 Hello everyone. Happy Saturday. Thanks for taking time to come join us at bad camp and talk and listen About some some matters that are important to us and and I hope important to you, too We're here to talk a little bit about inclusivity but and about how to you know kind of think beyond standards and and and achieve outcomes and and mean and focus on meaning So let me give you a little sense of what we're going to talk about here if my slides will advance. There we go We'll do a little Definition make sure we're understanding the problem. We're we're trying to solve We'll introduce ourselves. We'll jump straight into a demo We won't wait till the end of the presentation to To bait you into the great reveal because I think it's important to really focus on the you know substance and and Look at some real-world scenarios. So after that, we'll have I think some interesting takeaways and Reflections will do a little bit of a fireside chat and explore some of these topical areas They're outlined here in the agenda looking at compliance how that compares to usability We'll talk about inclusive design practices how we can incorporate some strategies into Our approaches and ultimately how we can transform organizations to embrace Inclusion and build that into their their culture last we'll leave you with some resources that you can download and in access to Continue some some learnings or have access to tools and live a Q&A at the end Please Continue to use the chat If you have a question if you don't mind putting a cue before your questions So as we scroll back through chats, we can isolate the questions from the conversation that would be very helpful There are Just also some wayfinding here in the hop-in tool It kind of gives equal play to all of the presenters. So if you double-click on any of the windows you can see Aspects of the presentation larger. There's a little video demo We'll be playing later. So you might want to think ahead to click on that and make it larger once we we get to that point Thank you so much for being here. All right, so what are we here to talk about? Well, we're here to talk about Inclusion right we're here to talk about accessibility, but really at the core of it Isn't isn't inclusion in our team, but what what is that? What? What is inclusion? Well, Andrew, I'm glad you asked because I prepared in it a little in advance and pulled up this definition I found on the wind on the interwebs from global diversity practice calm And I thought it summed things up pretty nicely Inclusion is an organizational effort and practices in which different groups or individuals having different backgrounds are culturally and socially accepted and welcomed and equally treated and I think we want to really focus Because what this means essentially is that everyone regardless of race religion age orientation or ability is treated respectfully and equitably and Equity is really the key here first We have to recognize that not everyone is equal in terms of their abilities and then we can take steps to ensure that everyone is Accommodated appropriately so they can just contribute and participate and accomplish their goals to the best of their abilities and feel Like they matter as much as everyone else So an example in the physical world might be having a wheelchair ramp at the entrance to a building that is you know to get up some steps or An auditory indicator at a crossing So like so there's a signal that the light has turned green for those who may not be able to see the traffic lights So being inclusive means thinking about how we can accommodate everyone and giving that the attention and energy Required to ensure that people are treated equitably so that they feel included in society Very well said More specifically, you know, we we work online we have these notions of digital inclusion Can we get a little more? Precise around what this means William like can you can you help us think through what what digital inclusion means sure So a buzzword that goes around is is accessibility a lot and as Crispin mentioned You know we're talking about equality and and being equitable For people regardless of their ability and the other differences that to make us all unique So the world is increasingly digital the commerce is done online Conferences are done online. We you know, we're all aware of what impact that has but if you take that away from someone and prevent them from being able to participate in in digital spaces like we're doing now then That's the opposite of inclusion. That's that's being exclusive right so Accessibility is is going to be a theme that we talked about it's something we need to be talking about it's important And it's the important first step, but it's not the end goal for us Usability is is a nice little add-on on top of that accessibility being the minimum You know that achievement and then usability being kind of on top of the fact that I can technically access something How usable is it for me when I'm accessing it and then digital inclusion? Which is our ultimate goal is taking into consideration everyone that's using the product Do we have not the same experience for everyone else but an equitable experience with regards to efficiency and enjoyment of the platform that that's being used Thanks for that distinction Very important to wrap our heads around the problem. Well, just take a minute to introduce ourselves to the the audience So they can understand where where we're coming from what our particular vantage points are if you don't mind introducing yourselves and You know, you're where you are what you're from where you're from and And perhaps a little word about how you first got interested about accessibility and I'll I'll kick it off My name is Andrew Malus. I am CEO of Calamuna an agency That is based in Oakland and Toronto and we do a lot of work with nonprofits and mission-driven organizations I got really interested in accessibility Many years ago. I went to an accessibility focused conference just out of curiosity. It was at the University of Toronto They gave us