 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History at Fireside Chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe. I am the host and the producer of the chats, which are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today, I'm interviewing Richard Huebley in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. How are you Richard? I'm good. Thank you. Very well. Thank you for joining the chats. Pleasure to be here. How's winter coming along for you there in the Great White Noir? Well, it was white. It snowed overnight. It's melting, but it's just a dusting. Okay. Well, hang in there. Okay. First of all, Richard, would you tell us a little bit about where you're from and you're growing up? I was an army brat, or still I am, I guess, born in Pembroke, Ontario because I was raised on Canadian forces base, Padawawa, which is in the Ottawa Valley about three hours from Ottawa. But for an army brat, you didn't move around a whole lot. Yeah. No. When we were posted about 30 times to large Germany and other places over time, but because my mum was in a wheelchair, the postings kept getting cancelled once we got rid of our animals, always after the animals were gone. So the army didn't move you very often because of your mother's situation? Correct. The final posting that came through, we moved from CFP Padawawa to Canadian forces base Rockliffe, which is here in Ottawa. What was your impression of the military as you were growing up? I loved it. All these hyper-masculine men literally parading around me. It was wonderful. What about it did you love? They're camaraderie, they're the discipline and the uniforms. Of course. The uniforms are a little different from what people in the United States might know. Yes. We don't have as elaborate of fatigues as the Americans have. When they were in Iraq, they still used their forest green ones. They were easy to spot as opposed to the American and the brown camouflage. Why do you think they were doing that? It was just what they had at the time. You did mention that you really liked the discipline and the regimental intrigue. Tell us a little bit more about that. When I was younger, the discipline and the mentorship and sometimes going through the ranks and stuff, and the precision of the shine of the boots, at the time I didn't realize the love of boot blacking and stuff like this, but I appreciate it now and it's a skill I'm still learning even after all these years. Trying to identify the different skins and knowing what product to use on it is still a work in progress, but I'm still working on it. Growing up in that environment, how did you begin to evolve knowing that you were gay? We had a military friend that was gay and was friends with my mother and my father. They were in the same unit together as my father and my friend Martin. After a while, the military back then gave him an honorable discharge because similar to the Americans don't ask, don't tell, it was frowned upon back then. This was in the 60s, 70s. How did this come about that they discovered he was gay or do you know? I don't know the backstory to it, but Martin's always been open. What kind of an influence did he have on your life? I wouldn't say it was something to expire to, but it was something that I knew was around. At the time when we were growing up, I didn't understand what a homeless, how cruel it was, etc. Not until my teens that I figured that out. How did you figure it out? Going to the smoke shops and looking at the adult magazines. I was tall for my age, so I looked the part and my sort of gravitated towards the men's magazines after a time. Do you remember which magazines you were viewing? Intouch, Hancho, to name a few. The nice ones. These were readily available on the shelf or did you have to ask for them? No, they were on the shelf. Did anybody question you about this? Tell you, hey, put those away? No, but unbeknownst to me is my friend Martin and the owner of the smoke shop knew each other. So he talked to Martin and talked to my mother. So I didn't have to tell her I was gay, I confirmed I was. How did she take that? Fine. Well, for those who have seen Queer's Folk and have seen Debbie, the quintessential PFLAG mother, that's my mother. That's quite something for a woman of her generation and demographics. Yes. How do you feel she came to that? Just by knowing a lot of different people, different ethnicities, different sexualities. She was a member, they became members of UFMCC, which is the United Fellowship of Metrobound Community Churches. There were two chapters here in Ottawa, but they have since both closed. They weren't at the same time, but they tried to start one here and it closed. And then a few years later, they tried another time with another pastor. At what point did you officially come out? Fully, probably when I was in my late teens. Didn't advertise it, but didn't I did either? Tell us about the scene that you experienced when you came out. There were a number of gay bars here in Ottawa. I had known through my friend Martin and a whole bunch of other people. I had known the oldest bar in Ottawa since closed about 10 years ago. It was 166B on Laurier Street and it was the longest running gay bar. It was above a restaurant. There have been at one point maybe eight bars total in the Ottawa community. And now it's down even pre-pandemic