 Hello, and welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookie Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, how much of ourselves should we bring to the workplace? And I'm in conversation with Lisa Cherry. So I'm Lisa Cherry and I'm a trainer and speaker on trauma recovery and resilience. So the episode topic today is about how much of ourselves we should bring into the workplace, which is something we've talked about a little bit in the last podcast we did together and we talked about it a bit on and off in between, but I think it's a really big and thorny topic. I don't know what your opening take is on it and how much you want to share about your journey and stuff. Yeah, I mean, God, it is a really big and thorny question. And I guess I would start off by saying that we bring all of ourselves into our work, whether we do that consciously or not. And I think that's the key, really, that there's this idea that somehow you can separate yourself out. But actually, I would be more inclined to feel that there is a conscious, a consciousness about what you do, or there isn't. And regardless of where you are on that journey, you're still going to be bringing all of yourself to work. So I think the more important question for me is how do you develop a consciousness about who you are? How do you get to know who you are so that you can bring your best self to work? Ah, okay, that's really interesting. And which parts of ourselves do you think are kind of relevant there? Because I've come into this with a view on, you know, experience of mental health issues or other adversities that we might be supporting the people in our care with. But using your idea there, that could be kind of any part of us, couldn't it? It might be, well, yeah, which must matter. So I think, if I think about my own experience of working in social work settings and education settings as somebody who was care experienced, but not just care experienced, a whole range of things that came with that experience that I carried a lot of shame about in a professional context. So I'm very comfortable being this vulnerable with you, but I don't want to do this without acknowledging that this takes a level of vulnerability that I'm comfortable with. But when I worked in those spaces, I was also very aware that I had been homeless. I was very aware that I went to AA meetings. I was very aware that I had lived in residential homes and foster homes. And I was very aware that talking about any of those things was not likely to end up in a satisfactory conversation. And by satisfactory, I mean that on the odd occasion when I did mention it, I felt that it just was a very uncomfortable interchange with the other person, as if it was something strange or unusual that I was there in a professional capacity. I don't feel like it was managed well, it was handled well. And as such, it just silenced me. And the problem with the silencing and we talked about this in our conversation on my podcast. The problem with that is that there are less opportunities then to confront those aspects of yourself that you're bringing to work. So it's a kind of double edged sword in a way that you can't bring yourself to be in spaces that are appropriate to work with who you are because you're working with other humans. So by definition, you're being having your buttons pushed and there's material galore. And so what happens is you still bring all of that stuff, except that there's not an explicitness about it. And for me, I think I would say that there wasn't necessarily the consciousness about it was that I didn't want anyone to know about it. If that makes sense, there wasn't a consciousness about the impact of it. And where I was on that particular recovery journey. The consciousness was that this doesn't feel so. So let's just stuff it down and not deal with it. Wow. So you were presumably inspired to do a lot of the work that you choose to do, which isn't easy, because of your experience. But yet you didn't feel you could share it, or is that not right? Yeah, I'd say that's yeah, I feel like my whole my whole working life path was set in motion. The moment I was born in a mother and baby unit, you know, I just and I feel so grateful and lucky that those experiences created a pathway that aligned with my passion. The, you know, whatever it is that makes you do the things that you do. Absolutely those personal experiences offered me. I suppose career ideas. You know, if you've never been around a social worker as a young person, why would you think I want to be a social worker, you know, you're going to have been exposed for some reason in some way to different types of work, which is one of the reasons why education is so full of inequity but that's for another story but there are things that I was exposed to that showed me that I wanted to do those things with that wonderful youthful arrogance of I will go into the system and I will fight it from the inside rather than fighting it from the outside. As, as, as one feels when we're younger, you know, not feel like that now. I guess it's a different energy. Of course, I'm still him wanting to make a difference. That's what gets me out of bed. There's no question about that. But is it still driven with that kind of, I can't fight it from the outside so fight it from the inside. Absolutely. For a start, I don't necessarily see myself as fighting. That energy has changed. And that might just be a perception might be that other people see, see what I do is fighting, but I don't, I doesn't feel like that. Yeah, I mean, certainly creating, making things be better is that is the key driver still. Absolutely. So in terms of your experience and how that has sort of shaped the route that you've taken then it sounds like it's about your experience not necessarily having been wholly good and you wanting it to be different for other people in that situation or was there some of you know you had great experiences and you would like to echo those. No, I think there was a real understanding from a very young age in the system that systems themselves were not necessarily in a position to heal support healing from trauma and actually often added to