 Guys welcome to Rotoride today. We're looking at all of our signature frames. I'm Alex Vanover and this is the Vanny style I'm Lajrib and this is the Skyliner Mark 3 and I'm Bubby FPV and this is the Moxie and I'm Les Flair C And this is the tank. So we're gonna be talking about the different frames that we've designed why we design them this way What are some of the advantages that we put into our own designs? What are some of the disadvantages that some of the other guys might see in our own designs and just kind of talk about You know why you might want to choose one over the other figure out Which one of these might be best for you if you're looking for a new drone frame now We're not saying these are the best or only frames out there on the market These are just our signature frames all available at Rotoride.com of course There are tons of drones out there and you can shop other stores and all sorts of other options to your heart's content But these are these are the best. You know the best. I mean no, I mean no just the Moxie is the best Okay, so this is the Vanny style frame So all these frames are five inch frames This frame had inspiration from a couple other frames that I flew before mainly the like impulse RC Apex as well as the pirate frames Hook V2 one of the key notable features of this frame is that it is a toilet tank frame Meaning you can put your battery sideways or vertically which is nice It also has this clever little piece called the puzzle piece on the bottom What this allows you to do is in the event that you break a front bottom plate You leave that piece in there You pull the front bottom plate off and replace it the arms stay in place Saves you a lot of time while you're out there in the field It's also I believe the lightest frame out of all these this comes in at a hundred and twenty grams before you know Adding three prints and stuff like that. That's with the stack screws So super lightweight frame five and a half millimeter thick arms two and a half millimeter thick plates all around and Is compatible with all the major FPV video systems the skyliner mark three first thing You'll probably notice is the front camera cage is a carbon fiber camera cage We've got big openings up here where you'll have 3d printed inserts It's gonna give you a lot of flexibility in mounting your camera So you'll have a pretty easy ability to run the big walks nail camera the small walks nail camera the o3 The og DJI camera, whatever you want This will get it done the standoffs between the main plate and the top plate are 20 millimeters Which I think gets that center of gravity a little bit lower. I can really feel the difference I enjoy it does make the build a little bit more difficult The arms are pretty wide on this as well, which I like I kind of like having some of that Resistance as you push through the air we can argue about why that's good or bad later on And this is a little bit more old-school having the wider arms I have been in the game for a while So I don't mind things being a little old-school gives you the room to have individual ESC's if you're wanting to do that for Whatever reason this is the third iteration of my signature frame, and I'm just really happy with it All right, so this is the moxie and this is kind of a smash of two frames the flight test had an old six inch Frame that I really like Flight test and all people and then I used to fly the skyliner So I kind of took those to school bus style frame But the one thing that I really wanted was to have a standoff up top because I just think it's so much more durable If you have your GoPro mount, you know mounted through a standoff before I had this I was ripping GoPro mounts off all the time It was super annoying. So I haven't broken. It's very rare that I break GoPro mounts with this You know, I have a lot of room inside so building this is going to be very easy Similar to Drew's frame where I have really wide arms because I used to fly individual ESC's One thing I do have my arm protection pointing forward a little bit for my flying style I'm basically always going forward. So really good motor protection on the front end hits It fits all the major HD systems wax nail DJI. This is the tank Guys this is the tank and I built this frame for ultimate durability as the number one factor for most of my decisions Like Alex I took inspiration from a lot of different frames the first frame I ever designed I've been designing frames for like 10 years my first frame ever design was back in 2013 So I've had a lot of years to figure out what not to do and what breaks and where it breaks I designed this with ultimate protection in mind I designed this for beginners because my idea here was to Repair less and fly more, you know, because I like to fly hard and you're not getting any better if you're not crashing The first thing you might notice is the aluminum cage protecting the camera. It's extremely rigid and durable Eight millimeter thick arms. Yes, I said it eight millimeter thick arms. It's ridiculous You're never gonna break an arm in this tank If you do please hit me up and tag me in the post if you ever break an arm because I still have a broken one These arms were awesome if you ever do happen to break one I have a notch in the arm, which is really cool because it makes for easy Removal and reinstallation of an arm all you have to do is remove two screws So if you ever do break an arm, you don't have to loosen the Loctite and all of your bottom plate screws to get the arm out It's a really great idea there. I think that's the tank. It's all about durability. I think we should have three categories So I think we should start with ease of build slash repair We should go into performance and then I think we should finish up with durability. Yeah, I'd say like performance slash Feel right. Yeah exactly like how does it feel in the air not just performing because they all perform very well But like what's the feeling difference because they all do fly a little bit different than each other the order you said is interesting because The first thing you're gonna experience with a frame unless you buy a fully built drone is the build process yourself That's gonna be your first impression the first thing that gives you a feeling about the frame You just got putting it together, right? So I mean what did you think about with yours? That looks a little crazy to me. You got like multiple plates It's really not crazy though. I mean it's actually really simple. So there's a couple little things on this frame It's probably not gonna be the easiest frame in the world to assemble I would say it's you know if you built, you know something like a CL-1 before I think you'll have no problem building this. Maybe it's a good like second quabbit I mean I have a build video on my YouTube channel so you can just watch me assemble this frame You know you have a top plate a mid plate a bottom plate and arms We have these vertical plates which I didn't talk about too when I was over viewing the frame The nice thing with the vertical plates too is they add a lot of rigidity to the frame So in terms of assembling this thing you can assemble it in about 10 minutes I did a lot of little touches though to make the assembly easier especially when you're