 Japanese Suzuki company gifted millions of dollars, I don't know what the figure is, to help two or three of those mountain conversion projects. So Suzuki coffee is one of the brands that I buy. Great. The one time that I was in China when I was traveling for 3M was many years ago, but I stayed late to continue the technology discussion with the managing director. And so he gave me a ride back to my hotel because they weren't going to let an unescorted American walk back even though it was about three blocks to the hotel. And the traffic was horrific. So we got stuck in a traffic jam in that short distance. And I recall looking over to the side to a small parcel of undeveloped property in downtown Bangkok and going, well, that's a really big cat. Oh, wait a minute. That's not a cat. That's a rat. Orange cat. Wrong letter. But I love Thai food. I've become quite the addict of Thai food. It's wonderful. It's not the perfect place to live, but it's way, way better than anywhere I lived in Europe. But of course it's all in the perspective of my own experience in my own life, isn't it? Some people come here, stay for a while and go home again because they don't like it much. I think that Bangkok has a very lovely blend of the Asian history. I mean, I shipped home. In fact, this is my one other Thai story. I went shopping, of course, in the Oriental market and I selected a very massive, well, you know, two and a half feet high similar dimension carved wooden elephant from the wood of Thailand and it's quite beautiful. So I shipped it home, which was no small feat because it wasn't really light. But then when it got here, it ended up that it was sequestered at the airport and I had to come in in person because they wanted to like double check it for drugs. Make sure it's not hollow. It's an interesting story and I actually bought the elephant rather than some of the other gazelle type carvings because my daughter at that time was about four and I knew she would want to sit on it and the elephant had very sturdy legs and she would be able to sit on the elephant. And so it was a it was a very fun purchase. I can look right across the room and see it right now. It sits in a place of honor in the living room. Greetings everyone. We just learned that the former king of Thailand converted the opium fields in the Thai highlands to coffee fields years ago and I had no idea. So that was pretty interesting. I put I've started a chat channel in Matamos called Barn Racing. If we can use that mostly. If you're not, if it's Matamos is not handy, no problem. Just use the regular chat and thank you for joining this call. Appreciate it. And I think I think I just I'm interested in in us riffing on how to describe the elephant like speaking of elephants, Judy. So how many different ways can we imagine what how to how to talk about OGM and how to to bring people into this conversation. So before that, any questions on the process or aims or goals or whatever is this relatively self evident. I love the in the devil's dictionary Ambrose beers is just definition for self evident is evident only to oneself. Which seems like happens all too often, doesn't it? Yeah, evidently. Exactly. The devil's dictionary is a is a huge treat like like he was such a such a wit and so smart about the world. So anybody want to take just a first pass at describing OGM to a stranger like what what do you say when they say, hey, how'd you spend part of your part of your lockdown. You're like, I did this OGM thing. What do you say? And they say what what what's that? I put some notes together. I don't know. I started yesterday, so I don't need to go first, but I do have something. Go ahead, Charles. Love it. I'm scrolling to where I can refer to it. Okay, one more. And Charles is an incredible black belt sensei of using a phone for everything like zooming while note taking while no reading while I don't know who knows. Well, I've I've yeah, currently I've escaped from my laboratory up to my so I can actually give a little there was some more sun earlier. Okay, here we go. We're hearing a little bit of wind on your mic. Okay, if I do that, I think that's better, right? Cool. Yeah, that's much better. Okay. Okay, so it's OGM. It's a cozy campfire. Like a church of sense making without formal prayer and scripture. A groovy federation of brainiac sense makers and our various incantations, shared tenants and values and profoundly far reaching yet gentle wokeness favoring co-version over coercion coalescing like murmurating birds, worker bees or ants in various complex natural ecosystem equates toward interoperability flow in all of its magnificent and messy glory. The core is the Thursday call with Captain Jerry at the helm of the yo-yo vibranium engine. It's OGM. Awesome, man, go right up the start. Thanks, Charles. And the sky is beautiful over your head. Just really beautiful. I'll hop in, Jerry, with what I had from the OGM workshop, but I think I still like it because it's short and crisp. Please. I said OGM exists for the growing body of shared wisdom that enables the action needed for our world and all its inhabitants to flourish for generations to come. Cool. And where did that take you? What it does for me is that I'm now, as of some time, a member of the OGM community, which enriches every week with multiple days of interactions with high-quality folks with broad scope and perceptions about the situation and what to do actively to make it better. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else want to take a swing just to describe OGM to a stranger? I have actually described it two or three weeks ago now when I was very much a completely brand new member, only been here once or maybe twice, to my best buddy here where I live. And I enthusiastically let him know that I had joined a new online community, which I think I said was a group of woke intellectuals discussing things that matter and trying to work out ways to improve whatever we happen to be talking about. I put it like that. He shrugged and said, hey, good for you. Thank you. It's so interesting because I think there's things about what we do and how we do it that we don't know or how we are perceived along in the group or to outsiders. I'm realizing this is a different kind of inquiry for me as well into like how do different parts of the organization sense the organization. I think that's interesting too. I'll just jump in with one other piece because being COVID blocked as we all have been, my primary interaction with humans has been through the OGM community and my taking OGME methods to two other nonprofits that I work with so that we could use them for all sorts of things. But I guess what makes it super special is the climate of trust amongst all of these people to speak really candidly about important issues, groups they've engaged with, things that have worked, things that didn't work or blew up, such that it's a learning community of sort of first order magnitude and an enabling community because just about anybody on the call will respond positively to hey, could we chat further about X and they'll go, of course, is next Tuesday okay, I'm free from one to four. And so the enablement of that human connection to work in partnership with anywhere from one to 150 or whatever our large community is, is really, really exceptional. It's sort of like a special alumni club. The closest thing that would come would be a really good alumni group from an intellectual institution where you have all these people from all the different specialties. And so if you've got a question about birds you ask Joe, if you have a