that we've been talking about today, Nathan You can go to applyresearch.com And just have a look around there and you'll just take it from there You guys have a presence on facebook and twitter as well. Absolutely We're on twitter and we're on facebook if you just search for apply research, you'll we should pop up You