trauma. And that was something that I think I understood really very quickly, maybe by about 16 actually. Yeah. And that felt very wrong to me that felt. And I think I recognize that there were people within the system that were really like amazing people. Yeah. Despite the system. It's a really difficult one isn't it because when you start talking about systems it's almost like you forget that there are humans in that system. And I guess it's always a balance and sometimes I think systems are more powerful than the people in them. Yeah. And did you ever experience anyone who kind of touched your life because they did bring their own experience into their work. Oh, that's a very good question. No. No. No, I didn't. And I think social work was very caught up in separating personal and professional. Yeah, this idea that you're somehow don't have a personal. Yeah. And also not really a structure and framework for how you bring your personal safely into work. Yeah. I didn't meet other people like me. Even though I'm very aware that there must have been other people like me milling around who also felt that there weren't other people like them. But no, I didn't really. That's interesting isn't it. I think so you must have, you must have, did you feel a bit alone. I think the whole experience is very full of isolation. And again, I think that's that's down to the system and I was talking about that this week in a project that I've been doing in collaboration with the Care Leaves Association and the Department for Education which is very much around thinking about how you create sustainable long term. Relational opportunities for young people. Yeah. So that there can be those connections and that people don't have to feel so alone and I do think things are a bit better with social media now. But certainly when I was coming out of that system and for a number of years afterwards. No people like me. No. And I think when I think about that. There's something really powerful about wandering around thinking that there's just you. Yeah. And even going to uni. I think the statistic back then was one percent of people who'd come out of care went to university. That statistic did not make me feel connected. It left me feeling very alone. And when I talked about the experience of being in care at university. Nobody really knew what I was talking about. And I don't think that's changed massively. I think unless you're speaking regularly to lots of people with different life experiences. It's very difficult to know and understand. Yeah. What that experience is like what the experience I think the most defining element of that is just being separated from your birth family. In whatever context whether that's because you've been had to be separated or because you've been relinquished or whatever terminology you want to use. There is something incredibly defining about that experience that feeds a whole range of narratives about your worth about your value about how important you are about how lovable you might be. And we carry those narratives then into adulthood and they take a long time to unpick. Yeah. And there's a massive challenge in there isn't there. It's just sort of triggered a thought for me. One of my daughters is adopted and there was recently a situation at school whereby she's at quite a new school. And all our friends kind of suddenly found out in one day that she was adopted and it had just never kind of come up before. And it was really as her mum it was so hard to manage not because of actually any of the distress that that day caused for her. And it's always difficult when you know these things happen and all her friends were asking her questions all at once. The thing that really got to me was when I said to her well do you mind your friends knowing don't you want them to know and I don't want them to know I'm adopted. And that broke my heart because I didn't know what have I you know it just brought a lot of questions and I guess it makes you think about yourself doesn't it. And made me think well what what have I would have I not got right here that she recognizes that as something that she wouldn't want people to know and to be proud of and do you know what I mean it's yeah. That is challenging and I think it also speaks of how curious we have to be with with each person because each person is going to have a completely different kind of interpretation of those events and what they mean for them. And I think the challenge of course is that where it comes to policy there's a keen desire to speak about people as homogeneous groups in all sorts of ways you know and of course that's really unhelpful because we're all very different. And actually the curiosity about those experiences is where the richness lies and to be that curious of course there has to be a relationship. And that's that's really that's really challenging when those relationships are predominantly in systems rather than like for example where you are in family it's much easier to have that curiosity. Yes, I guess that's that's true. Do you do you think that kind of having experience of the thing in which you're working makes you better at your job what do you think it ever gets in the way. I think it's again it's a mixed bag I think it can get in the way. I think about certain examples certainly I mean I haven't done any direct work for about 10 years now, but I recall something interesting I wrote about it in my book The Brightness of Stars that I wrote quite a few years ago now. And I recall a situation where I'm moving a young person from one place to a next to the next, and all of their things were in bin bags, which were then put in the back of my car and I should have been dealing with why that young person had all their stuff in bin liners. But actually what happened was it triggered something in me. And I remember vividly my eyes welling up with tears and I remember vividly saying to myself, I am not going to let that happen to myself again. Wow. I think that that's that balance where there's a hindrance. Yeah, I wasn't able to be present in the way that I would have liked to have been, and actually the space and the platform by which to have the