question about finance, you ask Kevin and so forth. And by the way, Klaus, your video was really good. I watched two of them last night. And nice job, nicely done. Awesome. Thanks, Judy. It's sort of like we're alumni of life because we've, you know, all got our experiences. Some of us are on very precise, very specific journeys, very specific, precise quests. And here we try to figure out how to help each other and make these things work. Super interesting. Thanks. Go ahead, Mark. Yeah, so my thought basically is that we as human beings have a global impact. That's obvious, kind of obvious. In terms of responding to how to deal with that, there's kind of the Engelbartian quest of improving the tool system whereby human beings collaborate on a global scale. And he divided that in the tool system and human system. And the human system is basically, to my mind at least, the dimension of care, which is the fundamental thing that's really driving the tool system. So if we don't pay attention to the human system, we're just amplifying our own craziness. So to me, that's the essence of what an OGM is about is creating a global system of human collaboration with this kind of intention and intentionality of care and addressing both sides of that. Thank you. And just as a riff on that, I'll put in the chat, we're sort of an emergent techno social system of some kind, because we're very much about how do we fix and improve technology, but we're also very much about how do we address social dynamics, social issues. And I think we have a lot of people who are really experienced in the interaction between technology and humans. And that's a super interesting, super rich vein for me. Go ahead, Charles. Just that I would say Engelbart is like a patron saint of the Church of OGM. One of several, but like in the pantheon, up in the pediment, like maybe we need a little Greek temple kind of outline with, that would be interesting. We could paint up the pantheon of OGM deities. Doug, how do you explain OGM to anybody? Just curious. Well, to me, it's like a very friendly conversation where I've always feeling like I've missed the beginning. So you go along with the wave, try to find where the dance is, and there's a sense that there's a plan, but you missed it. But of course, the thing that's most impressive to me is the willingness to meander around in the conversation without having to pull it down to a agenda. And that is so rare, and it makes it very interesting to be here. But that's how you expand that is mystifying to me. It seems to me that at a certain point, there has to be a discussion of content of some issue. But I have the feeling that this is a fragile structure, and it might break under the impact of that kind of discussion. Interesting. And that's interesting. And we also have some subconversations going on, things like that. I learned a couple of weeks ago a Latin phrase that I had heard but didn't really know what it was, which is ingres media, which means you're starting in the middle. So I think that kind of applies to what you just said. We're always sort of jumping into the middle of something and then working on it. And real life was like that. Yeah, it is. But I think that characterizes the Thursday calls or check-in calls very much. I think that you've described really well our Thursday calls. And it's kind of intentional to not pin it down to a... I mean, every now and then it's great to have a theme and to work on something specific. But also I see pop-up calls like this one as ways that we try to focus and say, okay, today we just talk about this. But we have other things I kind of wanted to bring Bentley into the conversation because Bentley is also part of the Free Jerry's Brain group that meets on Mondays and has an experience of... And I don't know if you describe Free Jerry's Brain as having more of an agenda or more structure or anything like that, Bentley. But I'm just curious about how that changes your perspective of a jam as a whole or what role it plays in. Yeah, I think Free Jerry's Brain is more focused. Maybe not. Maybe the word focused is a little too specific. Maybe focused and I don't go well together. I don't know. Right, yeah, yeah. Always entertaining. Those are... But yeah, it is a more focused group. And then I've worked with several OGMers on focused tasks and building products. So I think the kind of unstructured community meetings is a great feature of OGM. I don't know if I would think of it as the main feature, but it is probably the gateway drug into it. So that's my feeling. Yeah, does that answer your question? That's great. That's great. Any other thoughts about just OGM as a thing, like your experience of it over these months? I'll get to you. Yeah, I think a community of people trying to improve the world intuitively and through action. I don't know how to get that meandering exploration and curiosity. Curiosity might be a good word because we're feeling and exploring, which is the bit of science that people forget. A lot of science came out of curiosity. And then you put it through the process. So yeah, curious problem solvers that are coming together to strengthen each other's work and work together, something like that. And I think that some of the early museums came out of curio cabinets or cabinets of curiosity where people would collect stuff and put it in the cabinet and show their friends. And then those just sort of spawned and went crazy and then were made more public. So Craig, then Michael, I wanted to say, Jerry, in one of the videos, existing videos on the website, you spoke of you used the analogy of estuaries, which I liked very much. I found it very resonant, very descriptive of what goes on here. And I just wanted to say I found that so useful if you want to rework that or just keep that video, whatever, I found that a valuable analogy. Thank you very much. And there's several different nature analogies that just work really, really well. I posted some of them in the barn raising chat. I'll just repeat them for a second. Where'd I put them? There we go. I said, I love how apt all the nature metaphors are to this moment from estuaries and leaf cutter ants to mycelia, dendrites and scoby. And scoby is like a mother or a starter, like it's a colony of bacteria that metabolizes food and changes it. So all those things are kind of what we're doing in different ways and work really nicely. Charles, go ahead and then Michael. I wanted to actually prompt you further to pick up from Craig, because actually you and a few others in some huddles, OGME huddles have been, you've been evolving that estuary lily pads thing. So I think, yeah, it would be great to hear the latest on that. And so, well, just briefly, estuaries are places where freshwater and salt water meet. So there are these sort of transition zones where lots of different kinds of critters exist. They're also usually nutrient rich zones. And unfortunately, they're usually places where cities exist, because humans usually build cities at the mouths of rivers where rivers meet the sea or meet a lake. So a lot of estuaries are kind of spoiled by human habitation and in fact, paved over by us and interrupted by us. But in their natural state, estuaries are these rich innovation zones, because that's where all kinds of interactions happen. And then during the seasons, they can be breeding sites, they can be all kinds of different things. And I think that the intersection, I extended the metaphor a bit, thinking about OGM-ness, like what is OGME, what is an OGME entity? What is OGM behavior? What are some of our assumptions or working