 So in this afternoon session, so the first panel part of the cultural mobility forum will be focusing on digital environmental sustainability. The format of the session will be the same as before. So there will be one moderator, Irene. There will be two speakers, Pia and Gwen. And after there will be also time for Q&A. So question and answer can be asked here and you need also like to introduce yourself, also to introduce yourself for people with visual impairment. And for those online, you can also post your question or your comment online, which can be also shared to the moderator. So I wish you a very good session together. Thank you very much, Marie. Thank you and great to see you all. I will first introduce myself briefly. I'm Irene Garofalo and on a visual level. I am a woman in my late 20s. I have dark, a bit wavy hair. And what else can I say? I have glasses. I'm about 164. I am here today to talk about environmental sustainability or rather to ask the questions about environmental sustainability to our panelists and I guess I've been busy with this topic for a few years now because with the network that I represent, ELIA, that's a European network for high arts education institutions. So arts universities across Europe and beyond. We've been looking at how to green the practices of cultural networks also together with on the move and our partners in the shift project. And so that's where I'm coming from. And I'm very happy to welcome Gwendolyn Sharpe. She is the founder of the Green Room, a nonprofit organization developing strategies for environmental and social change in the music industry. She works as director and advisor to the mayor in the city of Hulu. I hope I'm saying this correctly. And she was responsible for the bidding office of ULU 2026, European Capital of Culture. But I thought I would leave our panelists to introduce themselves actually. And so I'm going to ask maybe first when, if you can say a little bit about yourself and especially how your work connects to environmental sustainability. Thank you, Irene. Hi everyone. So my name is Gwen. I am a white woman. I have curly hair in a ponytail and I'm wearing a striped shirt. Sorry. So the Green Room is an NGO that I founded in 2016 after having worked for about 15 years in the music industry in various countries. And we, at the time, there were quite a lot of festivals working, tackling the environmental issue in the music industry. But when I was working as a tour manager, I was working with quite a lot of musicians that were trying to address the environmental issues in a quite broad way. But they were quite puzzled about how they could address that, where to start and what was really the impact of the music industry. So maybe this is kind of the paradox of our organization is that we don't actually really believe in behavior change. We believe more in systemic change. And we really had the core of environmental issues, like environmental issues at the core of our work. But we really believe that the artist shouldn't carry the burden. So we are really there to assist them. And also working with music venues, with European projects, and networks to try to see how we can first have a dialogue about this and to look at what we can actually implement to do better, but also being very aware of the different realities. Thank you, very important work that you do in the music industry. And I would like to ask you, Pia, if you could also quickly introduce yourself. Yeah, thank you. So I'm Pia Rantala-Korhonen from the beginning of this year. I have been working as a CEO of Oulu Cultural Foundation, which is responsible for Oulu's European capital of cultural year 2026. I'm 170 centimeters tall, dark, short hair, green eyes, 60 years. So this is my visual outlook. I worked already for five years during the bidding process as the head of our bidding team. And now we have still about five years to go until the big year begins in Oulu. And maybe this can show you that capital of culture, it's not about a festival year. It's about transformation process, long-term transformation process. And our main theme is cultural climate change. So we want to combine both the cultural mental atmosphere in our city, but of course also the real climate change issues, which is really important, especially in the north, where we can already see that the nature has changed. And maybe just for our international audience, could you say where Oulu is actually? Yes, if you look at the map of Europe, so Finland is up in the north. And in Finnish map, Oulu is quite in the middle of Finland, but because whole north Finland is so sparsely populated area, everybody thinks that Oulu is in the north of Finland. Okay, thank you very much. So it's one hour flight from Helsinki, five and a half hours with train, not too bad. Okay, good. So we all know how we can get there. Okay, so thank you very much. So what we're looking at to discuss today is really more the aspect of digital mobility and how that connects to environmental sustainability. And this is a topic that's becoming more and more on everybody's radar. I would like to say I've had multiple conversations lately in which this topic came up. And people are wondering, you know, should we be greening our digital practices as well as our other practices and how should we go about that. And I hope with this panel we can explore that a little bit further. And I would like to start with the role of data because in climate action, climate mitigation is always seen as one of the key elements. So climate mitigation stands for reducing one's negative impact on the environment. And data collection tends to play an important role in that. First of all, you know, to have scientific backing for what we are actually doing and also to try and figure out if you're making process, if you're really reducing your carbon emissions, for instance, or if that's not happening. So data is an important factor. And my first question goes to Pia, sorry, actually goes to Guan to ask her, you know, could you say something about where people could find data on the digital carbon footprint of mobility activities? It's actually a tricky question because we don't have so many studies yet. And even like real numbers, it's difficult to have very different numbers depending on what you are looking at and the different methodologies that are being used. But if we look on a global scale, we know that the digital impact represents about 4% of worldwide emissions. And if you look at numbers for countries, I have numbers for France where I come from actually, but it represents about 6.2% of the energy usage. It's about 3.2% of the carbon emissions and it's about 2.2% of the water use. And then if you look at resources that are used to make all actually the equipment and everything that we need for our digital use, it represents about 4 billion tons of resources that are extracted. So you might say like, okay, so 