 Gweldwm hyn yn y tofyddi swyddfa, I'm going Mike and Ian in the studio Just thought we'd have a little chat about the shape of a squad Everton have just done their retain and released list We've been waiting contrast to see what this can take It's quiet, it's a slow news week What's the water shed for shorts btw? 8 o clock yn y môn yn ymwneud mennw It's not to suffer it Rwy'n deall bod yn dwylai'r ddelch chi'm yn siarad. Rwy'n teulu'r ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch chi'n ddelch. Rwy'n deall bod yn ddim yng ngherniad, yn llyfrnfflwyr iawn, sydd y rhywbeth ar ddefnyddio'r ddod. A phrofiad o ein gweithiwaith o'r cyflwyman. Fy nid o'r mersodyniadau'r ddiolchion. Ri'n deall yr oedd iawn. Yn gyfrifio'r teulu a'r amser, ond Dave is being offered a new deal. Okay, I don't know whether it's a massive shock. I think if everyone would have heard that in March, there wouldn't have been any kind of thing. Andy Lonergan has got people scratching their head as well, but the season's finished and now we start to look at how we can, you know, we're safe so that's good, how we can start to shape this squad up in the head of the new season. It doesn't seem like we're going to have a massive budget unless we sell someone and anything could happen, couldn't it? So we have to look at how we can start to shape the squad. We're going to have a chat about how that looks for us today, but just firstly, what are your thoughts on the Tom Davis and Andy Lonergan being offered a new deal? I think the potential shock has probably just come by the fact that because they had them previously being offered one, I think we were just expecting them to go. If you look at it sensibly potentially, or the offered doesn't necessarily mean they're getting the same wages, the same terms. Even if they'll take it? Even if they'll take it and potentially Tom Davis probably won't, I would suspect, but we spoke on one of the shows earlier. If Tom Davis has been offered a 12-month contract on half the money with an option of another year or something along those lines, then he's a useful squat player to having it around. It saves spending money on someone else, saves taking a gamble on someone else, and it might be why we identify another target that we can bring in at 12 months time or so on and so forth. We don't know the bigger picture from that side of it. I think the shock is that just an initial of which is presumed he was gone. Like I say, realistic, he probably will be still. The Lonergan one, anyone who's bothered by that, Jesus, you need to get outlaw because fundamentally, your third choice goalkeeper is a coach. For a lot of clubs, by the way, not all, but for a lot of clubs, your third choice goalkeepers are coaching, and that'll be someone who can, he could be doing training with Pickford and he can identify things that Pickford could be doing better and stuff. It's not necessarily that he's got to be ready to be thrown into a game. I mean, in games at Begavitch play last season by necessity, one was it? So, our third choice goalkeepers are highly unlikely to be needed. So, from that perspective, from the goalkeeper, the continuity for him, for Pickford, I would say Pickford's probably got a big say in that as well. Obviously Begavitch is gone, so is he. Yeah, because he wants to play. What I'm saying, it's all about Begavitch. I just mean, like Mike's saying here with Pickford, when you want things to stay the same, if you want to keep your form, keep it with necessity, and then all of a sudden two of you training partners are gone. And that dynamic could change again, so maybe Pickford that I've had. The third choice goalkeeper gets off of the contract, he accepts it, and then in the back end of July, early August, we sell Pickford. Well, obviously, I mean, no, the point I'm making is, you're damned if you're doing, you're damned if you don't. Those things, those decisions are made on here and now, aren't they? That's what I mean. Tom Davis won, I think, is quite straightforward. Well, go on, what's your opinion? Are we going to sign a midfield play in the next three weeks? Maybe not in the next three weeks, but... Right. So, today's the day they chose to do the release, I don't know whether that's dictated or whether that's just when we chose to do it. So, if Tom Davis isn't on the release, he has to be something else, and there's something else as we've offered him a deal. And I think you guys talked on the live about, well, I said it was PR, right? You've got to say something. Imagine if they'd done the release list, and the players offered extended contracts, you know, often academy ones, and there's no sign of Tom Davis at all. Because he's not on the retain list, does he? That's what I mean, yeah? Well, have they done a retain list? Yeah. Oh, okay. I mean, you can say all the players you know, the ones who get a let-and-go, then what's left of the retain, but you know what I mean. But it allows him to say, well, I've got a beard in the hand. So, if he's talked to Celtic or whoever it might be, you know, I've got a three-year deal here from a one-year deal, whatever it is, 25 grand a week, you've got to match that and I'll come to you, or you've got to beat that and I'll come to you, or whatever. So, that's that. But the also is the bit about, I mean, you said it quite well, I think, you know, if he's one of your squad players and you do need numbers, then it's ultimately going to be more cost-effective keeping a guy you've already got. Particularly if you can offer him less money than he was in previously. No integration issues, no settling in, none of that rubbish, no moving houses, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But also, as you said on the live, if once you get into the transfer window, you find plays you really want and then you can co-ordinate that with him going. Yeah, that sort of thing happens. And I don't know when this, you know, uni-Velton bit runs out, but presumably, do we get some money anyway? Not now, because it's 25 the end of the month. It's 25 is the world tomorrow. 