to about four. Now, what kind of a bar was, I'm sorry, it was... 166B was a leather denim bar. It was the home of the Ottawa Knights. The other longest running bar which just closed about eight years ago was fondly referred to as the Oral Grief, but it was called the Coral Reef. And it was a lesbian drag bar. Oh my gosh. What were your thoughts upon first going into a leather Levi type bar? I'm home. I felt comfortable. A little overwhelmed with the visual stimulation, let's say. But it's... I've grown to get used to it after all this time. Here in Ottawa, the 166B was the home bar of the Ottawa Knights before they moved to Centre Town Pub. It has since closed and now we're almost... We're just down the street from there at Tees Pub, which is more of a bias-free... It's owned by a drag queen and it's very biased-free, but there's drag and lesbian... There's a whole gamut of people that go there. But the Ottawa Knights have been around since 1975, and I knew a lot of them. When I joined the Ottawa Knights, I'm the vice president of the Ottawa Knights, and I've been with them for 34 years now. Take us back to the beginning of that. How did you learn about the Ottawa Knights? How did you know what kind of an organization they are? Through friends and through seeing them around in the community and seeing the work they do. The camaraderie and the fundraising for the agencies around Ottawa. The two AIDS organizations. And through our Ottawa Leather Weekend, the title holder gets to pick who the beneficiary is. So we've had the Maine Society, we had the Special Olympics, and all these other type of organizations also be beneficiaries of our fundraising. Take me back a little further. Tell us how they came to be. They were formed in 75 by five people with an interest into the Leather Denim scene. I know of some of the founding members, but I don't know the exact history of their background story. So I can't elaborate too far. It's just that they were all like-minded people that wanted a club here in Ottawa. What was your first impression of the group? I loved what they were doing and how they were doing it. And even with my disability, it didn't persuade them from accepting me fully when I applied to become a pledge. You were young then. I was 24. How were you received as a relatively young person coming into the scene? No problem. They were very welcoming. There wasn't any ageism or anything like that back then. It was the fact that you liked the Leather Denim and you loved or liked and brought skills to help make the club better. With my administration skills and what I know about finances and stuff, through the time with the club, I've been secretary, I've been treasurer and president and vice president. Currently vice right now. How long have you been the vice president? It's going on three years, but the pandemic hasn't helped because we haven't been able to. I wondered about that. You said you've been president at least once. When was that? Six years ago. How long did you hold that? For a year. We have our elections in January. Are you planning to hold that in January coming up? We've talked about it, but we still don't know how if the spaces we would use for our meetings are still going to be open. We usually meet at the Bruce house, which is the AIDS housing project here in Ottawa. Their offices are working, but they're closed. They're closed. Therefore, the community to use their boardroom. How have the Ottawa nights been able to keep up socially? Are you going to a lot of events online? We have been doing online events individually. Throughout the pandemic, we've been meeting every two weeks. We first started on a Tuesday, and we have a conflict with scheduling for a lot of our members, but we've been meeting, we call it a check-in for the free 40-minute social time. Because we're not holding our bar nights and getting funds in. We don't have the funds for the Zoom account. Has it been well attended? Predominantly, yes. We're not the largest club now. Through attrition and people moving and stuff like this, we're down to about 10 members. Two pledges, I think. It's coming back up slowly. We've had more people apply over the time, so we're setting up Zoom meetings to interview them and stuff like this. During our pledge process, we usually get the pledges to start during the six-month time. It's for the pledges and the members to get to know each other. What's been the highest membership number? 21. Clearly, you hold a contest in Ottawa for a title holder. I know you were a title holder once. Correct. Tell us about that. How are the nights involved with that? It is our... We run it with the help of the community. We financially back it. We are organizing committee meets. It evolved from Mr. Leather Ottawa to the Ottawa Leather Weekend because we have a boot black title now. We have a fetish pup and the Mr. Leather Ottawa competition all together. How has that been received? Very good. It's very well attended. We try to have at least six workshops over the weekend. Both the gay, lesbian, and pansexual communities come out to participate. We have a leather gear swap. Which is extremely popular. Keep getting asked when we are going to have our next one. Are there current plans? It will coincide with our next title. Title runs. It's not right now. We are looking in the horizon for it. We don't know when the horizon or when we can start the planning process because of COVID. When were you a title holder? I ran November of 2007 and after there were five contestants and I won and became Mr. Leather Ottawa 2008. And you competed at IML? At IML 30, yes. I'm in the class of IML 30. There were 62 of us from 17 countries and I was the first person in a wheelchair to compete at IML. 10th overall. I made top 20 and became 10th overall. You've mentioned you are in a wheelchair. Correct. How did that come about? Motorcycle accident and a hit and run in 2000... No, not 2000. 