3.2% of carbon emissions, that's about for one person in France. It's about 400 kilos, which seems quite a small number. But if you look at the objectives of the Paris Agreement, which says that if we want to stay under 1.5 degrees, that represents about 1.4 of the quota for one person in a year. So you see that it's quite a big amount actually, quite big numbers. And we often have this idea that because it's dematerialization that it's invisible, so we don't see it as much as you would see, for example, on a festival field, all the plastic bottles, all the waste that you think, okay, so you don't really know what it represents. But the numbers are really growing and we know that by probably 2025, it's going to be like now if it's 4% worldwide, it's probably going to be 8% and it's increasingly growing. So for us as cultural practitioners, we don't really have adapted calculators to look into this. But for instance, we made an experiment with my organization and we worked on our website because we thought like this is a good way to start actually and to look at what it actually means to have an eco-designed website. So we were starting to work on this before the pandemic actually. But then we had quite a lot of time to work further on that. And while doing that, we managed actually to have a website that has the weight of the pages is 18 times lighter than an average website. And it was also an occasion for us to tackle like accessibility, but also at the same time as having lower energy impacts to think how to make our website the most accessible possible. And also everything relating to protection of privacy. And this is where also a lot of data are taken by your website, but you don't necessarily know that this is happening. And this is also using quite a lot of energy that you probably you don't have to. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, first of all, there's a lot of data that we use and that we are not really aware of how it's being measured. And at the same time, one of the biggest reasons to tackle this digital footprint is that there is this big increase predicted for the coming time. And so my one follow up question for you is, of course, today we're looking really at mobility and cultural mobility. And so how, how would you define that the urgency of actually having a conversation about about the digital carbon footprint in this mobility context. Well, building on what we've heard also on previous panels and about this acceleration of values. Like, for instance, when we were talking about dance and performance online, and that you actually need to have good quality equipment at home. The impact of the biggest carbon footprint of digital use is actually the manufacture of all this equipment. Like the more you will go with a new phone every year, a new computer, the bigger, more immersive experience. This is like requiring more and more energy, more and more resources to be made. So it's actually this, it's also this acceleration in the sense that we really need to address. And I think this is very, very present in the music industry, especially. There were many issues already dealing with the digital before COVID. But there was an interesting study also that was made in the US by a researcher from MIT called Kyle Divine. And he was showing like he drew the whole history of recorded music and was showing that at first it was always, it has always been a major exploiter of natural and human resources. Like in the 20s, you had all the shellac, which is like an insect-based resin to make the ancestors of vinyls. Like vinyl production also in the 70s was exposing workers to toxic fumes and to pollution. And now you have also like the child labor in mines for extraction of rare metals to make your phones or computers. At the same time, you have also all the habits that we have as music consumers. There was a report that I found really interesting that showed that people actually 77% that use YouTube, use it to listen to music, which is actually you have a video, but no one is actually watching that. So it's also like kind of rethinking our ways and things that are kind of automatic and we don't think that it actually has an impact, but it has. So it's also about this mobility of works. And it has been said also before we have this idea that it's really accessible, that everybody can really access that. But if you look also at the numbers, it's 40% of the population that doesn't have access to internet. And that's about 10 billion people in South Asia and I think around 800,000 people in Africa. So it also means who do you reach and how do you reach people. And I can continue after but maybe one more thing to be also maybe a brighter side. But I see also a lot of interesting new experiments. For instance, so I'm not a specialist of blockchain NFTs, but I know of a project which is, which I like very much, which is using actually the blockchain technology to trace the transparency of payments for artists for production. So basically, to make it very simple, when you go to a festival, you have this, you know, the little cashless thing. And in real time, when you buy your beer, for instance, or an orange juice, you will know like one zip that you get will go for the artist. One goes to the production, one goes or two goes to, I don't know, the organization. And it helps to have this transparency, but also it helps to understand why sometimes you go to a festival that is free, but you pay 8 euros for your beer or probably 20 if you're in Finland. But then it's easier for the audience to understand where the money goes. And also with this cashless that you have so many issues now that it's difficult to get your money back or you never know. Then it's also allows the audience to maybe make a donation either to the artist or to the festival or maybe to an environmental cause also. So it's not that black and white, but it can be also very, very constructive and useful. No, that's why you're on the panel. So thank you. And why here is that when we think about the sustainability of digital mobility, we also need to think not just about the mobility of people, but also really also about the mobility of artworks. And as a sector, it might be useful to start mapping out where the major sources of digital footprints are. Because, you know, maybe for the music sector, it's really the streaming that is a big source of the mission, but for performing arts or visual arts, it can be something else. So having this conversation and trying to explore that I think is very important. And you touch, of course, also on the fact that the environmental sustainability also closely relates to inclusion and other aspects that I know will also come back in our next panel. But that's very important because we can't really tackle one thing without completely forgetting about inclusion and fair pay and all these kind of other topics. But I will now give the word to Pia, because