 Right This is the secret on the record council cabal meeting that is being videotaped Open Do we have a plan for this meeting Brian I believe the answer is no is that Well technically we have a plan. It's just not a very good Would you like to relay the not very good plan? Because all of you chose to come to this meeting. We will not be doing open mic stand-up So this is the part of the meeting where you have to ask questions Because you chose to come We will recognize the gentle woman in the second row Yeah, that is a good question. The question was are we taking questions and the answer is yes Yes, we are in fact taking questions Anyone who would like to ask a question? I'm sorry. You've already asked a question anyone else who would like to ask a question Amida what is your question? So I'm gonna repeat the question first and I'm gonna paraphrase it a bit the blog post that was written by Matthew and was actually read by a number of members of council before it was posted So that he doesn't have to take all the blame And a lot of the communication that has come out of the council has indicated a desire to align the activities What we're working on as well as like how we spend our money around the objectives of The project the primary objectives that have been identified by the council being the the CI and modularity Components as well as we have things like mindshare and the additions of fedora And so the core question was how do we align non? like technically Contributing parts of the project around these things and is there any scope for expansion of these? And I'm actually hand the mic to Matthew if that's okay with everybody because he gave a good version of the answer I think earlier that I would like to have him repeat maybe All right, I'm gonna say and answer and then if it's not the one you were looking for you can like prompt me until I come Up with the thing you think I said that was good Yeah, so I think I do have two separate answers to it one of them is that The things that we've identified the the CI and modularity objectives are they're both technical things But in generally what we're doing if they're overall is technical and the tech all the technical things have very important non-technical aspects to them that are important within that so We're going to need all of these soft things around you see I and modularity like that's going to need documentation It's gonna need design. It's gonna need Just be people talking about it those kind of things which are less technical So that's one aspect of it and I think the other aspect is like we have identified those objectives right now We have room for more objectives and so there are other things that can fit within the mission that Could also possibly be more aligned with some of the things people are interested in it. No, we haven't You know put up right now as The things we're focusing on if either of those close to what you thought Very simple statement is that we are fundamentally missing Objectives that we know are important to Fedora that do not have essentially objective write-ups and sponsors You know as I jokingly keep reminding that you know I wrote some examples of those things in that blog post, you know I just completely made them up, but you know This is the whole point is that the first part of your statement is should all of the funding and work and everything else Be focused around those objectives. Yes Second part of that question is are the objectives complete? No Does that make sense? And I don't want to chain in too long You specifically mentioned things like Fedora Women's Day Which I did not put in my paraphrasing and I happen to know you're very active on the diversity group Which I also did not put in my paraphrasing The Activities of that group create opportunities for new contributors to the project and new users of the project There's absolutely no reason why a say Fedora Women's Day activity could not be focused on a female Community that would lead to modularity contributors. So there is a heavy alignment there So it's just we need to look at the right way to to put it all together so that we're attracting In your case because you're thinking about diversity We're attracting a diverse community of people who are going to align well with what we're trying to do Going out and attracting I don't know Lama farmers because they're my favorite group to pick on these days is not necessarily going to Align well with what we're trying to accomplish in Fedora So attracting a large diverse group of them is just going to lead to a large I grew for a diverse group of people who are upset because we're not doing something that makes sense to them and I think that answers Yeah, exactly. The other piece too is that the The council I don't expect it to be particularly draconian So make the proposal find some rough tie-in to one of the objectives and see what happens you know, so, you know dead the idea is just that I think the council and the budget process we felt like it was really Kind of black boxy, you know, it was like, you know money went out to these various regions And there was very little kind of information back about like how successful is this is it aligned with what we're trying to do Is it you know, can it be improved? Could could we learn from each other about how we do things differently? And so this was an attempt to make it so that it could be a little bit more Transparent and it could be a little bit more focused and with actual metric results It may not be a great idea It's but it's when we you know came up with just start with right and we'll see how it goes Next question from the gentleman in the front row. I'm just gonna repeat kind of what you said then I'll hand you the mic What I'm hearing from you is that given a hypothetical objective or alignment around containers, for example Today when an ambassador attends a general Linux event, we will typically send to ambassadors Oftentimes an experienced ambassador and then a new ambassador and they will work the event But if we were to attend a specialized event such as a containers event We need someone who is not only good as an ambassador, but we also need a container expert And what are we going to do about that? Is that the general gist of the discussion? Okay, mr. Miller? I Think that's a good thing. I guess I think it is We've definitely had a problem with Very little communication between ambassadors and the rest of the project for a while in both directions Like it's people technical people don't really think Working I'm just working on this stuff and not like how will I engage ambassadors to help you bring this to people and ambassadors? You haven't been you know dragging container experts or whatever to talk So I think anything we can do to help that happen is actually really good I don't know how to do it But I think I think it is definitely a good thing to strive for and I think and we do have those container experts In the community and a lot of them are outgoing friendly nice people who just you maybe don't know the way the ambassadors project works So I think that pairing you're talking about is Very possible and a good strong thing we have got going Of course Langdon has more to say So while I generally agree with you, I just agree with the necessary Point in a sense like I don't actually think you need a container expert to go and talk about containers I mean you don't need you know somebody who? You know is an expert in you know the bootloader to go and pitch fedora today, right? I mean they you know you you're not trying to go and teach people how containers work I think you could and it doesn't hurt But I don't I don't actually see a juxtaposition between that and saying hey, you know we have this distribution It's you know one aspect of it You know the addition is kind of very focused on good runtimes for containers Somebody asks you back how to build a particular container. Oh, you know that but we have lots of them available We have a community around it, you know come and join us and talk about it. I mean, so I'm not a hundred percent In agreement that you actually need that expert in the objective just because you know You want to kind of approach fedora or potential fedora people? Yeah, I