principles? And then that some entities in the world already doing OGME work, although they wouldn't call it that themselves, because they don't know about open global mind, but some entities we love are kind of like the experienced fish that have been out at sea for a long time and might be coming back into the estuary to go upriver and spawn or something like that. And a lot of people, whether this is older organizations that are just getting an idea for how to treat the commons differently or how to build based on trust or how to build knowledge maps and understand these things, but having no experience on it are kind of like fresh spawn coming downriver and heading through the estuary and out to sea. And I was hoping that our space could be a meeting space for people with rich experience in these kinds of things to talk to the people who were just not that experienced, but really eager to do that so that they could learn from one another, pair up, go off and do projects, do whatnot, and sort of keep doing that to enrich what it is we're doing. So it's kind of almost like a DNA exchange, contagion zone, idea swapping zone, that kind of thing. Go ahead, Doug. Yeah, just as a footnote to this. There's a wonderful Indian writer, Amitav Ghosh, who wrote a book called The Great Disruption, and he says that it was only empires, western empires that built at the estuary at the mouth where the sea and the river come to do together, because these are places that get flooded in big cyclones and tornadoes. And the ancient civilizations were always built quite a ways up the river to avoid that. So the estuary is a very rich place, but if you start putting concrete and cinder and roads on it, you destroy it and you make yourself very vulnerable to storms. And also, because rivers bring silt and sediment, cities tend to wind up up river a lot, because the deposits make the delta larger and larger over time. So lots of things, lots of things. Yeah, I like the idea of punctuated equilibrium as a description of what happens. And the punctuated equilibrium brings up the dynamic side of the metaphor, whereas estuary is kind of calm, meditative, not changing. This is true. We could elaborate and say that we're located in the estuary during a period of punctuated equilibrium, which I think is pretty accurate in different ways. Thank you. Craig, did you want to jump in again? I thought I'd say. Okay. Michael, were you? Yeah. I still regard myself as an onlooker, but I'm definitely forming impressions of this group. You know, I do think the meandering around without pulling it down to an agenda, as I think I jotted down the quote, is kind of a beauty. I spend a lot of time in Zoom meetings like this and workshops and things like things that have a sense of prescribed outcome and urgency that, you know, is a driver, which is good in some contexts. This feels more like going to church. Not that I'm a churchgoer, but I mean, it just, I feel like there's the musing for the sake of reflection and sharing different perspectives on the same thing. I mean, we might talk about the same thought about our process for a period of time within a meeting, and it's beautiful. I mean, I'm learning a lot, and I feel like there's a lot of faith being expressed and shared desire in a way that like religious thought almost feels like it's the prayer that will give the result more than bullet points in a PowerPoint presentation and, you know, agenda items that might exist in another working meeting. You know, at the same time, I do feel like the draw of the OGM concept and what prompted me to reach out about does seem like there is a result that we envision. And I, you know, the wiki meeting on Tuesday that Peter, that you led was my first experience in like, well, okay, so what are we going to do here? And what are the specifics of this? And I really value that too and want to think about how my work, you know, with Factor can help and be informed by, you know, be a part of the OGM discipline, either just for myself or, you know, in service of everybody here, and then think about how, you know, as we talk about, I don't know, one of your agenda items, Jerry, in talking about this meeting was how do we and how does the website attract like-minded and preferably diverse people? And I think part of that is a vision of an ecosystem that we're building, you know, not that we're going to end up necessarily with one software product, but maybe a way and, you know, some commonalities between different platforms that, you know, they're conversations that feel almost too specific to bring up here that I have in other venues about interoperability and self-sovereign identity and, you know, data agency and data coalitions and all those kinds of practical things where shared practices among an OGM-informed community could help drive standards. And I don't really have an end to this spiel, but, you know, it's just sort of those are some of my thoughts. It's really lovely. And just from the start of what you were saying about sort of a lifeless Zoom, whatever, if nobody's seen the Gettysburg PowerPoint, I recommend reading, you know, what if Lincoln can use PowerPoint? It's priceless. Klaus, please. Yeah, I like the way Doug described it. It's very tender and very insightful. So I don't really have anything to add to that. But instead, when we first got into these conversations, Jerry, you had a challenge saying, what's OGM 2025? And I like that a lot because theory, you know, has this concept of leading from the emerging future. That means you put yourself into the future and then you pull the presence towards it. That means you have to have an image, a picture, an idea about what the future that you want should look like. And so I thought that was a great organizing principle to embrace. And because we're obviously struggling to see where could be engaged to add value. Now, software typically follows process. I mean, software develops structures that automate a process that is already established and approved on it. So what's the process that we want to either adapt or create to then develop a software structure around it? And so I think in the way we think about what we want to do, it's what is the process we're trying to develop here that adds value to a very disjointed effort. We are in a chaotic moment in time. I spent probably 90% of my time connecting things because there are so many efforts out there with groups who have organized themselves and trying to solve something and trying to do something which then turns out has already been done five times around them. And if you were just going to connect this, it would become so much more powerful. So my thought was this is the idea of becoming a consultant to consultants. Even consulting, you can't keep up. No matter how much time you spend online, you can't keep up. There's always something popping up somewhere that go, wow, where did this come from? And it's already so big. So to gather the information by a category that allows someone to come in and say, here's a problem I want to solve, what's there already? And to be able to find that, which is what you're doing with your brain, where you have the one topic, but then you have associations around this one topic that may lead to a deeper way of thinking about it. So that's what has been on my mind. I truly think this idea of what's OGM 2025 look like will be directional and it will help us to think about where do we want to engage in? What could we be doing about it? Klaus, thank you. And I really like you brought up, I think what is a simple point, which is that chances are somebody's