 Everybody, this is Christian Buckley doing another MVP buzz chat, and I'm talking today with Nuno. Hello. Hi, Chris. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well. And so folks that don't know you, who are you, where are you, and what do you do? So I'm Nuno do Carmo. I'm a Portuguese living out in Switzerland, smaller country. As you can maybe tell here, I work for a company named SUSE, the Linux SUSE, but on the cloud native branch, which is the acquire rancher company. And I'm a tech writer. Sorry. Yeah. Oh, a tech writer. Yeah. It's great. You are so far out of my world, so I'm interested in learning about that. So I always like to ask, I like to know people's origin story. What was your path to becoming an MVP? We were just talking before we hit record a little bit about that, but why don't you give like the whole story of how you found out about the program got involved? Right. So very short, or very short story before I got involved, I always loved Microsoft, so I'm a Microsoft person really by heart. I got, I worked in L desk, field services and so on, always in the Microsoft side until I reached HP, where we were acquired a small company, and we were acquired by them. And I went to be a UNIX administrator. And there I learned a little bit about Linux and mainly UNIX HP Wax Solaris. And what we'll make the bridge now to where the discussion started is that by then it was 2008, I had to deep dive kind of into visualization, not really hyper-v, back then still on the desktop at least, but because I had to understand or learn about like Linux and UNIX. And I wished back then, sorry it's a lot of back thens, but back then I wish that we had something as like WSL. Fast forward now, WSL arrived 2016-ish, V1, totally fall in love, the community started very fast also around it, other passionated people that I now I can call friends. And in 2009, 2020, I became insider MVP first and 2020, COVID happens, 2021, I become MVP. And I have my second year of insider, but I'm focusing a lot into WSL too. And mainly so for the ones who know the plushies around me around cloud native mainly into WSL. So I try to bring the dockers, the Kubernetes, the workloads, whatever you have into WSL too, if possible, blog about it and then publish it and do some talks even from time to time into the cloud native space. With that going through then 2021, 2022, 23 now and 24 going on, I became a full-time Microsoft MVP. I'm no more an insider MVP, saddens me a little bit, but when Microsoft split out WSL as a feature from WSL as now an app store package, my need to be in the let's say the insider rings where less and less, let's say, present, I would say, I would say, it's not true. I have some insider machines still working here, but it's like the insider MVP at least didn't so WSL as part of it, but the Microsoft development MVP, which is the one I am now, is part of it. So 2020, it was thanks to someone called Aidan Barnes, my friend, he was my manager also at Susan for some time. We built the community, but he was really like the is still like the really person in the front, for front of the community, the go-to person kind of and like him, we were always like the Microsoft persons of the Linux world kind of. So it's always been funny, but yeah, no, thanks to him, he opened quite a lot of doors and of course, WSL became more present. WSL too became even bigger because now people were really being able to use it in a company, thanks to the micro VM part, let's say, but other people at Microsoft suddenly contacted us and that's how we got named as MVPs. Well, I know that we'll go back to I was just thinking when they just for folks that don't know, they just rebuilt and relaunched the mvp.microsoft.com site where you collect and they've instead of it being a separate site for the regional directors, you can also search and find RDS that are there as well as student ambassadors. My first question is like, why are the Windows Insiders MVPs not also on that site? I know it's just it's a different thing. It's a different program. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's just run by a different organization entirely and so they don't have it in there, but I think is there any reason why you can't maintain both of those? Again, yeah, because Insiders is a lot like I'm really blogging about WSL, getting back to the team, mainly on Twitter potentially, but with IDs, with bugs that I could face or I'm helping companies or projects to get into WSL also by writing articles for them and stuff like that. So when WSL was part of Windows Insiders channels only, to find a place for us WSL, let's say fans, they found kind of that page. But then I think WSL became finally the rightful. Yeah, exactly. So now it's more development itself. So to get back nowadays, I think like everyone that will get back to want to get back to Windows Insiders MVPs. There's a lot happening into the Dev Home initiative recently and projects that they have. And I think that's the right place. I'll continue a lot into more the WSL part because that's where that's my niche. Yeah, I know that going back historically to the Microsoft marquee event, so Ignite, Inspire and Build, there's always been a heavy push by the Windows org to