24 is the cut-off. Okay, well, there you go. So, you run the risk in quotes and he'll say yes, if you don't really want him, but clearly the manager must think he's a good guy to have around the squad. I think obviously there is that. He knows, if it's only been here since he was 11, I think he's been at the football club. So he's part of the fabric almost. A lot of people don't think he's good enough. I mean, he isn't. He's just a squat. He's not one of your first names on the team list. He's got the attributes for the Premier League. You know, you can argue that he's got a lot of different managers who've played him. You know, Calamant, he's got a lot of draffa beneath. He's both won the European Cups and both played him, picked him, when there was others available and different things. So he's obviously not as bad as some people lead you to believe. There's an element to get a protect in the asset if you like it. Well, have you done? And then someone comes in and offers a couple of million in six months for him at Christmas or whatever. You've got some money there. So there is that. And like you said, it's also for him as well. He's got a start point for negotiations. It might be a one-year contract, by the way. Of course. It could be anything. Listen, he might be offered like Mike said. He might be on and making it up £40,000 a week now. And they've offered him £20,000 or £25,000. Mike said he'll give you £25,000. He's got to play elements, all that sort of stuff. You know, and he goes. He had a right to stay for two years on £25,000 a week. He can have it and go, OK. We've still got a player who can cover two or three positions. He's on less. We've made a little saving with his wages. All of us, you know, £15,000 a week. If it was that, they'd all add up. It adds up to us. You made a point earlier on, one or both of you, on the live thing when you talk about Cody, for example. I think it was you on it saying it's not dead, necessarily. Cody. Part of a negotiation. You know, that deal doesn't work for me. I'm walking away. And if wolves in particular get a better deal from someone else and Cody's prepared to go there, then they get their better deal. If Cody really wants to be at Everton, and we've had the little whisper in his ear before he's gone lad, we just need to let the clock tick over a little bit. We don't want to give these guys what they thought. We want to give them less and, you know, just, you know. And that's where players have the final say, isn't it? Of course. You know, and the same applies here with someone like Tom Davis. Right. You've got to think about where are you going to be in your squad. And would you regret letting a guy go? Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. But they might have done that deal with his agents ages ago. But Tom and his agent now know there isn't a big long queue of clubs coming for you, Tom. Right. Do you want to go and play for Celtic on 15 grand a week? Or do you want to stay at Everton on 25? And I think you would, and I certainly would say from a sporting perspective, go to Celtic because in two years... Or Braint is it the ones you have? Whoever. Whoever. Right. Scotland. Right. If you go to that place up because you will look a lot better up there than you look down here, you're back around that loop again. There were Premier League clubs. Oh, Tom Davis. He might be alright, yeah. And Everton was so dysfunctional while he was there before. Young player, so many managers. It was always there and now we can see it, you know. So, yeah, let's see. Let's see what happens. A couple of plays going on. Andross Tansen, any real surprise there? Obviously, he did well for Everton last season. Seven goals and got a terrible injury. And the hope was he'd be back before the well cut, certainly after the well cut. And you know what, when you look at it, if he'd have been fit, he might have been a useful player to have, certainly for the second half. The goals. He got minutes, wouldn't he? The goals and all that. We know he is trying again. He hasn't still got a duty of care to him, so he will remain a Finch fan during his rehab. Yeah. And he's real, there's no real shock there though. I would say that's the type of decision you want to see. How old is he now? He's going to be 32 at least. One or 33. Because depending where his head is, for all we know, he's decided once I've retired, really. Maybe. Money always talks, doesn't it? I think for him, he's still young. I think he's still got the fire in his belly to be well. I think he'll get picked up, no problem. No, I think he will. I think, no, it's not a surprise and I think it's the right decision. He's been on for a year. Yeah. Longer than a year, isn't he? Yeah. And obviously, pace was always his major asset. You could see him slowing down even in the previous year when he was playing. So, I think the second half of his fair season with us, he really started to tail off and then he's obviously been injured for over a year. So, now, right decision, move him on, left footed winger. You've got McNeill now in a younger model bearing to move on with now. If you add an objective approach as a director of football with the manager to determine which type of players you need in the squad, the fact that you might be restricted in the transfer market, it could very well distill down to Townsend or Davis. Keep, let go. Which one would you let go? The older one? Yeah. It's been out injured for 18 months or whatever it is, 12 months or something. So, it could be just something as simple as that. Letting him go, we have to keep this guy or try at least look like we're trying to keep it. Yeah, and the other thing is well, of course, with Andrew Sarnsend and we wish him well, hopefully. We'll come back and do well for whatever, however long he plays. That is wages, whatever they were, and I'm not saying they were huge wages. But his wages are bigger than Tom Davis anyway. Absolutely. But also the savings on his wages can go to a new player, can't it? Absolutely. You've got a player going, we'll be cookie times then because he's in the building. And if we get him back again, we'll raise him. Or you go. What could we do with a couple of million pounds a year? See that? That fell us free over there in 25. Let's see. It's making them objective decisions, isn't it? And I think those type of decisions, we've sometimes, we cling on to play us a little bit too long. Let's, you know, we need to move on. No, no. I mean, one player who's gone, and seems to be gone through his own decision, is Begavit, Anthony Begavit, who has been a good solid number two forever for the last couple of years. He was offered a contract to come out and he released, he let it be known he was leaving, didn't he last week or whatever. And people thought, oh, I've just let him go. I must be getting someone else. But I think he's wanted them. He wants to play football. That's probably out of all of them. That's probably the biggest surprise to me. I thought he just appeared to be happy. Happy being a number two. Because obviously you get to say late. He had a long time to say it though, and he might think I've got a lot more go