a tour of a lab which was the base of Robarts library, which is the was just incredible They had all of the assistive technologies That were present and they showed us how to test Websites for all these amazing with all these amazing devices and it just really opened my mind to to so many possibilities and opportunities And really just been you know for the last 15 years or so fascinated with the topic William Hi, my name is William Rushall. I'm the director of client services and technical development with the American Foundation for the Blind and I've Been in this space for my entire career about 12 years ago I applied for an internship at a place called AFB Tech in college and at the time I hadn't I didn't know anything about accessibility didn't know about assistive technology or anything like that and so when I interviewed with a guy who was blind and He told me that he he really liked the writing sample I'd sent in I sent in a Word document and but he said that I misspelled a word and I checked later and I hadn't actually misspelled a word I used like one of those neighbor words where it didn't show up on spell check. It was very similarly spelled. It was incorrect word But he found that and I didn't and I had to figure out how he could do that So that was a really just fascinating intro into the world of how people interact with technology in ways that I didn't expect And I've been working with AFB ever since in the technology lab evaluating technology Moving towards some research-based Projects and then more recently moving into consulting working with clients and trying to make their products more accessible Usable and inclusive people with disabilities Thanks so much, Crispin Hi, my name is Crispin Bailey, and I'm the director of design and user experience at Kalimuna. I'm based in up near Toronto, Canada I'm responsible for Kalimuna's design and strategy practice which includes managing our design and content strategy team and supporting the team on discovery and design phases for our client projects I've been passionate about web accessibility for nearly 20 years starting with my introduction to the topic which happened a Long time ago when I read a book called Building Accessible Person named Joe Clark in 2002 and Shortly after that I read a book called designing with web standards by Jeffrey Zeldman That came out in I think 2003 and this was a really pivotal time in web design because as web designers we were finally able to Stop building websites with tables and transparent spacer gypses And we could use CSS to style and layout our pages and that was really eye-opening but it was really fundamentally eye-opening to me to understand that as It was just as important and in the case of accessibility even more important how a web page was built and structured than it was how it looked and That's been something I've carried with me throughout the rest of my entire web design career since that time spoken on the topic at camps and Champion the cause wherever I can in our own agency and open about Thanks so much It's a pleasure to be here with all of you so without Further due I'd like to pass it over to William and give us a little demo of You know what well, why don't you introduce it William? It's so well So this is just a quick demo of a couple of things that you can find when you go to a website and turn on a screen reader and if you've never seen this before it can be pretty interesting and There's also a bit at the end pair kind of the way that Automated test tools can identify issues and the difference between what an automated test tool finds and what a manual tester will find so I Think it's I think it speaks for itself And it'll set up some interesting conversations kind of harkening back to that your minimum standard of accessibility moving towards really understanding What users are experiencing so I will go ahead and click play on this video and just as a reminder I think you could double-click the video for a vaccine finder and that should maximize it So and Andrew give me a thumbs up if the sounds okay I'm at vaccine finder.org and I'm going to step through this interface in a couple of different ways So first we'll just go through the keyboard and mouse and we'll see that we've got a form here for selecting a vaccine And if I click on select the vaccine it opens up a modal and the modal has some filter radio buttons across the top for ages and a long list of checkboxes for the types of vaccines I might be interested in So I'll go ahead and select some of those click add for vaccines and we'll see that we're back at the original form We've got a location field that we fill in so I'm going to type in Florida for that And go ahead and select that and a search area for the number of miles away from the location. I selected click search for a vaccine And on the left we've got a list of results on the right We've got a map with pins on it as we would see pretty typically and if I select one of these stores from the list here I'm going to be taken into a details page with things like the location the contact information hours So very simple took me about you know, 30 seconds to do it with a mouse primarily and now let's try Doing the same thing with just a keyboard, which is something you should be able to do with any website So we'll go ahead and try the same thing and we'll tab we will use space arrow up and down You know pretty simple controls for activating and interacting with a page with a keyboard So at the top of this form we can see that there's a faint focus indicator for vaccines and if I keep tabbing through the interface It works as expected until all of a sudden after the near this location field We have nothing and if I tab again, I don't know where my focus has gone tab again And then finally it shows up at the end of the map So there seems to be some non-focusable elements in here, but I don't really know because my focus was gone So we'll go ahead and open select your vaccines and open that modal I can tab through the radio buttons pretty well For selecting an age and then