get people to join the Insiders program. I joined years ago as a member, never was an insider MVP, but was part of that and got the communications and different calls and access. So that's just something for, I always, because people always ask the questions and I'm sure you've been an MVP long enough that I'm sure you've had a number of people that have reached out like, how did you become an MVP? Like how could I become an MVP and talk to people or formally mentor them around that? But this is just, it's another option is the Windows Insiders program. I mean, there's a number of ways that you can get plugged into Microsoft communities. I mean, I work for an ISD and so we're in various TAP programs and other things that are NDA and certain number of employees are active within kind of those circles. But as an individual, Windows Insiders is a great way to get involved. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, like it's funny enough when you say like, okay, I'm providing a feedback. I'm providing an ID to the team, to Microsoft. And now I'm not, let's say talking about any app developer, we are talking about one of the biggest in the world. And suddenly you are providing an ID as an insider because you are, let's say, working in the future kind of that's how I, that's why I like the Insiders because for me it was like, okay, people will know about this feature in months to come and I'm using it today. So I'm kind of like in the future already. But the thing is like by providing that ID sometimes, because they do listen, that's really the thing that I always try to explain to people that are, let's say, I come from the, I'm in the Linux world, right? So Microsoft is maybe not the best friend they have there. But what I can tell today, at least the Microsoft of today, it's not the Microsoft of early. It's changed a lot. Yeah, I know, I know what, look, I was there 12 years ago, and it was just starting to open up into the open source world. And I know some of the people, some of the executives that were really pushing Satya Nadella was one of those people that was when he was over in the live organization, he was a huge advocate for the open source and building up around, because Microsoft had killed like the Macintosh business unit, the MacBook for a while was in the same building was couple floors down from me. And they killed that while still supporting the products. And he advocated for expanding that so open source Mac and kind of integration with other third party platforms. So you've seen a lot of those partnerships grow with SAP, with Adobe, with Oracle, with others. Wow. And that's what that's a very good point. And thank you. That's why I said, like, I really like to have like insights from people that knew also the past, because what I tend to tell people nowadays is like Microsoft changed leadership. But please don't think that Microsoft changed. And now it's open source, like friendly, it was always open source friendly, but the management at some point in time will block it. But the people that created WSL are people that were working for Microsoft. Since long ago, people that are now working potentially in the GitHub division, people that are making other tools, the power toys, they were working already there. The Scott Hanselman is there like for 20 years plus, right? And it's a great advocate for open source and developers. But they were already working there. The problem was not the people at the end of the day is like certain strategies or management were like blocking it. But with Satya that came in, and now we have someone that's really like leading, you do want to do open source, please go ahead and promote it, not just stop there, promote it. And now it's like, oh, wow, Microsoft is, there's new people. No, it's yes, there's new people, but there's a lot that were already there and they wanted just to be as open as they are today. Right. Well, I like it. It's a very close parallel to just the community in general. And you had a lot of people that pushed back around the community activities and being, I mean, it was very refreshing a few years back where one senior executive said, look, we want to be as open as possible. And we want to err on the side of being, you know, too open and sharing with the MVPs and the RDS and the people under NDA and getting that feedback about and they change product direction. I mean, we had a direct impact on products, on features. Yes. And that still, well, you know, and that it kind of ebbs and flows. It opens, it tightens around certain things. But for the most part, you're right. I mean, we do have a voice as MVPs, customers and partners also have a voice in there. It's different products, different, you know, leaders within Microsoft have different levels of impact. There are some leaders that are very open and listening or receptive to anyone. I know executives that answer questions directly on Twitter. True. And that's my workplace, let's say, for community work. It's really like I'm still mainly on Twitter slash X, whatever you want to call it. But Twix. I heard somebody was calling it Twix. No, but the thing is like, I met several persons, like I met visually, right? But I met several persons, especially the WSL team, there