the capital of culture that you're organizing is such an interesting initiative. And I know it can be a great opportunity to stimulate conversation about certain key themes and environmental sustainability is really high on the radar. And so I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about how it will be included in the program. And especially if you're also considering the digital aspects in that, and if you have any digital mobility, digital cultural mobility plans. Yeah, well, to start with, we have an interesting project going on called the most sustainable European capital of culture. It started already during the bidding process. And already this summer we will collect data from local events about the emissions and how they deal with all green things and try to make everything so responsible way that it is possible so that we can compare with the coming bigger events. Of course, the number of events will be much more bigger in 26 than what it is this year. And if we think about the total number of the emissions in 22 compared to 26, I'm afraid that there might be more emissions still in 26. But maybe you have to count them per visitor or have some other kind of metrics that how you count them so that it's fair play. Already in our big book we promise that we will produce more than 70% of all our cultural program in hybrid way so that it can be reached live coming to Oulu or some other spots in our broad area. So it's not only about City of Oulu. We have a very broad area in the northern Finland in total 33 municipalities starting from the Russian border to the Swedish border and Oulu is the only big city in the area. So most of the area is quite sparsely populated area. So it's also quite practical that the program can be visited digitally so that you don't have to travel long distances in our own area. And of course for people who are interested in our cultural program who live in other countries, they can maybe have part of the program in digital mode and maybe they will still visit, travel to Oulu and have experiences also in our region. Part of the European capital of culture process is nowadays also evaluation and research and we are making that together with the cultural policy research center Kupore, which is the only one in Finland. And we try to find good practices from our colleagues in other parts of Europe and especially from City of Lahti, who was last year the European green capital. And they have really good data and good, good practices that how to make also cultural events in a green way so that we can have less emissions and still be more active in culture. But about the inclusion, I must say that because I belong to the generation who has studied and started working life without any digitality, that there are many, many people also in Finland and in our area who are not used to use any digital devices and maybe are not able to do that. For example my mother-in-law who is 91, those iPads and mobile phones, they don't recognize her fingertips. You can see that when you become older, that happens to your skin, it's so seen that the devices don't understand that hey, this is human being who is touching them. And that is quite paradoxical because if I think that who needs digital accessibility to cultural events most, they are those people who are not able to visit theaters or concert halls. So it would help a lot. But I think that here we need also some positive development in those enterprises who are making or devices for us so that they really understand that they are also customers, those older people. Yeah, that's a very good point. And it goes back to what we said also in the earlier panel about the conversations that we shouldn't only talk among ourselves but also try and get our voice towards people that are actually creating the technology and owning the technology. That's a very good point. And I wanted to ask you, I don't know if you're already that far since it's only 226 that the capital of culture will happen but have you already thought of some sort of design principles for your hybrid offer? So how you will integrate this sustainability aspect into that and perhaps also a little bit of the inclusion without going too far in that because I'm afraid for the next panel otherwise? Yes. Already in the bidding process when we had our first open call for the cultural program, we had a form for our proposal so that people had to tell us about how they will make the cultural climate change in their program and environmental issues are part of that cultural climate change, which we are waiting for all the program proposals and we will have the next open call in October this year. And we hope that we get also new ideas from cultural professionals and other people who are making the proposals. That's how can we make this and of course we are waiting enterprises to make new innovations for cultural professionals too. So I think that we can't make the chains alone in the cultural brands. We need also the technological part in our society to be our partners and make new innovations together. I think that's a very good point. It's about also not working in a silo in the cultural sector. We're really looking also beyond ourselves and other fields of expertise. And I think that's very important because we can create all the solutions ourselves but we do have some agency in our choices that we make. And maybe I wanted to give the word back to when and I don't know if you have any thoughts about the hybridity hybrid formats because hybrid formats are kind of seen as the future and they have so many benefits to them because you can reach out to a much broader group at the same time. At the same time you can meet in person. There's almost, I mean I have to say at Ilya we look at it sometimes and we say we can't avoid hybrid. Hybrid is bit the future. I'm not sure if I'm right but that's a little bit how we look at it. But at the same time hybrid comes with different sustainability problems because you don't only have to look at the in person sustainability but also at the Jill sustainability and how you combine that. So I wondered when if you had any any thoughts on that. Especially because we are actually taking part in the hybrid event now. No, I think I'm since COVID actually that so many people now are used to having a zoom or attending a hybrid event. I think it's really changed the mindset of people. Three years ago, it was like normal to go to Brussels for two hour meeting to fly there to fly back. I mean there was now I thought people or at least they will think about it and maybe not do it. So this is the possibility for people that are maybe close to attend the event in person and the ones that are far away but wouldn't necessarily have other things to do in the city. They can still still attend and we can still have like very meaningful meetings through through this way. But what we tend to see now in the music industry is