with it. Yeah, good on him. But I just, when he came, he must have known he was going to be number two. But obviously he's probably had confidence that he could house Pickford, which is a good attitude to have. So, yeah, but that did surprise me. I thought he would have, I thought the goalkeeper set would just stay the same. So, but what is interesting is, like you say, the fact that we have offered him one because again, he's done it live. Dice has always sort of been marked having a younger number two coming in. So obviously he was content to not have that situation. So whether he changes his tack now and goes for a younger number two, because it's freed up that opportunity or whether he looks for an experienced number two. But it's like, it's that thing, isn't it? You know, you've mentioned it, I think, John. I might have said it as well before, it's that. You've got that, that set, and Dice might have thought, well, this summer we need stability as much as we can to go for it and maybe beg a ritual to be imparted. Obviously Javidging is back at the club and he's making noises about wanting to kick on now or ever. And he started the season quite well as he can be, but then lost his place after Christmas and seemed to just fall away and ended up being injured at the end and was being back at Finch Ffarn, getting some rehab. So he obviously played under Carlo a couple of games out of necessity when we had injuries, Robin Olsham's injury, Pickford was injured and done all right. He did. OK, I'm not saying, and by any set I'm not saying he's good enough to post you on Pickford and just saying he is a young goalkeeper and he would imagine that it's now or never he's to stay at Everton, show something. So on Dyche, might have a look at him and go, not for me yet. Or he might go, you know what? He'll do what we've got Billy Crell in there as well, of course, and Harry Tyre, who's spent the season on the Chester. So there's a, there are a few keepers in the building, but it will be interesting to see whether Dyche has got someone else here. I always thought it'd be Tom Heaton, to be honest. Yeah. I always thought he'd come in for him. He's had the night at Disney, but... Yeah, he was. He was at United. Yeah, I think he might have been released in the season. He's coming, but he might not be. He might have just got with him. There's also an indirect message there to any third parties that look at our goalkeeping situation and if you want to try to extract Jordan Pickford, it's going to cost you a really big number because it would give us a problem, particularly if someone turned up quite late, wouldn't it? Yeah, of course, yeah. Isaac Price. So Dyhae can consider his wage demands now, can he? Absolutely. Isaac Price has moved on, which we knew there's no real surprise in that when we've known that for a while. He's a... That's probably... That's got a lot of people concerned. Not today, but over the last six, eight weeks when it become apparent he wasn't going to sign a new deal in terms of how we're developing as a football club and what the plan is. This has got to stop, hasn't it? And what I mean by that is I don't know whether Isaac Price is good enough to get an evidence midfield and play every week in the Premier League or not. He's 19 years of age. He looks like a talented kid. We'll see where his career goes now, but I'm talking about that pathway into the team because it's no use having these players who look like they might make it and yet we're never prepared to give them anything. We sort here, he's small. Go out the door and OK, his career hasn't gone the way. He's hoped at the moment. He's in Scotland at the minute on loan. He'll go back to Southampton, might get a go on a championship. To perceive perception as well. Exactly, and we have to think the way we are financially as well. We've got to get back to being able to convince these young kids that coming to Everton, you're good enough, you're going to get an opportunity in our team. You're a bit worried about that or not? Worried as in... The message, not Isaac Price as in all we've lost in the field. Two parties, yes, is the obvious answer. The second part is obviously the changes. If you say no, then you've just covered your bases, yes and no and that's it, stop with me. That will be a kint too. If you finish outside the bottom three, I don't think we'll go down. You were absolutely right. I was right. The whole club structure. I don't want to go too in because we've done it loads of times. The whole club structure needs ripping up, changing, what not. So you would like to think and we've all got the hope that that's what's in the process of happening this summer where a little bit of a plan going on in terms of what the football is going to do, how they're going to put in their perceived plans and routes into the first team and everything that goes along with that. So if the hierarchy is going to change and what not, then I'm not necessarily worried because they've identified the problem and they'll start actioning it. If nothing's changing in that direction it is a major problem because fundamentally you just let an asset walk out the door for next to nothing or free. I think we'll get a development fee for them so we might end up with about 400g. Yeah, yeah. So those type of ones where you want them realistically to at least go out and load to a championship player where it becomes a £3-4m player and ten times the value. I'm not necessarily concerned right now but let's see how this develops over the next 12 months. John, just on Isaac Christ just the situation not necessarily the player but this was a fella that was a kid that Frank Lampard gave his debut to full debut to Arsenal last season last game of the season when we were safe trained with the first team at times trained all season with the first team played in pre-season mini-shelter when we were there we played played the Blackpool and Kiev he was involved and things like that and they looked us though he was going to get an opportunity to be part of that squad given especially as well we didn't have tons of money. Then we went and got our own honour and James Garner we were two cents in the real place so we might have been a bit rude there we might have gone and gone, what's happening here but just on that from two perspectives do you think do you think Everton should have made the decision early last pre-season and gone, we want you to sign a new deal because we think you're good enough to play in our first team but also what we're doing is we're sending you out on loan because we think you're going to develop a way