once I get into this list of checkboxes my focus disappears again and I'm just gonna hit space and Okay, so focus was in this list, but I didn't know where it was So if I just keep tabbing through pressing space I can play guess and check with this To select my vaccines, but that's not advisable So we'll go and power through it with add four vaccines takes us back to the original form now We need to add our location with this location fields I'm just gonna start typing Florida and then tab a couple of times here and then it just closed So I did not press anything I didn't press space or enter to confirm the location that I wanted from this autocomplete list But it closed anyway I'll try that again because I really want to get to that fourth Element there and I tabbed through it and this time it was kind and let me do it So it's pretty unexpected. It seems to be based on the timing that I use that time. It it collapsed again. So Okay, no, it's not great, but we'll keep moving the problem here with this search area combo box or drop down select control thing and I can make an assumption that my focus is on it And I will try it and then I was correct I've got the list of options here and I would expect to be able to arrow up and down through these and change the option And it doesn't seem to be happening as I open down here But I'll go ahead and press space and see what happens selected 50 miles. Great. Okay, so Again, I can make some guesses here as to what's going on It might be difficult to select exactly what I want, but at least I can make this thing work if I play around with it Some but I can't really do it accurately. So we'll go ahead and search for vaccine and On the left side, we're gonna get a list of the results as we saw before on the right side We're gonna get this map so we will tab through the interface again, we're at the top of the page and Then I want to go into this list here. So I'm gonna tab. Oh, my focus has disappeared Tab, yeah, now we're at the end of the map So it looks like this entire list has been skipped and it's not in the focus orders I actually wanted to click on one of these results one of these providers to get hours or other kind of information Like we saw on the details page. I can't do that with a keyboard. So it's a pretty simple example It's not hard to test for keyboard accessibility like this And it's really important to make sure all the controls are functional because The next use case I have is the screen reader user And if you've never heard or used the screen reader before it might be a little bit overwhelming a little bit verbose But the mechanisms are essentially the same I'm just navigating the web page with the keyboard, but the screen reader is going to tell me things as I land on them So each element needs to have useful information about it. So we'll go ahead and turn that on I'm gonna use non-visual desktop access, which is a Windows screen reader. It's free and open source and there are Built-in screen readers for all of the main operating systems So that tone lets me know that NVIDIA is now running and now I'm on the page and NVIDIA is gonna try to start talking. So as I tab through it It's gonna read and we can hear things that it's better landmark list clickable find vaccine visited link Clickable list find back to the FAQ link clickable FAQ link. So that's pretty expected It's gonna tell me what the name of it is what the role is and the value that's selected select your vaccines button So we'll go in here. We see that select your vaccines button is labeled Effectively and then I'll have again and I just have this element that just says button So that's not great because I don't know what that button means Let's go ahead and open the vaccine modal here Cancel button all ages button zero three moes button four mo six yrs So as I tab through the interface here, uh, it seems to to make Pretty good sense and I will go ahead and go into the list of checkboxes Except 1960 dt checkbox not checked dtopi checkbox not checked hepatitis a 18 plus checkbox not checked space checked So I can tab through these I get the label and it tells me if it's checked or not checked So everything is working pretty well actually better with a screen reader running than if I was just using the keyboard alone Because at least I know what these checkboxes are Have also like to see of them habit space checked If we can reach add three vaccines button And then I'll go ahead and go down to the button and add three vaccines space hepatitis a 18 So it takes me back to the original form here button So I'll tap to the interface and then I'll know button button I hear a button button Button I have no idea what these things are button And even worse it's different from what I saw before The screen reader experience is pretty similar to the keyboard experience throughout this entire Interface so let's go ahead and take a look and see what an automated scan is going to tell us When I hadn't refreshed the page and we're going to open up the select vaccines modal again So that we have something interesting to scan and if you remember we had all of the problems with finding those checkboxes And then we should also have everything behind This element is well open So let's go to the axe tool and to be clear. I think the axe accessibility checker is great Because it finds real problems and problems that should be fixed and doesn't have a lot of or any false positives But we'll see what it actually tells us about this experience, which I hope I've demonstrated is not optimal So we have 54 issues 49 of the issues are related directly to elements must have sufficient color contrast Which possibly is true, but looking through this and doing some of the some testing beforehand What we actually saw an experience doesn't does not have any significant color contrast problems So the accessibility checker struggles with that if it's complex css or if there's background images or hidden elements that just need to be cleaned up So it's worth checking into but I don't think that it impacted our actual experience