like because so many people experienced having online concerts or online performances. So now you get the ones that are in person with sometimes hundreds of thousands of people and that already represents like 80% of the carbon footprint of the of the event. And then the concert is also live broadcasted and then there's no limits. You can really reach millions of people. So then the impact is again like really big. So it's also way like if you it's a it's a matter of scale. It's a matter of scale for events. It's a matter of scale of the audience that you reach. It's always this this balance that you have to have. So now what I'm seeing is more events that started to tackle this issue that decided to have also limited audience online. And also it allows to have a better experience because people can also exchange between them or to have a special. Yeah, an experience actually not just people watching in front of their of their screens but sharing something also with the artist having a special moment before or after like this this kind of practices. Okay, so what you're saying is it's a bit of an experimenting with the format and trying to find ways that are more sustainable. And can the technology choices also impact that or are we quite limited in that still do you think you know when you have to choose teams versus zoom or something like that. Yeah, well I think it was said before that actually all the platforms that we have we don't really have much choices right now. It's really in the hands of the gap and it's really difficult also to to monetize to get for the artists to get paid. If you just look at zoom or other online conferences tools. Sometimes you really have to choose your battles because you will have something that will be open source that will really protect your data your privacy, but maybe they won't be the greener. And then you have the ones that are actually green but then in terms of protection of data or then they won't be so it's difficult to have both. And I think that's something we're facing with all the kinds of decisions that we are taking when you try to be environmentally sustainable sometimes you have to make compromises with other things and so. So, yeah, it's just many layers. A lot of layers exactly. So, I'm also kind of wondering about how the digital footprint relates to other sustainable for environmental footprints. For instance, and that's also really related to the hybrid format so we have a travel footprint and building footprint and I had a question from someone. Lately, who asked me, you know, if we focus so much on the digital carbon footprint and reducing that don't we forget about other sources of emissions are also really big. So, I would like to try and address this question and explain the difference between maybe addressing your travel footprint and your building footprint and why it's important to also look at your digital footprint. So, would either of you like to go on this question. Well, I don't have any any data. It's just feeling that I think that it is more sustainable if you are trying to have big audiences for your cultural offer to get audiences in digital form because having millions of visitors to all in North Finland. I'm sure that it would make huge amounts of emissions if people are flying from around the world and we don't even have that much hotel rooms for them so that it's better that part of them are in some other parts of the world. And at the same time, I come back to the inclusion question because still more people in the world globally has access to internet than have possibilities to travel by plane. 80% of inhabitants in the world have never ever traveled by plane. It may be hard for us in the first world to remember and understand that but this is the reality in the world. And so if we are talking about equal opportunities to access in cultural events, so I think that still digitality has better possibilities to give that possibilities to everybody or even to more people. Thank you. When would you like to add to that? Yeah, I think it's very interesting that you got asked this question because I usually get people telling me like, oh, going digital is actually going green. And there again, we don't have so many, so many studies, but there was a comparison between a performance taking place online using virtual reality, so like a two hour performance. And it was compared to a performance in a medium size theater in the city center. And the impact of the online conference was actually bigger than the impact of an actual event, even if people didn't necessarily use only public transport. So it's sometimes maybe it's a matter of deconstructing some ideas and some maybe misconceptions about how things are, but also to really understand where our footprint comes from. And maybe it's also important to go beyond just carbon. Obviously, climate change is a very urgent issue, but we have also all the other issues like the water footprint, the biodiversity loss and all these things that need to be addressed. So I can understand also that some people might say like maybe it's too much focus on this carbon thing and we have to think more globally and to see how people there again are affected differently where they are in the world. Yeah, and that's a very good point that we shouldn't just think about carbon carbon is the easiest one in sense that a lot of people now know what it is and are measuring things. I think, I mean, I think another aspect that might be worth considering is that I also looked at the at the numbers really quickly I googled them before the session. And of course, on a global level are major emissions, as far as the current calculation goes, and how correct they are, it's still is in transportation, for instance. But as we were saying that the digital is increasing so quickly that it's also important that we kind of, while we are developing the digital that we right away develop it right and not cause an enormous new problem that we'll have to deal with in five, 10, 50 years, because we have kind of been blinded by by the fact that, you know, we are only looking at travel. I think personally really when thinking about climate action it's important to think holistically and really try to make everything that you do greener. So that's maybe a little thought from me. So I would like to, since we're taking a little bit in the future. I would like to ask you a bit of an ideal question, an ideal scenario question I would like to start with. So, if you think like in five, 10 years from now, what what should we aim for in terms of digital sustainability and cultural mobility and cultural mobility. So what's your ideal scenario and maybe how do you hope that the capital of culture could contribute to that? Well, maybe I would like to change also our education system so that people in different stages of education from from the very beginning to universities get new kind of knowledge so