1984. Okay. That would have had a very profound impact upon you. How did that shape your world? It really didn't affect because my mom has been in a chair and I've been around wheelchairs all my life. It didn't really phase me. Like, yes, I was upset that the accident happened but the reality was I needed the chair in order to get around. So, you know, they did give me braces when the accident first happened and it was... They were bulky and cumbersome to get around with with the crutches and stuff like this and it was much easier to be in the wheelchair to get around and have energy left at the end of the day as opposed to having arguments with the carpet on the floor. Gravity, my nemesis. So, you eventually segued into being in a wheelchair full-time. Yes. Okay. You did mention that that transition was not as traumatic for you as it might be for someone else because you grew up with your mother in similar circumstances. Yes. So, my mother has spina bifida and her form of it. Three of her spinal discs are hollow and are fused together and the nerves that should have been in her legs were in a lump on the base of her spine, referred to as a meningocial and over time, it started getting bigger because spinal fluid leaked out. So, after 42 operations, all of them saying, oh, you'll bark again. She stayed in their chair the rest of her life but with her form of spina bifida, she was told by the doctors that she would not have any children and as, you know, I've beaten the odds before and so did my mom and she had three kids and, you know, as she put it, one of each. You know, my brother, my sister and I and I said, no, you need a lesbian to complete the set so we adopted my sister, Kim. Yeah. I don't even know where to go with that but smart man. So the fact that I had that type of support system around me, I didn't wallow in pity or anything like this. I adapted just like any play. It can be adapted no matter what your disabilities are. Whether it's energy issues or modifying of toys to get a better grip because of arthritis or other things. I do do a kink and disability workshop and talk about different things from being a diabetic to with mobility issues and aging issues. Sometimes the skin will become thinner and it may not break outright but it's something called micro cracks. So it'll take time to heal but you have to be careful of the surface area in certain areas because if you're sitting a lot and not moving the legs especially you lose your elasticity. Tell us how you developed that workshop. I was asked to do it so I did research through some of the play I've done and online with different resources, kinked resources throughout. I do have a bibliography on the back but it's been a while since I've looked at it. So, you know, because one of the things like with diabetics, especially submissives you have to be careful that the low sugar also can be thought of the way they're acting can be thought of as a subspace. So you have to be able to check to see if they're okay or if they're in trouble. So you always happen to have orange juice because fructose is easier for the body to absorb than anything sugary. So the natural sugars are better. So to help boost the sugar again you need to have something very close by. You did mention that toys and play can be adapted. Tell us more about that. Well, if you have a sub that is into rope bondage and is diabetic or has back issues you can easily modify it so that they're still tied and they get the sensation of being hung but you can support them with pillows on a table. You can even leave them on the floor but still have their arms and legs up so that they're back supported because everyone wants the sessions to last a long time and you don't want to have to call yellow or red because of the fact that the sub is not being supported so that the scene can continue. How have people responded to you when you've wanted to play? Where do you want me? Or how do you want me? When I flog I get the person to sit on a chair back to me and they're cuffed and blindfolded if they so desire but their arms are locked like this and they're leaning on the back of the chair so they're at my level. When I'm getting flogged I'm traditionally either sitting on a spanking bench in front of the St Andrews Cross and also secured to the cross. So it's been modified that way. The first time I was flogged I was seven years ago at claw and pushing the chair all the time my shoulders are extremely tight and when I competed at IML there was a Mr. Bavarian Leather was the contestant in front of me and there's a picture of me in the IML galleries just melting as he's rubbing my shoulders and I'm of course loving it but in his broken English he leans forward and says you feel like coat hanger because my shoulders