from our football I don't know for a fact whether this happened or didn't happen by the way I'm just looking at it as a fan of my perception of it because it almost seemed like he was kept on a bit of a leash I know that this happened with Stanley Mills things were promising that hasn't happened and he may become a problem in the future if he isn't given the opportunity but just wondering your perspective do you think that should have happened really? Opportunity is an interesting word isn't it because for two seasons now the objective of this football club has been to stay in this division not to develop players Okay so therefore should he not have gone on loaner? Exactly right right so when do you think that's rhetorical because you may or may not for the fun of debate please come up with something when do you think we offered him a new contract which he's declined and has now decided to go to another club? I think probably around I don't know this but maybe around September October so we've had a lot of time to mull over it Exactly right so for me which is the answer to your question why is rhetorical again you don't need to answer this one why did we start them in the last game of the season because we could because it didn't matter but what should have been attached to that would be if the coaching staff or the academy people think this is a guy we need to keep then I sit down with him and his agents and I say mate you are the future we want to offer you new terms Just give you the debut they're going to be structured these terms so that as you progress you'll get more and more money you'll have more standards and by the way you're going to make your first team debut in the Premier League at the next game so bang and actually Frank giving him his debut was because we've already had the contractual conversations and it's like a sweetener like evidence and all that stuff and then we're going to sit down with you in the summer and decide what's the best way we think we want to place you at a top 10 championship club where you can play every game run the goddamn show and then come back here the year after and if you tell the story correctly if the guy's been with Evan for quite a while and this is all part of his natural progression blah blah blah I'd remind him things like the average age of a debut in the Premier League is 21 you're only bloody 18 or 19 so you're way ahead we're all going to buy players in the same position as you but you will learn from them and then if you do the Onana one after the guy signed on it on it on the dotted line which probably wouldn't have done but you explain this is a guy whereby to sell mate you're a guy we're paying to stick around so that when he's gone you step it right and all the good selling of basically relationship management think account management type behaviour I've no idea who does that really no idea and Evan might have done it but you would like to think so right but the argument would be and this might punchline for this waffle is if we really wanted him to stay he'd be staying because sorry that's not just the words that is we clearly didn't do enough of a job to convince him and I would say if we really wanted him we should have convinced him and there's only two reasons why one is there's a subconscious yeah we'd like to but and the other one is we're just not doing it well enough now the example of Tom Davis is a real graphic example we don't really want him to stay as a club because he would have signed a new contract not be offered one and you're right on the desk over there to say I think it's you guys but don't matter if he's on 25 grand a week and you offer him 15 that's like having a painter decorated to do your house and they quote your 5 grand they don't want to say no but they'll price themselves out so at 10 or 15 grand a week Tom Davis is an absolute steal at 30 or 40 no he's not if they had that sort of thing with Mr Price of his expectation or his agent's expectation like small their expectations were way above our valuation of course he goes and anyone who's at that age like small was demanding first team guarantees are stuck I think as well what you've got to look at is we're invested obviously in here about the ones that happen at Everton what happens everywhere by the way and the reason happens more and more is because these players do have agents and those agents they're money off moves a lot more than they do off contract renewals and realistically if you start seeing and they've got sort of more and more evidence of it like a Jude Bellingham or Jaden Sancho going abroad really graphic examples of players or not let go that was the thing so like Jaden Sancho man said he wanted to keep them off of them a contract didn't want to stay wanted to play sold that pathway and that pathway has obviously proved to be better for them certainly financially might not have been career wise you'd never know so those players if you're Isaac Price for instance and you're sat there out of contract Everton have put these provisions in place where you go out and on loan and so on and so forth realistic all the cards are sat with you now and you can go well effectively my loan is to now go is he going gankers here is he going? so he's going over to Belgium that's somewhere that we potentially would have loaned them to so he's over there now on his own terms with his own destiny and his own hands he's probably thinking I'll do a year two years well here I'll be moving back to the Premier League anyway but I'll be coming back to the Premier League so he's going to hand the cards better signing on fees and effectively he's putting all his own faith which is quite refreshing in a way in his own ability so those things will always happen and I think John's point is very poignant and that's fundamentally our biggest problem is we just haven't been in a position to have free games to put these players in to give them opportunities because we're fighting to the last last games of the seasons for the last two years but it's how do we stop it that's my point so stopping it instantly the first thing you need to do is again what we discussed previously is getting up the table so that's the first thing you need to do because we will not be able to stop it if we're constantly scrambling around scrambling around Southampton took the objective decision to go youth and just put it on its custom eventually yeah eventually exactly I'll show them that they did make a conscious decision and what I'm saying is is when they didn't make that conscious decision to go youth they retained their Premier League status the