that all the digital cultural offer could be also high quality. We all remember those first screenings of in the beginning of the pandemic when when everybody took the stuff into internet and it was not also high quality. And we have now plans to start new education for hybrid producers for cultural events. And of course we have to have to have those enterprises who are making those devices making the change together so that we don't have to buy new new computers and iPads and phones every second year. So that they could maybe be in use as long as possible and you could maybe have them reuse three cycles in a proper way when they are not working anymore. Of course we need help of researchers so that we are not thinking about, you know, a level of wishes and hopes but what we really could have hard facts about that what is what is greener and maybe you have just different kind of ideas of green things which are not really true at the end of the day. But the fact is that we the cultural professionals we can't make the big change alone. We need the whole society to rethink the system that what the digitality means in the future. I hear in what you say also and we talked about it yesterday a little bit, but that the concept of maybe steam collaboration which stands for science technology arts. I'm saying it's wrong engineering and maths. That's the right the right term. So that we need to work with the arts with other sectors with other expertise because this is a problem that is much bigger than us. And I know you actually had some some steam project. I guess this also connects to the skills question from the previous panel a little bit because it's also about getting steam skills perhaps learning to look at topics from different perspective and collaborating with people from different expertise. Yes, we have in Oulu some steam schools for children and we are going to have a new children's cultural center which will be made by the ideal ideologically of stream so that we are adding the reading to the traditional steam ideas. And we know that communication is key. So that I think that's a very good idea. When what's your scenario scenario. I totally agree with what Pia mentioned and about especially about the having more sustainable consumption choices. I think also we need to address that with the funders because I see a lot of funding opportunities now tackling either the digital shift or the green transition or equal opportunities. And I think everything is so interlinked that we really need to have funders propose funding schemes for that and to help also develop really alternatives to like if you're an artist now and you don't want to be on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. What's the alternative for this and it's like the system is really made on that and that you need to have this exposure so it would be really interesting to have something and maybe more also locally developed and more either European based or African based. Yeah, that's what I wish for it. Yeah, well, I mean the funding of course is is something that we could work together as a sector it's really big on a lot of our minds and I know their efforts now and trying to make us a cultural funding more sustainable. And that is also not easy. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that I mean you just came through a whole process of getting the capital of culture. And I mean in this you were selected I guess also partly for the green aspect. Do you have any any suggestions maybe for people. I think that maybe one of the reasons why Oulu won the competition was that the Oulu is seen as a possible platform for combining high tech, which is very big part of our, our enterprises in our region and also our university so that we put culture and high tech together and I think that maybe something which we can see already in 26 will be some new forms of culture something which is made in a total different way, not so that we have the analog way to make culture and then we put it into a digital form but there is maybe some new genres becoming into the cultural field. Do you have some examples in mind or is it just a hope? I think that something which has happened in the game industry. I think that the game industry could maybe be transformed in a more artistic mode so that it could be maybe considered as art in 26 like what has happened for example to comics which was just entertainment earlier now it's part of literature and art. Okay, thank you. And I would like to go back to the mobility of artists. And I would like to ask when if you have come across in your years of experience working with environmental sustainability and really good examples of how we could do a more greener type of mobility online or offline. I usually don't like to answer this question because I don't think there's like one, there's not one solution that might work and I have examples but it's like it's not probably not working for everyone or it's just one. But currently I'm working with a band which is doing improvised music and they used to tour a lot in Japan and some of them decided that they don't want to fly anymore it's their personal choice. But they still want to keep the connection with their with the musicians that they met in Japan. So they decided that they will ask the band in Japan to tour and to play their own piece. And they will tour in France or in Europe and play their piece also and this this exchange there's also this fair payment between them, but it's also this is happening because they could travel before and because they actually went on a flight before. So that's that's one thing that I actually like this project because it's very experimental also and we don't really know where where it's going. And if you, I mean, I think a lot of people that are connected today are thinking about maybe organizing themselves digital mobility or connected to other people organizing digital mobility. And so my question to you but also to Pia is do you have any because you say there's not one example that you can give that just applies to everybody and I think that's completely right. But at the same time, it is nice to have some form of guidance, some sort of things that it's good to keep in mind when you're trying to make your mobility and especially your digital mobility more sustainable. And I mean, I worked on on the shift project I said that before that looked at the cultural networks and we created some guidelines for cultural networks that could give them like a step to step approach or at least some guidance on what they can do to start becoming more environment is sustainable. And so do you have maybe some something that could be applicable to everybody and then maybe everybody can can form it in the way that works for them shape it in the way that works for them. Yes, we are actually currently working on the producing a guide for good, good practices for sustainable digital practices