installing your electronics I made these little press nuts right here in the 30 by 30 stack So that way when you're threading your stack screw through you don't have to hold like an M3 lock nut on and do this You just thread your stack screw up all the way in. Yeah, normally you'd have to put like a long screw And then you put a nut and then but now you don't have to use that separate nut It's built right into the frame. Yeah, absolutely And I believe I'm one of the first to do that I know there were some very very old race flight frames that did that but I haven't seen any modern freestyle frames do that So there's a lot of little attention to detail when it comes to building these things I think in all what all of our frames, but that's just kind of what it is for mine So I mean, it's a pretty standard frame assembly though. Nothing too special putting mine together You know, I think it's probably a little bit more complicated because the front cage There's a couple different pieces that have to come together All the pieces up front have an interference fit and kind of bring each other into a bit of a tension to make things nice And rigid so you've got your main plate and you've got a stiffener that goes up front and then you've got these side plates that Insert over the main plate and butt up against the stiffener and then the top plate locks it all together And it makes it very nice and rigid and the but the first time you do it. It might be a little bit Confusing but once you get it the first time you never have to do it again because you can pull off the top plate and Service everything you can even pull the camera in and out From the side plates without having to disassemble it and if you do build another frame once you have experienced it once It goes a lot smoother. That's probably the only real hang-up, but other than that. It's pretty standard individual arms a lower stiffener I don't think you're looking at anything too crazy. I'd say maybe like intermediate build the most difficult thing about the build overall is the Limited space between the main and the top plates being only 20 millimeters tall Does mean you have to be really conscious of getting your electronic stack close together Yeah, because you but not so close that they make contact and short out Yeah, not so close that that touches the carbon and shorts out are not so high that the Battery strap hits it or whatever But if you take your time and use the right spacers and all of that There is plenty of space to get everything done in there. You just need to be careful check double-check. It's not too bad So my frame is very easy to assemble it is brace plate arms and bottom plate They just screw in there and it's really rigid. They're all meeting at the center No flexing in the arms either way and besides that you have six standoffs and a top plate and some camera plates I'd say this is one of the easier frames to assemble Yeah The only thing that might be a little challenging is maybe getting the 3d prints to fit right with the camera plates besides that very basic frame so like Alex I'm using the split deck design meaning you have a bottom plate and a mid plate that are on different planes And that gives you the ability to have a lot of extra space for the camera But it also shrinks the space in between so I also like Drew and like Alex have 20 millimeter standoffs So I have that same problem of having very limited space here just like they do I actually stole this design from Alex my frame was in manufacturing when Alex's video came out And I literally stole his press nut design for the stack. I said I had to have that on my design I called him up and I said add that to my frame please so that's a really great design having the press nuts for the stack It's a great idea. Good job on that one. I stole it from you I love having these 3d printed camera mounts. I stole this idea from the drips frame I flew the skyliner for two years before I designed my own frame and it was the strongest frame I had ever flown up until now at least in my opinion. I had to make mine ultra thick I want I wanted to have the same strength of the arms of the skyliner The skyliner arms were very strong when I was flying it and I when I designed this frame I wanted to have the same strength, but I didn't want to have that width So I basically tried to take the width and the height and just change the dimensions to have the same strength or the same overall Cubic space here, so I now have a 10 millimeter by 8 millimeter arm instead of what is it like? 12 14 millimeter by 4 millimeter or something like that Yeah, so I basically just wanted the same strength, but in a different shape toilet tank design just like Alex's the toilet tank design Is great for batteries. It keeps you from ejecting batteries as often It keeps your GoPro protected from an frontal in a frontal impact where your battery would move forward normally with a standard Battery strap, so it keeps your battery from being able to move forward and crush the GoPro in a crash It's really great for that I was actually turned on to that by pdbex when I visited him and he told me the benefits of that and I said I have to have that on my front of my next frame design, so The aluminum cage ain't nothing get past that baby right there The tpu camera mounts make it extremely easy to choose your camera type camera size Camera spacing camera distance front and back you can make all kinds of modifications just by making a different tpu Insert piece and I stole that design from the drips frame It was a great idea and I had to have it in my frame like I said I took a lot of inspiration from other people's frames as far as ease of build. It's very simple You got a couple plates couple arms slapping together super easy I think you'll have the same ding against yours that I have with that 20 millimeter spacing keeps things really tight I feel like if I had to rank it Sean's and mine would probably be the most difficult frames to build if I had to choose I'd say mine would probably be just slightly more difficult because you're playing carbon fiber puzzle pieces with the front cage You got a few puzzle pieces over there on Alex, but your aluminum But your aluminum end is all threaded and everything. There's not it's pretty clear how that goes You know, then I think Alex is that's probably medium. Yeah, I mean the nice thing with some small bits The nice the only small bits on this one really are the vertical plates But the nice thing about the vertical plates is you can actually assemble your mid plate and your bottom plate together Just it's like Lego. It just snaps together. So then your arms only have one channel to go They're not like you're not like holding the arms in while you're starting to get the screw there So I actually feel like it's usually only one way to do it and again have a build video I would say that in terms of you know the ease of building them I would say mine might be a tiny bit easier than Sean's but Sean's is pretty easy I think yours is a big step up And I think Bobby's is a big step the other way in terms of ease So like you can fit any electronics in there and I have any issues yeah fit man or anything like that So yeah, this is gonna be super easy to put together I mean I'd