were so tight. Okay. But when I'm getting flogged because there's two types of flogging there's the knock you into next week and then there's an erotic flogging and the erotic flogging was very intriguing to me. I had a love-hate relationship between the concept of the thud versus the sting. Starting like the sting. Wearing on me. Because one of the things that I'm having it's the way my body processes it when the first sting hits and say the second sting comes like four seconds or five seconds later my body's just processing the first hit and then you get the second hit built on top of the reaction so we had to modify the timing of it. So it wasn't... He could take me on the journey but it wasn't stacked on top of each other it was a progressive flow as opposed to a spike. But after the two hour session it took two months for my shoulders to tighten back up again. Some wheeling around Ottawa going someone beat me. Oh my gosh. But taking a brief step back because I remember when we were talking about this interview you mentioned that yes you sometimes have difficulty accessing buildings how have you managed that when it comes to going into gay establishments or just wherever you happen to be going? A lot of the time it's like mostly establishments I go to besides the ones here in Ottawa are Toronto pre-pandemic but I know I've been going there for so long I have their number in my phone or I ask security to talk to the head of security saying Frank Richards outside and they come in and I bump up the stairs and they carry my empty chair up and I climb back into it. Sometimes it's the only time their front steps get dusted. Well here you go. Are there certain activities, play activities that are difficult for you to do or that you cannot do as a result of your limitations? The only thing that limits me is my skill level in regards to not knowing the skill. Because besides being a member of the Ottawa Knights I'm also a member of Delta International Brotherhood and unfortunately I missed this year's camp or because of COVID and I couldn't drive down I could fly for some reason but I couldn't drive down so I missed it for two years in a row but I'll be there come Heller Highwider next year because of all the medical stuff that I've done I had no idea that needle play was one of my scenes. Tell us a bit about that. The same person who flogged me also introduced me to needle play. The first time was just in the arm and I had ten needles four different gauges. The next time I had 25 in my chest and we're playing in the upper dungeon at the run and he starts putting the first needle in and when he puts the second needle in all I said because I'm lying on a raised bed that you can do just about anything from wax play on stuff it's very multi-purpose. All I said was it's all coming back to me now and he screams in the middle of the top of his lungs hurry pass me more needles the Canadians channeling Celine Dion you know exactly so people you know like I used humor for as a shield a lot of the times but a lot of my friends also use it and it makes the day go by much faster and a lot of it's it's better to laugh than to cry sometimes you say you use it as a shield what does that mean well sometimes people I can sense if people are feeling uncomfortable because they see the chair first and not the person so if I crack a joke it puts them at ease it's one of the reasons why Jeff Tucker asked me to be a handler with you and some of the other misfits let's talk about that because it is a very important piece but first I'd like to explore your time as a contestant you mentioned you were the first contestant in a wheelchair to compete at IML I would like you to talk with us about that well when I ran for my title one of my judges was Lady Carrow and she was a handler at the time for IML and so when I won my contest she let them know that I was coming the following years so they had time to prepare and the year I competed it was at the Regency Hotel everything was inside the hotel which was nice I didn't have to get shuttled anywhere so that was one less thing I didn't have to climb on a bus just had to fight the elevators to try and get downstairs and so it was much easier but when I saw the way they had the grand ballroom set up with the raised platforms they had ramps on either end and everyone else walked up the center and I came up the sides and they've incorporated it to the show and everything so it was wonderful but the one thing that I like is after that they kept them even since I've competed there have been two other gentlemen that have competed who are in wheelchairs two years after my year one-one Tyler McCormick and the last IML class Laurent I am going to butcher his last name but Mr. Leather France was also in a chair so it was nice do you know whether IML made specific accommodations or was it something that was just coming and they needed to do that do you know anything about that? it was I don't want to call them special accommodations but it was appropriate accommodations for a contestant they knew that was coming because in the opening speech that Chuck Rinslow gave he says we've had blind competitors we've had amputees we've had deaf competitors but it's taken 30 years for a man to wheel across the stage what were your feelings on that? it's all tingly I was not warned but the person who