basically agree with that except I think sometimes some of these new technologies are Kind of scary and foreign to people who are in the ambassadors Not that it's things are changing a lot These are new things and you're not you just because you're an ambassador doesn't mean you're up on everything So I think that it would be good as a project and if you know people doing the doing the objectives have Materials that are useful for the ambassadors like we need to start producing those things as part of the documentation stuff part of marketing like this is things that so so If you're an ambassador who is basically you have a crash course in what you're talking about when you go to the conference So you don't feel like you're too stupid to be there You know the basics and you know like where to refer to people to other things as well Yeah, this is this topic is something which Mindshare should care about and I Think one of the main goals of mind-sharish is to improve the communication between technical teams and outreach teams and This could lead also to Find out which persons we need in that event and To be as best present as possible to the user experience Sending sending their two ambassadors which don't know anything about containers Is Doesn't make that that sense. I think so having one expert and upon ambassador is much more useful Then having two ambassadors there. I was just gonna add very briefly while I agree with everything that's been said I'm gonna play doubles advocate on the other side I work for the OSS team at Red Hat as part of my role and one of the things that my boss metrics My teammates on is the number of times that we sent someone who wasn't us And so I would turn that around a bit to the ambassadors and I would say Part of your role is of course to represent the project part of your role is to identify where the project should be Represented and to get the right person to the right place So there are definitely certain events certain kinds of talks etc. Where we may literally send no ambassadors and We give somebody the equivalent of what Matthew brought up Which is here's the sheet on how you help somebody get to the rest of the project But we're expecting you to go there because you're a colonel engineer and they're all colonel engineers And that's what they're gonna be talking about So it kind of works both ways as an outreach activity So just another form of that to keep in mind and and I apologize you were gonna talk and then I was just gonna add some context to because I knew like some of the concern was also with about budget and like a smaller pool of fedora ambassadors like in the specific example of North America, so Right, right, so you'd have greater travel costs in combination with possibly Fewer events because you would have increased travel costs to get people from different areas and locations, so Right, so I think in my mind I think definitely a huge part of this is along with mindshare and trying to create Easier talking points for some of these more advanced technical topics So we can actually send people from our existing pool and try to train them on some or train them provide them with the information and tools for success to be To have an impact at these new kind of events, so I think it would be a combination of kind of both things of Being strategic with kind of the people we are sending to events Which might bring increased travel costs and like an example of North America where you might have a 15 people for both sides of the Of the coast right, but I also think another part of it is also Putting confidence into our existing pool of ambassadors Which I think is something that has been identified already as an active focus to try to make some of these really complicated and really complex things Into more easier to understand talking points like an example of marketing We have I could kind of like these things that we have like talking points every release We have like what's new in fedora new things in workstation server cloud or atomic, so it's really easy for an ambassador to understand I think that's a really great way for us to try to Kind of take some of these technical topics Even some things that aren't already included like in the marketing talking points to try to make it easier for our ambassadors to Understand these things and also have the confidence and feel like they can be successful at some of these kinds of events So I feel like it's kind of a middle ground approach that we need to take where it'd be also some of the ambassadors trying to do more outreach maybe other people in our community and Coming with maybe a little higher travel costs for some of them in combination with providing the resources and Information to help our existing ambassadors feel confident at these kind of events Brian was just showing me here. I'll put had this right mic right over According to the budget page today There's $42,000 in unauthenticated cash So I'm not worried about the ability of a region to come back and go we have this event We need somebody yet and it's gonna have an extra four hundred dollar plane ticket or a thousand dollar plane ticket and costs with hotels Associated with it and we don't have the money in our current budget We know why it's important to be there We need that money and that's part of the goal of what the council is doing by sitting on this pot of money Is not because we enjoy swimming in it like Scrooge McDuck But it's because we want to have this money available For these kinds of important functions and not necessarily locked up in a sub budget somewhere Where we can't access it to hand it to the group that's got the idea to run to the finish line It actually dovetails into what I was gonna say, but basically you're saying you know and But you don't want to you don't want to fedora booth populated with salespeople, right or or non-technical, right? So You know, I guess I guess I don't necessarily share the I don't mind being an idiot So, you know, I'll walk in there and anybody asked me a question if I don't know the answer I'll go find out and then I'll bring it back to them But the only point I was gonna add really which kind of dovetails what you're talking about I think there's actually ridiculously more experts available than you may be aware of I know for me like I Didn't know for a long time that there was the kind of that there was a channel for which I could say Hey, I'm gonna be in this area. You know, is there anything I can do to like present at a meet-up or something like that? So I actually think there's there's probably more experts out there than necessarily realize that don't know that there's a need To be able to man a booth or whatever So you might be pleasantly surprised if we find a better way to try to find them And I think that's part of the issue which you're kind of identifying for But I do think that there may be more than you know of that we have to figure out how to expose or whatever the word is I Just would like to ask a question. Do you see the order proposal you made? Is it some issue you are currently facing or is it a proposal how to make things better? Okay, so it's not like current hot issue. We need to solve immediately Having We surely have So We can somehow So I'm gonna actually interrupt you only because I think that there's gonna be some great conversation on these kinds of specific level Ways to solve this in sessions like the mind chair session And yes, when is your session? I'm sorry Thursday Thursday at 2 p.m. In the mind chair session. There's a session by NB and Yona at Thursday at 3 p.m. How convenient like it's almost like the scheduling committee knew But they're gonna be talking about the future of ambassadors as well So I think that for the purposes of the council conversation We should keep it not to necessarily how Ambassadors can affect the change as much as how can we as counsel support you in Affecting a change that makes sense and it may be a different thing in NA or for American ambassadors than say for Greek ambassadors Yeah, that's actually just what I was gonna say I think we need to make sure there's a bridge between the specific objectives like right now There are two so it's not like we have an infinite list of things to worry about