on Twitter. And we were like talking back and forth, tweeting, answering, testing on my side, doing blogs. It's great. Wait, at the very beginning, it was like, okay, it's not meant to do that. But now it evolves so much that, yeah, you see someone like another person from the community, I think he's insider still. But by far, he will be a MVP one day is Jeremy. The Windows on Arm, let's say for me is the Windows on Arm person go to, there's a lot of people on Microsoft that also ask him to test things and stuff like that. I'll get the full name. So Jeremy, sorry if I forgot. Yeah, that's the kind of thing where you ask, like, has anybody ever submitted his name? You know, it might be his. But it was submitted. So yeah, so now it's like Windows on Arm and Windows on Arm is kind of insider-ish still. So he's on the insider, but it will be like WSL. The moment Windows on Arm gets fully released and is no more just an insider channel, it will be an MVP. I mean, it's the go-to. He tries things, he shares things. And that's the most important part, independent of any MVP that I know. I don't know. I just know a few. That's what we were discussing just before also, but I don't know that much. But the ones that I know, and now thanks, I know you, it's like, it's exactly the same. We do share our knowledge. Don't be afraid to share. You have to start at some point. It will grow. It might not come from one day to another. Like, again, like I said, I became MVP 2020, like just after COVID. But I started playing with WSL in 2016, writing blogs in 2016, starting to speak about WSL in 2016, right? Four years. That's what he took. Just because the program was not like WSL was still not acknowledged, you never know. But at least I started at some point. Yeah. Right? Well, and the other thing, I thought you were going to go this direction too, is like, one thing is that we definitely want to share. For this is a great advice for anyone that's interested. If you're active in the community, which is, it's a key, you have to be active somewhere within the community. You don't have to be speaking at conferences around the world. Well, you know, Microsoft loves that, but you don't have to do that. There are MVPs. I say this all the time. There are MVPs that they never do anything with their face up on the screen. They are behind, I know too, that all they do are they're out on Microsoft Tech community answering questions, or they're out on some other forums. And so that's forum work. It's still, let's kind of talk about going back when the program was started in like 92, 93. That's kind of all that there was was, you were writing a book or you were in a forum. That was kind of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that now there's so many different ways that you can contribute. But yeah, if you're looking to get involved, start by going into Microsoft Tech community or any of these other forums. I have, hey, get involved with Techie Gurus, which I'm on the board for, write content for us there. But and just start answering questions. I know people that just make it part of their daily habit to log in the morning as we sit and we go through email first thing in the morning, they take 15, 20 minutes and they go look at the forums and try to answer one question. And if you make that part of your daily habit, that adds up very quickly. And Microsoft watches those forums very closely. Yeah. And that's a very, very good point because what I try to say to all the potentially community, let's say, ambassadorships or MVPs that I'm part of, but it's more like not that many, but I'm part of others is like, MVP recognize what you have done across the year. Like if it's your first time, it's what have you done since when you started? Was it like, and the great advice that you gave is like, if you start doing something that it's potentially daily or at least weekly, instruct yourself, learn about like your domain, is it new things? How can you share that? How can you share even local meetups? They are recognized by for the MVP program. So do your stuff and then you will get recognized. But something that some work, it works for some, but at least for me, what I always tell is like, be yourself, share. Microsoft or other programs will recognize you. But don't do something just thinking, okay, I want to be MVP. And once you are an MVP, because the way that you worked or you put your work on was just for this one timer. That's why suddenly you have some drops into MVP is the first year. Because like you said, you didn't have these, let's say, ethics of just being yourself and sharing. So if you want to be like one year, two years, I am four years, I see at least six on your wall. So it means that 12 times. Yeah, 12 times. It's not happening by chance. It's because you are putting your work on. And you are just, let's say, being like a good person in the community because you are sharing. And Microsoft, we recognize that. Yeah. Well, I agree. I think one of the difficult things for most people, and it was difficult for me for years too, is then keeping track of the things that you were doing. And it sounds like, hey, you're ringing your own bell. And I have jokingly, I have a tag on my blog that is, blatant