conversation about that wasn't available either. And that's where we have a real difficulty about what we bring into our work and whether that is therefore going to help or to hinder. Does it mean that, you know, I have a different lens through which to view the world, absolutely. It's a defining experience when people talk about defining experiences, they're usually talking about things that I don't, that it mean anything to me, you know, whether it's, you know, meeting a husband or a 21st birthday party or they're not defining for me, you know, whereas I think care and what came after has has been very defining for me and it's been a really weight, weight lifting experience to be in a position where I'm very open about that. It's not that it defines me more than any of my other experiences, and professionally, it's not the most defining experience but personally, it is very defining. Is that true even now, you know, as more time goes by and that becomes a smaller chunk of your life if you like, does that make any difference or is it, you know, so formative. I think I have children and they're adults now, and when you have children, you're watching them each year and, you know, children are really triggering, right. You know, parenting from a place of trauma is a podcast in itself. How, how, how you parent is so shaped by your own childhood experiences, whether it's, I will do the opposite of what was done to me. Or I will repeat what was done to me, or I haven't got a clue what I'm going to do, because I'm just going to pretend nothing happened to me. You know, whatever it is, when you have your children each year that they present themselves, they are sharing you a mirror of, of, of you where you were and feelings you had and traditions or not having traditions that you have. And I don't think that's talked about enough in the whole parenting arena. So is it defining as much now. It's just differently so because I'm so aware of things that I've done with the best of love and intention that I now see playing out. With my adult children, if that makes sense. And it's not all doom and gloom, you know, it's not all the bad stuff. There's some great stuff in there. But nevertheless, I know where it comes from. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's hard, isn't it anything where you're trying to kind of break cycles or make change and obviously you're doing that on a, on a big level with kind of trying to address a system that maybe doesn't work as you might want and hope for the child that that's where but equally within your own home on a kind of much more macro level and I don't think, I don't know, I'm sure you put as much energy probably into to both I would guess. Yes, I would like to think so. Although one of course is harder than the other. Yes, your own, your own raising your own children is just such a difficult thing to do. And the other one who says it's not either has a huge amount of support, knowledge or wisdom that I didn't have. That's for sure because I found it incredibly hard graft. Yeah, you know, really. I think for me that's always the challenge that I don't think, and this sounds so incredibly naive. I don't think I realized what it was to really love someone until I have my own children. I've never experienced that degree of, of love and something where somebody else's welfare mattered quite so much. And suddenly you had this thing and you can't put it, you know, once the genie's out the bottle, it's there, isn't it? And it really matters. Everything you do really, really matters. And their pain is your pain, isn't it? And I don't know, I spend a lot of time feeling I'm not doing it well enough. Yeah. And I always said that my children taught me how to love. And, and I still don't always think I'm doing well enough. You know, I wonder how much of that is just part of, you know, the package of parenting from the minute you get pregnant, you know, there's this kind of whole, you know, you can't eat cheese. You can't, you can't have brie, you can't, you can't smoke fags, you can't drink too much coffee, you know, whatever it is, there's all these things all of a sudden that if you're doing it, you're somehow harming. And, you know, that's really alarming if, you know, the one thing you don't want to do is cause harm, you know. But yeah, I mean, God, we've gone deep into a really intimate, vulnerable conversation, Kiki. We have a little bit, sorry about that, you bring it out. Yeah, like warm me up for God's sake, you're taking me straight to the heart of the core. This is what happens when you have someone who's autistic doing the interview. I'm not interested in the small talk, tell me about the good stuff. Don't hold me off about this the other day, we were talking about him supporting me through like a really tricky time in my life when I was suicidal. And I think about three minutes in, we went right in there and he, yeah, he, yeah, sorry about that. Are you, are you proud of what you've done, what you're doing? Do you think your child itself would look at you and go, yeah, Lisa, you're, you're making a difference? Yes. But even you saying that to me, I feel emotional, you know, I find that a very difficult kind of thing to think about to say to own. I think we, we often, and by that I mean lots of us. Yeah. Don't appreciate how amazing we are. I think we are all far more amazing than we think we are. So I often tell myself that sentence. I know that people, I know that I'm very highly regarded in the work that I do, and that's such a lovely thing. Do I get up and think, you know, wow, you're amazing, you're making a difference? Not always, no. I think sometimes I'm like, wow, that is amazing, but I do need it buried back. I had a great conversation the other day, for example, with the lovely Andy Biley, who is a great guy to talk to. He's also care experienced criminal justice experience and works in criminal justice. And we were having a chat and because I don't know if you know, and even saying this makes me feel really uncomfortable. But I'm going to do a doctor in October. I didn't know that that's amazing. Did you not know? Well, I'm surprised you didn't know because I keep saying it because