So, you know talk to Langdon talk to Steph like maybe set up a thing with the ambassadors and they and those working groups and see what What specific things can be worked out Thank you. Yes Now we have Yeah, so Basically if you look at Fedora next right as the beginning We've kind of been proceeding along that path and we had Fedora next right This one no, so we have Fedora next which led to kind of the ring story Which led to the addition story and then it kind of morphed into the modularity story You're supposed to be here Steph So and the question basically is that how should we be explaining modularity as an objective as You know, maybe the ring story was simpler to explain the additions was simpler to explain And personally the way I explain modularity is it's a desire to disconnect the lifecycle of the particularly the OS from the applications that Sit on top of it and the applications from each other, which is kind of the antithesis of the distribution model So that's really what the goal of modularity is. It's taking the additions and going another step further and saying How can we actually disconnect the individual pieces from each other? So someone on the develop list said in response to basically that That's not really a goal. That's a Step on the way to some other goal. What is the what what does doing that get us like if we if we have that split What do we get from it? So I like Adam I think actually came up with this tagline which is giving a user the version of the thing that they want when they want it Instead of the you know, kind of the authors of the distribution deciding What version of things that a user wants and when they get it Is I really like that explanation, but it's I think it's easier written than it is verbally Does that make sense to anybody? Can somebody else paraphrase that differently? So right now fedora tells you When you get the new version of whatever right and you get it whether you like it or not, right? You can you can try to pin you can try to hack it. You can try to avoid upgrades But basically fedora tells you when you will get something Modularity the idea is the reverse is that fedora makes it available And then you choose as a consumer when to consume it and so that consumer could be you know You take something like red mine, which is like a ticketing system in rails, right? So whenever the new version of rails comes out fedora pushes that new version of rails And you're going to get it for red mine whether red mine is ready for it or not right my actually my classic example of this was p sorry Drupal I worked for a company that specialized in doing Drupal and PHP 5 2 to 5 3 had caused breaking changes in Drupal and all of the distros upgraded to 5 3 and lots and lots of Drupal broke And so that's exactly the problem. We're trying to avoid right so you have that kind of consumer Which is like a developer consuming the new version of things when they're ready to consume it And then you have other kinds of consumers like you know humans who are sitting in a workstation They want you know the the rolling release of firefox because they want the bleeding edge version Oh wait, but this other guy doesn't because none of his extensions work, right? So you have all these different use cases where all these different people Depending on the scenario in which they find themselves Have completely different rules for when they want to upgrade or you know or remain the same And everybody thinks that their own personal experience is the actual answer for everyone else Right and in fact it's pretty much by use case and you may even have different answers depending on which computer You're talking about right so in your container for example You may want all the bleeding edge stuff right or in your You know server in your basement you want you know nothing to ever upgrade ever right or on your laptop You want the bleeding version of you know firefox, but you want them to leave emacs alone, you know So Everybody has different answers these questions They have different answers these questions depending on the time of the day and use case and scenario and environment And that's what we want to enable Mike McGrath makes a reddit reference So an example of kind of communities So, um, I actually don't know it either and I actually just read it too. Um, but uh, so another example is uh, when you talk about community use cases So in other words Does the no js community have the same requirements out of their distribution or have the same life cycle out of their distribution Or what they you know what they want to give to their end users as the pearl community I mean, you know any day now we'll get pearl six, right? So Is that the one right and there's no way in a traditional distribution model not not just fedora any of them to Allow for any sort of variation between different kinds of communities You know gnome is a great example, right? I mean, you know gnome wants to rebase whatever it's every six months every year it's every six months You know and part of the reason for the release timeline for fedora right now is because of glibc Right because they want to release every six months So, you know, we have all of these communities that have different needs and different goals And then we have all these different end you and those are different different kinds of consumers Um, all of them want to set their own life cycle around different things So one thing I think I've seen a lot of the um, like Modularity gives us a lot of capability to do a lot of things And I think some of it is a just because we could do that doesn't mean we're going to let alone that we should So one of the things I think is the question is like how many modules are we going to have? Is there a separate module for every individual package? Will there be 14 versions of like gcal available to everybody? Um, I hope not I that would be terrible. Um, we can't possibly sustain that So I think that um modules are going to be your leaf applications and things like language stacks Um, probably um, maybe not, but I think that's where we'll focus things I think things will kind of grow out of there rather than the now everything's a module. Um, good luck put together a distro I don't I think that a lot of the worry I've seen kind of Projecting that endpoint and worrying from it and I don't think that's where we're aiming for is that So the and and there's a key difference about it enables a lot of things that we could do But you know what right now we can't do Half this stuff right we can't do 80 percent of it We just it's fundamentally doesn't fit through our infrastructure. It doesn't you know, we have an infrastructure that is designed around Taking binaries putting them into rpms and producing one product, right? We went crazy and now produce a few different products and oh my god The heartache involved in making all of that stuff go right like that's just going from one to like five Right, you start introducing containers and then you want to have specialized vm So you want to have specialized anything like it just goes insane the infrastructure just falls apart And what it really also lets you do is let you start to think about it differently And part of the goal for me is that I don't know where it's going to go and like this guy for example decided Hey, here's a way we can model ci Right in using modularity, right? I mean you might have been able to do it another way, but I'm going to hassle stuff and make him the answer about using atomic for modules was all Modularity is the chamois of Of an atomic host based on ci There's a list of stuff that that we've been talking about For how to make atomic host development Automatable Such as reverting changes that are broken rolling back a package that later was found to have That should not have gone out or I'm describing the exact nvrs and Content that should go into a compose and then there's a there's a list of these types of things That if you don't use modules to solve that problem You can invent something that looks a lot like modules to solve that problem and uh, so Modules I think As a concept they work really well. We need to of course work out the kinks I think and see when we splice that in to the to the ci concepts