 Excellent. Thank you very much for the warm welcome. I know I was using my fingers and my toes to count the years. You'll quickly learn in any of the conversations, if it gets really technical, has anything to do with math or coding, or you'll see me go really quiet, there'll be no smile. Just big eyes and I'll say something like, let me introduce you to my colleagues, who can answer those kind of questions. What I am going to be sharing today is wondering and learning. I'm going to be going through some of the processes. I had a chance yesterday to talk about some of the work that's happening within Learn Moodle, but today I really want to focus on a few things. I want to focus on some of the things that I have personally gone through, how it sits in relation to my experiences, my studies, my work, and then going to take a little bit of a shift and start thinking about and sharing how that impacted my role as an educator. Then I am also going to try to put it in a local context, and so that the hope is that there's something in these stories, and I'll share some stories, I'll share three stories. Hopefully there'll be something there that you can bring back home. Again, with that, intend to inspire and not impose. I absolutely love that saying, a good friend of mine uses that, his name is Dwayne Donald, and he talks about when we're meeting and we're gathering, and we're bringing different people together, what is it like when we can have those deep dialogues and conversations where the intent is to inspire and not impose our way of thinking on someone else. That's truly my intent today, and I look forward to continuing the conversations as we go. Similar to yesterday, I'm going to be sharing some photographs that I've taken, and I'll start off quickly showing you the four photographs and telling you the story of the photograph, and then we'll step back and go back into the three stories. This photograph represents the self, so there's one single flower here, and I actually took that photograph right outside of Versailles in Paris, France, and as I've been exploring some of my family history, a lot of my family does go back to France in the 1600s, and so being there was really cool to see the places where in 1590 one of my great-grandfathers was born, and to be in the places where I was teaching about when I was a high school social studies and history teacher, like to be standing in the foyer of what I used to just talk about. It was a completely different experience being there in the place and in the territory in the land where that happened. The second photograph is what that flower and what that looked like in relationship to the others, to where it was from and looking at that bouquet, that bouquet of experience and everything that surrounded it, because that equally tells as much about the single flower. Here's another example where you'll realize I don't have that much of a space awareness. I decided to blow this photograph up to put into my kitchen, and I was just scrolling through and I saw the examples, well, I'm like, yeah, that'll be good. That'll be good. That's like a size of a tiny blanket. Well, my goodness, it filled up the whole wall in my room. Now I have lots of things to think about when I look at this photograph and hopefully you will too. This third photograph is about footsteps, and it's also about the role and the mark and the imprints that we leave. This photograph was taken in Waterton, Alberta, it's part of the traditional territory of the Blackfoot people, the indigenous people, close to where I live, and I use this as a reminder, especially when I'm thinking about my role as an educator, and what kind of footprints am I leaving, and thinking about my students and the people that I work with, and what is really my role in supporting their learning and their success. This final photograph I took a few days ago, when we went to one of the, I took a few days ago, when we went to one of the temples, and it was just sitting there. Everyone's looking at these beautiful, the buildings and all of the people and the scenery, and this little flower just really stood out. That came right there from that land and that spot. When I'm talking about what does it look like in your local context, I'm also making those connections to being here today and to have this time for us to be able to meet and to talk. So now I'm going to quickly slip back. Okay. So self-enrelation to my own history. So I'm 13th generation French-Canadian, and I've been a student, I studied history, I studied education, and I also studied indigenous education in my work. Then in my thesis, Martin talked about that it was about creating structures and models, and looking at professional learning, also looking at the role of leadership, and looking at how can indigenous methodologies help provide voice for the community members as well as students and youth. So my own history actually is the story of colonization. When I look at my family members who came from France, and I look at my family members who came from indigenous communities in Canada, I find I'm constantly navigating where I've come from, and where I am at that moment. I think sometimes that helps, especially when I'm thinking about, what is my role as an educator, what is my role in transformational change, and what is that process of leaving what I've always known and what I've always done to trying something new? So that makes me think of the story of colonization, and also the role of education. How can education decolonize? How can we look at ways of transforming education to really empower not only educators, but students as well? As a researcher, I find a lot of hope in the global conversations that are happening. When we talk about things like the sustainable development goals, that is really where I draw a lot of inspiration. When we put what we're doing in relationship to community members around the world. I like thinking about what it looks like when we give voice to the people that we're working alongside, and also finding ways that we can continue to stay connected. Finally, this local context being here in Mumbai, and to spend this time, I'm really grateful, and I also feel that responsibility to be able to respectfully share. Again, this goes back to my intent to inspire