wrote Chuck's speech says I hope you don't mind but you're in it okay no I'm honored I guess I had no idea what they were talking about how did the other contestants respond to you? very well there were 62 people from 17 countries so it was there were groups that stayed together because we had to stay in numerical order most of the time so we didn't get to talk to everyone unless you were in the lobby things like this but it was very humbling and it took me a number of years to process that entire weekend because it was five days of busy busy busy when you were saying it was humbling what do you mean? well when I was growing up I always wanted to be in the medical field to help people but during my title year I figured out and you know not winning and stuff like that isn't the thing isn't the quintessential of everything yes it's nice and it's a bonus but sometimes just showing up and representing you inspire people I have heard since I competed that there were people with other disabilities that are on the spectrum went and competed after me so I came home because I first met them when I was outside in the smoking area at the Regency oh we're here at IML because we saw you in Kink Crusaders which is the documentary that we were also doing during the IML 30 weekend so besides being interviewed by the judges and doing everything for IML I was also with third rail productions doing Kink Crusaders yeah that was quite something I'm as fat as a house in that video I look awful so it's you know three young men came up to me and said we're here because you inspired me us to be here and then a couple of years later one of them competed that was Ken Kennedy that's quite an honour yeah like my mother loved when I went to IML and because she'd lived vicariously through all the stories I came home with the first time after meeting the three guys outside mom I've got groupies that's what she did too like if I was to write a book with all the antidotes and stuff like this they would put it in fiction because half the people wouldn't believe it once summer the Syracuse journeymen they don't exist anymore unfortunately had a nice little weekend get together every year called Strengthening Our Ties where other clubs would come together stay at a hotel and there would just be a bar night at Shades their home bar well I went up to get a beer and this bar fly and asked if I was injured and numb I looked at him and said do I look like I've been through a war zone I came home to tell my mother this you know how old I'd be if you were injured and numb how old you would have to be too I know I go to claw and stuff like this I'm wheeling from the host hotel to go to either the other hotel for a workshop and I have people on the street thank you for your service because I look like a wounded man I guess I don't know wow I can't help but take a step back here and when you talk about your disability workshop that you mentioned a little bit ago where have you been doing that the first time I did it was in Toronto at the Toronto leather weekend and I also went to just outside Detroit in Romulus I think it's called near the airport for the Leather Leadership Conference when it was held there I've done it twice here in Ottawa I think I did it again a few years ago back in Toronto taking the step back forward here we are both contestant handlers at IML this is the first time this topic has come up in a chat would you please tell us first what the contestant handlers do at IML the contestant handlers basically help the contestants give the best first impression they can to either the judges or the general public when it comes to the show when it comes to the interviews and depending on how many contestants total there are we could have anywhere from 8 to 12 contestants in each of the groupings and two contestant handlers are assigned to that group and during the interviews they're all sequestered and we make sure that they're all ready and presentable to the judges during the interview with the handlers there's also Team Shine that are the boot blacking efficient autos and make them look spotless once we have all their seams out straight then they get buffed what interesting little stories can you tell us about having been a handler but maybe something that might be fun to share seeing how the contestants deal with haul process and how they try to decompress and my sixth sense of humor there was one contestant who was lying on the floor on his back and his knees were bent and one of the contestants who proceeded to go and win the title was lying with his head on the person's, the back of his head on the person's crotch so I wheeled up to them and I said one more push just one more push and they broke up laughing and it broke the other when I first started after my year volunteering I was I did three years of doing security for the tally masters I've been through the I know the scoring process I know the what the contestants are thinking and I haven't done is to be a judge at IML but hopefully will change over time when I think I'm ready so it's more along the lines of I understand what they're going through because sometimes contestants worst enemy is themselves I had one contestant we were outside the judges chambers and he heard hysterical laughter coming from the chambers and he goes they're not laughing at him I said no