for atomic host But uh, but it really does answer a lot of questions and I think that's good Um, let's see. Where can you get more info? Um, this the ci The objective that we have for ci cd enumerates these and refers to modularity So there's bullet points down. I think you scroll past the the fold. You'll find that on the wiki page I'm really the the only point I was trying to make there is that I want to you know, I want modularity to allow for people to think about the Problems they're looking at differently. Right. It's not, you know, rpm is not the single answer Right, you know or or our koji or whatever, you know, like I'm not sure whether quite the right word But it's like the fedora way Is not the only way we can have we can think about things completely differently if we can kind of make our Pipeline more flexible and that's really what the goal is Who knows where it'll go. I mean, that's the point specific problem of explaining it and also it's a general problem of we need to be better explaining things We've got lots lots lots of effort going into it lots of lots of people developing Writing about it. It's useful to have something that the skills Next question, let's do the introduction. Yeah, we're gonna actually usually we're gonna pause for a moment Since we're on video and Steph showed up. We're gonna do a quick round of introductions Just so we've got that captured for folks Not present is josh boyer the fesco representative. So If you're on video know that he's not here Yes, uh, I'm robert mayer roby duck I'm the main lead of the websites team fanscom member council of for the last three releases and Actually also pharma My main goals are representing the community so the um, non red hat part of our community and Trying to get As much as possible outside to the to the outreach teams, uh, what we decided in inside the council Okay, so my name is young curic. Uh, so the shortcut on irc is j curic And I'm program manager for fedora. That means I'm taking taking care of scheduling change wrangler election wrangler and All this not all but some of this administrative stuff around I'm brian exelbeard. I'm bexel be on irc. I'm the fedora community action and impact coordinator of the fcake Um, I mostly have secret cabal meetings with matthew miller Uh, and I work to try and empower the community to get to where it wants to go Whether that's serving as a liaison with our primary sponsor red hat whether that is um, You know working actually on hacking on things doing things showing up at conferences Whatever it is that I need to do to help the community be successful. That is what my job title is I'm matthew miller. I'm the fedora project leader I've been doing this for longer than any other fedora project leader Which probably makes me the craziest. I think that's Matt dm on all of the things Hi, my name is justin florie. Um, my fast is j florie 7 irc jwf I'm involved in a lot of different non technical areas in the project like community operations ambassadors marketing diversity team A few other areas I was elected to the council this past election. So I'm be serving for the next two release cycles Welcome, but I'm stef stef w on irc. Um, I've Contributed to over a hundred different open source projects and that points to What I'm really interested about in linux is integrating it bringing it together and making it work So I've been involved in cockpit doing that talking to all sorts of parts of the system And building a ui out of it And now, uh, we in that project we we used machines Um, and and bots and robots really effectively that's contributors to the project and got really far down that road down all the way to machine learning and training machines and so on And I'd like to help fedora Be able to take advantage of that by doing c i c d and tests which are really the foundation of those things I'm uh, langdon and i'm langdon most places except on twitter where I am one followed by angdon, uh, but uh Let's see. So, uh, I think I am primarily thought of as the person who sets things on fire But yeah, that's pretty much me. I I really Uh, I try to think about how do we You know, what what's coming like how are we going to do the next thing and how are we going to be capable of Doing the next thing and then how can we Uh, take this kind of really amorphous future land problem and break it down into pieces that we can then turn into things Like the factory 2 project or turn into things like the base runtime and hosting platform projects or how do we, um, You know kind of specialize out into taking, you know modules and bringing them back together again. So Um, so my general goal. I think is I want to see You know fedora be the distribution as uh, somebody Can't think of the article, but basically it's like I want innovation around the os right. I don't want us just to be an upstream consumer That packages and distributes. I want the I want us driving change and how people consume Uh software and my end state goal is like completely nutter so we can talk about that fear or something Here's So I'll repeat the question briefly There was recently a lively discussion on develop list where it was posited that perhaps There were ways to build parts of fedora without rpm and the question becomes is that a core part of our identity? And basically should we ride rpm into the sunset if it's a sunset or into the future if it's the future Or should we give serious consideration to possibly having parts of fedora that are rpm less? Is that I'm going to go first before laying the talks Now um So yeah, I think that uh, there are a lot of valuable things that rpm brings to The distro and the rpm management tools that are important to people Um, I think doing those things in a good way that preserves the value that people get from them is core Um, but I don't think that we should saddle ourselves to That horse as it rides out into the ocean Or whatever Not very far so So I largely agree. I mean, I think rpm is a euphemism for A bunch of things that that technology happens to bring to the table for fedora, right? reproducibility traceability metadata around what you know what the thing is uh dependency structure You know licensing lots and lots and lots of different stuff You can look at all one space to find all of my software One of the things that um, you know kind of the I would say most of the rpm district's value is that upgrades are unattended Um, you know things like that. It's not actually rpm, right? I mean, maybe it is for some people But I know I certainly don't care about the particular piece of software that is providing that that set of features Um, I think the set of features is incredibly important Um, and right now we have a thing that delivers that set of features. So why would we write a new one? But That said does it mean that perhaps we may want to You know expand upon it or write a new one or whatever we might but you know, just like why would we sit down and rewrite koji? You know for you know, there's potentially value there Sure, but it's a huge amount of work and most importantly. It is a huge amount of testing, right? We know koji delivers what it delivers today We know rpm delivers what it delivers today through many many years of proving it The second you try to greenfield that you're in trouble, right? That is a lot of work I'm speaking as a software consultant who made a lot of money on doing those things. Um, it is very very dangerous. So Like I said, I don't I'm certainly not married to rpm You know or yum or dnf or any of the kind of tool chain around it But I am very married to the feature set it brings and it's a really good tool of doing it. So Why bother doing something different? Yes Apple So to paraphrase the the question statement for discussion During the state of the union. We saw a slide where apple growth was shown to be Both on a very strong upward trend and significantly larger than fedora growth And the question is how do we convert apple users into fedora users and contributors? Or I I'm kind of paraphrasing here a bit But also get them frankly to identify the source of the thing which they love Is one of the takeaways and the question was kind of a discussion point for the council of what do you think of these things? Well, why