any we have Aria hidden equals true must not be present on the document body documents must have one main landmark Zooming and scaling must not be disabled page must contain one Level one heading and aria element must not contain focusable elements All of those are true and good suggestions that should be fixed on the page But none of them had anything to do with unlabeled buttons had anything to do with the keyboard control not working on that autocomplete field and the weirdness that we experienced with the search area drop down as well so the types of issues that this automated checker are finding are not issues that as a user just now I actually experienced any impact at all trying to accomplish selecting a vaccine and moving through the process to find details about a pharmacy so There we have it If you've never seen that before it's probably a ton of information to get uh to to Parse all at once But I think that we can you know go into a little bit of detail about what it means When we're talking about finding these issues So I'll go ahead and kick it back over to you andrew Thanks. Well, I mean let's take a minute to think about what what just happened here. Um, you know, what Are the What's the impact on on the user? right We essentially had pretty decent accessibility from a Compliance standpoint a few suggestions as you pointed out um, but the net outcome was The user couldn't really achieve the goals the organization wanted them to and that they were there to um Uh to try and achieve right so, um, really interesting to think about that All right, let's um, let's get into it a little bit. Uh, let's talk about Um, this matter of compliance, you know versus usability as as the demonstration has um has suggested Um, what what's important to think about here? Um, william like when um organizations are are approaching Um approaching making their sites accessible usable um, how How does this change in in focus that we're advocating for? effect Effect there, how can it affect their there? How should they be thinking about these questions of usability versus compliance? Yeah, so well the first thing I want to say is that you know that the automated testing and the automated scanning None of them complain or none of them report to find all of the conformance issues that are out there um And that's at least good that they're they're honest and and automated testing can be an effective tool that can be implemented into a A development workflow, but it it's not necessarily like like we said, um Telling us what users are actually experiencing And so we have this set of conformance issues that the people that sites will have and we have a set of Usability problems that and goals that users have and I think we actually have a have a slide here um That that kind of shows the the two and the the interlap the overlap between the two so But we're what we're suggesting is that an accessibility conformance issue a wick hag Compliance issue or whatever should should be resolved that should be a goal, but in a world of limited resources and limited timescales, um, there is We would prefer that more effort be placed on understanding what the user experience actually is And using that as a priority or to prioritize the way that Issues are fixed. So, you know, we'll we'll go into a lot of details about what we think an ideal process would look like as far as integrating this Integrating inclusion into design and development and in policies and all of that But I think the the important takeaway to start considering is let's figure out what matters most. Let's take an agile approach to Like we take with everything else in finding and identifying problems that really matter And that that then can alleviate some of the barriers to even attempting to start that people will have like for example When you receive an automated scan that says you have 150,000 problems on your site That you might as well have A billion problems on your site. Where do you start with that? Right? There's no way for you to approach that in any meaningful way to start at resolving those problems but if we look at how People are actually using our site. What do we want people to be Accomplishing what are those user goals and then start testing those Then we'll find a much smaller Set of problems to be resolved and then as we move forward and mature We can look at the rest of those conformance issues as well Let's let's dig into that a little more Think about how How we can apply this thinking, you know at the earliest stages of Of our processes we've talked a little bit about You know remediation about conformance about usability and about fixing things But there are opportunities To avoid some of these problems, you know in the first place and Let's Investigate that a little bit. Crispin. Can you can you walk us through some opportunities in In the type of work that we do building building websites building platforms And and where where we can apply our Our thinking sure Well, you know as william was alluding to it's really important that the you know the philosophical approach Is not just about checking off the boxes and Meeting some compliance guidelines so that I just wanted to call that out because Ultimately, there are a lot of ways people can achieve that compliance And some of them are terrible from a user from a ease of use standpoint standpoint There's even just recently very topical this week. I heard about a case being brought against A company that's used an overlay For to provide accessibility to their website But it doesn't provide an equal experience For those users with assistive technology. So what we advocate for is thinking about and and that's really Those overlays that are being basically tacked on top of a website that has problems Is supposed to be you know a shortcut to fix a problem that never should have been there in the first place And it wouldn't have been there in the first place if they had designed from the ground up With accessibility and inclusivity in their design and development process So, you know this this diagram