and to not impose. So I'm going to talk a little bit about the sustainable development goals. As a single mother, I experienced some financial hardship when I was supporting my children, being a student, working some crazy jobs, working multiple jobs, and it was one of the first times that I experienced just one level of poverty in a different way. I found that I was very fortunate we had a social system in Canada that was able to help support me. I called it we were a food bank poor, which means there was a food bank that we could go, and there was food available, there were supports available, and there was community support as well. The real turning point for me from going from that situation was actually getting my education degree. It was my second degree, my history degree had some more limited work options, an education degree and being able to be a teacher really made a significant difference in how I was able to care for my children, and the home I was able to provide, and the opportunities that I could provide for them. I think whether you're just struggling with poverty, or you're looking at poverty at different levels, education is often that turning point, and it's where something that we have in common being here and being connected with Moodle. How can we be empowering ourselves as educators to be able to help others go through that turning point to find success, whatever that success means to them? Now the kind of poverty experience wasn't the extreme poverty that the sustainable development goals address. So in the documents and in the resources, the very first goal is addressing poverty. And in the resources it talks about things that we can do. How can we address the issue of poverty? And there are three things that really resonate with me. The three things, share intergenerational knowledge. That's one of the things that they talk about. How do we address poverty? And this can be a message to youth, it can be a message to teachers, it can be a message to business owners, anyone in the community. One of the things you can do is be sharing intergenerational knowledge. So thinking about what does that look like when you're the teacher, you're the facilitator? What does it mean to share your story and your experiences with your students? Even telling my students, because I used to tell them, you know, yeah, yeah, we were food bank poor and sharing our experiences and then I share what a difference it made being a teacher and being their teacher and in that classroom. I had so many students come to me afterwards and say, yeah, that's me too. You know, I'm thinking about going to this or doing this or looking, you know, after high school, this is what I want to do. And so it becomes that entry point. Sharing that intergenerational knowledge and sharing your personal narrative in your story. The second thing that the Sustainable Development Goals recommend for addressing poverty is encouraging innovation and critical thinking. I thought that was interesting because sometimes you want the answer. You want the specific, give me a list of things I can do, things, you know, policies I can put in place and then, you know, I can contribute to this. But there isn't that list. There were some ideas and some suggestions and encouraging innovation and critical thinking is something that we can all do. And you know, as we've had these conversations yesterday, especially when we talked about innovation and what does innovation actually look like? What does it look like when it's a process? When you can say you are being innovative. You're not just bringing in one simple thing or one complex process. The third thing that they talk about is supporting transformational knowledge. And so this is again where we start talking about that process of change. And those came out in our comments yesterday as well. What does it look like when we shift? What's going to happen? Where do we find our support? So where do we find our mentorship? And I think when we're looking at it in terms of Sustainable Development Goals and poverty, it brings us back to education. And really what does that mean? In the UNESCO resources and UN resources, they talk about quality education to ensure inclusive and quality education for all and to promote lifelong learning. And I think that's something that we all have a role in whether you're in the K to 12 in higher education and universities and colleges or whether you're representing the workforce. I think there's something that we can always look at. How we can use the things that we've learned along the way and share those with others to support their learning. So in my different roles as a professional learning facilitator, I've been designing programs and curriculum back at home in my province. And there are two activities that I've really found have had a huge impact. And one of them is called the Brain Architecture Game. And then the other one is the Community Action Poverty Simulation. And what's significant about these is that experiential learning. When you're playing the Brain Architecture Game, you're sitting around a table with other educators. And you're quite literally doubt life experience cards. And the intent of the game is to show how toxic stress impacts brain development. How does toxic stress and early life experience really impact a child? And so you play this game and if you get positive life experiences, you get better building materials because you're literally building your brain. And the taller it is, the smarter you are. But the more sturdy it is, the more resilient you are. So what happens when you have a group of educators together building this game is the dialogue that happens when you come across these life experiences and you're able to share or to talk about it. But then you're also able to make that connection in a deeper way. When you start to see some of these brains who have had great supports and they've got great building materials. It's these impressive little structures that you're making with pipe cleaners and straws. And then others that will topple over and fall over. And inevitably someone always says, it's not my fault, it's the cards I was dealt. And then you realize, yeah, that's the story for a lot of our students who are in our classrooms, whether they're there