 Activists, artists, and citizens from nearly all walks of life and perspectives have struggled to reach beyond the limits of mainstream media. Whether it's Fox News or The New York Times, Rush Limbaugh, or Brian Williams, many people say they are tired of being talked to or overlooked. They seek to exercise their own rights to free speech, to fulfill a need to hear from independent voices. They exercise their rights and fulfill their needs by creating new avenues for speech, by inventing new forms of communication, and by seizing the microphone to speak to their community. This movement did not begin and does not end with the Internet or social media. It is a movement as old as the dawn of mass media itself. This series will highlight the contributions of alternative media and a political environment that seems to reward those with the most money, a political environment that does not necessarily reward those with the best ideas or those who serve the critical information needs of their communities. We're looking beyond mainstream media. And my name is Mark Lloyd. I'm the director of the Media Policy Initiative at the New America Foundation. And we are very privileged to be able to engage in a conversation with an independent filmmaker, Kevin McKinney, who has done a documentary about one of my favorite topics, Corporate FM. And we're going to talk a little bit about the documentary. But before we do that, I wanted to talk with you, Kevin, about why you do what you do as an independent filmmaker and what it means to be an independent documentary filmmaker today. First of all, thanks for having me here. Thanks to the New America Foundation. And all those great people who came on before us with Prometheus. It's great to share a bill with you. What brings me, motivates me, I'll answer that first, is I love my community. I love seeing my community be able to unite with itself. And that happened a lot where I used to live in Lawrence, Kansas, in Kansas City, Missouri, and in other, I'm a military borough, everywhere I lived, this whole city was united by this commercial radio station. In some of those places, that commercial radio station had vision. And that's what led me to make this movie, because I saw that drop off and I saw the consequences of that in my local music scene, in the charities. I saw it across the board in different ways. Now to be an independent filmmaker today, that's where I am today. And my shoes, they're worn. And I like that. But one reason I'm here is I'm trying to get this movie out. I'm showing it to very small but interested groups. I'm going to, I'm traveling the nation, going to LPFMs as they, as they blossom, as they try to put that, you know, that antenna in the ground and helping them unite their audience. Because there's one thing that this movie does is it makes you very conscious of this communications medium that reaches everyone in a concentrated area called radio. That's what I'm doing now. Now this is not your first documentary. This is not my first documentary, but this is my first feature film that, you know, I'm the producer and director and I shot a lot of it on it. I wore a lot of hats on this one. And so where does the money come from for this? You know, when I work in this medium, I help other filmmakers. I helped Phil Donahue on his movie, Body of War. So, and I work with a lot of corporations too to help them get their message either out or within their microcosm of huge corporation. I do all these other things. I wear these other hats. I make films, fundraisers for nonprofits. So that pays my bills and it makes me also take longer to make a film. It took me seven years to make this film. It's a better film because of that for all kinds of reasons. Technology changed. TV is a different shape now than when I started. And I became much a better filmmaker as you watch yourself interview people over seven years. You make a lot of mistakes and you learn from those. So many folks who study media who sort of think about media would say that the way that you approach this seems to be somehow outside of the economic drive of capturing millions of audiences and raising millions of dollars. So how do you somehow fit outside of this model of economic drive? Why aren't you simply trying to make a lot of money and get people to watch, I don't know, another Superman movie or something? I am trying to make a lot of money and get people to do it. So what's happening here? I believe the depth of commercial radio and the depth of a lot of mediums we see, whether it's newspapers, a lot of it comes down to content. And if there isn't great content on that FM dial, you're not going to turn it on. And if you can afford it, you'll get one of those smartphones and figure out how to hook it into your car, if you can afford it. So but here I am, I'm creating content. And I know there is an intelligent audience out there that wants great entertaining content. So I believe that I'm on the path to making it somehow with this movie. I know it. I know it. You guys are smart. The audience is not fifth graders. And if they were, they'd still like it because I have to tell you that kids come up to me, high schoolers come up to me after screenings and they're like, whoa. You've got to show this to people. Because it matters to them that they get the latest and greatest thing. They want to hear the new song and they're ticked off that they can't. And