that we're sharing here is uh, you know, very broad life cycle kind of illustration But we what we want to do is incorporate the accessibility considerations At the very beginning of the project and of course this is going to work best for new projects like a site redesign It's always easier to start from the ground up and start from scratch in that respect But some of the still some of the issues still apply even if you're just trying to make tweaks to an existing site So like I said, ideally even before you start getting into a redesign project even before like an rfp goes out It should be top of mind But at this point it's a good idea at the beginning of the project to define what the requirements are And it's also really important that everyone on the team whether they're content producers or designers or developers I'll have a basic knowledge of accessibility and some of the concerns Because a lot of this stuff is really easy if you just do it right and if you know what you're doing So during discovery we define our user types and their goals and this sets the stage for the entire project And it's really critical to incorporate user goals that identify accessibility concerns For example, we might have a user type or types that represent people with disabilities And this gets both the design and the dev team and the client on the same page about ensuring adequate accommodations That will be considered later in the project And sometimes the client already has a mandate But if they don't this is an opportunity to educate them on the importance of ensuring that their site is successful And reassuring them that it doesn't mean that they can't still have a beautiful highly engaging and interactive website During the design phase, which often includes content production This is when we begin to incorporate some of those considerations that we've previously defined So for example, the content needs to be structured semantically while it's still in word or gather content or google docs Right like specify what the h1 is what the h2s are the h3 is make sure that they're nested properly And then when we're wireframing, you know, let's take into account things like And wayfinding and any important elements with interactivity And then obviously once we get into the visual design We want to look at color contrast ui elements like inline links and how those are treated Active states or focus states like william was showing us in the walkthrough And then things like you know, where do we want to apply progressive enhancement for animations or transitions? But still make sure that fundamentally underneath we have a a usable website by anybody with any technology And then, you know, we might prototype components. That's another opportunity to test our designs Again, doing this all along the way is just so much easier. We can just catch these things and and fix them quickly So whether it's a low fidelity clickable wireframe or a fully responsive html or css prototype We can test with users to flag any potential issues before building them into the cms like drupal Now while we can address most concerns without any additional cost or impact on the project timeline or budget That's not to say there won't be challenges and during implementation Sometimes we need to include third party widgets or plugins or some modules that we didn't we didn't write and those may not be accessible So then it becomes a conversation, of course with the client potentially or with your boss about you know potential options And you know, hopefully there's another tool that can be used to accomplish the same goal But sometimes we may want to contact the maintainer about about the issue And hopefully they'll fix it Or maybe we'll have to build something from scratch or maybe we can fix that module ourselves and contribute that fix back to the community So, you know the the message here is you know, if you're Thinking about these concerns from the beginning and all the way through the project It doesn't have to be an a big extra lift or a big extra cost And hopefully you haven't left it till the end of the project Because that's when it's going to be a lot more work and that means more time and more money To fix any issues Thanks so much chrispen So let's let's talk a little bit about how How we can define a strategic approach to solving these to solving this problem to to Addressing user testing in particular, you know how How do we where do we start like how does how does this take shape? William can you give us a little bit of insight into into how one goes about you know incorporating This kind of user testing Into a practice demystify it a little bit for us. I think the demo was useful But if you could help build some for just to the for the audience that would be that would be very appreciated Yeah, sure so The key is to just start doing it. I think there is nothing particularly Difficult about using assistive technology it is Accessible on all the different platforms that we're developing on So I think it is a responsibility that we all have to understand how people are using Technology at least at a baseline level. We can never As a sighted person myself, I can never say how a user experience is going to be I have a team and I have colleagues who have Who are authentic user testers? with with disabilities who perform the testing as part of our practice and That is I think the ideal situation to be able to actually find people in the community that are using your products to be able to find that That feedback but the key is to start There's there's A lot you can do just by Not touching your mouse and trying to you know sign up for your website or something like that So just use the keyboard and attempt to fill out a form And that will show you a lot of deficiencies or maybe not. Maybe you've got a perfect website But that will uncover a lot of problems that that people may be encountering Just because you try to use it in a slightly different way than was expected You can also try your browser zoom in On your web page make sure that when you