say the easiest frame out there to throw together is the cl2 And this is like a baby step above that just because the camera plates stick up through that But that's really not too much to deal with right if ease of building it is gonna be something to think about You know, I think that's a pretty fair ranking. What about like maintenance I mean, I think are any of them easier or harder to maintain Mine is probably actually a little bit harder because we have to deal with you know Which take off the top plate the camera plates might come out a little bit So it's not like yours. Yeah, you can take off my you can take my top plate off But just one two three four screws top plate comes off the camera the front cage doesn't go anywhere So it's really easy to get in there and fix what you need But you've got more more things are gonna flop around. Oh because of anything up there So you've got eight screws you got to take out. Yes, that's a little bit well It's easier and maybe put together. It's gonna be a little bit harder to work on So you've got you've got a few less screws than I do But you actually have to move your GoPro out of the way whereas I can actually take all six screws out without moving my GoPro So that's kind of an interesting thing. That's true. Well, you know with mine You're just for the two front ones and then the GoPro will actually kind of hinge forward Which isn't too bad and you only have two screws really back there too once you do that, right? Mine's you know kind of somewhere in the middle of those like you can take the top plate off It's got seven screws because I do a single standoff in the back Which is probably actually the most obvious difference between all the other ones Yeah, like the camera mounts when you have a camera on there these snap in they're pretty they're pretty snapped in there So like I don't really have the camera mounts move that might be one little thing But you know the biggest thing for mine already touched on it a little bit as well It is just this puzzle piece again It's ironic because I don't break bottom plates on this But if you did have to fix that or service it that would be pretty easy I mean I think in terms of service ability. I think Sean and I went for a service ability There's one more thing about mine that makes it there's one more thing about mines makes a little bit unique Is that's the fact that I can take my arm out with only two screws? I can literally loosen two screws and in the field I would never have to break the Loctite on the other other six screws to remove my arm because of That is nice. So that is nice because on mine You're gonna have the button head of the screw for the stack under there So when you want to take an arm out of mine you completely remove the two screws of the arm that you want to replace as well Just loosen up all the other ones and you can get it out of there and then you bring it back in So it might make it more difficult I might argue that when you're putting it back in you would want to have everything loosen up so that when you torque it Back down it gets all the arms pushed and and tightened together Versus yours. I don't know. I don't know how big of a difference. It's really gonna break But I kind of think more about like when you're tightening the lug nuts on a car Right, you'd want to go around them or a criss-cross pattern something like that. You wouldn't want to just you know if you remove one Just maybe put that one back on you might want to tighten everything back up I have literally cranked these down as tight as I can get them without stripping them out And I can still just take two screws out slide it out slide it back in. Yeah, that's simple That's probably not that huge. It was just you know something in my engineer brain I'm like right. Yeah, I thought about that too and that's why I tested it before I made it a thing Right one thing I want to touch on and then it'll kind of lead just one more topic about the build is with my frame Similar thing to dream Bobby if you're using a 30 by 30 stack you want to loosen the other screws to pull the arm out The nice thing though is if you're using a 20 by 20 stack on this the screws are countersunk So the downside is you have to install them before you put the arms on the positive though Is you can slide the arms straight out because they're countersunk now do your guys frames do 20 by 20 my frame for the Stack is only 30 by 30 30 only 30 of the frames here The only one that could support 20 by 20 ESC and flight controller would be the very side Yeah, and to be fair the reason I wanted to do that is because I know a lot of racing pilots who fly freestyle a little bit As well and most of them come from 20 by 20 stacks I also just wanted to be able to have 20 by 20 stacks to use as well have that option You can save you know an extra 8 grams and as we're going to get into I'm the stickler when it comes to performance, but you know I want to drive an F1 car I don't want to drive a bus that's fair and for someone. That's that concerned about way it makes sense But I think for us I don't I'm never gonna run it 20 by 20 ESC can't take my abuse. Yeah, you know, there's no way It's nice to have the option, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice Strength or any or even placement of the holes or anything if I'm never gonna use them because this is my frame So, you know, I kind of want it to be exactly what I'm right there with you Yeah, I have no desire to ever use a 20 by 20 and I don't want to have to modify my frame to make it fit Absolutely, yeah, yeah, so if you want the option for 20 by 20 you got the cl2, which is very flexible frame or Alex Any style baby, it's nice, you know, so I think we should move on We've talked a lot about like the ease of build and everything like that I think we should maybe move on to how they actually fly in the air and what's different about them Maybe advantages and disadvantages. Yeah, I think of the drones here The most different is going to be yours because yours these will fly very similar. I think yeah, I think, you know Sean's and mine's are gonna be Really close. I think the biggest difference between ours is maybe the width of the arm So I'm gonna have a little bit more resistance from my thrust disc versus yours with that narrower arm You'll get more air moving. I think mine might be 20 grams heavier than yours is heavier than mine though 20 grams heavier than yours. That's it. It's it's a let's start with let's start with the air dynamics before we get into the weight I mean, I definitely have the thinnest arms besides Sean out of everyone here. So these are really thin the nice thing is this just cuts through the air really nice I do definitely feel a difference. I flew the skyliner for a little bit of time really enjoyed flying it But it definitely just felt a little draggy through the air But really that's you know about it and everything else they pretty much fly about the same But I almost like Some of that drag and some of that momentum that they have your drones feel like I feel like when I'm pushing through a turn it'll The weight will like carry me and I will slide more like I'll kind of like drift through a turn Unless I really you know bank it and have the thrust to stop it