don't we start with someone from the audience? Mr. McGrath, please no reddit references I'll paraphrase that briefly then We think that there there is some percentage of apple growth that is driven by the use of amazon linux which can also make use of a lot of apple packages and They present very different use cases and user base and so that may potentially Create a different answer for what we might want to do with this question to think about it outside of the bounds of the enterprise Linux family of distributions I was going to say we're going to let the amazon guy speak So I want to be very careful when I paraphrase you here in case someone watches the video So please correct me if I if I misstate Or misspoke misspeak. Yeah, all right. You can correct all of those things too. Um But basically there is interest potentially in seeing amazon become a greater contributing partner to apple In both pushing tools and agents that are amazon linux specific But also perhaps becoming members of the packaging and contributing community around heavily used apple packages within the amazon linux space is that Okay, thank you. That may not be held against anyone on this video All right, we'll we'll finally let matthew talk What was I even gonna say? No, I think amazon people who are watching I really like to encourage you to get involved directly in fedora and working on an Apple there that would be awesome And if you would like to talk to me about that off the record on the record, whatever i'm here for you In general or on um With centOS in particular, I guess, um, you know now that centOS is kind of part of the red hat family We've got centOS people here at this conference. Um, I would really like to work more I'm building those bridges and making centOS feel people feel like they're part of the fedora community and You know the other way around as much as much as we can as well Um, I I have some hopes for modularity along these lines I think I mentioned that in my keynote if I didn't I skipped something I think is important Which is that you know as we're building modules Those modules should run on you know the enterprise linux stuff as well I think that's an opportunity for bridging things there. I'd like to see you know like centOS sigs If we have modules that have like a three-year lifespan I'd love to see that be a centOS sig working on that in fedora to maintain that longer lifespan Kind of fitting with the centOS brand for a longer longer maintenance window I don't know how we'll figure all that out, but I think we've got some opportunities for building that up uh, yeah, I think we've um, I don't know I come envious of our susa friends because they've got all of this stuff under one nice marketing name bubble of their Leap and tumbleweed and all those things together And we have some of the same kind of thing But we've segmented it into separate communities and it would be nice to build those bridges ups of People who are sent to us users using apple feel like I am a fedora user And we don't feel like the people who are sent to us. They need that centOS base os like we don't feel like You can't be really part of our community unless you switch out your base os for the one that changes every six months Because that's not doing us any favors either You kind of touch on some of what I say a very smart man said to me early into my role That apple is in many ways the core of what fedora is because it is our core packaging It is where a lot of but certainly not all of our contribution has taken place historically And an interesting objective idea that as a council member, I would love to see fleshed out would be something around How do we grow? participation in apple As a way of talking about the fedora project Um, because that may you know, we heard from our friend at amazon Um, we we have a lot of opportunity there to bring packages that might not ever land in fedora proper without Assistance of people who are not already in our community. So that could be a really cool Third seat which we did not represent with empty seats But we have the opportunity to put more chairs up here for more than just the missing josh boyer I thought that was pretty good the rep fesco rep is the engineering side rep so josh should Yeah, I didn't want too many people off the table here. It's unwieldy other questions and comments so going this kind of goes back to the um, uh, aligning everything with objectives question and so The question that was posed to me was basically with somebody who's been an active ambassador for I don't know ever and that You know, they recognize the kind of statement of that there's missing objectives And maybe we need to build those up so that they're reflective of the things that the ambassadors do or need to do But the question was basically like that They felt like that their ambassador commitment was already the the edge of the amount of effort that they could provide Or you know contribution that they could provide and that actually being an objective lead You know much less writing the objective, but maybe being the objective lead was too much Time from from them So that's the question Okay, do you form your question in the form of a question? Yes So what's What do you advise is the barrier to entry too high? Is there is it that this person just doesn't have the time And you're expecting somebody else to have the time are there ways? And I know we one of the things that we proposed in there was ways that you could expand the effort so you could actually have Several people right that we're going to be meeting an objective potentially So that's the question is how does somebody go about this without it being too high? Yeah, so, um It's definitely something that I expect would be a commitment, right? I mean there's something we don't want somebody saying I'm going to be the objective lead and then not show up again That would not be good I think it doesn't necessarily need to be something that's a full-time job or a 10 hour a week job It would be nice if the person who's the objective lead can show up to most of the council meetings And especially ones that are related to that objective Um, but also, you know, maybe check in, you know once a month or so at the report on how this is going You know go to the related meetings and things So I think it's a it is a commitment, but it's not It's not necessarily an insurmountable thing and it is also something that is You know time limited to this is an 18 you know 12 to 18 months kind of thing So you can say I'm good. This is going to be my project for this year Kind of thing and not like from the rest of my life. I am now the lead for this objective Unless you want to keep unless you're Langdon. He's stuck with this right, um does that Objectives You can kind of think about them like open source projects You you rarely will be as successful alone as you will be with a group So you may have a great foundational idea for an objective and you can get it to the point that you bring in Two or three people who are interested and one of them steps up to the plate to do the writing and one of them Steps up to the plate to be the objective lead I'll pick on stuff because the ci objective actually has a couple of people who were key In bringing it forward to the council and when the council debated it and we finally decided to approve it The big question we sent back to them was you guys pick one person to show up Because we're not appointing everybody to the council as the objective wrap And they had to go back to the table and I'm assuming it wasn't an arm wrestling contest because dusty's bigger than you But um, you know step step one are lost depending on how you look at this But I think there's a lot of opportunity there for people to build a community around their objective to ensure its success And by virtue of that not have to overextend themselves Yeah, absolutely like like any open source project if it is just your personal hobby thing This success is going to be limited if it's something where it is something There's a lot of people in the fedora community who are interested in it You should be able to build up a community around it even if it's you know Two or three core committed people and then some other people