second they decided to just go youth formalise it if you like then they've dropped down and they may come back in a stronger position but right now the best way of being able to stop those paths because we've always given those opportunities and also let's have it right if they're good enough Anthony Gordon still forced his way into the team with attributes that the squad needed so they're not completely not there but certain positions certainly defensively and there would be a deeper on the pitch no listen both both may be a very good point I just look at it and think we've got obviously the Smith Samuel Samuel I can't get it in is he Samuel Smith he's 5 years old he's only 16 about to be 17 left back a lot of clubs are looking at him but they're trying to get him away we've got Francis Ron Caronco we took them sundal and don't forget we gave them the hell each another highly dated one and yet we went to Wolves with no forward on the bench really and we had Bournemouth with no forward on the bench and he went down to Brighton and the kids sapped we had two goalie subs but a young striker he could have learnt a lot by just having the subs here just those kind of plays I don't want us to get into where they are and you're right one thing I've always said if you're good enough you will play when he was in our first team at 16 we wanted to play him at 14 he was that good so if you're exceptional you'll get him but I just hope we create that pathway because part of where we are and I think where we're heading would Evan Ferguson be in Evan's first team if he was in our 21s it would be the chance to play the kid I think we would have the striking situation when we won't play the million pound at 16 would he be in our first team at 18 I don't know I'd say with those type of players but when you're saying if the talent how you are up the pitch you can gamble with younger players as you retrieve back you ain't playing the 16 or left I get it you've got to be you've got to be there's a point here which you've drifted across in a way because what you want from a footballing perspective which is all under Thelwell is a clear understanding of what you do in certain scenarios the manager didn't get the email because if he's put multiple goalkeepers on the bench and even then he got bored with that we just won't have a full complement how do you not have a full complement of substitutions unless you're trying to send the message you could put a bleeding 12-year-old on the bench because you know you're never going to play him but as you just said they get the pre-match build up they get what it's like, they go through mix zones they mingle with the first player team they're all part of the things to me anyway that keeps the price here I'm close work harder be more consistent moderate your expectations there are guys in front of you but pick them off one at a time I know Uncle Anku was never coming on at Wolfe's he was sat behind the bench and we had two goalkeepers crazy so really what you were the gom was Andy Lonergan, I don't care if he's a senior or not he's just right he's shit behind I know he's going to sit next to a fellow squad player in the Premier League game so for me, that never makes sense to me I'm warming up because it's all part of the game even when you're looking to potentially sell them or move them on or loan them out it's a tick box isn't it he's been on the bench and he remember it when he knew who he was in he was saying he had three players on the bench at Davy and he got the thing in the day he was holding it because it did get the main ladder he had only kids he had them warming up he can't bring them on he had them then kids never ever coming on they got that experience but you did the sound bites was it yesterday I say sometimes you have to say no but make it sound like yes same applies on this isn't it Sean Deitch all the managers they're not stupid people you don't get to where they are without knowing the way the world is shaped and if the director of football even the commercial director says I could really do what Isaac Price being on the bench we're in the last froze with his agents they're looking for evidence we've got nine for crying out loud can he be one of them and if the manager goes no he won't need to fear with me then that tells you a bit about the manager it's got to be about big picture isn't it you can only bring five on so I get it I get it if you've got nine especially when we don't bring them you're on nine faith teams we're all on the bench on you take one of us off you're being sold to put this kid on the bench when you've got two keepers anyway that's a totally different story I have a real story whoever the academy guy is trying to control the pathway for certain players could almost have a relationship where he knows that the manager knows that a certain games in the season when the ninth place is going to his pick he picks it Manchester United have basically done this at the Premier League start that they've had a youth team player on the bench for someone who's come through for every single game so that should be a club it should be a club that makes sense to write that stuff which is how we know and a mum and a dad who are deciding should my lad go to Manchester apart from being bigger and all that let's go there because they always look after their kids on the bench all of that anyway that's a different thing in terms of shaping the squad let's play it like we've got full rule over it not necessarily like a keep sell thing but if you're going through obviously you'd talk about Jordan Pick but we're on to the defence and obviously now Everton have got Conor Codd he's gone that's the end of it I think if you're him in three weeks he's got less than a year left on his deal at Wolves and I think if you're Wolves then you're looking and going that window's going to tick exactly I'm not sure whether I'm going to play him and then all of a sudden it might be a case of actually just go back to Everton they don't want them and they've got other targets that they're going off anyway he's gone we know that we've got Michael Keane and Mason Holgate Ben Goffrey James Tarkowski we've also got Vee Shwell she has been on the bench quite a lot there's one guaranteed start and there's Tarkowski he's the only one who you would say plays I personally would make the partner they'd be yours to lose the shape basically he's still left with three centre back there and now Michael Keane or Mason Holgate I imagine both of them won't go out the door it's one of them to would go so one of them may possibly Ben Goffrey won't go