 Hi, this is Stu Miniman with Wikibon here at the work bar in Cambridge talking about open source, the future of open source. I want to talk a little bit about Matt Brender here, developer advocate with Bashow, really talking about applications. Matt, you're a student of history, you know, I think back, I talked to, you know, David Floyer, who's CTO, co-founder of Wikibon, you know, he cut his teeth working for IBM on the mainframe. And, you know, we go back to the beginning, it's like applications, there's, you know, there's a front end, there's middleware, there's a back end. In the original days, it all sat on a mainframe, you know, fast forward through the client server error, go through the virtualization error, which, you know, I say that the great thing about what virtualization did is it actually, you know, lowered the reliance that we had on what infrastructure that it had, but it actually did tie us a little bit tighter even to the operating system, I believe, because, you know, I think back to my early days working with VMware in like 2002, and I could take like Windows NT with my legacy application that had been around a while, stick it in IBM and leave it there a while. Fast forward to, say, talk to somebody like Docker, and they say the reliance on the operating system should be a little less, I can sit on any Linux, I can sit on Cloud based on Linux, bare metal, virtualization, it doesn't matter. Application management and infrastructure management are separate. So, I want to pivot to you, Matt, and say, you know, if I want kind of like the cloud native modern application, you know, how are companies getting there? What's holding them back? You know, how do we move? Well, I think about this more from a personal angle of like, how do I empower others to be part of this? And what do we do from an open source community point of view? As somebody that gets to contribute some degree for my job into the open source world, it's more about seeing what are people trying to develop and how can we enable that development to happen quite easily. So, yes, when we talked about virtualization, it did give you that pivot opportunity to go take your NT server and to keep it alive probably much longer than it would have on its own, without a doubt. But what that's also enabling is a change to how you design infrastructure. And despite saying, you know, operating systems aren't as relevant, you said Linux three or four times in that introduction. So, operating systems are still a big part of it. What's different is how much of the application is bound to the operating system and how are they portable across these different devices. I think open source is about making that process repeatable in configuration management, distributed configuration or distributed committing of code into GitHub and sharing that code and keeping things in places that are public that can be transferred to multiple locations. Yeah, so here might be a stupid question, but talk about Linux. I think back, you know, in the kind of the two dot four kernel era and had to am I working on kernel dot org or what version and whose distribution I lived through all the Linux wars. And, you know, Red Hat, you know, first billion dollar open source company done a great job. When people are coding today, are they thinking about, you know, oh, well, you know, this is going to be for a bun tour for Doros, or is that kind of off the table now and they don't need to worry about it. 100% on the table, you have to keep these things in mind. I think of configuration management using chef puppet and spoiler three most common these days. And I've been curating some open source maintenance by community contributors for react. And when looking at them, they all have a list of what operating systems are able to automatically deploy to. So we fundamentally have we're still a virgin society, we're still reliant on operating systems being that software that allows us to communicate to the hardware. So we haven't escaped that we've simply made it easier to deploy and care less about it the further up the stack you are. If you're the front end app developer, and you know a little bit of infrastructure, you might be like, All right, well, I know if I call this puppet module, I'll have a system that is in the state where I'm able to spin up my application. And that's all I know about the operating system. I don't care anymore. So I'm curious if you talk about kind of the container craze that's been going on lately, and you know, really led by Docker, but lots of good stuff going on core West announcement recently by VMware, others, Microsoft's involved in tells, you know, trying to figure out how they optimize for containers. One of the visions they paint is nirvana is when you talk about software development in general, and you know, it probably fits into the coding. Wouldn't it be nice if when I code it, I don't need to worry about, you know, what that was sitting underneath. So is that a pipe dream today? Or you know, if I do containers, as I said, that that kind of interoperability matrix is, boy, that's a lot of work. And you know, how many different environments do I go into? It's I want to make sure something works my environment. But as somebody that's contributing to something like open source, wouldn't it be lovely if I could have it work across lots of environments. So pipe dream reality and a good vision to strive for. I'm going to plead the fifth here. I have no authority on that subject. I only see what I use myself, which is an appreciation for tools that abstract away the complexity that I have to deal with it when I'm trying to develop something locally. So when you look locally these days, I think the most exciting thing happening is from HashiCorp with vagrant. And vagrant all it is is a set of wrappers of someone else's code. And that code does stuff that I don't want to do manually, where I type vagrant up and a file generates a virtual machine that installs application logic on top of that. And now I have a full development environment all at once on that one one environment. Sorry. But because of that, I didn't have to care how that system was built. And using that same tool, vagrant, I'm able to deploy that to any platform really with their different provider models. So in a sense, we're getting there to say that you're moving from a live system over here to a live system over there is still by no means trivial. But the idea of developers not needing to add more tools to their tool belt in order to get from point A to point B, we're definitely hitting that that juxtaposition. Yeah, I'm curious. One of the things I've been poking at recently is kind of stateless versus stateful applications because if it takes something like a website is I don't need to move websites, I just need new instances. So the early container discussions are really those stateless applications because I just need to spin up instances. Google creates millions of instances. I think it's a week and it's about new instances. It's not about keeping that data. It's not about moving them. So maybe outside of your area, but I'm just curious if that's something you've taken a look at. Well, I appreciate you taking that conversation to an angle where you're talking about stapled stateless and still talking to an infrastructure audience like we are, right? We're talking to infrastructure people and you're like, well, why? How could it be stateless? I must persist data somewhere. And the answer is yes, you still are. So just paying attention to what these things mean. The application itself is looking at a different model of how data is going to be presented to it. And what it expects as a prerequisite to that model. So you're not talking to a database in real time all the time. You're expecting that some information is local or it's just not important at that point. No matter what you're still storing data somewhere. And there is a data model related to that and a schema on top of that. And whether it's NoSQL, NewSQL, Google, FashionSQL, they all have these principles of data being stored and at rest on this. We're not getting away from that anytime soon. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even you look at, you know, companies like Facebook or Google, of course, they've got a lot of data and that data. Oh, by the way, that's really important to their business. So yeah, interest stuff. All right, Matt, I think we're going to wrap on that segment. You know, we've got some people coming in. You know, always appreciate the conversation here. And, you know, we'll be back with another interview. You know, keep watching the playlist. Thanks.