in the music industry. So we are digging into it it's taking a lot of time and a lot of research so. Yes, but I think one of the best practices that you can have is what you said before it's just to keep your computers and your phones, the longer you can that's already a very, very big. Yeah, big level to to change our practices and on on maybe because we always talk about artists mobility but on ourselves as cultural operators. Now I see more and more like programmers for instance that used to go every year to who next to South by Southwest, and now they rely on the network local network, and they have like one or two persons going there, but then they exchange and they go more locally to those fairs, and then they they exchange digitally. So that's also a good practice I think to try to change our habits and maybe not to go everywhere, all the time, although, of course it's needed but maybe not not always. Yeah, well that's interesting and it's interesting to figure out what type of digital connections will be efficient to that regard because you know you can ask your local network to participate somewhere and then maybe give you some input back but there's also ways of participating digitally and we're really in an experimental stage. We've seen it in in our work we've also experimented a lot in the past two years with digital conferences, which hybrid conferences, and it's really, you know, it's experimental and I feel like we should also raise the experimental aspect of it and I would like to say maybe, yeah, maybe one more question to Pia because another issue, and I wonder if, if the digital could help with that, maybe I'm going a little bit beyond the environmental sustainability but you know certain regions are also seen as more peripheral, and you say that your city is seen as one of the most northern cities of Finland and I wonder, you know, how the digital could maybe help and maybe not help in that sense to keep the connection going. I must say that in some ways the pandemic helped us during the bidding process because we didn't have to travel everywhere. We had meetings with all those 32 municipalities in our region and also dozens and dozens of partners around the Europe. If we would have travelled to meet them, everyone, we wouldn't have enough time to do that. So it is efficient and it's also a more sustainable way to make the collaboration, but if we are talking about culture and art, I think that it's still more sustainable that artists or a group of artists travel to the audience than the huge amounts of audience travel to the one spot where the artist is performing. That's interesting and I guess it depends on exactly what is being performed and who is travelling and I guess in some cases that must be true. And also we have one flagship called Peace Machine and we have been discussing that maybe we are not making an immersive piece of art which would be a huge amount of material, but instead we will make it in some kind of digital form so that it can be realised in different spaces around the Europe. And you don't have to have many cars carrying different kinds of devices and exhibitions. That's a really good example actually of a different kind of mobility. I think we have to round up and what I hear from our discussions is that there's a lot of positive opportunities in the digital mobility, but that we should also be very mindful about the way we develop it further and be mindful of the environment while we do so. I would like to thank you both very, very much for your contributions and I will give the word to the floor for further questions. Just a round of applause for everybody. Thank you so much. So my name is Stefan, I work for Czechostrada. I am a white Mediterranean man in his 40s, early 40s. I have a black hair, black beard with some white hairs and I have a mustard shirt. So let's play a game of pretend for a second. Let's pretend that I am a policymaker working for a national ministry and in a European country that I know a little bit about digital art and culture that I know a little bit about being like a conscious and eco-conscious and eco-responsibilities, but I don't know much about the connection between both of them. What would be your first recommendation, advice, suggestions to make, to make me change and act quickly? That's a very good question and as a advocacy officer, I would love to have the answer to that, so maybe one of you would like to respond? Stefan, I need to think about it. I don't have a straight answer now. Maybe I could recommend that you could take part in our hybridized festivals and maybe later on you could come and visit our city or other municipalities in our area when you have had some experiences in digital form. I was just talking yesterday with someone about the importance of really showing also the policymakers what it is that we're doing to have them understand it better. In that sense, when we have good experiments of digital mobility that's sustainable and it would be great to also invite some policymakers and have them be present and experience that themselves. But yeah, that's my little two cents. I don't know if there's any other questions. I would say that I think they should really consult the actors on the criteria that they might want to implement. There's a great example from Creative Carbon Scotland actually that started to implement the eco-conditionality of public funding, but before they actually really thought about what would exactly be the criteria. And actually, this was never implemented, but the actors managed to lower their carbon footprint by 50%. And now after some years of experimenting, they're going to implement the eco-conditionality of funding to reach the goals of carbon neutrality. So I think sometimes maybe policymakers tend to take those decisions a bit too quickly and not to address the right issues and not to consult on either environmental but also like social and territorial criteria that really need to be balanced. And that's my answer. Thank you. Hi, my name is Lisa. I work for Flanders Arts Institute. I'm a tall white blonde, early 40s cultural operator and I was actually going to answer your question, but it's in the same line as yours is that we noticed in Flanders at least for structural subsidies that you have now as an organization applying for five years structural funding to take the boxes. Let's say for having a diverse board implementing for practices and for a pay within the organization and I'm sure that within five years and I hope at least that we will also have to implement sustainability and green conduct within the whole functioning of your organization. So I hope that funders, policy makers will also ask us to respond to that and then we have to implement those let's say rules within our own organizations. That would be a good start for for for working together actually us as organizations and then together with the public funding