cos I think she'll want to have another look at him and midfield I think you're right I think you've said what is he cos he just hasn't been able to put any flag down and go I play 35 games a season if he has another couple of injuries early doors then maybe we have to go but right now I still think he's the one you can get the most cos he's the one with the lightning page in the back four I know he throws the end of the season didn't quite show it but I believe he will I think things have gone on I think he'll be stronger in pre-season five days a week training makes a huge difference all of that makes a huge difference so Mason Holgate, Michael Keane for you if you were keeping on one of those a lot of people will go get rid of both you can only get rid of people if people bid for these plays or coming for them so if you had to keep one of the two is this what I would or what I think no no what you do because we're in it I would out the two I would keep Mason Holgate predominantly because he can do defensive midfield role can he we played them in there and Sean Dice played them in there as well played right back play centre back and he even played the left back for the car crest that it was and obviously from an age perspective and I'm presuming from a wage perspective he'll be a lot less than what I imagine substantially less what's Keane? If we're in the room doing this cos you say keep Holgate and there's only three of us right as soon as I say Holgate we're keeping him and then we move on to the next one is Holgate the one you keep up that's absolutely right is it unanimous or not? is it unanimous? between those two I think yeah definitely in an ideal world would you move both of them on just because Mason Holgate's 27 this year he's another one for me he nearly should be looking to move to play in an ideal world they're just both not good enough are they just not good enough simple as that when you wouldn't say they're our starting centre back would you so in that case nobody either so you wouldn't look and go there's a chance they're our best partnership you just wouldn't would you so in that respect for the team to evolve and move forward there's temperaments as well preparedness to be the plus one Michael Keane as well he's on a third or wedge he's on a contract as a first team player as a starter he's just not a mentality and he's been involved in a lot of everything we've done wrong temperament wise exactly obviously mistakes these sorts of individual mistakes and they'll always happen in football but they're the type of players you want to really eradicate out the team because your manager can set up a team put everything out and as soon as an individual just does something stupid those tactics and everything the window and he's done that would you be looking for another centre back then yeah so in an ideal world if you can find the buyers whole gate would be gone for me Michael Keane would be gone for me would be very very last chance saloon but to be honest I'd probably look to shift my book last chance saloon no well actually what you said so in an ideal it'd be gone as well but last chance saloon from that perspective then if I'm being honest I'd be back and I would have Cody, Tarkovsky, Branthwaith and Godfrey and then you've got Rich Welsh what would you do with Welsh alone championship if you could yeah I think he'd probably just how many centre backs do you think you need to go in I'd have four because I think you can also plug it you know change the old game will be in the squad he's been offered a new deal Michael Keane will play left centre so you can plug that I think we don't need seven or eight which is what I've carried this season six seven whatever it was we don't need that then he shall fall left back is obviously we've got one we've got one we didn't even have that White McNeill had to go and play there because Michael got injured and obviously knew even when I agree with you and went and like we just talked about young Samuels, Smith Smith Samuels he's only 60 soon to be 17 so therefore do you go I'm putting all my faith in you because you're only you know you're young but you're just going to be the back or do we do you think you're on day to be looking to get another one in you push Michael Enco I don't know about better that's a different question then I think it's imperative I just think with the squad when you look what would you do because we have got one left back it's imperative to me I think you need a left back a new becomes your starter I don't think Michael Enco or it's good enough to push Michael Enco because it improves for me with the days Aaron Martin Caracol Aaron who I've mentioned before and other people have mentioned as well who's had a contract when you were saying he's a lot of an attacking fullback and a great balance would be having a left back who's very attacking having the playoff to having Michael Enco was a lot more defensive minded and can do a job and also play left centre back so he gives you that a lot of options in your squad so for me a left back is absolutely imperative Do you know Emily might want like Mason Holgate swapping for Luca Deane a little swap just getting back now I think a left back I personally think we need a left back but also just with the young lad as well I don't want a 16-17 old who's just sat on the bench he's got to develop he needs to go out and play so albeit again for ever he's in the 21s now because he's almost missed the 18s I mean he's played for Leighton Baines but he's out they've almost gone to go for that he obviously starts the season in the 21s if he's still turning it up by Christmas he should be looking to get him into a club like how may fit him in loans cos he's still only be 17 to find a team who will play a 17-year-old in defence though it can be tricky don't forget you may well learn more just training but it's just having someone to go get out play you know dunk, a forest green might go half-way through the season I wouldn't issue it left back here get out play the kid dunking won't be happy to to have younger players in as well and of course editing is the 21s play against forest green so it's an opportunity for a few of them to go like that isn't it what's your take on Michael Ingle would you look to one of the things Michael Ingle is a good solid left back he's a defensive would you presume we've got limited funds would you want to allocate some of that to a free stream left back a start on left back I'll tell you why right because for me the funds have to start in attacking areas you have to Michael Ingle to me when I is in a huge