Whereas I feel like those, you know light frames. They really bite. They really grip. They're really racy So if you're coming from a race background and you are you're probably used to that really bitey sharp like I feel like It kind of reminds me of like driving a car like that has more gription and this is a little bit more of a drifty boy So possibly there's a little bit now bug. Why do you because you also run the wide arms? So what what's your reasoning for those? Um when I was designing the frame? I was flying individually a C's got it Also, I do feel it's just more durable. Yeah, I mean like I guess aerodynamics is not a spoiler. I have exactly I play It's all yet. Yeah, I just I don't think I don't know that for drifting. It's great. You know what watch his latest flight video Results man results like you kind of kill the game the spoilers for the record. I'm just saying I was running spoilers Hey, I did get the idea from him because I know the road right episode For the in terms of flight feel with my quad I really wanted to have something that's heavier We're gonna talk wait. Hold on with the talk to finish the aerodynamics. Okay, go away 25 millimeter standoffs I do like the way it swings more than like a 20 millimeter And that's higher it's higher So I've flown them both of them and I always go back to just liking taller standoffs It's just like the way it yeah And if we're talking aerodynamics think Shawn and I would because both of our front ends are curved. Yeah, but you have Ignore the wind sale Look at this beautiful. It basically looks like an airplane with But spoiler everybody looks at the tank and they think oh my gosh. It's so heavy it's literally only 50 grams heavier than the lightest frame here, which is the Vanny style and Honestly, I don't feel it. I'm running these big old powerful Let's fly our C motors on there with 6s power and I got all the power. I Mean you can't feel 50 grams If you add a single piece of electrical tape to Alex's drone, he'll feel it He's like the the princess here's the thing the mentality I understand where he's coming from Let's this is a good time to segue into the way because we talked aerodynamics, but let's talk about weight I understand this is something that drives me a little crazy because yes My frame is it's not even the lightest freestyle frame on the market. Although one thing I will say is it is one of the lightest Tables definitely the last on this table by a long shot. This is again 120 grams But my thing with weight is that it's not just about the frame being okay Sean says this frame is only 50 grams heavier It's the mentality like if your mentality is it's only 50 grams heavier Just a lot of weight like then you're just gonna slap on a ton of electrical tape and do this and do that I mean the TPU RMS and like all that stuff on all these guys like It just adds so much weight and for me when it's going yours looks good Yeah But but what I'll say is when it comes this speaking of the flight fill in the air I prefer to fly a sub 700 gram quad now before I went to the hero 11 I was at 656 grams with a 1300 millilitre battery session five, which is really really lightweight I think you guys are in like the 800s now. I'm right at 700 grams and to be honest I'm not super happy about it, but unfortunately It's just kind of what we have go pro wise to fly I can definitely see where these guys come from with that 800 gram weight like what they're flying you get a little bit more like Momentum through turns and stuff like that. So I've felt that going up and weight But at the same time I'm still not happy with where I'm weighing But regardless I like to fly a really lightweight quite like the feel in the air I don't feel issues with like being able to swing over things It's just nice and crisp locked in and it tunes really well and I do come from a racing background So weight is super important. I just think like Think about like a cue ball tennis ball Throw them, right? I mean you just kind of have that feel throwing that heavier ball Just kind of feels better. You feel like it's gonna go further tennis ball being a ladder It's gonna I know these aren't tennis balls, right? It's it's different. How how much is it actually it's tough to say Like do the free body diagram How much is the air resistance gonna matter when you toss it over and a split ass? I don't know. I'm I'm just going off of like what I actually feel when I fly and I I like the weight Maybe she's right there with you like I literally Returns you've gone too far, baby I did recently I did recently try to eliminate the GoPro because in my mentality and building this I was looking at the frame as being the lightest material that we have to make things with carbon fiber Is the lightest 100% agree you look at what he's doing cutting these little science holes out of here to save half a gram It's pointless here. This is the lightest material ever broken that we have ever broken the lightest material per square So we have why are we ever broken? Why are we obsessed with taking away the carbon fiber? And you should be focused on these giant heavy batteries and these giant heavy go pros Yeah, so I recently just tried to eliminate my GoPro and see if I could run the o3 air unit by itself And I literally had to retrain myself. It took me like You feel the weight. I did feel the way. Oh, so mister. I can't feel the weight No, I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't do the same things. I used to be able to do in the same way I literally had to retrain myself It was still heavier and I did notice that it was easier to do tricks like trippy spins and maddie flips and things like that That's weight. What a shocker. The quad flies better. That's lighter But I didn't like revelation guys you heard it here on motor right in 2023 But when I wow, but when I tried to flick myself over a tree, for example, I didn't get that same distance So when I went to go punch it to go fly over a tree I'm landing in the middle of the tree instead of making it all the way across when it's simple You know, you just cack it over more one thing. I want to say One thing I want to say with the science holes is I these in particular are not meant for weight savings The ones on the front here where I usually zip ties to mount capacitors receivers these ones on the back here cool the VTX I'll give you points for cool the VTX. That's a big one, you know, like these guys like there's nothing there So again, like I'm thinking like my when I designed this frame the back of my mentality I'm like, I want it to feel like I'm driving an F1 car. I don't want to be driving a v8 Mustang I want to drive an F1 car There are sacrifices to be made which we'll get into in our next category, although when we tell you talk about durability It's very very cool. I'll give you points for the science holes that have a purpose like cooling the video transmitter I like that. I mean the ones on the top plate these two V holes That's pro those are probably the all ones that truly serve no purpose Yep, and I would say, you know, I'd get rid of them even though you're saying you haven't broken it I don't even ever have it's just like why introduce that weak spot because it's Carbon fiber is is a weave and that I want to talk about