they're laughing with him they don't throw tomatoes at us do they no they don't throw tomatoes well my now I know as a fellow contestant handler with you I've worked with you for many years on that we are handpicked for that team who was the den daddy that recruited you I was first asked by oh my god Joey Wong George Wong sorry it's been that long and then you know so yeah I've been a handler for six seven years now given given the hiatus also included right it felt so weird this year to be the memorial weekend why aren't I in Chicago for those who don't know IML has held Memorial Day weekend in the United States generally in the 20s of May so what challenges have you had to manage as a handler sometimes it's the facility itself there are ways of getting downstairs to the dressing chambers at the theater I have to go a different way as opposed to everyone else but I've got to go through a mechanical room up a ramp to the elevators which are in the next building and then go through the loading dock which comes out right backstage and then I'm there yeah so it's just it's that and that's how I had to take Laurent around when he was ready to be presented and stuff like this it was it's all doable the when Jeff told us that you know they're going to be people staying behind when the top 20 is announced for support I basically said oh god I'm no good at stuff like that but knowing all the talents that are in that pool of handlers that there are some extremely well nor knowledgeable people that can deal with stress and the disappointment and the shock of not placing yeah the so because I've heard horror stories of some of the contestants being if you don't win don't come back yeah which is the worst thing a title producer could do to his contestant yeah because especially with like at IML 40 there were what 73 contestants so the odds were against them of even placing yeah like you had a one-third chance of placing and what a lot of people don't realize is once the top 20s chosen their scores are then back to zero right and then they're judged and it's that just to show that gets the score for the benefit of the audience it's Olympic scoring where the highest and lowest are dropped only time that the score is counted if there is a tie for first place has that ever happened that you know I think it has and the what happens is the score the judges aren't sequestered but they're within reach in case there's an issue but if there's no issue it's like okay thank you interesting I wasn't aware that that had ever happened now a couple of years after you competed and probably around the time you were about to become a handler yourself Tyler McCormick one he was Mr. New Mexico Leather I believe he was 2010 so in he rather he's IML 2010 what were your thoughts on that yeah he's IML 32 yes I loved it when I heard that he was there I popped into the green room to say hi because I was working with the tally masters again so I had my security pass and I looked like one of the inmates so I wheeled in I also said hello to Leslie and stuff like that because Team Shine and all the other handlers were there so I said hello and I went in and introduced myself and got to know Tyler a little bit it was nice it was very nice what were your feelings on seeing someone with a similar disability how did you achieve that being doing security I heard his speech and it was extremely powerful he is very well he's a very good communicator you know he you know I believe he's a social worker so he he's a very good people person and stuff like that so he has skills that I don't you know he made the best first impression that they could meet because I've had you know some of the first impressions I've made or had when people meet me for the first time as I had one of the judges the year I competed at IML go it was a Leatherman if I can't see your ass how did you manage that I told some people that I didn't know that was a prerequisite to being a Leatherman it's what's in your heart and what's in your head that makes you a Leatherman and as I told our friend Karen I said if you can see my ass two things have happened either I fall out of my wheelchair or I'm getting lucky either way I might want your help but yet I can't help but think that that had to be very insulting to hear it was how did you choose to respond to that with humor, hence the shield shields can deflect and it can also make punishment if you thrust it back towards them yeah and the scary part is I see him every year because he was with the production team oh boy I feel as I'm an outsider clearly looking at this but I feel that the reception of people with visible disabilities has gotten better over the years with the title holder circuit how do you see that it has gotten better the there are contestants with multiple levels of disabilities from canes to braces they have even gate issues like they have a pristine limp or most people only think of there are two types of disabilities where it becomes you're either a paraplegic or a quadruple wheelchairs but there's also another form which is forgotten it's a hemiplegic I'm sorry a hemiplegic which is stroke patient so it's hemisphere of the brain and a side of you is affected sometimes it's your speech sometimes it's your walk your arm is immobile but you can limp or if you have if you're sitting in a chair you can use your