I'm trying to, I'm trying to wear the cloak. I'm trying to try on what it feels like. So I keep saying it wherever I go. And it must be really annoying for people. But I think it's because I don't really believe I'm going because I'm going to Oxford, right? I know. So I keep saying it in the hope that I will align with it in some way from every aspect, physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc. I'm not quite there yet, but it is only July, so that's okay. And I sort of joked with him and said, you know, it's not my academic prowess that they're after, you know, that's not what I bring to the party. And he was just like, really good at mirroring to me. Yeah, but they invited you to apply. Like, wow, you are whatever it is you're bringing, they want to have that and why can't you just own it? And I just thought, yeah, why? Why? Why can't I just own it? Why can't you just own it? Yeah, why? Yeah, God. Come on. Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah. And so I think that has been the case all the time. It's just a sheer amazement at everything that I get to do. And I wonder if I ever stopped feeling really grateful and amazed and, you know, if I stopped feeling all those things, then maybe that's what it's time to stop. But as it stands at the age of 50, I still feel utterly grateful and kind of just amazed that people like to listen to what I'm saying. I bring something that is valuable and, yeah, I don't feel quite humble about it. I don't feel. Wow. It's so interesting hearing you talk because I feel a little bit like I'm listening to myself. Yeah, I kind of empathize hard with where you're coming from. But I find it weird hearing you say that because, you know, we've not spoken for that long because I've been sitting on the outskirts of your world going, oh, my God, Lisa's amazing. Lisa's amazing. I'm feeling like so intimidated by your general awesomeness so that when you kind of, I can't even remember how we started talking. I was like, Lisa's talking to me. And, yeah, that doesn't, you know, obviously my interpretation of you and yours is perhaps a little bit different, I guess. And I think, aren't we all like that? Well, actually, no, we're not. Donald Trump isn't, for example. He thinks he's great. So, you know, some people do actually get up in the morning and just think, I am so great. But it's so interesting when you say that because, and this is going to, we're going to start getting all a bit fangirling. But, you know, I watch you and your output. I mean, I think my output is not bad. You know, I keep going every day. I've been self-employed for 10 years. Every day I'm creating something, making something, you know, writing something, trying to meet what people need. But I watch you and your output is like triple mine. You know, and I think, oh my God, how do you even do that? You must be like, I've got visions of you at five o'clock in the morning going, there's a program. Okay. Oh, I've just read a book and I read it in 14 minutes. So I think we have to be really cautious, don't we, about what our outsides look like to people. I really want my outsides and my insides to be as aligned as possible. So for example, when lockdown happened and every day I thought, right, I'm going to do 21 days of self-care. I called it even though I think the term self-care is complicated. And on the days I didn't want to do it, I showed up and I said, I don't want to do this. I don't feel like it today. I don't understand what's going on. Everything feels really uncertain. And I think I wanted to do that because I wanted people to see that we don't get up every day and we've got it all going on every day. I wanted my insides and my outsides to have some kind of resonance rather than people using their insides to compare my outside with. And I think, yes, we have a responsibility to show up and to be what we want to be and to take responsibility for what we put out there. But I also think let's do that with compassion. Let's do that with honesty and integrity and show, and I know you do this and show the parts of us that are struggling. But in a way to kind of inform connection, human connection requires us to not be slick and perfect and these incredible people, because I'm not an incredible person. I'm just a person who is lucky enough to do something that I absolutely love every day and get paid for it. That's it. It's pretty cool when you think about it like that. Do you still love it as much as you ever did? Every day. Really? Every day. I mean, no, that's not strictly true, actually. When I think about. I doubt. Yeah. Okay. Inside coming out. I think I have periods where I get very fed up. So I got very fed up towards the end of last year. Yeah. Because I felt like everything had got very tick boxy. Okay. And people were just talking about trauma and attachment and I've done trauma and I've done attachment and I've done this and I've done that. And I was like, no, no, you're really missing the point of this. This is not a thing you do. This is not a folder. No. And I don't want to be part of that. I want to be engaged in something with other human beings where they feel slightly uncomfortable. And I want to feel slightly uncomfortable. I want us to come together and shift in our thinking. I want us to feel safe in our discomfort so that we can talk about really difficult things. I don't want us to, you know, reel through some slides and then everyone goes home and they're like, oh, that's great. That's really good. And then they come back the next day and nothing has shifted. I want people to go home. I want them to be going through the processes in their life and they're thinking, God, yeah, that came up when we were talking about that. And oh, I've just noticed I've just been really judgmental about that. Oh, that's an interesting sensation going on inside my body since I was thinking about that thing. That's what I want to be a part of. And so, yeah, I am really passionate and I do love it every day. But there are times when if I'm not careful, I slip into being part of the very systems that being self-employed affords me the freedom to challenge properly. Yeah. And I think that's an interesting part of this whole thing, isn't it? About how, yeah, how we choose to be employed and what that means in terms of how much of ourselves we can bring into our work. Because at the end of the day, you're Lisa Cherry, you're employed by Lisa Cherry and you can be whoever you decide and no one above you is going to have anything to say about that because there is no one, right? And I guess that, yes, it might impact on how much work you do and don't get and the kind of people that you end up working with, but it's not going to ever be that someone sits you down and says, hey, this isn't OK. Have you been employed? Have you ever had a situation where you've had an employer saying actually you need to be different in the workplace? Oh my God, yeah. That's like my whole employment life. Is that why you're self-employed now? Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. Listen, I can tow the party line to a degree. I think one of the things I found most limiting about being employed was the lack of creativity that I could exercise. Yeah. It's my ability to be creative that gives me the most pleasure. Okay. You know, I can literally write what I like, create what I like. I can see a gap and I can offer something. Yeah. Nobody's going to have Lisa Cherry come and work with them unless they want Lisa Cherry. Yeah. I mean, literally nobody because, and I've had people say to me, I've said to them, look, I might say things that are going to be really challenging. And they've said to me, well, that's what you're doing here. Yeah. You know, that's why we've got you here. You just do, you say whatever you want to say. I'm often just given complete free reign to do my thing. And actually, it's not that I'm particularly challenging, but I certainly, I guess what people see is that they can see that I don't have the chains around me that prevent me from being authentic and true to who I am and what I believe. Do you ever have to kind of rein that in depending on, you know, where your work's coming from or where you think it might come from next. So for example, you said you're doing this care leavers project with the department. Does that is that, you know, does the commissioner ever influence on what you do or are they getting you when they commission you, they're getting you. They get me. And depending on that audience, I, you know, I talk more about different things. So if I've got a very education audience, I speak very education if I've got very social work audience I speak very social work doing stuff with care, the Care Leaves Association. I'm doing stuff that's, I'm going to bring my personal more into it, because it's appropriate to do so. And, and, you know, that's the freedom that I have and also, you know, the broadness, I suppose the spectrum of experiences, if I need to get academic I can bring my research in. You know, so that I can, I can draw upon all of those spaces. Listen, I don't have to get personal. At the end of the day, there's enough other things I'm bringing to the party, upon which to hang my hat, you know, but I think adding in the personal aspect brings something else that people can connect with. And I think that is very connected and linked to where we started this conversation, and where we are around it being employed and how much you can say and how much you can't. Yeah, certainly don't bring my stuff into the space, because it needs dealing with. I bring stuff into the space that is well and truly dealt with. It's, and we talked about that so beautifully when we looked at lived and living experience. They're two very different spaces and have different places. I think that, and that's one of the things I am struggling with personally at the moment is how much is it okay to be honest about how things are right now because I feel like there are increasingly role models around me for people with lived experience who talk about their past really eloquently and draw on that in a vulnerable way. And I find that really inspiring. What I find there's less of our people around me who are still dealing with their stuff. So, you know, I today have spoken to my psychiatrist because I'm having a bit of a bump. I can't eat. I'm too anxious to eat. That's a problem. And actually being able to be honest about that and be out there about that is important to me because I know that there are other people out me like that who will look at me and go well, she's managing. And I need them to know I'm not some days, you know, and what next? Do you know what to mean it? But then there's another part of me that's like, well, but does that just look bad? Does it, you know, people going to judge and do I need, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that is a messy space. And people are, well, first of all, people are always going to judge. I think one of the best sentences that anyone ever told me in my early 20s is what other people think of you is none of your business. Because you can't stop what other people's view of you is going to be. No. And, and nor should you, you know, you just get on with your life, your beautiful big pookie life. And I think I remember saying it like, I often said that in a training event because lots of people come up to me they go, I've got to leave at such and such time it's nothing personal. I'm like, I don't take it personally. You just, you just do you, you just live your life and if you have to go and get your kids at 230 then you go and get your kids at 230. I don't, I don't look at people and think, is that because of something I said or is that because of something I did. So I think, first of all, yeah, it's about understanding that people are always going to judge regardless of how amazing you are. And secondly, I guess, I think it's, it's, it's good from the work that you do to have that openness. While at the same time looking after yourself because of course the problem with being open about living experience is that lots of people will have an opinion about. Yeah, how you should do it. And of course, that's really difficult because, you know, you're working hard with your team around you, and what you don't need. In a way you're not inviting people to give you lots of