this more the arms You know, it's a weave. This is not a piece of aluminum. So the more where the more Interlacing that you can have the more structural integrity the piece is gonna is gonna have so when I look at like right here You know, but the distance between this edge of that hole and the edge of your top plate You've got like one and a half Yeah, um strands of carbon like that's that's not a lot like I Don't know. I just I just wouldn't do that. I mean, I agree I mean, I I'd like to design frames to that look really really good I mean, that's just part of it and I've never broken a top plate there So, you know, it looks nice and obviously it's funny because you like covered up the battery But you know, like when you're flying it, you don't even see it on here for example Well, you know my first version of the skyliner I had some science holes in the top plate, but he ended up covering it up with a battery anyway That's what I you know technically he's making up for it by having four standoffs I mean, they are really close together versus yours being really wide and you know, that makes a difference in strength Also, and it's not exactly exactly, but the battery to it kind of sits like right here So it's almost like pushing on the standoff since got a little bit more than just the top plate to support it And they are close as well. At least it's not like those old-school frames. Oh, yeah It's like people were looking at carbon fiber the wrong way and this was the really early early version This is very early early versions of drone frames. So no hate all love, but I mean they had What were truss shapes cut out of them and it's like this is an aluminum You don't want to cut carbon fiber into a truss shape. You want to have a nice even sheet you want lots of the weave going on you want to have lots of Inner lacing strands of carbon fiber and when you cut out this truss shape You've made it weaker to save like you're saying just a couple grams at the lightest material per right lightest material per Square inch that we use in our drone frame. So why are we trying to make it so much smaller? We can focus on the other parts that are really heavy per square inch There aren't any science holes I'd want to add to mine other than maybe I'd cave in and do a couple slots down here to help with cooling But not that I have any problems. They're heating or anything. So yeah, never yeah, but it helps your beat It's just it helps your BTX I think I want to talk a little bit more not me in particular But about the performance because you guys all like I think these progressively get heavier as you like go What's the all the weight of your build? I don't know The all of weight that I prefer to fly at is anywhere from 840 to 860 grams cool I'm south of 800. I think I'm like close to 760 750 somewhere in there I'm this one right here. I think was like 863 or something like that. So we're just gonna call Sean even nine Tyler put mine on the skill and he said there wasn't that well depends on what GoPro you're flying If I think if you subtract the GoPro like it was just say 650 to 700 grams is like I think the heavies you can build This thing is yes Like an action to so yours is a lot lighter because it's like is it still 700 Oh, I'm over 7. I think with the action. I don't know man. It's somewhat It might be below 750 of the action to what I'm gonna call 750 is my my ish. Yeah, I'm running a full-size here 11 That's really chunky. So you're over 800. Oh, yeah I was eight something. I just don't know what it was. You know what your rough frame weight is on yours I think I weighed yours one time. I like it was like 150 or something like that It's the mentality of the build like when you have a longer frame too, you know, you're running longer wires And again, I know it sounds crazy, but like that all that all those things add up. Yeah, yeah you do sound crazy, but you're you're a fantastic pilot and People who are usually fantastic at their craft are a little bit crazy a little bit obsessive, right? Sometimes not all my quality didn't episode on it. Yeah, you're just like it's like it does fly good I guess I just um, I don't know. I don't necessarily want everything as crisp and as You just like it everything. I like things a little looser a little bit more, you know, I don't know more flowy, right? I mean, I just I'm a little less flexible in what I do fly for you know, I know I was gonna get to you I think when it comes to performance like when you're looking at these frames, they all perform very well You've seen all this fly so it doesn't really matter. I think I could probably fly maybe exception of Sean's my style I'm just being honest. I'm just being honest I feel like I could fly Drew's my style pretty closely Maybe bubby's but again, it just everyone has a different style And I think all of our flying styles are built around what we fly like the snappiness of my style the more flowiness of yours With that weight Etc. Etc. So if you're looking for something that's really lightweight you want something crisp Maybe it's like you're flying spaying for example. Definitely go for a lightweight frame like this hundred percent Maybe if you're going for really big flowy lines, which again, I feel I can do with this But maybe that's an argument for your guys. I don't know or maybe if you just don't know what your flow is And you just don't want to let's we didn't we're not talking about no We can get into durability now because I think we've talked enough about all right. Maybe you just don't care about Which maybe you don't know maybe don't know which style you're looking for yet Maybe you're just a beginner looking for a new drone and you just don't want to have to worry about breaking your drone Let's talk about durability. That's a fair argument, too I mean like if you're just starting out get something that's that's really tough like I would say Alex you're On this table, I just definitely the least durable, but it's still an extremely durable frame, okay It's extremely durable, but yeah So like I knew we were gonna have this that this is the area that they were gonna try and win some points back on me But I can only speak for my experience flying this now when I tested this I was very fortunate the Vany style team pilots. We all took the final version which was supposed to release in April of 2022 we didn't release until August because it wasn't until I had guys like ATEC FPV who is the hardest ripper I've ever seen fly outside of Sean We found areas where we change stuff just little tiny tweaks It is a very very durable frame if we want to sit here I'm not gonna see your waste my energy and try and convince these guys that it is It's not the most durable frame on the table The tank is definitely the most durable frame on the table, but I gotta be perfectly honest I think the all-of-way to this quad compared to the all-of-way to yours for if like just the raw frame itself is a Tiny bit less durable than maybe the moxie or in the drip, but the fact that it's a hundred grams lighter I'm telling you this is Same durability as that probably that as well Because it's not as heavy I Appreciate that you'll concede and say the tank. Oh, that's not I will give you a little bit of points on making your frame Ultra light in that the heavier you are the harder you fall the thing about durability is you want to make things tougher You're adding more material you're reinforcing weak points and things are getting heavier and heavier So naturally you kind of think you know heavier must mean more durable, but you're exactly right The heavier you are the hearty crash you've got more momentum. What's the equation for momentum, bubby? row equals Mass times velocity So two things going at the same speed the heavier one has a harder change of momentum. Yep That hurts more. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, here's my thing too I'm gonna rank in durability on these frames and might shock you But then I'm gonna at least give my voucher the base down I think everyone get their voucher. We know Sean's is the most durable so he doesn't get to talk Sean's is the most durable frame These tie for second. That's the worst. Do you think the moxie is the least durable? Here's my thing with this there is more to durability than what you there the biggest thing you think of is like, okay It's the lightest it's gonna be the most fragile But there's a couple of things that I want to compare moxie for my it's gonna get that one, please Okay, so first off I in full disclosure have not flown the moxie So I'm gonna speak so little on this, but I'm just going to give But I've got a very firm opinion, but I'm gonna say some things because just like these guys have seen me fly in Sean was making fun of me breaking arms I get to at least do this and then I'll talk about I have phone Yeah, I broke two arms. I broke. Yeah, that's fine. I broke in four arms total now in Nine months of production. He broke two of them. I was here. What's wrong with this quad right now? This quad is literally broken. Okay, but that was done. Yeah Adults are talking about me listen. I've flown the skyliner. Okay, here's the thing. This is a super duper long Top plate right can break here. Also another thing 25 25 millimeter standoffs taller standoffs much much easier bends especially yeah, okay I said I said I would talk first because you all came out One thing I did on the Vanny style to make the nose very durable because I do have taller standoffs on the nose Is these camera plates these carbon-fiber camera plates? They are not your typical like 1.5 millimeter thick plates They are two and a half millimeter thick makes the nose super super duper strong. I don't have to share Dude yours is most durable. You know it doesn't fly the best. It was most durable So the point is it's a very very strong nose on the frame now in terms of everything else on it It is super duper compact. It's lighter I believe that that weight difference alone compared to the 200 grams more that this weighs if it's a little bit thicker in sections I I've seen Bobby break places like this. I haven't seen a breaking arm. That's true But I've seen a break the other pieces what pieces are you break the bottom plate? I've seen you break the camera plate the camera Oh, I've never broken a camera. I'm not the camera. Sorry the bottom plate that this sorry the top plate I for some reason I thought that Alex has just savagely attacked you on a personal level How how do you refute? How do you re rebut? This is like the most durable. I mean the whole 25 millimeter standoff point. I have these chunky vertical camera plates So, are you betting? Yeah, I'm betting the front ones, but you know who cares about the front ones Yeah, but you're but look at there's no material for the carbon here. It's why it erupted here as well That was the I can't explain how gnarly I know but like see here. Here's the issue. There's no material Pick little things. I would say see how he does have more carbon between And that gives it more of a lip to grab no It doesn't point gives him over lip to grab and I haven't broken a single thing there. Okay, I will You don't frickin crash ever Full agree, I wouldn't say never he's speaking here. Yeah, but seriously That you're you are really good at flying. I appreciate it. Yeah, we All crash way harder way more than you and no one crashes harder than Shawn and here's the thing If we were taking Advice on picking a race frame. There's no one better at the table to listen to than you you know racing Yeah, but Shawn knows crashing. Okay, so he Alex you gave your ranking Shawn. How do you rank durability? Yeah, how do I rank durability? Well, this is the most durable. Okay, what's number two? I would say honestly only because I've seen That I haven't flown this one yet, but the mark to Skyliner was the most durable frame I ever flow in my entire life up until I built my own Okay, and it's number two the moxie. I think I would okay I would rank them most durable second most durable third most durable to weakest exactly because the arm you literally broke Two arms in this week. Can I at least find myself on that? So yes I know you meant it so you built it to break it on specifically because yes We wanted three point three great points on this one thing. This was a very very old drone So there is a very very old drone guys adults are talking very old drone. See I'm defending my point there That's fine. Let me very old drone. So yes, I did break an arm these guys say that I don't crash a lot You're right. I don't crash a lot But when I do crash and Shawn was in the goggle with me It was so hard that the Kevlar battery strap which Shawn Believe ripped. Yeah, it was very hard and I broke the arm right where I designed it to break I wanted the breaking point to be right here So it doesn't break in here and it's super hard to get out broke right there Swap the arm out in eight minutes was back up to fly. I'll give you that that was a crash It was very hard the one where I broke the other arm was a blind Rubik's cube for a trip to throw by the way Straight full speed in the tree. Okay, kill the gopher and everything I Just don't want them to say that I don't crash if you got a doctor and a lawyer You should probably take medical advice from the doctor if you got a Vanny and a Shawnee you should probably Take durability of ice I mean you guys saw we just released the GeForce quad episode where we were like full throttle this thing in the ground Did you see respect dude? Oh, I know I'm not saying that takes not the most durable So he knows battling Shawn so he knows yeah, but if I could do the same thing I can make the arms 10 millimeters thick and you'd be like oh, but to talk to exactly so I'm saying this is you know These are probably tougher than yours, and they do have thicker arms yours yours would fly Better based on what you want out of flight sure, but I mean I've seen you break arms, too And I'm not it happens that one it happens to everyone break eventually. I agree Yes, but the thing is I don't break mine that much. I yes I broke two on this trip from two very very very hard crashes one that killed a gopro another one That was both rattle into a tree mm-hmm from a blind If you want to fly a good quad you can fly If you see the way that you rip and you are fantastic I'm still strong as you see the way that he's flying and you want the best shot at flying on Alex's level You probably want a set up to matches, but if you see the way that we crash and show them crashes, you