as children or as adult learners. You know, their learning path and the things that they need, the responsive educational programs that they need might look different. So that's one example. When you're actually in the game, you're starting to make those connections and it's that experiential learning. The community action poverty simulation is the same kind of idea where you're completely immersed in an experience. And you're going through and you're living a week in poverty. And what I found that really helped, sorry, you're living a month in poverty. So you're given a role and you're given a family and you're given a job and you go through this. And as you're going through week by week and when things are happening, you're trying to manage and you're trying to figure all of these things out. What happens when you have a group of educators who have no personal experiences where they've never struggled with food security issues or shelter or providing clothing for their families? For just one hour, they have a chance to go through that experience. And then with both of these activities, afterwards you spend all of this time debriefing, talking about all the resources that are in the community. You get the people who are there to share, you know what, I represent this organization. If you come across somebody who needs these kinds of services, this is what we can do. Please keep in touch, keep in contact with me. Or you can share online resources or go to people in the community that they can turn to. What those have in common is kind of thinking about, when we're looking at sustainable development goals and we have the opportunity to learn together and then to be able to reflect and debrief and dialogue. I think there are a lot of opportunities and I do find a lot of hope in thinking, what does that look like? In terms of the local context, yesterday we talked about some things and some of the comments that came out were about project-based learning. And so I was thinking about the brain architecture game, like what would it look like? And again, I'm putting on my Learn Moodle hat here. What would it look like if we had a chance to play the brain architecture game and then take that experience? What would that look like in Moodle? How would we facilitate that using all of the Moodle tools and resources? What would that look like if it was strictly online? How could we adapt what we have available to create that experience? Or what if it was blended learning and we wanted a space to continue the conversations and to hold the resources so that the activity didn't just end there, but that we were able to extend it? And so yesterday when I heard those comments about the project-based learning, that really, again, that connection to that hope and to that thinking, and like I called this presentation, that wandering and wandering. We often don't come with a checklist of you have to do this, this, and this. It's that process of engaging with each other and building on each other's experiences and comments and feedback that we can start to think perhaps in a different way. The next thing, the next story I wanted to share a little bit about is the story of Moodle. So I first started using Moodle. My first Moodle Meet was actually in 2006, and I was just a brand new teacher and the tech guys from around the other edge of the school said, hey, there's a conference. Why don't you come? And so I went and that was the very first time that I started, you know, we walked into this room and there were all of these desktop computers that were all plugged in. The room was, you know, a little bit warmer than your hottest day over here. It was lots of electricity in the room, but it was so fun to be sitting alongside everyone because everyone was new and everyone was learning. This many years later, I still feel like there's so much I don't know, but the more painful part is now I know I don't know it. And so really constantly situating myself in the role of the learner and continuing that learning and professional growth. And I think that's really important to start thinking about ourselves as learners and taking that time and space. When I look at, you know, what is learning about Moodle and how does all of this connect? It really does connect with the moots. One of the things I think about a lot is how does knowing relate to understanding? How does knowing relate to understanding? Because really if you want to know anything about Moodle, there are Moodle docs, there are videos, you can hear the voice of Moodle with Mary Koot, there's lots of opportunities. But it's nothing like that deep level of understanding when you're with other people and learning alongside everyone. And I think that's really important. I think about what can that look like in Moodle moats and how do you bring that back to the education communities that you come from? Because I truly believe that when we're here, we can take what we know or what we've tried and we can reach that deeper level of understanding of what it actually could look like for you. But then also you start to consider, how does that impact my role? I start thinking about my role as an educator differently. And this is where we return to the story of colonization. When we look at colonization, it has a complex story where a lot of people have been marginalized, they've been silenced, they've been disregarded or unrepresented. I like to think about what does it look like when people can see themselves represented in the work and in the learning? And so I strive to find ways that people can see, what does education mean to them and what kind of supports do we have in place? And it's important to me that the work that we're doing really is empowering your own vision of success. So we do focus a lot on the process. So these are processes that you can bring back. And I also like thinking about what happens when you're equally learning as much as you are teaching and educating and the importance of that voice. And so yesterday, I really appreciate, I went back to my room and I had all of this valuable feedback from your comments. So thank you very much for taking the time to do that. And I wanted to save some time today to share some of the feedback that came back so that you can hear your voice represented in how we're