self-promotion is the tag. And I label stuff around that where there's not an obvious category, but I want to talk about, hey, for the next quarter, here's the event. So I'm going to go speak at, here's links to them. I'll do that. And I'll tag it as blatant self-promotion. But what I actually do is I catalog everything in a monthly blog post of everything I've written, everything I've spoken, everything I've presented, everything I've created around there. And some people look at it just like, oh, hey, look at all this, look at me. It's like, no, well, one, it's good to keep track of that. But two, especially if you're trying to become an MVP, I mean, you need to, at some point, you get your name submitted. And for a short while, there was a, where you could self submit your name or a non, now it needs to be a Microsoft employee or an MVP or an RD that can submit you. But you then need to, the first thing you have to do is fill out the survey, which includes like, what have you done over the last year, the last 12 months? Yeah. And that's a good point. Like, we can, we can now, let's say, I was still in the, I needed some Microsoft, like 2020, I think it was still need some Microsoft sponsorship, like employee sponsorship. Hopefully, we had like the whole open source and WSL. So it was Aiden myself in 2020, then we had Lucy that joined us also from WSL perspective. And we still have like, couple ones that we are trying to get through also into the MVP, but see, like, we are small, like MVP, Microsoft is not the niche per se, right? But the cloud native is big, but it's still quite the niche, right? And then we have WSL inside of that, it's still even more niche. But at the end of the day, the moment that one person, in this case, it was Aiden, if one person can break through in your community, and again, you are working with these persons, you are sharing knowledge and stuff like that, they will help you. That's how the community of MVP at least works. And that's really what I'm really like, say proud to be part of first, but then really glad that I'm here, because I can meet other people that are just helping. Yep. No, great. It's, well, I mean, it's a great community. Again, you still have to put in the effort, you still have to do things, but it's the more that you can make those things that are eligible as contributions, just part of the regular your habits, the way that you work. I mean, I say this all the time, which is, look, the things that I do that got me into the program, I would do regardless of the program. I wasn't doing them to become an MVP. I was doing them because, you know, I'm a networking guy. I like meeting people, interviewing people, talking to people, learning about tech. I'm really passionate about this space. I'm also a Microsoft tech guy. Going back to, I'm trying to remember the year 92, I think, where I paid a lot of money to buy a machine to load 3.1, Windows 3.1. I had, I had a 286.40. I had to buy, pay like 800 bucks for the expanded memory to be able to load Windows. But yeah, but I mean, and that's, that's one, that's one thing that's like people around Microsoft, like I consider like, and that's why that's in my Twitter bio. I'm a Microsoft fan, like literally, and I'm not shocked to say it, even though where I work right now, because people, like my colleagues, they don't have any judgment around Microsoft. They even like, they know that's okay. They have some question. They can come ask me, actually. And Suze is self-promotion, sorry, but it's like, Suze is just working like closely also with Microsoft into the enterprise markets, in the Asia markets, right? So we are there. We are all partners. And sometimes people don't, like, if you, if you just look the person's debates kind of, you are missing the big picture. The big picture at the end of the day is like, we are all in tech. Tech is no more a niche, but tech is small. Everyone or every big company knows every big company kind of. So at the end of the day, be friendly to everyone. Believe me, you will just earn much more than just going like, oh, okay, oh, you are a Microsoft, oh, you are Linux, oh, you are Mac. Okay, whatsoever. We don't care. It's like, we are all in this same community. Yeah. Well, that, that's always true. I think whether you believe in karma or not, or not, you know, that's the, that idea of treat people well and, you know, they'll treat you well. And yeah, but I agree with you. Be kind. Be kind. Well, Nuna, I really appreciate your time today. And as you mentioned, you're very active out on Twitter. So make sure to have all of your, your handle that's out there, your, your blog, your company site, all that within the profile. So I really appreciate your time today. And nice to meet you again. Yeah. Thank you for having me and great, great initiative and initiative since years now. But like, I really like your format, your effort. So please keep doing it. And I will be learning about other MVPs for sure. And hopefully we'll see you next spring at the next MVP summit. Yeah, that's one of my missions is to go to Redmond. So You need to go. It is the best perk about being an MVP. It's just you can't replace the, the meetings and connections you make at that event. So Yeah, definitely.