issue don't get me wrong he's not what we've had he's full of average left backs I think the problem with Michael Ingle and this is on him and this is on Dycheon and Wown and Steve Stone to improve he's not very good going forward and therefore they should hammer that home to him but if you put a decent strike in the middle and said that to you get it out of your feet and just put it in that zone every single time he may well end up with three or four he's a decent athlete he's decent that's what I'm saying but being if they just tell him to make the runs but you wear the Frank Lampard saying I've screamed at him to run no that's what I'm saying well that's where we're going with the debate isn't it you're talking quite rightly about development but if you've already got a starting left back who quote I'm screaming at him but he's not doing it then is that because he's comfortable I'm going to keep getting play because there isn't anyone so you've got to find somebody to put him under pressure probably more he's worried about the other way maybe but he does his job and someone else has to do their job part of the challenge therefore is if there's a perception that the manager favors let's say experience over talent sounds horrible way to say but you know what I mean if you're good enough you're old enough but if he throws a few curveballs in that says you know what I will drop a 17 year old back in because you're just not bloody doing it everyone needs to be pushed don't you of course they do I was making a language quite young this thing 24 I think 25 he's been here 18 months he's 22 when we got him so maybe he's 24 so he's still being grow to me he's just a solid left back and when I say solid I don't mean no one can get past him I just mean he'll do you the job he's left he likes it he likes to be in a tight unit he's just not great going the other way just 24 last May so he's literally being 20 a week ago he was 24 so just going back where you're saying the funds will go from an attack on him in a mine would as well 100% but to me modern day football the full backs are the attack you've got to fix the first problem it's great and you're right we're trying to shape it and balance it of course you are but for me the greatest attack on left back so Dan left on side or perceived McNeill McNeill will be in front so to get to maximise the most out of him you need that person doing them runs but he proved Chris de Palas eraill Michael Encore when he made that run he doesn't do it and that's what I'm saying why doesn't he do it does he not do it because he can't do it so he's not doing it so he can't do it so therefore you've got to flip the switching now for all we know he doesn't want to cross the airfail because he wants to keep it solid because he really can't you're saying Lampard was screaming on too Lampard was saying I want you to go and he was going can I go then because don't forget he also come out of Ukraine where they first and foremost might have been for him before we attack so it's trying to flip that to him so if you go down at this debate that we're doing where you're looking at every position where could we improve upon that player you'd be changing most of it and there's a finite I'm only saying it because we've got one but you know that before he's solid he's okay so when you do it what happens when he's injured when we're doing the draft room discussions which is what we're playing at you say those are the questions if he's injured really falls out of form get suspended because defenders quite often get suspended then you need a backup and you say who is that backup is it your 17 year old kid who's never going to get on the pitch so you write because when we're doing the debate you go I'm going to minute he needs to develop he's not going to sit on his ass waiting for Michelin because he gets suspended or injured so you need somebody and that free transfer I mean I don't know much about them but they're the ones 100% because what I'd like there in my head is if you've got a left back who is an attacking one and a steady one you've then got the same on the right hand side with Patterson being your attacking one Coleman being your steady one then it gives you that balance and options and the squad is unbalanced and it's not just about balance it's about motivation because when the manager is screaming at Michelinco to get forward Michelinco knows there's a guy sitting on the bench and he'll get screamed at to get back so if you could be the one who can be solid defensively and get forward you may find yourself safe versus a guy who always disappears up the field people watching this will be screaming nails and cunkit wouldn't they he plays for the football he's just about to leave and that's your example can't get back he's all over the bench defensively and that's probably my head at that goal we'll take them when he thanks and off you pop obviously in midfield just very briefly and we'll wrap this up in the midfield we've already spoken personally Evan have been a bit sister in Mendy who's 23 but Algey just being relegated to 5 million they're the type I think Evan should be getting Evan an old budget we're looking at that but I've mentioned it before down payment on plays like that a 1.5 million which is bugger all nothing and for me that's a deal Evan should do because he could realistically replace a dress of Ghana gay in a year's time but you know you dress that up right and you said it again on the live about 5 million quid when you're going round the table not round the tower doing that sort of stuff and we would decide logically between keen and whole gate keeping whole gate instead of keen might save you a million pound a year and you're going to spend it on that guy that's how you left the juggle so I think that's what I will personally do or it's a million to get someone else over the line of course and I look at Ghana all we could do in all the year easily thought he was quite cool for Evan last season I know some people have a different view but I don't understand those people and it's numbers massively back he was fine he was more than fine he is loose with the ball we know that but competitive wise but if you've then got someone else who's competitive who's sat on a bench and you try to integrate them so that in the year he becomes the sub and he can drop them in and out as well but we know we need strikers Evan linked with free transfers and you've got Alungan in Qatar he's just got 40 goals he's 29 free transfers and everyone's going what it's like well he might be a third shoe he's a three and there's Musa Dembeleis