already done the thing we're trying to do right now. Why don't we find them? Why is it so hard to find them? How can we connect them? And wouldn't we make life better if we could more rapidly connect people who solve different kinds of problems? And then with the caveat without homogenizing all those solutions and trying to centralize them. But this idea of reducing repetition, you know, reduplication, whatever else is a piece of I think what we're after that I hadn't thought about very much. So thank you for bringing that into the conversation. Judy, did you want to jump in earlier? It's a little off track at this point because we've gone through six things since then. Can I just tag on to Klaus very briefly? Go ahead, Charles, then Judy. It's super quick, so Judy. It's just I really appreciated the software follows process. And I think with OGM, it's a meta process or a series of processes, maybe a tool set. That's it. Thanks. Thanks, Charles. Back to you, Judy. Well, I waxed off into a funny space a bit ago, but it was sort of the poetic space in terms of the OGM is a combination of mind, heart, soul. And that trilogy is powerful in the sense that it empowers people. And I'm fond of a number of poets, but David White was recently talking about something and he framed something as those who will tell the story and who helped make it happen. And I think that we have a unique tendency in this group to collect the stories and share the stories and then add to them to move them forward. And I think that's one of our outputs in a sense is how do we publicize in very simple forms the stories? How do we share those and invite people to the community because of the many manifold stories? And I think Klaus is quite right that this technology follows process. But to have the forward technology, you have to have a vision of the future or the change that's needed. And I think this is a group that has both the vision and the ability to build steps to the vision. Thank you. And one of the things that's happening, this is really interesting because we're almost a year into into our calls. All of these things started with me talking to Matt Saia and Hamilton Ray and Hank Nelson, just the four of us for, I think, a couple months. And then we're like, why don't we open this thing up? And then it turned into our first conversations here. And there's a bunch of stuff emerging. It's really interesting. This is a little bit like a star nursery where some matter is kind of coalescing in different places. And there were some attempts at coalescing that kind of failed early on. We had some, you know, in free jerry's brain, Marc-Antoine Barrault put a whole bunch of effort into creating a semantic media wiki so that we might together create a pattern language using that particular kind of wiki. And it turned out when we started testing it that there was kind of a slightly fatal flaw in it. So we sort of, we set that aside and worked toward different things. And then Pete Kaminski has just recently gone and created massive wiki, M-A-S-V-F wiki, which I'm hoping he'll explain a little bit, which looks like the seed of that plus a whole bunch of other stuff that we're doing in different ways and might turn into a great example of O-G-M-E sorts of infrastructure and platform that can connect in to other sorts of tools. That's part of what we're looking for here. But also, before I pass it to you, Pete, but also we have a governance group, a steward group that's busy trying to, basically taking us into a structure, a formal structure for O-G-M that will allow us then to set up foundations, to set up businesses, other sorts of things as they show up and as we are motivated to staff them, run them, do things with them. And I think that we're, I think that our year of being in the star nursery, kind of letting things ebb and flow around, has been really useful in the sense of it. I think that the nutrients have moved around really nicely. The people have connected pretty nicely and we've got things crystallizing out of, out of this thing, which we'll start to see in the next few months. And also, I don't want to lose that sort of nutrient medium. I don't want to lose the sense of trust and community that we've built as well. So the question is about, is the Thursday call getting too big? What do we do about it? How do we change the protocol? Do we have two calls? How do we do it? That's a really super interesting question. And I love that we have that question because it means we have something that works that's like, we've blown some oxygen on some embers and we have a little tiny fire going, which is great. And now, how do we not kill the fire while building an igloo next to it? Or maybe I'm stretching the metaphor too far. But Pete, if OGM has a Scotty and a Spock and a Zulu, it's probably you. So I'm wondering how you, like, how do you describe OGM to other people? What do you think? Can you describe some of these things going on? Yeah, sure. I think, so we started, I feel like OGM started, the thing that blossomed was this kind of co-rivery that we have that's led by you, Jerry, that's kind of the heart and soul. It feels like church, as Mark said. And not in a religious way, but in a, you know, in a holistic and natural and thoughtful and human way. Very humanistic. But we do this co-rivery together. That's super important to what OGM is. And for some people, that's good enough. Every week, I get a quiet spot in my week that's an hour and a half of dreaming with people, dreaming with other people. At a little bit larger scale, the thing that I like about OGM or the thing that OGM is still, it's a community not structured on what we do together, but how we do it. And it's not structured with a hard boundary. It's structured with very soft boundaries. So OGM is the people who are attracted to be OGM-y. OGM is a verb in some sense. So it's a thing that we do together more than it's a thing. So one of the things that happens in this primordial soup or estuary, I think of it kind of like primordial soup, where we've got little different entities that coalesce around ideas or needs or wants or things. So some of the coalescences I'm in are about how do we create the infrastructure for people to communicate together and work together? How do we start to understand what we need in this collective of collective of collectives? How do the collectives sense make together? What kinds of communication protocols do we need to move the things back and forth? So I'm struck every time it's happening more and more. As I explain OGM to other people, it's like, well, actually this little coalescence, flotilla for instance, or the stewardship council, we start to need these certain structures that occur over and over at different faculty levels of scale. We need a little bit of idea of governance. We need some infrastructure. We need some communication protocols and norms and things like that. And that same pattern kind of seems to happen in small scale with a few people and at larger scale with a dozen or two dozen people and at larger scale with OGM and KecoLab and OGM and KecoLab working together. So that fractal nature, people helping each other since making together I think is what OGM is. And then it's another interesting thing is each of those more or less sovereign entities together. It's hard to call OGM sovereign because it's so expansive that it's kind of like just everything. But something like flotilla or something like the collective sense commons or or even the steering team, the stewardship team. I lost my train of thought. Something about each of those things together