 Security agents are collaborating with bandits, says popular Islamic cleric Ahmad Gumi. And Nigeria is a poor country that needs to borrow to develop infrastructure, says the President of the Senate Ahmed Lawan. This is PLOS Politics, and I am Osao Gie of Mongolia. Welcome once again to PLOS Politics. The Nigerian Army and a popular Islamic cleric Ahmad Gumi have disagreed over the latter's allegations that security agents are collaborating with bandits. The cleric stated that the bandits had been able to access assorted weapons that they used against Nigeria due to cooperation of certain security agents. He also attributed the incessant banditry and headsmen attacks across the country to tribal wars. While Gumi is accusing the government at all levels of taking sides in the raging attacks on Nigerian communities. Joining us to discuss this is Harriet Chimesier, a security analyst. Good evening and thanks for joining us. Good evening. Thanks for having me. Alright, I'm going to start with talking about the role of Sheikh Ahmad Gumi in all of these conversations concerning banditry. Some people have criticized it and said it seems like he is acting as a mediator. Do you believe that he is simply playing his role in trying to bring peace? Oh well. As for me, he is also a cleric. And in his position, I don't think he can just speak without having facts. And also, I strongly believe that he has some evidences. So if he is saying that the security agencies have hands in what is happening in the insecurity state of the nation. And then should give us evidence and call names. There should not be, it should not just be a hearsay. It should give us names and it should be facts and not assumptions. Because seriously at this stage where Nigeria is right now, we shouldn't be assuming anything. Because what we want is solution. So whoever is coming up to say that security agencies are behind all of what happens in Nigeria as a nation. It should give us names because we are restless, we are scared. We don't know what is going to happen tomorrow to our children, to our generation. So the issue of insecurity in Nigeria is beyond just mere assumptions. That we should be specific. And there should be, it should not just be a sit-down assumption. Somebody should be able to say, this person is the one doing this. And let justice prevail. And I think that is what would help us in this scenario here. Okay, I want to remind you also, if you remember not long ago, a couple of years ago actually. TY Danjima also made similar claims of a collusion between the security agencies and bandits, insurgents, killers, whoever they are. How shocking is it? And do you think, as a security expert, do you think that the only way, or would you agree that the only way that bandits could have been so successful with carrying out their attacks in the last couple of years, leading to the loss of hundreds or maybe even thousands of lives in the last couple of years and the displacement of people kidnapping and all of that? Do you think that the only way they could have done that is if they had some collusion and assistance from security agents? TY Danjima, we know, is one of the senior citizens in the nation, must have come up with this years ago. And again, I'm a strong believer that old people, there is no how the rat in the house will go out except there is a rat inside that shows you the way. So this guy that carries these arms, they are not trained, they are illiterate and they cannot just operate from no sense, from nowhere. I think they should operate from a direction. And so in my own personal point of view, I think there should be, and there is, a very strong backing they have that is so strong that makes them to do what they do everywhere. But until we have, until we have evidences, and we have this in a collaborative effort with both the staff holders and the government, I think it's just a mere assumption. Because we need to have a definite evidences that will come up and that will happen, that will make us to know that yes, we are there. Because this insecurity has to be handled from the root cause, from the roots, not just our periphery. It has to be handled from the roots. Once we are able to get to the root cause of what brings about insecurity in Nigeria, then we are near to the solution. But if we just keep assuming that, assuming and we will just end up in assumption and at the end of the day, we will never have a solution. That's what I think. The Army has of course responded to these allegations and said that they are false and also said that they are damning on the confidence of soldiers who are fighting the war. And some of all of that. There's also news reports that Ahmad Gumi may have been picked up by the DSS. But what more would you want from the Nigerian Army to defend itself from these type of allegations? Well, for me, what I want from the armies and the security agency in totality is to be proactive and to be on the spot to do the needful. And also, I was opportunity to work in Dambua in Meduguri in Chibok in 2017, 18, and 19. It's a transmission project. I went to Aspera Oba, Chibok specifically. What I see there, I don't see a word that we cannot defeat. If