zoom in using Using the the browser tools that your content reflows, you know responsive design is an expectation now But is it responsive up to 200 300 magnification, which is what somebody with low vision would be using there's also like Crispin was mentioning design considerations regarding you know contrast and those sorts of Those things that that can be done and there are lots of checklist Lots of resources will provide one at the end of this presentation where you can learn more about the ways that that can be done So I think you know turning on a screen you're downloading nvda as a developer or a designer It doesn't take long for you to really get an understanding of of why you're doing what you're doing And I think that really is that's that's really important to start Um, ideally we're able to start building empathy as as designers and developers and then Solving most of those problems that that that don't need to be solved by an expert, right? There are certainly agencies afb is one of them that that can provide that detailed Evaluation conformance and that expert level knowledge that maybe organization doesn't have but that's Not where we need to start because it's not a switch. We can flip it's a journey that we're all going to be starting to become more inclusive and It can start just with some simple testing And there are there are resources that we can provide to get started doing that Two two quick follow-ups here for you william One you mentioned nvda Which is is great if you're on windows If people aren't on windows, you know, do you have another suggestion for them as to where to start and then as well like why Why do we start with a screen reader? You know, there's so many other assistive technologies out there Should we be testing for all of these other technologies from eye gaze to other things can speak to to that and And why it's strategically important to to focus on these tools Yep, so if you're on a on a mac you can press command f5 and voiceover will start talking and you can press command f5 again to make it Stop talking, which is usually the follow-up to that statement Because otherwise you can get frustrated not understanding what it is but voiceover On the mac is is great and on ios The voiceover is in the accessibility menu. You can set up a Accessibility shortcut so you triple tap the home button and voiceover will start speaking so you can toggle it on and off Similarly in android. There's a screen reader called talk back And there are lots of other options on windows as well jaws narrator is built in so There are lots of different screen readers that are freely available and at no cost and built into the platforms that we're We're using so the reason why we start I would say we start with a keyboard And then we move to the screen reader case keyboard is something that you probably have in front of you right now And you can just start doing that without doing anything But the reason why the key the the screen reader use case is the more complex one is because all of the Content on the page has to be structured christen was was talking about semantics and and the metadata that is part of the html spec Similarly everything i'm saying about the web is also applicable to native ios and android. It's just slightly different apis But that that semantic structure and the requirement for having well defined And alternative text for images and things like that for someone who can't see the screen Is the most complex use case and so if you cover that and you've you've already covered the keyboard use case And then if you've covered the keyboard use case you've covered the switch access use case where somebody who has a mobility Mobility impairment might be using switches instead of a keyboard a typical keyboard Similarly with eye tracking. That's an emulation on a form mouse So it's great to be able to test with all of these things, but the way that apis and the html spec and the operating systems and platforms are Made to work is that it doesn't really matter what people are using but the screen reader use case is one that is going to cover most of the most of the different Scenarios that you may be able to avoid Doing if you're not testing with the screen reader for example, but the point is the apis when well When conformed to properly and You're using all the html and the aria spec correctly Any assistive technology you plug into it whether it's a braille display Or any of the other types of assistive technology should just work And that's the point of having assistive technology. It adapts to the user. It doesn't adapt to your interface Thanks so much. Um, well, we're almost out of time. Uh, just um wanted to come back and reflect on on on this question of um, of cultural change and, um, just thinking about, you know, uh There's a firstly. I mean, I'm I'm I'm elated that so many organizations are responding to the To the the challenge of making their technologies more accessible and more inclusive And that's great. You know as as agencies we're seeing more and more Requirements, you know come up for Um Accessibility conformance sometimes, you know, that can be at the detriment of usability. Um, you know as we've as we've noted And um, and so I I think, you know at the end of the day We've seen be really successful in in terms of transforming organizations is is more more than just saying, you know Hey, we're going to do something about this. We're going to put this requirement in our rfps that that's It's okay, but it really takes a bit of an institutional shift a bit of the internal champions to be able to take this mandate and continue to move it forward even beyond You know a redesign because uh accessibility inclusivity it it affects The whole life cycle of of the product and and that's something that the organization needs to assume, you know responsibility for it goes into Drafting accessibility policies it it goes into You know changing that that psychology, you know, there's some there's some kind of like psychology of conformance that that occurs right when you're trying