feels like flotilla feels like it's its own thing, but it's also part of OGM and it's also not part of OGM. It's also part of KecoLab. It's also part of Catalyst. So together all these things mesh together in this kind of weird and wonderful way. You mentioned Massive Wiki. I just came off of a great call with Bill about Massive Wiki and right after this column I'm going on to flotilla. Massive Wiki, I wrote a little thing in the Massive Wiki channel. I had this bizarre kind of realization late last night after a day of Massive Wiki-ing with a bunch of different people and OGM-ing and flotilla-ing with a bunch of people. Late at night I was kind of putting pieces of the information that we had, you know, meeting notes and things like that, collecting it and structuring it a little bit better in the Wiki. And even Massive Wiki is this thing that's kind of decentralized and fuzzy. I'm used to a tool like Google Docs say, I go to my, you know, I go to my browser, I find Google Docs and it always looks the same. You know, it's always Google Docs. It feels like solid and steady and it does what it does and if there's something else that I wanted it to do, I don't even think about it because it's not going to do, you know, anything else besides being a very good Google Docs. Massive Wiki on the other hand, it's like, well, I need it to be something that's useful for Judy. I need it to be something that's useful for Jerry. I need it to be something that's useful for Charles. I need it to be something that's useful for Lauren. Every time I think about one of those people, it's like I would actually assemble, Massive Wiki is kind of the, it's built out of the ecosystem of tools that manage markdown and manage editing files and manage syncing files. So it's like I collect together a different tool set for each of those people. And even me, I'm decentralized on my desktop. I have Taipora when I need a beautiful editor and I have Obsidian when I need to see the Wiki or need to see the graph structure of the Wiki and I have HackMD when I need it to be collaborative and I need to have a meeting with other people that where they can connect together. Those three are all different editing tools just for anybody who's never heard those terms before. And they're editing and syncing and working together tools. And I have to admit it's a little bit frustrating. Where's my one thing that I can kind of zone in and be just the Wiki? I don't have that. I have a bunch of different tools. But if I relax a little bit, if I kind of sit back, it's like I can actually get done whatever I need done and I have a lot of flexibility. And I know at the other end of the sync the other end of the sync process, Charles or Jerry or Judy can see what I see in the Wiki in the ways that they need to see it that are going to be different than the ways that I need to see it. So in a sense, even massive Wiki has become kind of a microcosm of the decentralization and flexibility and peer to peerness of OGM. So I thought that was really cool. Thank you. Charles, did you want to jump in? And then I'd like to double down. He just inspired me to song. Can you see what I see? Anyway, a special shout out to Pete and to Flotilla, Collective Sets Commons, Vincent, Bill, and a few of us who've been huddling and struggling. We're getting a lot of wind noise across your microphone. Can you find shelter? Or turn your back to the wind is probably the best thing. I just did. Is that better? Sorry. Should I repeat? I don't know. It's much better, but I just thought again. So I'm up here with my fingers freezing and shoveling of soil and compost and my battery's going. But I'm going to try to be brief and just not just sing Pete's praises, which is a meme that is constant, but to point to Flotilla and the kind of constellation around Collective Sets Commons. I don't have the right metaphor, but I talked about the Thursday call and the vibranium engine as the core of OGM. And I think the other part of the core actually is exactly all this Flotilla-E stuff that Neil Ford mentioned. And it's about federation, and it's not like one thing. I think it is definitely more of a verb and there's just so much in there. But I hope that was useful. Thanks. Thanks, Charles. So I wanted to riff a little bit on what Pete offered in, which is I'll give a real quick description of why I'm excited about the massive wiki experiment. And part of it is that it's not just massive wiki. I think that what Pete's working on turns into lots of different sorts of things. So I'll give a really simple example. A wiki looks at a whole series of pages that are in the namespace. So wikis are used for pattern languages and other kinds of things. But any one of those pages might contain how to onboard new members of OGM. That same page, and the idea behind massive wiki is to use a really, really, really simple file format called Markdown. And Markdown is a sort of a lingua franca. There's lots of different ways you can use a Markdown file. It's like a text file with a little bit more information, and it's not as complicated as a full-on HTML web file. So now imagine using that same page and putting it into a PowerPoint-like presentation by using a different program that sees a bunch of Markdown files in the same space and treats them as if they were PowerPoint, and then blows away all the artifacts on screen, goes full screen, gives you right left buttons, and you can click through them. But the content of that PowerPoint is the same as the content of the wiki in that page. And then you could also build, we're busy rebuilding the website. We're probably going to use a static site generator, which means, which is a fancy way of saying, we can use the same little Markdown files to go and build a website. And so that same page curated by many people using these funny, right now complicated sort of editing tools can exist also on the website. And when somebody updates that page, it changes in the PowerPoint, it changes in the website, and it changes in the wiki, and it's sort of consistent that way. And we can share it out and sort of edit it in community with other people. And we start to separate how you use the data from the data curation in a really interesting and useful way. And that I really, really like. I'm very, very enthused about that. And then as we're talking about all these entities Kiko lab and flotilla and CSC and so forth. And it gets confusing because we keep naming entities. One of the things that's happening in our GM is that entities are floating through the estuary. And some of them are coming in really sort of are either spawned in the estuary, we're sort of born from a conversation here, or were projects that we had that are carried in. And part of what we're learning to do, we're trying to do is to figure out how closer far away from GM does is that entity, while preserving its identity and sovereignty, like where does it fit on this spectrum. And as we move toward having a platform that can host nonprofit and for-profit activities, some entities may want to just dock on the platform and say, awesome, I want to use the back end that is open global mind, and then go do things in the world. And others will be like, you know what, I'm good. I've got everything I need right here, but I'd love to participate in the OGM community and feed the commons of information that you're doing and all of that. And so in a way, and this is one reason why we're attracted to the steward ownership model that I'm talking about a little bit, we're trying to model how to live and work together in the new sort of economy and a new way of