know Shonda's artist one a little bit tougher thing though as I mentioned I think probably kind of the best of both worlds, you know, I so strongly disagree with that I had very thankful the shout out to all the Vany style team pilots as well as a tech FBB who helped me test this I know for a fact Pretty sure I know for mostly a fact that I'm the only one here Actually really did like go out be in like have other people I hand out frames as early as rampage last year West Coast third on a head out a bunch before they went into production because I wanted to get people to like see if they could break it in Places that I couldn't and sure enough people do crash more than I do and there were a couple little spots We you know changed a couple things around and then people were absolutely loving it So I understand what they're saying. I'll just keep that in mind. I'll give you a lot of points I think there are a lot of smart things here the the amount of extra meat that you have from the screw to the Edge of the carbon. Yeah, I hear just saying that it catches, but I think I think it doesn't really catch Yeah, you're gonna hit the arms I think that extra meat is gonna make a big difference in having you know, like what you're having here You know, I'm just I'm just saying it's a durable frame And you have to weigh all these things too because it's not just the ultimate durability that you have to weigh You have to weigh the things that we talked about like ease of repair as well It's much harder to change this plate out than it is if you have to change this plate out And you do inevitably break it. Sean kind of completes ease of repair in durability I'll give him that and then for like him his performance would probably be the lower end But he definitely does strive the best I would say in some of those other areas Yeah, you know the best way to the best way to make it easy to maintain is to just never have to maintain enough to break it I think the biggest ding against your durability are the narrow arms Which are essential for the flight feeling that you want, but I think your arms are Gonna be the least durable This is going back to What the material we're using here. We're using woven carbon fiber. This is not aluminum. Okay, so if we were milling out aluminum Sure, the cross-sectional area is probably a good way to compare the two arms But it's more than cross-sectional area because you've got the integrity of the weave So I think about take take like a t-shirt and yeah, I understand what you're starting cutting I'm explaining to them to take a t-shirt and start cutting Strips of the t-shirt narrower and narrower and eventually you're gonna get to a point where the whole thing just falls apart because the weave Doesn't have any integrity left like carbon fiber is a cloth Literally is a clock when you get raw carbon fiber It is fabric and it's the thing about a composite is you have a reinforcing material Which is the car in this case carbon fiber fabric and then you've got a resin material that cures hard and holds it very rigid and carbon fiber is just an incredible composite material but having a weave with a good amount of overlapping strands I think is is really important to have it's the weave that makes it strong exactly I saw you I saw you make this point on Facebook I saw a lot of people complaining about your frame about how I looked old school and you didn't make any change to it There was a lot of people that were making a fuss about your frame and having big fat arms You know you've always loved the way individual ESC's fly you always felt that they were more Responsive for whatever they just had better flight performance than a four-in-one you had it You hesitated to move to four-in-one and so did I for a long time because I was following your advice And that's why you made your arms the way they were but also you I saw you Have your talking point about the way the carbon fiber was weaved together and the strength comes from the weave And I thought that was a really intelligent way to look at it I never thought about it that way. Absolutely. Yeah, because it's not it's not a solid material. You look at like aluminum it is uniformly strong in any direction and Cross-sectional area plays a big role, but you look at a composite It's good if you look at a composite in carbon fiber specifically It's strong in one direction more than the other Which is why it's really important when you make arms that you have the weave oriented the correct way look at look at any Frame that has some thought into it You'll see the the weave is going to run the length of the arm if you had it at a 45 degree angle And we've seen this happen for some prototypes that were accidentally cut the wrong way and you can bend the arm with your hands It is it is wild so it's really important to think about these things I think I'm always going to have a wider than average arm because you know in my mind coming at it from You know a little bit of an understanding of composites I want to have a lot of overlapping fibers, you know your arm Just as narrow as Alex but the thing is I think you just killed it with layers of carbon fiber Because I mean to get the thickness of carbon fiber you actually have you know different layers If you look at the side of these plates, you can feel you can feel the different layers of carbon When you look at where it's like broken in split, you can see how it how it splits apart Don't do that kids Carbon fiber splinters are nasty. So when you've got fraying edges like that be careful But yeah, you can see we'll get a close-up of this You can see the the layers coming apart from all from all the crashing and so even though I think that you have you know Kind of maybe crossed a line where there's not as much less weave weave is out of like I mean you've just got so many layers. I mean you've just got a lot of resin in there I mean the proof is in the pudding. We literally slammed this in the ground full send three times in a row and still didn't break an arm It broke right there and since then by the way, I've got a new bottom plate that addresses that issue So it's still not gonna break in that crash now today. It's not there There's definitely no debate when it comes to your frame is the most durable frame There's not gonna be any debate there I would again argue that my frame is on the same level of durability But you know what you guys can try it and find out there's been a lot of people who have flown all these frames They can try all of them buy all four Yeah, we didn't really talk about the durability of the TPU mount and the GoPro because when you add the TPU matted GoPro I've noticed that when you only mount them with screws like on Alex's frame right there the screw the screws end up getting stripped out Yeah, this is one of my least favorite things is having the GoPro get ripped out. I this is I mean We all three have standoffs Did this first on our table on our table right so I did that to get that more durability It helped a lot, but every now and then I still do have the back to rip out That's never gonna happen to you because you're mounted on two horizontal standoffs. You don't have any through screws So that's nice. So I'm so mine actually the way I have mine I have one