moving forward. When we were at the Miami Mute, we did a similar process where on one day we went through workshop, we had actually a longer workshop and we got a lot of really great feedback. And then we were able to take that information, gather it, go through, do a data analysis and come up with some key findings. So right away after that mute, we heard from the people that were there and we asked the what if question. So the what if question people were saying, oh, we need exemplars. We need exemplars, we need to know like, what does it look like when you're using this tool in all the ways that the tool can actually help teaching and learning? And I heard that echoed yesterday as well. We want the exemplars. The other thing that came up was the videos. Like we want some how-to videos, like just show us. Don't just tell us, don't just give us the step-by-step, like show us what do the videos look like. And so we've responded and we're going to be having some of those instructional videos in our Learn Moodle program. Another thing that came up, people were looking to see not only just what's possible, but the full spectrum of what's possible. So we're able to find innovative ways to do that. So a lot of the things that came up, definitely I heard yesterday as well. But when we asked the question, what if? When we asked what if you could have access to any resource, what would that be? And one of the significant things that came out of yesterday were concrete resources. Wanting to have, give us a manual. Give us the process steps articulated. Give us guides navigating Moodle. Give us a sample course. Give us a sample school site. Give us a printed resource. And again, give us those videos. Those videos are really helpful to be able to see, to hear, and to read, and to be able to go step-by-step at your own pace. So again, Moodlers around the world are echoing some of the same things. And it really helps when you're starting with that blank slate to create a program, to really make sure that it's serving the needs of Moodlers. The second thing that came up was that social and experiential learning. When people are in Moodle, they want to know, how do we actually have a learning experience? Rather than downloading a document, doing a quiz, getting a grade, and exiting. What is it like when we have that learning experience? And so that's pretty exciting to think about the opportunities and it's very inspiring to think, okay, well what could we do? And that really sparked some of my thinking again when I was explaining the brain architecture game, how much fun that would be to work with teachers to do that. The third thing that came out of your what if, what if you could have any resource? The third thing that came out really strong in all of the comments was professional learning. You know, really looking to see, okay, what's the next step? More, I want more. Where can we go? Where can we sign up? So definitely feeling that need and that request, looking for the workshops, looking for the programs and the courses. The second question was if only. So if only you could change one aspect, or if only you could have any opportunity, what would that be? And so some of the things that came up were some of the logistics of dealing with a Moodle course. So looking at how can we sequence, drag and drop, what does it look like if it's, if we can use a planning tool, like a Trello tool? People were looking at designing experience. So like what is it like? I'd never really thought about course design. What are some different ways that we could do that? How do I learn more specifically about course design? And how does that relate to the Moodle tools and resources? So that was one of the comments. And then also again, professional learning came up. You know, how do we learn more? How can we take what we're learning here and bring it back to our education communities? And I think that voice really resonates with me because I know I've been the one person who goes to the conference and has like, all these fantastic ideas. And you just want to run with them. So what does that process look like if you're the person, if you're the voice in your school community or your education institute or your training institute? And I think that looking to see how we can stay connected is a common experience for educators because often we're the only person or it's a small team or there's that sense of isolation in the work that you're doing. And I think that's a lot where we can gather a lot of strength from the Moodle community. The other thing that came out when we looked at significant findings, one was considering student voice and different perspectives. And I think that's an interesting opportunity. People, the comments that came back, looking at the feedback process, I never thought of, how do I know if I'm successful? There was one comment about, oh, I hadn't actually thought to ask the students. And so that's really valuable. You never know where one little idea can change. So thinking about what does that look like back in your work. One of the other significant findings was you're feeling not alone. Like to hear the experiences of everyone else and then making those connections and that follow up afterwards, hearing somebody say, oh, yeah, we've done this. This is what we did. And I've seen that time and time again at Moodle Moods, just that openness and that sharing. Other significant findings, just that sense of being ready to share and feeling that as a group and as a Moodle community here in India, looking at the scope of Moodle and the power of Moodle. And I'm pretty excited today with a list of presentations that are coming up. I think every presentation, I know for myself I'm thinking, how can I take that and put this right away? Like I want to run with it right away. Looking at the scope and also rethinking. Rethinking based on feedback and the process that we shared yesterday. And finally, digital content with pictures. So thank you for that comment. And I think that's something again that we can bring back when we look at our own course design. So those were the findings that came back from all of the significant comments and the work that everyone put in. And it doesn't mean that the conversation is over. Definitely encourage you to connect