looking at information where we're all busy. And here's the other, one of the other metaphors I love, which is relief cutter ants basically feeding the fungus in the termite hive, in the ant hive. And as we all multiply leaves and feed the fungus, the fungus metabolizes leaves and feeds us all. So how can we get to that state where there's more activities going on and there's some revenues flowing through this community without messing up the Thursday calls? And I've just turned this into a forward-looking strategy call, but I'm kind of doing that to light up some of what I'm hoping OGM can do and will do in the coming bit, which is where I wanted to steer the conversation next. So Charles, and then let's sort of look to what, so for everybody to think about, what do you wish OGM could do just from your experience of it and what you're hearing and all of that? Go ahead, Charles. So again, very briefly, just I think you said it just there, conversation, I think is the key. Sorry, there's a siren out there. It adds a lot of local color. Thank you for the siren. Conversation at different scales and in different, within different flotillas and within obviously different tools and platforms and all that. All as a constellation. And I think I just wanted to flash on kind of highlighting what Pete referenced and even point, you know, the question that you just directed, Jerry, in terms of, for example, myself or Mohan or Judy, you know, having, let's say, lesser technical skills than a lot of others and not just that, but using exactly using those conversations and our various diverse perspectives to actually do the designing and building in motion. Thank you, Charles. And it's very funny, you're sitting there and with your hood up and all that, I'm getting this feeling like you're Matt Damon stuck on Mars planting potatoes in the crew's shit, you know, trying to figure out a way to get back to earth. So I like the siren is just adding to that whole sort of ambiance. Oh, perfect. See? See? There's a dimension of this that's really, it borders on the boundary of magic and spirit in the sense of the cohesion of the many diverse perspectives and viewpoints in the shared values as a framing grounding station, but then where you take the action to improve whichever path you're on. We're sort of observing and creating the story of forward progress. And I think that that's part of the visionary process that I think this group is uniquely capable of addressing is framing multiple visions and then seeing the paths that can move toward it, the many different paths by many different types of implementers. And I think that could be quite rich for us. Thank you. And one of the things you just said that I really like that I think I underappreciate is how many black belts and varying disciplines we have attracted. I think that we're pretty good at that. We've got a lot of people who are really, really skilled in the thing that they care a lot about and have learned a lot and used a lot in their lives. So there's two topics I want to steer us toward. One of them is what do you wish OGM could do? And the other one really is diversity because we have a diversity problem. We're not doing well at that. I tried hard at the beginning and I said, hey, if you're coming into these meetings, try to bring somebody who isn't, and you're a white guy like me, try to bring somebody in who isn't like you. That tactic didn't really work. I have my own ideas about what we're going to do to improve diversity, but I'd love to go there as well because it's totally an issue for where we are. Go ahead, Mark. I guess I have a comment or even maybe a kind of a warning. So this is a global group and global scope. This morning I was zooming with another group, global scope, centuries vision. That's only two. There's more that you and I are involved with. So the question is, we cannot own this space. I cannot, you cannot, we cannot. But that's an incredible challenge. I mean, we have a diverse world. People come from all kinds of backgrounds, many similar intentions, but differently expressed. So it's not only the challenge of how to integrate those, which is kind of the tool level as I see it, to some extent. But also the question of how do you keep a no man's land in the middle that's held by everyone with their own perspectives, but doesn't belong to everyone? That is a beautiful question. Would you mind riffing on it for two sentences more? And then I'll pass it to Klaus and Peter. Well, I think like for example, you know, I live in Canada, we have diversity, not just in terms of the Indigenous people, but the Quebecois French. And there's a question of how do you keep a confederation or a federation together with all this diversity without it splitting up? We see that all over the world, these kind of questions. And I mean, there's a lot more that could be said, but I think it's really crucial. And I'll just point out at a moment where political parties around the world have discovered that intentional undermining of trust, connection, all of that kind of stuff can break us apart. And at the end of a century of capitalism that has decided to own everything and control everything, and has created these mechanisms that are sort of these vortices into which many, many things are drawn. So I think very much we're trying to hold ourselves in the middle of that. I put in the chat, are we sort of about eagerness connecting so that we don't need to own it? We would just like to plug y'all together and figure out how this might work better. So Klaus, Peter, then Michael. Yeah. The moment we are talking about revenue, they're wanting to generate interest in getting a grant or actual revenues from parties who are buying a service they value. We have to have a clear definition of what that is. And I think what we're struggling with is what is the value creation that we can actually deliver that somebody would be willing to pay for, whether that's a grant-based fund because we're adding value into social sphere or whether that is actual revenue from business entities willing to pay for a specific piece of advice. And I think that's sort of what we're struggling with. If you take revenue out of it, we're good. But the moment we add revenue into the picture, then it gets complicated. That's getting complicated. Pete? This is a rich conversation and one I'm super excited about. And thanks, Mark, for framing it. So this is, it's interesting actually that you said Federation too about Quebec. So I think I say, I might say Federation about what we do, but really it's federating. So already I've pushed hard on federating and making small focused sovereigns. So Collective Sense Commons is a sovereign that aligns itself with OGM, but it also aligns itself with Keek Lab. And it's also its own little entity that has its own needs, wants and desires and fascinations. One of the things about these coalescences is I'm pretty sure my intuition says that you want to keep them really focused and have a specific kind of vision and goal in mind. So CSC, Collective Sense Commons, all it cares about is information infrastructure communication tools for people and organizations that want to do Collective Sense Making. That's all it cares about. It's like, does it care about Wikis? Well, cares about Wikis, but only to the extent that it's a tool for information sharing. Do I care about, does CSC care about the technology of Wikis? No, not at all. You know, point me at the right, at a good one, and then I care. The same person, I'm mostly, most of CSC is me. And then there's another thing called Massive Wiki, which isn't