policies. Thank you. Yeah, I have seen it happen a little bit at European level. So there's hope for that. The same time it's also important to keep in mind the resources necessary to green an organization so hopefully there will be maybe some extra funds to do that that would be a nice addition. Are there any other questions. I'm going to try and answer for your questions. Hi, I'm Matthew Covey. I am tall male. Of indeterminate age. I think that one of the interesting and important things about the work that's being done in the cultural sector is that this is a sector that cares about these topics far beyond the actual scope of our impact on the topic. What matters most about the work that's being done here isn't the actual carbon we're saving because compared with other industries it's minimal. But it's a laboratory for how to do that that can be modeled that can be modeled for other industries and it's also visible for other industries. So if you're a policy maker. I would want you to watch what's being done here, not because it's like, oh great, you solved it good. But it's this is being done here for the purpose of being an example for the rest for other industries. I think I'd want you to know to notice that. Thank you so much. I don't know if there's any other questions. I thought of a tip. I can give a tip. Go ahead, please. If you have a tip, go ahead. If you're, if you're part of the 77% of the people on YouTube are listening to music, because I am or used to be until I discovered that. Now, there's actually a really nice extension called audio only, and you install it and then it allows you to just have the sound. So if you just want to dig for some special music or you want to listen to a conference, but you don't need to base it and that allows you to lower by 50% the internet usage. And if you're a venue, please give Wi-Fi access if you can for free to your audience. That's also like five to 20% less impact than if you have your audience user 4G or 5G. So that's also very good practice and quite easy to implement when you have the means. And you said you're creating guidelines as well or guides somehow. And I would wonder when could we expect something that useful and where could we find it? We've been working on that for a year already, but since there are not so many studies and you really need to dig into and not to put on false information or something that would be counterproductive. So we are being super careful with that. So it might take maybe someone else will do it before us and it's quite possible. Well, make sure you inform us when it's free. And good luck with that. I'm just looking around. We're seeing if there's anyone else who wants to contribute. Yes. I have a question that is related to the topic of sustainability, but a little bit outside of the specific topic of mobility. And I guess it's related to this question of climate denialism because I think that Matthew, I mean, culture is also about kind of changing mindset and perspective and ways of being in the world. And we've also talked a little bit today how that is increasingly seeming to a lot of people intimately related to the way that politics plays out in our world. And I was wondering, I haven't heard anyone talk yet about how this in in, I don't know what the case is in Finland. I hope it's not like the place where I grew up, but climate denialism as a political force is something that I think that we have to contend with at large. Again, it's broader than the question of mobility, but it's still potentially a big force shaping the world at large and also shaping the cultural sector and potentially public funding and stuff like that. And I was wondering if any of you could could speak to that as something that you've encountered and what you're thinking about it. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm not totally sure if I understood the question in the right way, but I think that, for example, our flagship program, peace machine, which wants to create communication, better communication between people who are not agreeing in everything that we could live on the same globe without wars and violent conflicts. Now we know what is going on in Ukraine and many other places. War is always environmental catastrophe. We can still see the scarves of Second World War in the North Finland. It was in 1940s. So I think that if cultural professionals and artists are working to make people more conscious about the questions of peace and solving conflicts and trying to live together side by side, although you are not agreeing in everything, I think that that is also something which is really, really good for our environment and to the future of human mankind. So it's not only that we are calculating that how much emissions we are making, but also the positive impacts that art and culture can have in our future. But in that way, I'm I'm a really big idealistic. Yeah, thank you for your question. I think you're raising a very important point. I can only speak about my experience, but when so when I started in 2016, I was going around all the music conventions in Europe between my projects saying we should start to work on that. And I was getting a lot of reactions of people, mainly male, I would say that telling me like, oh, we don't care about that. This is boring. Or some of them even said like, not a problem. It doesn't exist. And now it doesn't happen to me anymore. And I don't think it is because it disappeared. But I think it's less acceptable for people to have this kind of speech in public or so I kind of going back, maybe I kind of preferred when people were actually telling this, this to me to my face so I could address it. I couldn't change their mind or whatever, but at least there was a dialogue or conversation, which is not happening anymore. I wonder how we can influence on that. And of course, artists can have this power and we were talking yesterday, but Billie Eilish was now doing those big tours in the UK and really having the like awareness raising and really but is it like people that are actually climate denials that go there? I'm not so sure. So I don't really have an answer, but it's still a very big question. Thank you. Go ahead. Now there you go. Yeah. So my name is gear. I'm 180 light skinned one here. I work here at Nordic culture point on the grand schemes. I just wanted to do some Norwegian PR. In Norway, we have 13 ministries within the government like five years ago. And four of them made these green road maps. And the fifth ministry that did it was Norwegian cultural ministry. So for arts, it's not finished yet. So I encourage all of you to contact Norway, contact the different ministries to to listen to them and how they develop those green maps for all the sectors of all the ministries. It's only in Norwegian on all the ministry's pages. There is English pages on the ministries, the different ones. But I encourage you to to bug us and and