with our education team to be able to continue and to look ahead. So as we go through the rest of today and as you go through the rest of the sessions, I really want you to think about how you continue the conversations at the Moodle party. And when we leave, hopefully it's a matter of saying until I see you again, whether it's in the forums or social media or at another Moodle boot. And I've saved some time in case there are any questions or comments or if there's something that sparked your thinking today that you'd like to share with the group. Excellent, yep. With all the insights that you gave about social learning, integrating social learning, giving demos, showing video, practical exercises, experiments, forums, getting feedback from the student and all of that. I think one of the most important aspect that is not being covered is, is not actually with the Moodle. Moodle is, as a tool, we can do a lot with it. But even before that, widely the education system here or in most places, it is always a fight or race between education and certification. Unless we focus on education, that certification, I think no matter what we do, it'll never be enough. And also, believe it's, any tool is mostly bunch of code. With a community such as Moodle, it would be always possible to resolve a technical issue or a technical gap to fulfill that. But widely that gap is never filled, so far in my view, is because the political will of educators, like us, not going to the step where truly educating the users, but we focus more because of, for so many reasons, on getting the certification right. But once we start focusing on educating the users, the technology gap will definitely fill and all of this will become a reality in no time almost. It's just my view. And I think you brought up a really important point because it's defining what does success mean. Understanding yet the certification pieces there, that's something that you're absolutely need to address as the foundation of the system. But it's also exploring, just because that system is in place, it doesn't mean that you yourself as an educator can't go through that own professional learning, that professional personal growth to think about what you can do differently next time and where you can take in the voice of your students into that process. But yeah, I agree. I think wherever that focus is, if you start to shift that focus, that's a key part of that change process for sure. Thank you. So I just want to add and maybe you can comment on it. I think Professor has a point to make that we have to do a paradigm shift from certification to education. But I think we should also look at any tool like Moodal also as an enabler in that shift. For example, when personal vehicles were invented, a personal vehicle just did not become another tool of transportation. It also brought a lot of psychological social changes in the mindset of people. The very concept that I can go out of my home at 10 p.m. in the night to some remote place and have a dinner, that very concept can come into existence only when I have a tool like a personal vehicle, maybe a motorbike or a car. So in a sense when we bring educators also, educators to a tool like Moodal, it is also a step in that direction of doing that, changing the political way of thinking about education as you mentioned. So I think both have a relationship, the tool and its impact. So we should look at Moodal as an enabler in that paradigm shift and not like, first people have to change their way of thinking and then they will come to Moodal. So I think it's both a give and take game and it will continue like that. Kind of relates to, when you look at the words, empowering educators, is empowering a verb? Are you empowering educators or are you an empowering educator? Are you talking about the act of finding ways to help support teaching and learning? Or are you talking about a group of people who are empowering educators in what they do and how they approach teaching and learning and the roles that they have in that process? So like you were talking about that physical transportation, sometimes it's taking the same exactly what you have and looking at it in a different way, absolutely. Madam, one more doubt. I have, like we are having assessments in the Moodal, generally it is a kind of formative assessment. So how do we incorporate summative assessments where the written matter can be tested? So generally the practice in India is like written tests. So is there any tool we can develop so that that part also can be addressed? Just wanna make sure I have the question right. So how can we go beyond just the testing to find out about the student learning? There are two kinds of assessments we are having, formative and summative. So in the formative, we'll be having just objective type questions or something. Whereas in summative, we'll be having a written contents. They are the descriptions of the answers in the description or descriptive forms. So how we can actually make the system in the Moodal so that instead of manual correction of the paper, is it possible to have computerized correction? That's, because it will be basically reducing the burden of the teachers and biasing also. Yesterday we saw one of the presentations from our middle education lead, Tom Murdoch. And he showed the steps that are in the Learn Moodal program where first of all, here are the examples of what it looks like. And then you have design challenges where it is that summative and formative piece because you can continue doing it until you're achieving a success, especially within those self-paced and self-regulated courses. So there's that support right there when you need it. And if you wanna go back and review before trying again. And so sometimes it isn't, this is a formative assessment. It might be a formative process that you can go through. And when you're looking at, okay, now I've achieved success. Here is an example. Here is a collection of all the different ways that I demonstrated success in all of my learning in this module. So that's definitely built in. Again, the Learn Moodal program has been designed with both teaching and learning, understanding that it's educators who are taking some of these courses. So they need to be able to take this and apply it to their