he's younger though or baby's not now but someone like Alungan who's Alunga who is there and is unproven and at that age he's like six foot three he's all right for a number three because I think Evan might have to just piece this like this not might, he will Dembeleis had both to have we are centre forwards posting videos in Germany is in that new place I want that I want you to get over this nonsense that's going on for two years we want it anyway don't we and then bring two strikers in and I'm just using these two names because they've been linked with Evan heavily they're both free transfers Dembeleis Evan wanted to get in January and couldn't get him but he may well be able to get him now you've got those two in on freeze see Maupai for me will be I think Maupai will leave he's talking about going in he said he's thrived he's really improved that's selling himself that one is warm up much better but he may move on and then this is one and this might split people who are watching is what do you do with Ellis Sims because I know that he's 22 he's not good enough he's not good enough listen, goal scorer you're always a luck then to let go the one thing he can do is he can finish that no no but let's just let's just have it right he's not good enough he's not good enough in as much as Sean Deist and Lampard were absolutely crying out for the centre forward and he still wouldn't play him and he's 22 if he was 19 I would say keep him, loan him out again for another day he needs to go Tom Cannon needs to be that next one now after that they're the ones that we drag on too long because obviously Blackburn are interested in Ellis Coventry are interested Sunderland are interested in Ellis 10-15 suppose he won because he had 7 didn't he so therefore you might get 3, 4, 5 million but you might get a few million for him then Evan has done the job he's got a young kid trucking from the city when he was at least 16 developed and sold him put a buyer back in or put a sell on clothing and you look after it and then you write them and then what happens is if you can take Malpie and Sims away and it becomes again just for the purpose of the video Dembele and Alunga and Dominic Calvert-Lewin what you've got straight off the bat is you've got 3 centre forwards they're all over 6 foot and they've all got a history of putting the ball in the back of that and you've signed 2 for free now Alunga as a season and he gets 5 goals 6 goals bit like Moise baby Beckford you get him and you have a season he does alright and you go he's available like some of 30 years of age he's available 3 million 4 million I think that's how Evan has to shape this squad which is what we've been chatting about and then that would then need me with it would be a right winger for me then that would be the other area that I think we need I think that would hit the nail on the head I think you would have an attack or attackers then where you've got similar profiles around them proven goals obviously we were one's obviously a huge taking Alunga at 29 just cos he scored 90 goals in 3 seasons and Catar's a massive risk of course there is but if he's free and he's used to putting the ball in the net he's got one in two for Kenya at international level these aren't great things these aren't something that people who are watching are going to be all excited about running around getting Alunga on the back and just saying that there are players who have experienced these score goals where you might be able to get 3 wages won't be huge might be the way Evan has to do it but a right winger I think as well he's got a history of scoring goals for me personally will be left back a centre mid 2 strikers and a winger 5 that's not a lot and especially if 3 of them are free facilitating it's not the 9, 10, 11 other people I don't know where would you say 5 or 6 I think Evan will bring half a dozen players in different cases see the right winger might end up being Diallo from man United on loan I think it will be about 8 because you also need a number 2 goalkeeper well unless you use it for Kenya don't forget it's budget isn't it what I'm saying is again Diallo isn't perfect but before people say crap or Alunga Evan might end up with one of those might be a couple of other United we haven't even thought about that we've got your 4 loan spaces which would be criminal to not utilise them again like we didn't last season so you would expect 4 players to come in straight away you know that could be the the left back could be the loan happy days and let's give Michael that time to develop we're not getting a perm because we expect you to stress don't get any maths in front of Chelsea they've just been a barely on loan left back attack stuff like that and a centre back could be on loan we ask again but not necessarily cold don't get cold will right to be happy wouldn't you but realistically those loans have got to be utilised one of the strikers might be a loan someone like you plays absolutely fine but like you said right winger we are crying out for goals crying out for goals aren't meeting on before we finish the reality is we didn't concede a huge amount went through before the number we conceded the number we scored we need 10 to 15 more goals if you get in a strike 10 to 15 you'll finish mid-time if you get in a strike and you get 8 to 10 a right winger that gets you 5 or 6 it comes through like you said it will before you know it the quality gets 5 or 6 again the quality got 5 from half a season if James Garner was playing all season I think he'd won 5 or 6 you need to wait in that team he'll score a few this is almost southern positive Europa League here we come conference we want the conference mate come on we want when the conference gets you in the Europa League when the Champions League win it job done win it and then just retire just forget it show goes my work here is done I'm off to be the new real Madrid manager job done innit we will see obviously we're just having a little bit of fun with it but it is talking about how Everton can't shape it so I'll do Everton without pockets of money shape the squad what they've got and all of those obviously the retainers thanks to John, thanks to Mike give the video a thumbs up put that in the comments if you think Everton could realist don't just be negative and go to crap it doesn't matter and if you're a fan of another team you know enjoy your life don't worry about it give the video a thumbs up subscribe if you're having fun if you want to become a Trophy TV Premier member the link is in the description and the QR code will be on the screen up to you later