with smaller contributions around the edges I think things that are objectives should be things like that And if you have a great idea like I wanted somebody to show up and do a fedora and open shift to look how great We work together objective I put that idea out there and nobody showed up around to do it So we don't have that as an objective because it takes it takes the you know People committed to do it to make it happen I still hope we'll eventually get there because I think that's a good idea But right now we didn't really have the people with the interest to do it. So it's not an objective Yeah So I thought the answers were good and you know largely I think that was kind of how I entered as well But I wanted to kind of state it for the record and I think maybe a follow-up blog post might be a good idea But then in a related way You said one thing is like how could you share this out? What's the what's the recommended channel that we should be sending out? Calls for help for objectives Would it be the community Com blog, okay. That's that's what I'm saying. It's like So some answers The answers for the answers for how to find help I think would be very similar actually to your question regarding finding people to assist with specific kinds of focused events in Ambassador hood look at the mailing lists within the project that are focused around that area Look at the com blog Potentially even fedora magazine depending on the topic Com blog has come a long way that group has done a fantastic job I think creating an opportunity for us to talk to People across the project who may not realize they're interested in a topic. So they never joined that mailing list So i'm going to push very heavily on com blog Mostly suggestion doesn't have to um I mean I do really that's I mean from the very beginning of when the community blog was created It was specifically with the motivation that there's these different silos across the project that normally wouldn't have a reason to communicate So you'll have different parts of the community They're all working in different areas and there might be like that missing bridge between the two and that's definitely When we concept or when we concepted the com blog that was part of the motivation That's part of the the driving one of the driving motivations for the community operations team as a whole So if there was a group that I would say it would be willing to like have a conversation or help people with that I would also probably point people to com ops um, if not the council for specific questions to Create an objective or to go that route But as far as communicating information across different parts of the project, that's definitely one of the driving motivations for com ops and the community blog is one of those Branches off of how we're trying to make it easier for people to keep up with things. So I definitely recommend um, and I also would love feedback on this process too from people who have even written for the com blog or ways to make it easier for people um Because ideally we would like it very easy to make it To make it easy for people to keep up with the information that they want to that's why you can go in the com blog go to categories council There's objectively is modularity Project atomic and you can keep up with these very like very specific categories of fedora And it's the goal is to make it make that information accessible and visible As it was once said it's about bringing heat and light to these different Different parts of the fedora project and community technical and non technical Or they're very likely to try So the question was around the mention that perhaps traditional Linux events were not as valuable for impact purposes Although they remained valuable for lots of potentially other reasons in the blog post And so the question is how do hackathons work and at least in north america It sounds like about 40 percent of events that ambassadors are attending are college level hackathons And so how do you see that fitting in you were the primary author you get to go first Um, I don't know actually So I have not been to a college hackathon in a very long time. So I don't I I'm not quite sure how Fedora is working there. I guess I would like to see for those events You know specific goals and then you are the how do we measure them and you know, are those goals achieved? I think that there are things in these that probably can align with the objectives I know that you know student developer is one of the personas for fedora workstation. So One easy answer is Funnel all that through look or promoting fedora workstation to student developers because that is something that is in In the target audience there and I think that probably can also fit for things like atomic and the ci initiative We can probably find hooks for those things there But I don't actually know the format of what these hackathons Is so maybe I'll pass it to Justin who does um, I think that there is kind of Two different ways of putting it so A lot of times that the students that these hackathons are very ready to try new technologies And they go there with the mindset of intentionally trying to try new things that they wouldn't normally do And I think there's actually a very strong case especially for like containers And that I'm looking at that kind of facet of it with containers and container orchestration So I think that it's very possible to still have a presence at hackathons like student hackathons But the mindset for proposing how we're going to represent ourselves there is extremely important I think going in with a focus on knowing some of the technologies that we have available and being able to speak At least at an introductory level for them is really important to introduce some of those new things Because I think if you can make if you can make a clear and convincing case like hey If you're developing you're trying to do your app and you've done this in like normal command line Like on your workstation if you can introduce some of these really cool things Like you'd make it easier for our containers or to develop inside of the container and then try to orchestrate it with a Or host it like in a cloud platform for your own development And you can use some of these tools that are available in fedora to do that Knowing being able to say that and know when it applies. I think is extremely vital because I think if you can just have the enough knowledge and understanding of some of these technologies and tools in fedora to just kind of Guide someone in that direction. I think that's a Great way to actually have strong engagement with students specifically at like collegiate hackathons To engage with some of these technologies inside of fedora whether they're using fedora explicitly or not like on their on their laptop I think if if there if I was looking at like an event proposal for a hackathon anywhere and there wasn't some kind of Goal or some kind of plan to try to be like I want or we want to try to introduce these technologies We want to try to introduce students to containers or or project atomic as like a development platform like these kind of things I'd be a little more skeptical because you can send people to collegiate hackathon you can talk about fedora But I think the engagement and the The interest you'll have from students is much higher too if you can talk about not just fedora linux workstation But if you can introduce them to these tools that they're already ready to try and they don't might not even know exist For their projects they would use. I think it's just knowing ahead of time kind of like talking points again of The things you would want to kind of guide them towards so like I think it just it would require Pre-planning before you go there to introduce some of these things I'm going to play put stefan langdon on the spot So for you you've got these objectives the atomic ci in modularity if there were a hackathon and is like you're supposed to have something Bring something with ci at you know Specifically atomico ci to this hackathon like what would you be able to bring and what would you get out of that? So i'm going to use an example a real example not of a hackathon, but something that had to work and it's