contact them for for guidance on how they started to implement it through out the government and all the ministry. So I think it's it's a good way because they quickly before pandemic we all look to Scotland for guidance on how to implement within the arts. And that's all good. But I think we, we, there's still quite a role to go to to to match all the new things we experienced during the mix. So, so I think, yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. I think this is really relevant to the whole question about how do we communicate to our policymakers and are there good examples out there so it would be definitely interesting to look into that. Yeah, who else I see a hand raised over here. And also it's a good point that you make about resources that are really UK based. It's a question that I've seen often and there are you or Europe or any other continent based resources out there but we do tend to look at the UK so it's really good to share also other examples. Yeah. Go ahead, please. I'm afraid it's another UK UK voice on this. It's good to follow you. To many Christopher, I am a female I am in my 50s I am white, have more messier hair than I'd like to have and I'm wearing a great the gray shirt. We've been part of a project in the UK, working with Julius bicycle, which does develop tools for measuring our carbon footprint. It's not it's not a Julius bicycle project this. And there were three organizations that came together to look at how we might measure our digital carbon footprint as a research project working with the University of South Bank South London somewhere. And that was a really interesting kind of process and they came to do a presentation for us in Cyprus and they were very, very amusing. Do they talked about it very well. They talked about it also in terms of understanding what live streaming is compared to boiling a kettle or doing something else so the language was super. So they've developed a little tool which is worth having a look at I'm sure it's not fully developed yet but interesting to understand what an event like this would do for example so you can put in the amount of hours and times. It's called the network conditions so maybe I can share it through on the move and people can have a look at that. Just quickly on Billie Eilish is a complete aside I was looking for animal free testing at the perfume department of the airport. And she does a perfect animal free so just to. Thank you. Thank you so much. And getting the right tools to calculate and to really have the data we go back at the end we go back to the data that we started with because having that the tools to know what the footprint what the impact is is so important to make your decisions so that's a key step for all of us to get those tools and those tools are not available yet to get them available. I don't know if either one of you would like to respond. I was still thinking about what you said actually and I actually had a question for you because I don't have any examples in mind but do you think do you have maybe your ministry of environment if it's like this that actually considers also including culture in the in the plans for climate change and climate crisis. Is that a discussion that's happening also. I'm not probably not the right person to ask but but but there were some questions before pandemic about how can the different ministry that actually are already implemented and work more together. But I would say the pandemic kind of stopped a lot of those processes and and the green map for art is not done yet. So it's it's it's two years since it was supposed to be done so. But of course I mean nor I'm from Norway myself of course but now I live here in Finland so but Norway is a tiny tiny country so I would say yes they do you know and they look at each other and actually all the green map are on the same page of the current government so you know it's yeah. But I just want to say I think. I don't think the Norwegian government see that their way that what they have have done and what they're doing is relevant for other countries. And that's a little bit sad because they're actually doing great work and working much more closely together between the ministries and between the sectors. Then we ourselves think so it's like I always call this like the little brother syndrome and they have it here in Finland and we definitely have it in Norway as well. So that's why I said that's why I use this word bug them and contact them and if you're a policymaker in another country or have that type of power. If you contact one of the ministries they will reply because they will go oh yeah we have to reply them of course you know. So use that power. All right. Thank you. Yeah. You'd like to. Yes. Of course our city of Oulu has its own environmental program which was in our city council quite lately. So there are many practical things which are happening already in our city and plans that how can we make everything garb and free in the future. There are some issues which are bigger in the north. For example warming up the houses because we can live without warming maybe four months in a year and in other months we need some kind of warming up system. And that is maybe the biggest emission source in our region. I think that in our environmental program there are not specific things for the cultural sector. But of course everything which has to do with the event venues and logistics public transportation and everything it has also important for cultural events. For example we have a really really good recycling system in our city only less than one percent of all the waste go to the old fashioned waste yard and everything else is recycled in one way or then other. For example we make gas from organic waste so that there is one bus line which is using that gas which is coming from from the organic waste and I think that that's really great. Wonderful. Yeah I think this is a good point and you know we have been talking a lot about policy actually in this Q&A. And it's interesting to look at the different levels of policy as well because you know you have the big international global policymakers. Then if I look at where we are now the EU the national policy institutions but you do have the cities and the cities have I found out recently that a lot of cities are very interesting climate initiatives. And as the cultural sector it's really interesting to see if we can link to that and how we can do that and try to include by maybe lobbying on a much smaller scale culture into very local policies and action plans of for instance municipalities. I mean a lot of cultural organizations are strongly rooted in the city that they are based in and can make a difference also there. So there's a lot of different angles towards it and I think I have to wrap up now. So I'd like to thank all of you and especially our two panelists and on the move for giving us this stage. Thank you all.