teaching, but also where they're the ones going through the professional learning themselves. So yes, hopefully we've addressed that. We'd love your feedback on that. Hello. Yes. Hello. Yeah. Back here. Hello. Like, it's better. We don't have an automated assessment there because we won't know the innovation which our student is having. Many answers, if you go through the answers, rather than having automation, it's always a better thing. You should be knowing your students, how they think. So against automation of those kind of things, descriptions. Because that's the place where the student is able to show his innovation and it won't be possible for you to know what innovations they're thinking about. So don't avoid. It's your job to know your students. Hi, yeah. Not connected to any of this, mostly to your presentation. You were speaking about social learning, cultural learning. In my experience, a lot of difficulties that at least we seem to face here in India is multicultural learning. For example, I mean, I'm not sure, many of the teachers who are teaching locally may not face very vast differences. For example, a lot of the local cultures, how should I put it? There's dialects or there's certain small cultural mindsets. So most of the people who live here are exposed to those small differences and are able to deal with it. But when it comes to larger differences, an Indian mindset, having an Indian educator, having to teach, say, an African student or an American student, they need to first assimilate American or African culture through their own Indian culture and upbringing. And that does, that puts either a twist to the American or African culture. And it does, it flavors the teachings that are coming out, the strategies that are coming out. So what are your views or what are in fact even Moodle's views on this flavor? Is it needed or should it be avoided for more effective teaching and learning? Great question. And I think that that's a common story in many different areas when you're bringing, whether it's indigenous and non-indigenous or local and people who are from away, when you're bringing those people together, what is that role and what's the process? And I know from my experience working in Canada, it's been with indigenous and non-indigenous education. And what does it look like when you can bring people together and look across the table and acknowledge the difference, acknowledge that you each have your own story? Without needing to, and I'm going to quote again, Dwayne Donald, without the need to assimilate, hybridize or conclude, what does it look like when you can create that space, that ethical space of engagement where you can just listen and hear their stories? And what does it look like when you can braid together those stories in a collective way that helps supports the teaching and learning that's happening in that space? So today was an example of what that looks like in terms of a methodology called indigenous metisage. So taking three different strands or four different strands and braiding them together as an educational resource and as a tool and as a praxis to help inform others. So maybe there was something in my personal stories that you connected with or maybe it was something with the sustainable development goals and how we can contribute to our community that connected or maybe it was something that we have in common like Lutl that connected with you. So I think if you take at it from your own self and then you put yourself in relation to the community that you're in, then you start thinking about what's your role in that community. And then finally, what is the local context? So those were the four different pieces to each strand of my story. And so that's one way that you can approach that when you're bringing together different cultures and different classrooms and when you're dealing with educators who sometimes realize, oh, I know I don't know about this. How can I help support them? And I know often sometimes they'll look at, oh, we have to close the gap. We have to close the gap. And my response and a large impetus for my thesis has been when you can recognize that the gap is within the system supports, within the capacity of the educators to understand. And that's the obstacle that we need to overcome is building our own understanding first before we can create the space for those students. So professional learning is one way, but then also using tools that create that space by design. And that's why Moodle means so much. By design, it's created. So how can we share our perspectives and learn from each other? And consider our own personal beliefs in a different way. But that's right in our Moodle philosophy. And so I think when you start looking about, you know, why Moodle or how does Moodle support this work? It does by design, by all of the tools that are in there and ways of putting them together. So I don't know if that was a really long-winded answer, but for your question, but I think when you're bringing those different cultures together, it has to begin on that personal journey and acknowledging that what you don't know. I'd like to tap on your experience in a particular area. One of the major, when you go to evangelize and find out how online teaching could spread, one of the major mental blocks of new institutions is the fact of plagiarism. I know when we were being validated by the London Metropolitan University, the first thing they came and said, how are you sure that students are not plagiarizing and getting certificates without really studying? There's another problem that we, when you speak about localization in India, everyone's interested in education for what purpose? To get a certificate, to get a degree, not for knowledge sake. How do we overcome this based on your experience? Over to you. I think when it comes down to certification, it's, you know, what is the opportunity that's within that certification? And what does that really mean? Because sometimes when we look at professional learning, there may not be a certification, you just want to do better. Like what is it really about and what does that level actually empower somebody to do? When it's about that plagiarism, I think that's part of the shift. I think that's part of the shift in, you know, having one