isn't that a challenge? I mean, how do you show it to people? And would it be enough for you simply to put on a little clip on YouTube and maybe have people pay for it and how do you get it out to the masses of people? Right. The whole YouTube, put it on YouTube and they will come. That's a great dream. And it is a dream because you think about the internet and we'll just contrast it with radio. Radio, you have limited choices within that spectrum. You know within a minute or two whether there's anything you want on that dial, whereas the internet is infinite. You could go on for days and never find my clip, whether it's great or not. If I have some cats in it doing something that's kind of quirky, that becomes viral, then you're more likely to find it. So the internet is not broadcasting, it's narrow casting to interested groups. And luckily, my son Simon is here. And he is a demographic that unites, that creates new synergies through the internet. Because if there's a particular laughing cat or something that has a song behind it, I know all the fifth graders know it. That is the closest thing we have to broadcasting, that unites teenagers around a song. But it's not in a concentrated area, they're not all meeting together. They're not going to unite and become a grow up together that way. And transfer that unity to local bands, local charities. We don't have the unity. I think I went way off base from your question, I forgot. No, not at all. And so, what about art houses, just independent movie houses? I mean if YouTube is not the way for you to make money with this movie, why wouldn't a distribution, Miramax or Sony or someone else say what a great documentary. Let me just put this in all the independent film houses around the country. That could happen. That could happen. That could definitely happen. Part of it is I'm a Midwest filmmaker. I don't know the gatekeepers and what have you. And I'm also coming from the ground up. I've done a lot of small festivals. I didn't have a premiere at Sundance. And if you do a premiere at Sundance, and then that kind of opens you up to all the HBOs. Right now, I'm a guy sending them a letter and a DVD. And they're like, who are you? And I have a hundred other DVDs here, what do I do? So part of the reason I'm doing it every time I do this, I meet someone who's like, I can help you out. And that gets me miles ahead of me writing lots of letters and sending out DVDs. I can also get in my car and go around to art houses around the nation. They love showing stuff like this. And I get to speak to you guys and some of those art houses have really nice relationships with their audience where they just email out and they get a good audience there on top of the audience that I bring there. How many people are here because they read about me on the radio boards? Anyone here from the radio boards? I get some people from the radio boards. I did that two days ago. I posted something and I got someone here. Yeah, let's talk afterwards. So I have a very short, what do they call it? So you go to the movie theater and you see all these promotions for the next giant movie. So we have a little promotion for the giant movie coming up that we're going to show just for the audience here. And then let's talk a little bit about corporate FM. Okay. Okay. How do you think radio will be better? I'm sorry. Forgive me and my pastor and all them down at Christian Fellowship. Thank you. Wow. Fuck the radio. Contrary to much of the self-serving rhetoric, deregulation and the resulting consolidation of the radio industry has revitalized and perhaps saved an industry that I and many fellow Americans alike view as a national treasure. They don't have to keep the staff. They can run them all by remote control. They don't give a damn. The only thing they care about is having the opportunity to sell it. We bought too many properties and paid too much for them. We can't cover the debt. Who wins in a consolidation? Everybody's hungry. Fans are hungry. The fans are hungry for new music. The beauty of radio is that it's free and it's everywhere. My dream is to bring it back, local again, human. Now this is clearly a passion for you. This is not simply a money-making venture. You care about this. Why do you care about this? I grew up in a town where the local commercial radio station played local bands in rotation. When we get these LPFMs throughout the country, they will unite lots of small communities, but playing a band in rotation is something that only commercial radio can do because you would not want your small public radio station to play the same song over and over again. It's antithetical to diversity. So within the rotation of a normal rock schedule, they would throw in that local band, and they had, of course, a wider playlist than what we're hearing today. So it didn't burn you out. They did not burn out listeners. When that went away, just going out to a club where they might have 200 people on a Wednesday night suddenly became 30 people. I noticed this, and I knew there was a correlation. I think part of growing up as a military brat in a military base where the radio station, the Far East Network, as a kid, you could call in and request a song, I could see how that small act had ripples. People who had no idea who you were knew who you were just because you called into the radio station. So when that went away, I was sad. And I wanted to see what I could do to figure out why it was happening. And if it wouldn't have taken me seven years, I don't think we would have figured it out why. Because something wasn't making sense, because they're selling these stations for more and more money, but the audience is shrinking. So doesn't it make sense that they would sell for less? If the audience is shrinking, why does the station price go up? So one of the things that you and I have talked about before is the idea of local radio being almost a glue for local communities. We've done a program here about the importance of low-power FM. Does low-power FM sort of step into that void that corporate FM seems to have destroyed? Absolutely. It steps in the void, but it can't fill it. You can't fill 100,000 watts with how many watts is a low power? 