advice about what to do to help pookie. You're sharing from a place of, hey, I'm human, and I'm struggling right now. Yeah. And it's okay if that happens to us. Not from a place of, hey, I'm struggling right now and I'd really like the 30 odd thousand people who run my Twitter feed just give me some advice about that so I can figure out what to do. I think crowdsourcing one's emotional input. I mean, it's not a bad idea. No, I, I, no. I love that crowdsourcing emotional input. I love it. But I think, see, some of it though is about, I feel like when we're open and honest, we can change how people feel and that might change what they do. Right. So I think like you said, you don't need to bring your lived experience into your work. There are so many other kind of places to hang that it's not necessary, but actually that maybe your work is more impactful sometimes when you do that. And I guess that's the thing like this morning, I thought really carefully, do I tweet that I've spoken to my psychiatrist and actually my main motivation for doing it partly is holding myself to account actually when I feel myself slipping sometimes it's about being honest and saying, this is a tricky moment. It's going to be fine, actually, but much more likely if a bit like at home. If I talk to my family and say, I'm finding food a bit hard right now, I'm more likely to get through that than if I hide it. But the main motivation for me actually was loads of psychiatrists follow me on Twitter. And what I needed them to know is my psychiatrist did an awesome job today. And she did an awesome job because she listened because she was human because she was compassionate because she was practical. And I needed people in my life to know that that matters because I've had some awful psychiatrists in the past. And when they get it right, it makes, you know, this means that I've had one conversation with her. I'm really confident that, you know, a couple of weeks time it will be fine, it will be gone. If I'd not had that conversation or she'd not dealt with it in that way, then it might be three months time and I'm in an inpatient unit again, you know, it really matters. Yeah, so you're modelling, aren't you? I don't know, am I? Yeah, I think you are. I think you're modelling what a good relationship looks like with your psychiatrist. You're modelling that when we share something, it helps us. Yeah, you've got an audience and you're taking that very seriously, which is that you know you're being watched and you know that people are looking to you about how you're doing this thing called life with all of the complexities and challenges that you've got within and without you. And I think that's the most responsible way to use a platform actually. It's okay if you don't agree. That's the thing. I'm always up for healthy challenge, but I don't, yeah. I wish there was a manual, don't you? Well, that's an interesting, an interesting one. So that that whole idea about this thing called life and how you live it. When I was 20, I found myself in an AA meeting. And I haven't had a drink since. And one of the things that they talk about is, you know, you know, this is like the rulebook of life. And actually, I really felt like I'd found the rulebook of life having not had any comprehension or understanding about how you do life. Having said that, you know, I still didn't mean that I always understood how you do life. And I think I remember being very floundering around in my early 30s with two small children on my own wondering how do people do this. Yeah, and it didn't occur to me actually that most people don't raise two children on their own without any family that actually and work full time and do course and you know, all the rest of it. And I think I really gave myself a hard time about not being able to do that because I hadn't read the bit in the book about system connection community, how you do that, you know, and that really impacted I think on me and my kids. I got better at it. I definitely got better at it. Yeah, what helped. I think certainly going becoming self employed helped because it meant that I have more control over my time, which meant that I could meet other people who could form a support network, but trying to do that when you work as an employee full time just meant that, you know, you're away from the for the whole day. So drawing upon community support just became something that I just couldn't do but I could do that. Once I became self employed and also becoming self employed. I was working on the most incredible kind of personal development journey that sat on top of all the work that I'd already done previously, but was much deeper because of course, when you work for yourself. You literally have no backup. You know, you the buck stops with you. And that is incredibly affronting when you first realize there's no HR department. There's no department for if somebody's horrible to you. There's no department for if you don't get paid. There's no finance department. You know, so you kind of have to go on this really deep journey. That's very strengthening and growing, should we say, great foundation, really. I think, yeah, and it is because I think you have to, no matter how you might feel about yourself and your work when you become self employed, you actually have to become your own biggest advocate, don't you? And I think getting to a point where you begin sort of choosing your work rather than assuming everything that crosses your desk you have to do. And I think there's a lot there. It is quite a journey, isn't it? I've certainly, yeah, certainly found that. And now you're on that next step doing the doctorate. Tell me about your doctorate. Well, what can I tell you really, because I haven't started yet and I'm still trying the cloak on, but I'm going to be at the recenter in the Department of Education. I'm going to be continuing my master's research, which looked at the intersection between school exclusion and being looked after across the life course, the impact of that, which I did for my MA. There isn't, it is a unique piece of research. There's nothing that looks at that particular intersection through the lens of life course. So