right answer, having one person who knows the information, who gives it to the others. And it's looking really at that social constructionism. What does it look like when we work together? And finding different ways, you know, for example, using the arts. You know, what does it look like when somebody can have an aesthetic expression of their understanding where the role of the facilitator isn't to look at the composition and say, you know, that that's a 73%. But instead to look at the reflection from the student who has said, this represents this, this represents this in a way, whether it's APA format or whatever is required by that institution. But it's just finding ways for students to have that voice. I think if you give that voice, then they aren't as tempted to take the voice of others through plagiarism. Hi. Over here? Yeah. From the little bit that I've read, I understand that research shows that when you write and learn, students find it easier to remember. They retain more than when they type or when they swipe on their phones. So that's on one side. On the other side, we have our parents who in our curriculum, we switched about two years ago to the way we deliver learning offline itself. And that meant less writing. And after that, we had a lot of parents coming up and saying, why are you not giving anything to our students, to our children to write? You know, which is, I don't know, I can't understand it personally because I'm a digital person. I do everything online as much as possible. What would you say if we have to shift to module? There's less writing on paper, obviously. Maybe we can even move to a place where there's no writing on paper required. But how do you address these two points? The challenge of parents, especially in our country, I don't know about other countries, wanting more writing for their children. And on the other hand, children being unable to retain as much. I think the difference was, they're able to retain about 56% when they type and 74% when they write. Something like that. That's... I think this is one opportunity where you can look at some of the process steps we talked about yesterday. And looking for the answers about what works best with the people that you're working with. So instead of looking, you know, perhaps only at the research, start looking at what are the experiences of the people in the program? How do they learn best? If they learn best with writing, what does it look like if you take a quick, you know, photograph of what they've written and then upload that as an electronic copy? And I'm the same. I draw things like I see them visually, then I have to work it out and then try to find the words for them afterwards. So I think there's a way, there are different ways that we can do that within Moodle. But again, it goes back to that process of, you know, if you wanna find out what's working, include that student perspective in that work. Can I add, answer that to Dan? So the thing is that when you're running an institution or you're an educator, you cannot give in to the demands of the parents. If you have some conviction on what you're doing, the parent has to be told that it's historically proven that, you know, there are certain skills that are gonna become redundant. So we face these same challenges. But if you've taken strong positions that writing is not gonna make anyone more intelligent, I totally disbelieve your study that people learn more when they write and less when they type. So when you see data like this, you can be a little bit critical of it. And the truth of the matter is that you are, it is not A versus B versus C versus D, right? I mean, we are all using multiple tools, whatever is relevant to your point. Yesterday, Kalpana shared that all the tests for law are online. And one of the struggles they had that the children have never seen a machine cannot do higher education. So a child in my village who only went to a Zillaparish at school would not be able to become a lawyer simply because they've never typed anything and of course never studied in English. Can you also understand that all the higher education exams whether you want to become a doctor or a lawyer are in English and are online. So which world are we living in? I mean, what is writing gonna do to you? So we have elaborate discussions with our parents saying that if you want to make your child write from when he's four in kindergarten, go to that school. Don't come to us. So as an institution, if you are taking technology, you have to take certain strong decisions. Parent to parent community has to agree with you. Otherwise they can go to some regular school which is doing that and has not yet moved. So, and writing is not, writing with a pen or typing is not a sign of intelligence. What you actually write, whether you're writing, the pen or the laptop is a tool. So this kind of explanations must be given to parents and this mindset must be broken. Otherwise we're just, we're never gonna move ahead. Okay, so, you know, so this is a very small challenge than it is overcome very easily. So, yeah. I think the key point is also looking at what is the goal and what is the intent? And even whether it's, you know, if we look at the European digital framework for, European framework for digital competencies and you look through and you go through that list, part of that is thinking how are you providing learning activities, learning opportunities for people to address those competencies? But then the other part of that is the teaching aspect where you're collecting evidence that they can successfully demonstrate achievement in those competencies. So it's separating that teaching and learning. If somebody in their learning wants to draw, I don't think that, you know, I think that you can create spaces if you're using a little environment where that isn't the factor, because that's not the intent. We're here to build those digital competencies or we're here to address the content that's in there where it doesn't matter if technology is a part of it or not. Learning has to be the driving force. And you need to know what those outcomes are and your intent of the reason why. I don't know if I complicated that one or helped to clarify. I think we're just coming up to the end of time. So thank you very much.