horizontal standoff in the middle and then it also mounts in the front and back So it I mean pulling this way it kind of gets stopped by this super thick Those are definitely the most I mean I will agree and I'll concede and say those are gonna be more durable overall But I would say that these mounts I use just washers underneath No, I haven't I mean before I used to do this I would you know the screws would come through and very very hard impacts Haven't had one of those happen in a long time. I would say it's probably 90 percent as durable is what they're using You can also make the teeth and a lot thicker It's it's you're again all talking very very hard impacts. I yeah, so I Want to do something. Okay. I want each of us to pick our favorite frame on the table that can't be your own Right and why you know, let's say we just gotten to kind of a little bit of heat there Are you know over what even is durability right, but now let's just try it Let's be nice to you. I want to say mine because I think it'll shock people of course you want to go first tank Wow, I did not see that one coming either. So here's the thing for me when it comes to The most important thing is fight performance and you're like well, why did I go with the heaviest frame? Well, the reality is these three options are all very very heavy So the biggest noticeable difference is in the aerodynamics and that's with the thin arms Second thing when it comes to performance and this is more from a tuning standpoint is much much easier A to tune with more of your weight in the center And that's what you get with a toilet tank set up that you don't get with your batteries long ways And from a durability standpoint as well like Sean and I talked about your battery does not eject into the back of your GoPro So I would go with this frame 100% didn't even take me a second to I didn't even cross my mind I flew the skyline in the past haven't flown the Moxie. I love the other little things that Sean did similar to mine The press nuts. I like the camera out. It's a no-brainer for me. I'd fly the tank if it wasn't for mine That being said like if that was only the options that I choose from respectfully But I mean there's not many toilet tank frames out there on the market as well So that's a big that toilet tank is big for me. Yeah If I had to pick, you know, there's something about me that there's something about just Only having carbon fiber pieces that I really like it just feels a little more purist in a sense like having an Aluminum front cage. I don't I'm I'm just not fully about it You know, I would say that would be kind of fun with the aluminum cage because I could have a little bit of fun Maybe power coating the front end different colors and spicing it up. So, you know, that's fun The thinner arms would be different. So I I like your frame a lot, but if I had to pick I'm I mean, it's It I don't know it's it's the most It's a toss up. It's a toss up because Sean's I think is gonna fly more the way that I like It's gonna have the weight Yours is not necessarily gonna be my favorite flight characteristics because it is, you know, really locked in and just super Grippy, but you know, I like kind of the classic look of it. So, yeah, I don't know Maybe the tank acts either way. It's a tie one of your one of your two. No offense, Bobby I just you know, what would you pick though? Um, I probably would do I've flown the Skyliner before and I really like that frame Skyliner Yeah, I was gonna say that it would be hard. It would be depending on what for me it would depend on what my What my goal was I would love to try to fly Alex's frame because of the lightness and just feel the difference I would just love to have one just to feel the difference and feel it feels like to fly like Alex because I'm sure the flight Performance is just amazing and I'm sure that the flight experience would be amazing I did fly the Skyliner for two years and that was my favorite frame and It was surprising because like I said, I design I've been designing my own frame since 2013 So I've been designing frame for ten years and even the own even the frames that I designed for myself after Whatever that was like five or six years of designing the Skyliner was still stronger than the ones that I designed So I was like that is an amazing frame and I flew for two years No problem and I loved it and I still think that that's probably my frame of choice If I'm gonna go freestyle and then Alex's frame if I just really wanted to have that light Feeling experience, you know, um, yeah, so the Skyliner I think I would choose this because first off the biggest thing is you got that standoff Yeah, you want that to get your GoPro mount. Yeah, that's like the biggest thing for me like Different scene. I guess your frame has standoffs too, but that one just I think the GoPro mounts are ripped off too much For me at least the way I could the way I crash Also, wide arms on yours would fly similar to how mine are you get your 15 second elevator pitch and go I think you should fly the van style because you get the best of every single one You have a nice balance between performance durability ease of repair It fits the most electronics out of all the frames out there and plus it'll make you fly like van over. No Okay, okay The Skyliner I've been refining this design for many years. It's on its third iteration I'm really proud of how this has come to be the low center of gravity flies very nicely It is super durable. It has everything about the old school that you like with a nice time That was that felt way longer Go watch my last flight video if you want to be a flow master you got to get the flow master drone This thing is it's a flow machine. That's all I gotta tell you. He should just said watch my last flight Fly more repair less that's all I got to say if you want to learn how to get better You have to crash if you're not crashing you're not pushing yourself. You're not getting better fly more Crash more repair less. I think Sean had the best pitch. I'm having this is the best pitch But does that mean he has the best drone? I don't know which drone on the table is objectively the best drone I'm gonna say it's what you know what it's subjective guys. Honestly. Yeah There's different frame styles for the different types of freestyle that you want to do the different types of Cinematography that you want to do the different types of crashing that you want to do it truly is subjective There isn't a right or wrong answer, but that doesn't mean that we don't have strong opinions And I'm sure that you also have some strong opinions. Oh, we know you What is your favorite frame? Yeah, I'd love to know if it's one of the four on this table Or we love hearing from you guys And if you do want to pick up one of these frames or fully built drones They are all available at rhodoride.com if you're new to this channel hit the subscribe button We're posting drone content all the time, you know, you don't want to miss an episode So why are subscribing hit the bell then we can notify you. Hey, we posted come hang out watch us We're back at it again guys. You know a happy flying. I'll be fine guys. I'm the drip. I'm Alex fan over I'm Bobby FTV. Let's fly our sea. We'll see you next time on rhodoride