I'm very interested in what happens to people, very interested in the adults that the children become. So it will be a piece on that. I'll be based at Wolfson College, which is very exciting because they do lots of stuff all about life writing, life story writing. And I mean, oh my God, talk about looking at other people. I had a look at some of the bios of the people there and I was like, oh my God, I'm going to be like talking to these people. Honestly, just incredibly well read, well travelled people. I mean, I have a real humility about going. I know what I'm bringing and I'm not devaluing that, but I also know that I'm going to be hanging out with some incredible people. And they're going to be hanging out with you. Well, yes, that's lovely. But I feel very open to learning from them. Yeah. I think that's important. I think the thing you'll find though, I might be wrong about this, but I've often found when I'm in those kinds of situations and I do find myself in them often where I feel like, you know, why am I in this room? I think that you'll be surrounded by human beings and that if you bring yourself, there will be connection there. I don't feel intimidated by any of it. I'm not sure that I wouldn't have maybe 10 years ago. It's come at the right time for me. You know, I feel very, I'm very, I think I feel clear about what I'm bringing. Why are you doing it? That's a good question. And it's multi layered. And I'd be lying if I didn't say because it would be great to be Dr Lisa Cherry. So there is that in there. Why am I doing it? Because it's a really important piece of research. And because it will serve, I hope to inspire people who think that Oxford isn't for them, that it is. So yes, it's three pronged. I'm going to be interested to hear how you find Oxford because I went to Oxford as an undergraduate. And they asked me every now and then to be part of their sort of like outreach programs and stuff because I, you know, grew up in poverty and ended up going to Oxford. And I can never be involved in those things because I just wouldn't recommend it to someone like me. I just, you know, if I could go back in time, I'd have told myself to go to Guildford. That's where you really wanted to go. And I wouldn't change it because I met my husband there and it was the start of, you know, brilliant things for me career wise, but I was deeply uncomfortable there. And I'm sure you won't be. You're a fully formed adult and you bring so much to the table. But as a, you know, 19 year old with no money and no background there at all. Like, I mean, wow, it's a it's a unique place. Yeah. And hats off to you. And I've not spoken to anybody who is, you know, has a different background than the predominant one at Oxford who said they enjoyed it. Oh, really? Really. And of different ages, actually. And I think that's what I mean, being 50, not needing it for a career. Yeah. Doing it for its own sake. I think means that I can arrive into it. Yeah. And be unalarmed by that which I find disdainful. It will be a very different experience. And I think, I think you're amazing. You're 19 year old self to go through that when you're carrying the weight and shame of poverty is phenomenal. And I couldn't have even walked through the grounds at 19. I just slept in the grounds. I was, yeah, you know, I'd have slept in the grounds drunk. Yeah, I had an interesting experience a few years ago when I got asked to go and teach at there's a school that's right next to the college that I went to. And I went to teach the staff there. And it was weird because I've been back to Oxford since but I haven't kind of allowed myself, I guess to be sort of fully present and walking down, you know, exactly the places where I've been and I was not my my best self when I delivered that training because I just had all these past and it was it was really challenging, you know, and that's the thing I did. I did it. I wouldn't change it. I'm really delighted that I met my husband and all those things but it was, yeah, it was hard. I went to university. It was the only way I could see of moving on. So I done this job during my gap year and I realized X months into this job I was a cafe supervisor in a theme park. And it was like the Truman show every day was the same and the aim of each day was at the end of the day you wanted to get everything back to exactly where you started and then the next day you started again. And the person who whose job I got promoted into had done it for 30 years. And I had this realization that I will do this for 30 years unless I take up that university place and I leave this town and I make a new life. And I did go and I never went back. But that was why not any other reason really I just needed a way out and it offered one I guess. Yeah, and I remember I went to Goldsmiths to do my undergraduate degree and I went because it felt rustic enough for me. So it's really interesting, you know, why we choose the spaces that we choose. Or how they choose us. See, I only ended up at Oxford. This is ridiculous. I hope my children make better life choices than I did. I literally so I flipped a coin to decide what course to apply for. And I applied for Oxford just because I was curious about whether I could get in. I think I was very convinced I couldn't. And I wanted to know if I could and my best friend was applying and I knew she would because she's like the cleverest person I've ever known. And I didn't think I could and I just wanted to know, you know, and I and I did obviously and and so then and that's the other thing then there's expectation isn't there what there was an assumption well if you've got that place of course you're going of course you are but yeah yeah yeah absolutely did you enjoy goldsmiths. Yes. Well, yes I did I loved it. I mean God I loved education, and I love it. I mean considering I've been expelled from every school I went to. I absolutely loved going to goldsmiths, goldsmiths. I loved the courses that I chose the modules I mean I was working for a lot of it I had a flat on Battersea Park Road. And, you know, I had to work as well. I was 21 when I started so I'd lost three years I suppose in that sense, but the the 18 year olds