to just Respond and you're being responsive and you're trying to adhere it divorces you from the potential to take on Leadership to find the gaps in those standards and help move them forward to contribute back in open source communities To make the changes that are going to have an impact on on user lives and that that affects, you know whole swath of user experience practices and how we design products and how we're building Themes, you know for for Drupal itself. I think it's it's it's a really great great example of how changing our Perspective can create a much better product instead of trying to tack on, you know accessibility at the end Um, so we're coming up on on time. Um, I'll scan through see if there's some other Questions that we can answer Happy to stick around a little bit before we go wanted to leave you with some some resources We have a little white pdf download that has links to some of the tools that we mentioned here and some other kinds of utilities as well as Standards and how how twos and FAQs and and a good place to sort of get started If you're looking for a compendium of resources and it's available at bit li 11 y which is dash tip s dash s So that's there for you to to use if you'd like to get in touch with us Can reach out to to kalimuna or the american foundation for the blind at afb.org and our kalimuna calm and let's see if we have some time for for questions here Apologies earlier for Yes, the the animation going on a little longer than we had intended got a little stuck And I think we've answered Richard's question already about Mac And we'll paste paste the bit li link into the chat. That's not a problem I'll do that any other thoughts And questions so far Got a little little extra time maybe Crispin what what have you what have you seen as far as You know the most kind of dastardly Integrations or or things that people want that may that may really impact Usability and inclusivity in the sort of earlier stages of the project The wants that we want this let's do it this way. This looks really cool What do we and how do we have those conversations around making sure that those solutions are inclusive? Well, yeah, there are a lot of egregious Um I guess Flagrin disregards for accessibility out there, but a lot of times it comes just from a lack of Knowledge or understanding and the worst offender is of course the auto playing background video that can't be paused And Even worse if it has audio that hasn't you know that can't be turned off these are very impactful and The the key is that it's it's not that it's going to affect everyone, but it can tremendously affect some people and so Sensitivity is a motion they can't focus on there's animation Happening in the background or on the screen and apologies for the animation earlier Because that was an example of what we don't want to do is just have something constantly moving So like an auto playing carousel is another example Just rotating through the slides so that all those marketing messages or whatever those announcements get seen But we know people don't like that They're not it's not going to Encourage them to click on things they're just just going to scroll to get that out of their faces because it's even for people Who don't have motion sensitivities. It's a distraction So those are some of the things I've seen and what I'd like to advocate for with our clients when we're having these conversations is If we want to do these things we can But we have to put the right mechanisms in place so that they can be accessible so that they can be turned off stopped whatever And I like to you know advocate for usability and that's something that's really needs to be emphasized Accessibility with with poor usability is not a good solution You need both because just you can make an accessible website by all like like wick egg 2.1 AAA and it can suck As a user experience for anyone or for everyone So you really need to focus on the usability and the accessibility William, how do we um, have you seen um organizations help transform their development culture and in particular to better better embrace and And apply these these principles for for internal teams Well, if you have the resources it's great to work with an external partner or develop an internal SME But that's not something everyone can do When we're working with with development teams our goal is with every engagement to provide more than just a list of issues but to provide the meaning and purpose behind why these issues need to be fixed and I think that that Is probably the most important thing is to build that empathy with developers because you can give a list of issues with no context and get those issues fixed once But that kind of curiosity as to why problem needs to be fixed is really what's critical to ensure that that That the culture moves forward in that development or design team so ensuring that we move with continuous improvement in mind and The knowledge transfer that we don't just fix something once and then forget why we fixed it That's that's super critical. So being intentional about absorbing that information is really important Very good Very very good. All right. Well, we're we're at crime really want to thank everyone for For being here for for thinking about these these matters posted an updated link to The the tips here in the in the chats will update our slides as well. I'm sorry. I guess our our bitly link must have gotten overrated and Yes, so there's there's the the link again if you if you need it apologies And we hope that you'll you know, you'll you'll head head forth with some renewed vigor around around usability as it as it pertains to Making your your products more inclusive and feel free to reach out have have some We'd love to chat some more about your your thoughts and and your experiences Thank thanks so much for the work that you do. These are important important topics want to make sure that the web is accessible for all and Thank you. Thank you all for for being here Thanks, Andrew. Thanks. Thanks everybody Thanks everyone. Okay