100 watts. It would take a lot of low-power FM stations. But even then, they all have different contents. So you don't have that unity. What LP FM does that is awesome is it introduces music to the community that that jock at the commercial radio station might hear. And they could be either shamed into playing it, or they could play it out of love. It could happen. Also, LP FM exposes the media consolidation issue better than anyone else. You don't hear media consolidation. Even on NPR, it's not like a drumbeat. Whereas at LP FM, the reason they're there is they're because they're needed, because the big guys aren't filling the need for diversity. And there's a third thing LP FM does, and it's in my notes. It is. While I was listening to you guys talk, I made some notes. It'll come to me. We'll talk about it afterwards. One of the things that I know low-power FM does is provide a good training ground. Exactly. That was it. Thank you. Oh, Mark. Good to see you. So they provide an extraordinary training ground. And I think one of the things that's clear to me is that there are people in our community who really have a hunger to communicate. I think most of us as human beings have a hunger to communicate and to share our own passions about the music or some political idea that we have or become invested in somehow. And low-power FM certainly does that. But I think the point that you made about the idea that while low-power FM may step into the void, it does not fill that void. Why don't we screen the movie and after the movie see if we have some audience questions or concerns or challenges for you about what they've seen? So any final comments before questions? How many of you have different attitudes now or different thoughts about commercial radio now that you've seen this movie? And a lot of you guys are insiders too, which most of the time when I show this movie, it's the people who radio is wallpaper to them and all of a sudden they feel like something's been stolen from them. And that's why I encourage you to help me spread the message because you have the ability just by sharing this with someone through whatever means by doing that. And Simon here will be operating my merch table. He's my public relations officer as well. So also Simon and I are wearing t-shirts designed by our Kickstarter supporters, and he will have these as well. This is the voice tracking radio robot. He's running down the street and cash is coming out of his pockets because of all the money he's saving because of all the people that they fired. And he has Simon's wearing the gothic radio on American Apparel too, so they're nice. And I'm also going to pass around if any of you want to keep in touch and know more about what's going on. Here's some postcards, and if you want to send us your email if you want that as well. So any questions? Please. Thanks, Nick. OK. My name's Nancy McGuire, and I do science communications, so this is a little bit out of my bailiwick, but I'm very interested in this. I know you've mentioned that YouTube and the internet and all is spread too thin to really get the critical local mass, but do you see no possibility at all for the internet, especially the internet radio stations, to maybe come and get a foot in the door or maybe begin to fill this gap? Is there no possibility for that to take hold on a more local level? Sure. I think internet radio stations, in fact I'll tell you in the movie, there's that one fellow that had the shirt that said marijuana is my anti-drug at popfreeradio.com. He shut down that station when he had a baby, and he realized he couldn't make it on $200 profit a month on top of what he was, everything he put in it, he could not make it. Now if you were in Brooklyn and you have that, there's a great radio station, not in Brooklyn, in East Village. There's a great internet radio station that has a store front, so people walking by can see it, and that population also has these things, smart phones. Then there definitely is a possibility there if your whole audience is in their 20s and 30s. Yeah, I think it could work, but out for the rest of the continent, I don't see that happening. Not the way, and I'm not saying it's not impossible. No, you can have an internet radio station, there's plenty of them out there, but to have it to create local critical masses behind bands that are playing, I don't see that happening, no. It works, but it seems to me, essentially you're talking about changing a lot of congressional actions and activities, which takes a huge mass. So what would be the possibility or feasibility of your having some