we go straight to fight it with that passion that this is our country. If I'm, if myself as a woman can go to that area to work and finish this work and come back. So I think the Army, what I want from them is to be given an enabling environment to do the needful. And they should be given a cooperative, a cooperative, the progress in action taking should be removed. There should not be a long records in the issue of decision making or taking or action when there is a need to. So these things causes us to lose means in action during the acts of fighting insecurity in Nigeria. So if there will be a need for a straight instruction, maybe as soon as you see the enemy attack or something like that without any waiting for an order from anywhere, I think, and again, there should be high intelligence in the Nigerian Army. Talking about information, maybe the information system is not well coordinated. They should increase more on their information and on their operations so that probably we should involve more sophisticated weapons in our information system. I think that would help very, very well in curbing insecurity and on their job. Well, that simply also means better funding for security agencies, including the Nigerian Army. Because of course we're better funding, you know, they should be able to get better intelligence, gathering equipment and some of all of that. But that's a totally different conversation. You know, I also want you to, if you can, speak on the importance of the Army being able to weed out if they exist, elements within the Army that might be sabotaging their efforts. And like Ahmad Gumi and, of course, Satiwa Danjima has said, working in hands with the bandits. How important is that and how do you think they may be able to do that? Oh well, I think sincerely the most difficult kind of enemies to fight are those within. Yes, because, take example, if you have in the family one of your sons as an enemy, it will be as difficult as a needle in an eye to pass through for you to discover that that same son is your enemy. And so it's a very difficult one, but notwithstanding, in my own personal opinion, and as a security consultant, I think there are measures that can be put to catch or to get the people that are sabotage amongst the Nigerian Army. Because I'm sure, and I'm pretty sure that they have measures they can put on ground to be able to catch these sabotage among them that are deterring their works. And if they apply these measures, I sincerely think that more successes will be recorded because they are doing their best, they are trying all they can, but I'm sure with the new government we have now in the Army, they should put some measures inside, in place, so that the sabotage can be dictated. And if that is dictated, measures should not be taken irrespective of who the person is. Irrespective of the caliber or the position or who he knows, the necessary actions should be taken and that is the way to go. We would always like to, of course, give kudos to Nigerian Security Agencies, the Army, Air Force and, of course, the Navy, including civilian JTF, for the sacrifices that they've had to be given in the last few years, last decade, actually, to ensure that Nigeria remains a safe country. But there are certain angles that have been spoken about multiple times and it's one of the things that Ahmad Gumi had mentioned and that is the availability of assorted weapons to these bandits. These weapons, very likely, are not locally produced and so there has to be a channel through which they assess these weapons. What's your take on how we can stop these characters from assessing these weapons? First, our borders have to be checked. Nigeria is a blessed country. I've been privileged to work in the 19 Northern states of the Federation, the North, the Hornout, as far as KB, as far as KB, so-called Mezuguri. From my experience in this work, I've discovered that our borders are quarrels. So, the first thing for us to do is to control the movement of the arms in our borders. And also, the next thing we need to do is to... There are so many ways to fight insecurity. First, we need to, first of all, install checks on all the arms that come into the country because as it stands now, our borders are quarrels. People can just bring in true Kastina, true KB states, true the Hornout, true any part of the country where it's deserted. They could just come in so if we can put in good checks on all these borders. I think to go a long way, to go a long way to control the movement of arms within the country. All right. I'm going to now bring in Katch on Nonoju, who's just joined us. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Onoju. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here with you. To have you in close politics. We have a quick discussion on allegations by Sheikh Ahmad Gumi concerning the Nigerian Army. He has claimed that they are working with the bandits. Of course, he's mentioned the availability of assorted weapons that the bandits have. I mentioned earlier that it's not the first time we're hearing of such. To a general, to why Danjouma had made those similar allegations a couple of years ago. How shocking is this and what is the likelihood that this really might be happening? Well, thank you. It's not an issue of likelihood. It's happening and it is happening by strength of the president. The president, President Buhari, it's a complicity what's going on. President Buhari is the one who appoints the service chiefs. And it's also based on the kind of instructions that he gives the service chiefs that they have all this while staying hands. And allow the Fulani bandits to kill, pray. Just take a look. No single Fulani bandit had been arrested or prosecuted for the killings. So to believe Buhari is to be foolish. President Buhari is fundamentally dishonest. People, as I said before, are incompetent in managing our diversity. These things are not jokes. Gumi himself is part and parcel of what's going on. The soldiers collude simply because President Buhari told them to be easy with the Fulani bandits. And that's why the whole of the country believes that Buhari is a state sponsor of terrorism. By virtue of his easy ways with the Fulani bandits and the Fulani husband militia. And this is why all of us believe if the people are arrested, Buhari will give instructions that nobody should try. If you take them to police, instructions will come from above and they will be released. That's why the entire country do not trust him. You could see what they did here in the east brought down their traveling theater of violence which they called unknown government. Those were all part of it. So for us, we've never had a president like this. A president who actively connives with foreign bandits to kill Nigerians. I have never seen anything like this before. It is unprecedented. We have to be impressive, Buhari. Well, I understand it's your perspective, but it's a pretty wild statement to make that the president is colluding with bandits. You've described it in your own way, but I think we should also not just throw out such strong allegations. I want to also believe, and like I said earlier, that we give kudos to the army for the efforts that they've made with regards fighting insurgency and fighting banditry. But don't you think, because every now and then you must also follow news reports and hear that 21 bandits were killed or 11 or 12, or dozens of them were killed in strikes by the army and all of that. Don't you think that it is simply just insiders sabotaging the efforts of the Nigerian army and at the same time inadequacies with regards funding that may have made this war to exist for so long? No, no, no. You know, the Chinese have saying, the Chinese addict says, when a fish rocks, it starts from the head. Constructionally, the service chiefs should have sworn their oath to the constitution. But as it is in Nigeria, the service chiefs swear their oath to President Buhari. President Buhari is the reason. I'm not making allegations. No, I'm telling you how it is. I have had time to speak to generals and they told me if President Buhari is serious about fighting this thing, he should just give an instruction. Two weeks, every bandit, every flony headman, every flony in the bush, hand over your weapons. After that, two weeks, anybody seen with weapons anywhere would now be treated as a hostile person and be shot at. That will end it all. But he now asked us to submit our guns. We did submit our guns in 2017, 2016, 2018. And suddenly, it's only the flannies who come in from Manly, Côte d'Evoire, Central African Republic that come here with their guns. And what do we have? Mayhem all over the country. And you can see it started in Boronau. They called it Boko Haram. It came down to the Northwest. They called it Folane Bandit Militia. It come down to North Central and the Southwest. They called it Folane Health Bandit Militia. Today it came down to the Old Eastern Nigeria and we call it Unungunmen. Yet at all because of how very lackadaisical the President has handled security. If it is not him, how come nobody has been arrested? How come nobody has been prosecuted? How come the flannies who do this things, not one single one, have been held? So if nobody is touched and those who are held are asked to be released, which is Russians on my boat, everything stops at the table of the President. That's why I tell you, I'm not just making an allegation now. You can talk the way you talk so that you can safeguard your station. But the truth needs to be told. President Buheri's acceptance of these things is the reason why it sustains. If he has become President of Nigeria and then agree that there are no favorities you should be given to the Folane Bandit or Folane Health Bandit Militia, all this will stop. You cannot say that our servicemen don't know what they are doing. It's not true. Our police go internationally and come back with medals. Our soldiers are well-known when they do peacekeeping in Liberia. Just call the name on the basis and people are very good. Our problem is that the President, President Mohammed Buheri, tolerates these things is also part of the slow-motion civil war by the Folane against the rest of the country. I thought by now the Folane would have made their case why this has been this bad, why they are aggressive against other people. They've not done