yet really a guild or an organization or something like that. I think of that as a movement. It's totally fascinating about the technology of Massive Wiki, not even Wikis, just Massive Wiki. So Tilla is totally fascinated about directories and matchmaking and coordination tools for calendars and things like that, coordination tools. Each of these is very focused. They're all federating together. When I'm working with, when Flotilla is interfacing with OGM, it's like, oh wow, Flotilla and OGM are best friends. Flotilla is part of OGM. When Flotilla is working with KikoLab, it's like, oh wow, Flotilla and KikoLab are best friends. Flotilla is part of KikoLab. There's an art to federation that we're going to need to learn, we're going to need to figure it out, how to do it, how it works. But when it's a verb, you're federating with a bunch of people who are kind of the same and kind of different from you when you're, there was another verb in there, federating and OGMing. The other verb is OGMing. We sometimes, some coalescence of OGM that maybe the steering council, when we bump into somebody else in kind of a business sense, it's like, tell me what OGM is. Here's what I think OGM, it's a bunch of consultancy kind of people who think big thoughts and know how to get stuff done kind of, and we want to, and I'm like, well, hold on, wait a minute. There's a part of OGM, there's a coalescence of OGM that's that, but when you say OGM, the thing, you're actually talking about a cloud, you're talking about a collective of collective of collectives, you're talking about a verb, you're talking about a movement. Same thing with Massive Wiki or same thing with flotilla. It's not, you know, it's a coalescence, it's a place where it's gotten, the primordial soup has gotten concentrated. And then all of that, the concentration is kind of like mix and mingle and flow together and things like that. So then each sovereign entity in the federation, in the federating flotilla of connectivity, it's sovereign. It has its own norms and needs and wants and visions and things that it likes and things that it doesn't like and things that it refuses to have part of itself. So maybe there's the vegan coalition and maybe there's the non-vegan coalition, you know, and those things, if they're OGM-ing, if they're federating, they can like bump into each other and they are going to have places where they can agree. And then they're going to have places where I'm sorry, we don't agree with you and, you know, that's our coalescence over here. If you want to be with the mediators, go over there. You know, we don't like you here, but we can all meet together in OGM. So I think back to your question, Jerry, about diversity, for better or for worse, it pains me significantly that, you know, OGM as a coalescence, from, I think it happens from initial conditions, you know, you kind of know the people that you know that are kind of like you. And then so you accrete people who are kind of like you. And then it becomes, it's got its own kind of gravitational energy and gravity or electrostatic, you know, attraction and repulsion. It's hard for, you know, it's hard for the next non-pale person to come into OGM and say, oh, wow, look, these people all look like me. They all think like me. They all have stuff to do like me. They all have the same challenges in society like me. And, you know, if I'm somebody different coming into, you know, a group of 100 people who don't look like me, that's a big ask. It's a huge ask, right? And if you say, well, okay, then how about if, you know, if OGM has 100 people, gather 100 people that look like me and bring it over to OGM, and then it's like, well, that's not really OGM. I think maybe the path forward is in federating with other folks who like, you know, and have their own coalescences. Some of the coalescences will be these perfectly mixed, you know, gender, race, racial things, which would be awesome. That's the one that I would love to be in. Maybe I don't because I, you know, I looked the way I do and I grew up with where I did and I have the, you know, biases that I have. Some of them might be completely different, you know, they might be all like vegans or all not vegans or all, you know, brown people or all blue people or all, you know, whatever. I think if we're OGM-ing together, you know, and I think that's the path forward for better for worse for the thing that is OGM right now, the path forward is, is bumping into federating with organizations that are different from us that think about the same kinds of things as OGM, that are different in other ways. A brief thought before I pass the mic from Michael and Judy, and that is building on what you just said. One of my beliefs is that we, if we put ourselves in service of other communities that are far more diverse than us and we can be useful to them, then we form the kinds of federations we just talked about and our community gets more diverse merely by being in action for important social issues. And one of the thoughts I had as we were facing sort of diversity issues mid-summer, mid-pandemic lockdown was, if you're a person of color in the middle of Black Lives Matter protests, you have better things to do than to be an OGM, probably. Like this is interesting and useful and we should build stuff that is of service for those things. And I think a lot of the reason that some of us are here in this group, in this conversation, is that what we're working on might actually solve things like institutionalized racism and so forth. And that may sound like a long shot, but that's where I'm aiming personally. But if we can be of service to those groups, to whether it's Me Too, Black Lives Matter, or other kinds of bias and access, and just this cultural divide that has us locked up, unable to do things in unison about climate change and so forth, I think we get somewhere. So that matters a whole bunch to me. Michael then Judy. Yeah, I did want to hear what Peter's saying and what you're saying and just, sorry, what I was originally going to say bears some reflection of what you guys have just said. I do think that one thing that is very apparent to me is the privilege it is to be in this group and the privilege it takes to be in this group. I think the amount of time that we spend in a single meeting, the amount of time that you guys have spent getting to this point, I'm getting to this beautiful point, developing the scripture to go back to the church metaphor and expanding on it is beautiful, but a privilege that a lot of people don't have. I mean, I mentioned last, I guess, Tuesday, the Mozilla Festival, which has been going on and ending today, as a matter of fact, and I just came from a Zoom session there where I was the only person who wasn't brown. And, you know, it's, I mean, I think it's, I don't know how we do it. And I know, you know, what we were saying about federating with other groups that are more diverse than ours is a good thing. But I do think creating ways for there to be OGM, OGM-y things going on that are subgroups, that are action groups, that are having meetings, that are like, of lesser duration or take advantage. I mean, this is one thing that I brought up in the last meeting just around the work I'm doing. And I think a lot of the stuff that Peter's been talking about speaks to this, ways of associating in asynchronous ways that take into account available time and time zone differentials and, you know, just different sorts of lives and privilege, you know, for us to come up with some ways that we can have, that we can invite people into things that everyone has