good leg and one of your arms to push the chair and the other arm and your other leg are immobile but that's you're either a paraplegic is there anything you wish you had done differently in your leather journey yes I was the I was the type of person especially in new like I'm very outspoken but in very new circumstances or new situations or new environments and observe almost to the point of being a wallflower just observing and watching reading the room but it's you know working with Mr. Leather Ottawa and all those people when I competed for the local contest I came to the conclusion that like why am I sitting in the background you know when we when we I I've run the registration I've done leather swaps I've done all these other organizing for the events and even the workshops and stuff being the coordinator for that but it was more along the lines of why am I sitting in the background in for IML 29 I was at IML and there was a rack war vet who was a single leg amputee his speech actually inspired me to run as opposed to sit in the background which contestant was that his nickname was captain Kirk I do remember him actually yes and I met captain and his boy my title year in the lobby at IML he came to introduce to his himself I stopped him told him the story of how why I'm there and how he inspired me and stuff like this and there was crying and hugs involved and it was all messy yeah so but that's building upon how other people have responded to you isn't it you had someone who inspired you and then you've inspired others correct and I'm still hopefully I'm still doing that yeah people were coming up to me oh I saw you at IML I said sorry I heard you I didn't see you standing on stage those bright lights I couldn't see you heard you though yeah you even mentioned you see yourself as a Venus fly trap what do you mean by that not quite I said a wallflower someone who can be shy and quiet when I'm you know in my leather family there was a our sir who unfortunately has just passed a number of years back with leukemia he calls it as my quiet times is because I sat in the background watching him at the at the leather runs by the fireplace working on chain mail you know I just sit there and watch him without going and talking to him so after a while I you know a couple of years I finally started talking to him and that was the the sir the head of our leather family the the Vajra leather family and the tattoo I have here is is the Vajra so what's the biggest misconception about you I'm only laughing because I a friend of mine in a zoom chat saying I've heard stories about you I'm going oh yeah please elaborate I called him on it if that's the only thing that they're complaining about I'm fine this is natural I this is I'm a ginger I just have white coming down here it's not highlights it's natural gray you know I'll be 58 in March so I don't care how do you see the leather scene in your area of Canada how do you see that progressing in the next few years hopefully that we can find a way because I do understand that things with pride and stuff there are events where the the women want to hang with the women the men want to hang with the men but it's all about variety and choice so have those spaces but also have the poly or the mixed spaces that you could go to say two or three of the spaces and I'll be comfortable but you're getting a variety of stuff because if you all live in the same bubble you can't grow your community or converse if the if you just if you don't want to hang around women how are you going to build the community so that it's stronger if you exclude the lesbians or even the bisexual people and now this is back in my day but now when you have the intersectionality of asexuals and intersexed and all the gender fluid or non-binary individuals how do you navigate that so that you can bring them together in an event that celebrates where we're coming because right now there are people complaining about the not complaining but commenting loudly let's say of the transgender issue and I'm going well wait a minute they're 20 years behind the gay movement oh I never thought of it like that yeah they're starting out you know they're starting out 20 years after us what distinctions differences do you see between the Canadian leather scene and for example the leather scene in the states or in Europe or other locations in November we don't sweat like you wouldn't pump wearing your leathers I had to go there trying to get a straight answer out of a gay man good luck with that you said it um I don't think that there is a I don't know if there is a difference between the only difference would be the climate the rest like the weather the rest is the same there aren't you know it runs the gamut depending on what city you're in because Montreal is very different than Ottawa and Ottawa is very different than Toronto Ottawa is the government well Ottawa is the government town people say at 6 o'clock in the evening the downtown sidewalks roll up and there's nothing there's nothing to do here so they'll go to Montreal or the 5 hours to Toronto for the weekend there are people that I know here in Ottawa that I don't see a lot I go down to Montreal it's oh hi well Richard Hubley thank you for a fascinating interview for inside leather history of fireside chat I'm glad you enjoyed being at it's been a while