shortened version of this movie on like 60 minutes, or something on NPR? I think it's a very good avenue for this movie, is I cut it down to a 60, or even a 30, which wouldn't in that sense be. Yeah, that's a definite road for this movie, is I'm going to have to cut it down for Windows and call that different broadcasting Windows in the future. I will tell my co-filmmaker that you said that, because she has definitely been suggesting it, that I get on it now. But yeah, it's a good suggestion. How you doing, Maxie? I'm curious, there's an assumption, I guess, that radio survived television, and that it can survive the internet as well. And the challenge I have for that assumption is that television was a mass media as was radio. The internet is a different animal. And the kids coming up listen and expose themselves to media in a very different way than radio traditionally has done. So my question is not necessarily around how does that differ from the previous challenge. But more, what can hyper-local radio do to adopt some of the best practices of the internet to survive and thrive, if in fact the pendulum does swing back and it does surface? I think that's an excellent question, because a lot of commercial radio stations will say, hey, we just fired this lump of people here because we have the internet. We had to fire him. But any enterprising business is going to use the internet to gain audience. And one thing that, in fact, in the beginning, they were telling their jocks, don't push people to the internet because we want them to be on the radio. No, they need to be Facebooking, Twittering, and all that stuff to build their shows, to build their audience. It's absolutely hand in hand. The internet's a tool to be used. I think it's funny when there are companies that change their names from broadcast companies to media companies because that's actually watering down their brand. What makes them unique is that they're broadcast companies. Any one of us is a media company. You have a web page. My son, he's a media company with his, if you look at me. If he has a big enough presence, he has media. He is media. So yeah, absolutely. The internet is a tool to gain your audience. Hey, I work in media buying, so I kind of have a little different perspective than you were saying. I think, first of all, I want to say there was really a key insight in the movie is that localization is the future, not the past. And I think that gives me hope for radio going somewhere. I don't know if you're familiar with low power FM and what's happening there. I hope you're using this movie to promote that around the country because there's a bunch of licenses up. So if you want to be involved with the radio station, make sure to get hooked in with those folks. The question I have, though, is kind of along the lines of what you're just talking about. How do these radio stations integrate and adapt with the internet, and then kind of embrace the ethos of like HuffPo, which is doing patch? Or who's doing patch? Does anybody know? AOL Huffington Post. They're localizing, right? And I work for a guy named Jake Uger, who has a massive presence on YouTube. And he was really the first to adopt YouTube news, progressive news online before anybody was watching it, before it was making any money. So how can we adapt before it becomes the future? How can we create radio that works both online and on the airwaves and on Pandora, and really grab the reins of that before it becomes a big tidal wave? I mean, do you have any suggestions for that? Can you explain what patch is? Patch is like local. They do local news, so it's HuffPo doing local news. And they hire local reporters to do all local news all the time. And so I see an equivalent happening with both radio, which is just audio, and video, like YouTube. And I see all of those things working together in an ecosystem like you're saying. But how could somebody right now grab the reins of that before that wave comes in your mind, since you have so much experience with this? Well, you said the future is local, but actually the present is local. The present has always been local. And that's where it has driven a lot of these stations to the ground, is they forgot that, or it didn't matter because they were making their money through the fees of the finance industry. And it did not matter that their asset served its people or not. It did not matter that the asset made money. So really, to be ahead of the next wave really is to be part of what's happening now, to have your reporters in the field right now, to be giving, I don't believe you can create a station, or should create a station, well, that is both local and is trying to serve a different city at the same time. There is someone in that city that's going to do it better. But you could pool resources to where when there's stories in either city you are, as NPR does, you have the national network and you have your local reporters. That's the strength of NPR. That's why NPR listeners are so loyal, is because they know us, they know our communities, and they know the next community over. So we're not getting something watered down when it comes to world news or national news. Does that answer your question? DVDs and t-shirts are by donation. Have to push it. Otherwise, I have to get on the airplane with them and go back. Kevin, thank you very much. Thank you. It's been an honor. Yeah, thank you.