pretty impressive To me at least what what people come up with the really cool thing when you go to these places is the new ideas that come out And so for ci a lot of times we think of ci as the end all and be all Really tests and i'll talk about this more on thursday at five p.m. So come Is tests are the the the way to teach machines between good and evil right and wrong and so you you build off this basic Substrate and you start start to get machines to do interesting things and a lot of people at hackathons are interested in machine learning Machine training and so on so we we took a bunch of data half a million test results With various fields associated with them such as what was done afterwards and so on and within a couple days posting this We get back and someone just hacked up a neural network predicting what what what kind of uh What kind of tests actually were real failures and what kind of tests were flakes What what a human would have done with these things what they did in the past predicting what they're going to do in the future That's the kind of thing that right off the top of my head. I would say bring that To to to a college hackathon or to any kind of place like to bring data Bring these ideas and the framework necessary to enable Teaching machines based on this this foundation So i'm going to cheat by first saying um I think you have described a great objective of producing several playbooks for hackathons to be used by Colleges to you know sell fedora So that like I I think that would be an objective in and of itself It's like how do we how do we better approach hack days? You know, and I think that could be all on its own And then incorporate things like the ci objective or whatever as some of the channels As far as modularity is concerned. I think I think that one's weird I think it's going to be hard because you've got to be really steeped in understanding what a distribution is about That said I think as the tools get better There will be opportunity for people to Kind of show new and different ways of kind of bringing things together to provide platforms or solutions Um, but I don't think we're there yet. I think I think we've got another you know a couple months Before we we had something that we could give at like a college hackathon Sure but So something that strikes me is that both of the these objectives Are Both to be enablers for then big steps and innovation, right? It's just to unlock what's then possible So I I don't know that we would expect such a hackathon to do the unlocking But then to bring enough of it and to give clues and hints as to okay now Help me the kind of You know Bring bring some ideas that are based on top of this or like it germinate that and make that happen So it's similar goes to modularity. It's supposed to be an enabler for then cool stuff to come out That cool stuff is what we're after when we go into a hackathon, I would say Yeah, I definitely would agree. I mean, I think the the hackathons are way more interesting about Like, you know, how fast, you know, can you put up a full development environment leveraging? You know true ci right? You know well known working components, which is the modularity part And you know and then you know shipping a machine learning engine You know you can we can show you how you can do that and like in a hackathon kind of setup way And then the hackathon could be all about You know leveraging the countless You know Matt's crazy statistics on hotspot or on apple downloads and what what does that mean for the future of fedora? I mean, you know, it's like they are enablers more than they are hackathons themselves I'll just add that I think it would be totally awesome if an ambassador went to a hackathon And came back with a laundry list of things that would make fedora workstation better for developers And that's the kind of thing that we can also learn by going to hackathons and we get a secondary objective out of it So i'll just toss that out. There is a final keynote or a final point on that Unless you always to be finally pointed Thank you mike for all of the questions Um, you have 18 more minutes to generate yet another question, sir We have 18 minutes, so yes Uh Orange So the question is for each of the council members if you had essentially unlimited time Um, what would you do as an objective lead in fedora? And i'm going to skip with no disrespect either of the two of you unless you want to come up with another one Okay, so we'll start with Robiduck we have an archer Well, what will Be my objective, uh, I would like to Have some kind of Like automated tools for a lot of administrative tasks i'm dealing with So having these automated will be awesome, but at the moment there is Not enough capacity to To develop some tools for these administrative tasks So that's because i'm dealing with with this quite often I'm spending a lot of time on the on this That would be what I would like to Like automate So, um, for me some of you may have noticed we recently soft launched a brand new fedora doc site Um, and I had a lot to do with the work on that tooling If I was to lead an objective right now kind of dovetailing on that I would love to see the fedora project become an innovator in the space of documentation Not because the world needs more innovators in that space But because I think we have a general enough problem That the tooling that we come up with the way that we could look at like what robin and and that are going to propose Around user story based writing and stuff We can actually demonstrate that for so many consumers that need this And we have the skills and capacity to actually bring it to fruition and show people how Run this ansible playbook and you have everything you need and here's the playbook for how you actually do the writing So I think that's something where we could really be a leader So I kind of like the open shift thing I mentioned earlier. I think a mini shift is cool But if you want to go to a real deployment of open shift origin, it is ridiculously hard I would love to see that become very easy with fedora But that's a lot of work So I also like your docs thing. Um, and I also like that in particularly I'm a gigantic fanboy of stack exchange. I think they've got the q and a think down really well And our ask fedora thing makes me sad every time I look at it because It's not the fault of the community. It's really the fault of the software Because the software is It's kind of it's a one person project that person has done a fine job But it copies the surface of stack exchange and not the heart of it I would like to set up some and stack exchange is great, but not necessarily perfect They tried to do a new docs site and it fell flat on its face, which is interesting I would like to see us set up something that Combines the best of the q and a thing with a real doc short doc site because those things are really kind of intrinsically Connected because a lot of times like what people really want I have a question the answer should be here's the the short documentation that tells you exactly how to do that thing So I would love to hack on that, but I'm not going to I'm just going to look at it wistfully So for me it's not actually not a new objective, but more like a retired objective There is formerly the university involvement initiative that Kind of fell through for various reasons But if if I could take on a lead or I take on an objective with unlimited time I would really like to see fedora try to have a Targeted strategy towards university and student participation Partially because I think there is a a very large Pool of people that we could attract both as not just users of new technologies in the fedora family, but also Potential contributors as well, and I think it requires a different There's I think there's two things you have to think about going into putting together a proposal for that because It's something that would involve people from Ideally from all parts of the world So you really would need to have representation from Different areas in different parts of the world because there's not really anywhere. That's quite like another place I think as far as like different university structures and and curriculum works and understanding how