that. Instead, they want to continually change it as if it is Folane versus Igbo. If the Igbo's are not happy at the violence and the impunity and the weaponization of nepotism, they don't turn against them that they are against. I understand that Igbo's do not allow the Folane to have their way easily. And the same thing is now beginning to occur in the south-west of the Yoruba. The Folane should stop because what they are doing is not sustainable. Why do I say this? They don't have numbers. The day the country would turn against them, they could suffrage genocide. So they should stop all this things. There is no way in what they are doing. It is not sustainable. Please, President Buhari should for once show dignity, show that he is intelligent and stop supporting this aggression against indigenous people across Nigeria. As far as I'm concerned, the insecurity is as a function of President Buhari's strategy to try to use his people to seize land everywhere. It will not work. It will never work. They don't have the numbers. They will never succeed. All right. Of course, we hope that there would not be anything as far as a genocide like you also mentioned. I want us to, I think we have just a few minutes left in this discussion, I want you to also speak with regards Ahmad Gumi. There's a report that I had seen earlier that the DSS may have picked him up or arrested him after the statements that he made concerning collusion between the army and bandits. How do you expect that this would play out? And what's your assessment of the role that he has played in the last few months or years? Well, the role he played is the role we have seen. He is saying, privately, whether I inquired why this is going on. He said, well, if to get the fuller days away from killing houses in the Northwest, you can add to them that they should target those who are non-Muslims. That was why he told the bandits that their problem are soldiers who are Christians. And we think that is not the way to go. When that happened, the army did not wait here. And now he is preaching that we should allow the bandits to seize land whereas we know that the main reason for the foreign aggression at country-wide is land because Buhari had begged Docs for land to resettle these repudies from Mali, Central African Republic, Côte d'Ivoire, and other parts of Africa in Nigeria. We Nigerians said, no, don't get our people are historically emotional about land. Buhari asked for land calling it Gracie's Resort, Nigerians Refuse. He asked for land calling it Chaos Colony, Nigerians Refuse. He wanted to consolidate underground surface water close to six kilometers of land and back-men land. Nigerians Refuse. Now he's desperately asking that we look at Gazettes done in the 50s and 60s. Gazettes are not... These are regional Gazettes. Regional Gazettes, when they clash with the constitution, the constitution becomes supreme. So I don't know who advises Buhari. I think whoever advises him or he just desperate he wants land to resettle Fulani refugees, nobody will give them land. So that's what you see in Gumi now preaching that his Fulani band should be allowed to become custodians of land, to become watchmen over land. They are desperate for land. The other day the same Gumi went to Preservasandre, asking Preservasandre to join Gumi's campaign to secure land and resettle the Fulani's. No, these Fulani's are not Nigerians. It is easy to bring them in and get someone like Pantami to infuse their name into that band. It is not easy giving them land. Nobody's willing to give land. They've been to the south-west. The Europeans refuse. They've been to the southeast. The Igbo's refuse. They went to Benu Estates committing ethnic cleansing. We saw what they did in Platu State. 58 villages are sad in Rio, but it's not there just now. You can see the sustained ethnic cleansing against Igbagi and the Adara in Katoona. There is also the same war against the Pachama in Newman, in Adamawa, all over the country. The Fulani has seen land and President Buhari is advancing that by seeking to get this land through all sorts of ways. Now I'm happy that Professor Sage has told him that even if there were gazettes that have been overtaken by the Land Use Act in the Constitution, the Constitution is supreme, far more supreme to any gazette. So I think the President Buhari should stop all this, get all this in the high house and understand that the only way he can reset on the Fulani is to make sure he deals with regional leaders, try to implement the 2015 peace agreement in Mali. Let them stay in Mali. They can live in Mali and come here. They can live in Kondivore and come here. Let them go back to their country. Thank you very much. You obviously have a lot to get off your chest. But thank you very much. And also to Harriet Jimesia Security Consultant. Thank you both for joining us this evening and for speaking with us. Mr Ananduji, thank you very much once again for sharing your thoughts with us. You know, a pretty tough conversation here, but thanks for joining us. Of course, we'll take a short break now when we return. President of the Senate, Ahmad Lawan, reveals the state of Nigeria's economy. We'll be right back.