the privilege to access seems really important. And whether a subgroup of us want to talk about the practicalities of that, I'd really be enthusiastic about doing that. I mean, I thought about in the meetings that I was in over the last few days at Mozilla Fest, I saw a bunch of people who I thought, you know, would bring a lot to this conversation. It would be, it's funny, I mean, I was thinking about, okay, these six people would be really at home with this group, you know, and it's not everybody that I saw there. It was just like a few, you know, they tended to be older, they tended to be more academic, they, you know, people, but, you know, they were more diverse. And I thought, but at the same time, I don't feel confident inviting any one of them to this group to be the lone, non-pale face. And so I don't know, I'm again, you know, saying something without a real conclusion, but I'm throwing that out there as just, you know, I would like to be active in figuring out ways that we could have other formats that, you know, allow for different voices. You may feel what you just said was a little chaotic or something. I'm really grateful for what you just said, Michael. And I think it's really important to what we're doing. And you sort of, you double down on Pete's comment that it's really hard for somebody who isn't, you know, pale enough to jump into this group now, because just the numbers that exist that show up on our calls. And then I understand that. So all, so yes, let's, let's focus on this and let's figure out how it works and what we can do about it. I love that. Judy, over to you and you're muted. The comment I wanted to offer is that when I think about diversity and breadth and attitudes and all the things we've been talking about and I especially liked what you said, Michael, about the privilege, because I think that there's an unconscious privilege that most of us actually do understand, but it's just not front and center in the same way that it is for an individual who has been on that spectrum. And the only way I can really personally relate is go back to what was it like to be a woman in the 70s who was entering science fields. I was always the only one in the room. And then I got asked what women think about something. And it's like, I'm just one woman, I can't represent all 100s of other people, my friends have different attitudes. So I think that where I'm going with this is, I think a way to do what you're asking about or perhaps an attempted experiment would be not to invite people to come to us, but to ask if we could go to them and be part of their community to better understand their issues in order to be able to help them. Because then we're the diverse person, they're comfortable, we're listening, not teaching, we're learning, we offer wisdom if we think we have any. And I think I've said enough that you get the gist of what I'm saying, but I think that would be a powerful way for us to engage people. And in particular, I would target people who are a minimum of 20 to 30 years younger than me, because the younger population is less differentiated in their view of the world. They're not perfect by any means, and some of them are privileged and some are not. But I think that next generation, the people who are in their 20s and 30s now see the world quite differently because of their life experiences. And if I can jump in at it, because I actually meant to say something that speaks to what you just said, Judy, just that when we, I mean, I really felt like I didn't know whether after Tuesday any of the people here might be going out to Moz Fest, but I thought even if we're not coming back with recruits, we're coming back with the experience of being the different one in the room, we're coming back with vantage points that we didn't have before we went in there. So I do think the idea of all of us fanning out and there are groups like, you know, Civics, New Public, Civic Signals, CHT, All Tech is Human, and this Moz Fest group and other groups that I'm finding out through there where I just, you know, for us to fan out into the world and be the ambassadors instead of just thinking about how we can bring people in here will help. Thank you. Thank you. Bentley. Just to mention, I know a pretty well, a diversity consultant who runs a non-profit for people of color and women businesses that I consult in and I reached out to him said, you know, is this something he'd be interested in? He said, yes, but I haven't quite figured out how to engage him and I don't know if there would be an expectation or a desire for monetary compensation or if that's maybe required. So I haven't done all that, but I just want to kind of offer that up as a connection. We can figure out how to engage the services. He's fabulous. I've worked, I've done two cohorts through this mentoring program and startups and yeah, it's a great guy. And I agree. I think if we were to seek advice on this front, there would be really, really normal and expected to offer compensation. So that makes a lot of sense. We've gone over an hour. I didn't intend for us to go 90 minutes on this call. I thought we would keep it short, but I love where we've gone. If anybody has any closing thoughts, either about what you think OGM might become or anything we've talked about here or something we forgot to cover that would be useful to describe OGM to newbies, please speak now or forever hold your peace. Actually, you don't have to forever hold your peace because you could easily record something that's happening to me. So, but still, it sounds matter most. It sounds so much more dramatic when I phrase it that way. I would invite people to continue the chat in matter most because I think just popping back into barn raising and throwing whatever thought you have two hours from now because I know that happens to me. It's like two hours or three hours from now. I'm going to say I wish I had said X or I wonder if Michael could answer this question. And so I think facilitating that personal communication at either the group level or the individual level is a good thing to do. And Michael, I just want to thank you because when I offered up, we should be of service to other communities. You just loaded a whole other channel for me to do to spend time on to like just go go be the guest somewhere else. That's a it's a lovely obvious thing that had not occurred to me whatsoever that I need to go do. So thank you for that. And thanks. Thanks for the thanks. And I'll try to share in, you know, in matter most someplace some some places that I've gone. I'm sorry, we're too late on Mazda snap it. Yeah, sorry. And I didn't realize how diverse it was. I'm what I'm just don't have the time for a clubhouse. But one of the one of the things I noticed immediately about clubhouse was was that of the all the spaces I am online, it was the most diverse by far, which was it's one of its major virtue for me. It's like, oh, okay, good, here I can sort of find, you know, listen to people who have who are different from me. Any other closing thoughts? Thank you so much for your time. Really, I'm totally appreciate this. I'm going to stare at this from the perspective of how do I trim up the things we said? I mean, I'll do the obvious thing with with our conversation. If you can think of other people I should talk to I'm happy to do this again one on one or in small groups just over the next couple days. If you can think of a couple people I should talk to or if you have a conversation that occurs to you tell me and I'll set one of these up. And again, thank you very much. Bye for now. Thanks, everybody.