you can engage with those students But I do think that There really is a large amount of interest in working with new technologies And you're able to introduce these things to students fairly easily as like I like you said earlier it was actually like Mike said earlier was Impressionable and ready to try new things but I just think it's It really does require you to think about how you're promoting technology in a new way Because like when we go to a traditional conference or if we go somewhere like even like a specific Conference for like a topic like let's say kubcon or or like a docker conference or any kind of specific focus topic People there know the technology they know the software they know the stack and you're just trying to show them Why fedora is a great platform or is a great way to accomplish their work With the tooling and of and what's available for them in the fedora With students that knowledge isn't there So you have to kind of do a little bit of extra legwork to introduce these things Because sometimes they might just not know about why like they don't have that background knowledge that someone at like a specific conference Like kubcon everyone knows about kubernetes You're trying to tell people why fedora is a great platform for open shift in kubernetes And like a student or I get a student focused event Whether it's a hackathon or something or something some other kind of a place You have a you have to do that some of that extra work yourself to try to Make that picture about why these technologies are great and why it's Why it's helpful and efficient or effective to work on them So like that's why I just think it would take some participation to to work on this initiative It would take participation from people in in different regions of the world and it would also require A little bit of extra legwork to think about how you're introducing these topics to people because I I am Really strongly believe that if you can get that presentation down You could you would attract a a significant pool of not just users But I think you would also invite people who want to Actually have an impact to work on these technologies and to understand them better And they would become contributors to different parts of the fedora community So I have like three right now The two of them are hard technical the other one is uh softer. I think the first one is um Significantly automate the rpm Spec file management and development You know so basically try to get it down to where you know, it's no big deal for one person to be maintaining a thousand rpms, right? And you're not spot, right That's one the second one is automatic back porting of patches So using static analysis of code and fuzzy fuzzy search algorithms and as well as generation of tests Can we actually say? Okay, you know, we have this new patch for xyz bug and the latest version of thing You know, we can automatically back port it to the last 16 minor versions. So I think that'd be really interesting I think we could actually do that a lot better than people think we do And then the last one which is a lot softer is I would like a true end-to-end really heavily focused development environment For developers on fedora. So in other words, like I want I want all those guys who switched to mac I want them back, right? You know and I want to have a true truly awesome end-to-end developer experience Where we add in all the knowledge we have as a distribution about what they want to work with and And use that as part of the information that we feed to the To the actual developers about what they're trying to accomplish and shortening the lifecycle on development So those are my my three current crazy For the purposes of the video especially I think the breadth and depth of the different kinds of things that we answered shows just how many objectives we are missing And that there's really a lot of opportunity to come to the council with an objective and not worry about us having a preset mindset About what an objective is supposed to look like Because I think we would really kind of also like to be surprised by something completely out of left field Or or right field I guess But left field preferred anything that's some sort of sports metaphor is going to be surprising Is there a final question or any closing thoughts from members of the council? So, um You're between me and a toilet. No, I'm just gonna go ahead Yeah, well, you know ip it happens. Yes, sir. What is your final question? Are the three additions that we produce and the spins and I'm going to toss in labs The right set of artifacts and outputs from the project I think that with a switch from the generic cloud to atomic I think that was a pretty good move and I think we're pretty well Set with things at this point. Um, I think we may need to make other Corrections like that in the future sometime. That's the you know against staying at the innovative point on things Um, I feel pretty good about our set of deliverables. I think maybe the one thing we're missing is the iot offering of some sort Um, peter robinson is not in this room, but he's got to talk about that somewhere else And I think um, yeah, especially as we actually like get working on raspberry pi Which is the most popular hobbyist thing out there. Um That will definitely help. Um, but Yeah, I don't know. Um as people come up That's the same thing as with the objectives like Those are things that should be coming to us as a community like showing up. Um, if we can't think of it It should be coming from the community Of course I have one Oh boy, um, the only one I I think there's a gap again around that kind of developer space in that like I don't think we produce particularly good I'm going to say vagrant vms, but I don't mean necessarily vagrant vms I kind of mean like the things that you use as the vm to develop things on So you might use a container for that, but you can't use that with mock, you know So, you know, you might so I think we have a little bit of a gap in there that cloud the cloud edition was filling That I think atomic will not Um, and so I think we have there is there is something in there But it might be fulfilled by a spin. It doesn't necessarily need the addition. So there's something There's a gap there Oh, and taylor had a presentation at dev con for this thing called purple egg, which is way up there in worst possible names but basically a Docker container based development environment sort of like the developer assistant thing but containerized With also a nice canone gooey around it, which I think Attacked that problem in a really interesting way Um, he has no funding to develop that idea But if it's interesting to anybody and they want something to hack on I think that's really cool And I think that would would help fill something that's missing in our developer story But it's not really in addition. It's just something it's like a feature for workstation. I'd like to see Um, I have to tell you upfront I am not actually a huge fan of the spins labs in additions nameset I feel like it's very hard to explain to people who are not steeped in the project But um, I would like to see us have more labs I believe that we could easily answer more of our target audiences with some specialized builds Which I think better build systems will make easier and practical to do without me being attacked by release engineering Um, but I feel like part of modularity is this idea of giving the user what they want when they want it I feel like labs are a great way for us to go. This is the fedora. You want when you want it Um, and it also, you know, you could argue some of these developer concepts are labs Some of the target audiences that have been talked about our labs Yeah, it'd be it'd be great to have like a machine learning thing That's like the python one, but it's focused on machine learning stuff, which I know that's a lot python But uh, that is a lot python already, but something specifically focused on this. We'll do it in pearl Uh, there's five minutes left. So, um, I'm gonna call it unless there are closing remarks from anybody Um, I encourage you to go off and enjoy other sessions There will also be sessions in this room if you wish to remain and enjoy Um, thank you very much