I couldn't connect with them at all. The privilege was phenomenal. I don't just mean financial privilege I mean relational privilege. The privilege of being at university at 18. The privilege of talking about how you're only there because your parents made you whereas I was like, oh my God, I'm at university. You know I didn't believe that they would have me you know and yeah no I loved it. I got sober actually about the same time. So I started a personal development journey. And it was an incredible time you know it was my early 20s and everyone else was slumped up against the wall in the student union and I was reading Louise Hay books and you know women and psychiatry. So it was it was fantastic and amazing image to mind. And I just I really hope what I really hope is that this experience that I'm about to have from October is as enriching as stimulating and as challenging I want to be challenged. I like being challenged. How long are you doing it over what's your kind of three years. Oh you're doing it so you're doing it full time. Well yeah I mean yeah I mean obviously don't tell anyone but I am going to have to work you know I'm not I'm not a lady what lunch is but yes it is it is full time so but the terms are ridiculously small. And also because you get stuff done so I found when I did my PhD and I hope no one I studied with is listening to this. I was really productive compared to other people because I had you know full time job and two small kids and stuff so I had to fit it in. But but I did and and and you do you know we just get on and get stuff done and you won't I reckon you'll be similar you won't waste any of your time like some people who are studying on their PhD like. They I mean don't get me wrong I'm sure that they love it but it takes up every minute of every day but they don't necessarily produce stuff whereas I think you sound hyper focused and yeah. I will be working I will be writing I will be reading and I will have different days for doing different activities. I will just structure the way that I do things. I'll have days where I am only studying and days where I am only working and I'll just make it work like that and actually having a lot of my work online now really supports that model. Which is what lockdown has brought. So envious that you're at the beginning of that journey I mean you're not at the beginning because I'll see a building on work you've already done but that you've got wow. I'm so excited for you. What would you I've got and you'll be able to hear it when I finally get around to publishing it soon. I've got to. She's not my niece but I like to be her unofficial auntie a girl called Kira who is a recent care leaver in Jersey. I interviewed her recently for my podcast and she is going to be one day the director of children's services in Jersey. Her plan is to come over to England and study social work and work her way up through and she's finding this challenging because it's not the expectation for kids in her circumstance to be coming away to the UK and she's got nowhere to live and doesn't know practical stuff like where will she put her things when she doesn't have a home because she's kind of half living in the UK and then maybe going back home and there's loads of questions and I'm really sure and particularly because I really will make it my mission to try and help her I'm really sure she will actually fulfill this dream as long as her dream stays the same. But what would you you know what would you advise her because she seems to me maybe like 18 year old you in many ways I don't know if that. I mean I love the fact she's thinking about her things I mean I just wouldn't have thought about my things I'd have just been like right I'm going and that's what I'm doing so I love the fact that she's organized enough to worry about some of those questions. She sounds incredible. She is. And I would say to her. You know you can to be whatever you want to be. All you have to really do is think it. Okay. If you think that is what you want to be if that's the expanse of your imagination. And that's where it has taken you. Then you can be that. Wow. And do you think that because obviously there's this whole thing about being a caregiver and then wanting to go into the system to to, I mean it's very similar than your aspirations were and she's entering a different system than the one that you entered at the beginning of your career but. I mean is it do you think she will find that fulfilling is it likely to be a good path for her or would you say do you know what maybe go do something else. Who knows. Who knows. I mean I've had I've had a great career. And there's still plenty of it that makes me sound very old. But it's really difficult isn't it. You know, if you go with your passion. You will never have to work a day in your life. If she truly has that drive. Because listen I tried to leave all this, you know at the end of the day, I've had enough of all this. I trained in holistic therapies I was just going to work with that and you know I was, I literally was pulled back in. And I now understand that leaving this work is not an option ever. This is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. This is where my heart is. And if you if you do work from your passion. It's not it's not work. You know, and that's what I would say to her it doesn't in a way it doesn't matter. You know the right thing or the wrong thing what matters is that you're doing something from a place that's driven from within you. And I know that we've spoken a bit about. Eunice. And, you know, she, she regularly says to me. That there is no surprise that I am who I am from the 15 16 year old that she met. And that fills me really with warmth and happiness. Because it means that despite everything I got to be the person I was meant to be. Yeah. Wow. What thought would you like to leave people with what night do we end this on. I guess. Just remember how amazing you are. You know, if you're listening to this. Just remember that you know you're amazing and that do do what it is that is in your heart to do in this lifetime do what it is that is in your heart to do, and you will do what you are meant to do.