 Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. So today, I'm delighted to introduce my guest Dr. Simi Sachdev. Simi is not only a really dear personal friend, but she is also the most brilliant consultant psychiatrist. She's actually a fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatry, so it tells you how brilliant she actually is. Simi deals with, she practices general psychiatry, but at the moment she is dealing with borderline personality disorder patients and Simi, I'd like to welcome you to our podcast today and tell you what a joy it is to have your expertise with us today. Thank you so much Sima. Actually, it's my privilege to be here with you. I have always been a big admirer of yours and to be actually being, you know, be sitting here and talking to you and talking about things. I think I'm the one who's privileged. Oh, this is so amazing. So everybody out there should know that we both love each other dearly, as you can tell. And this promises to be an amazing session. So Simi talking about your specialty where you're dealing with borderline personality disorders. Today, I want to actually speak to you specifically about the guilt and the shame that people feel around their sexuality around desire around arousal around feelings of pleasure. And what it does to their brain waves what does their mind when they feel like that. Do you come across a lot of people with this kind of problem in your work. Yes, I do and I think we'll have to categorize it a little bit. If you don't mind. We have the younger generation who have never had sex, maybe have sex for the first time feel the arousal, get intimate and then feel guilty about it. And you have the middle ones where they're not married but in a relationship, and they want to have the sexual relationship, but because of cultural taboos. They have restrictions and worries whether they should or they shouldn't do it. And then you have the married ones who might be quite happy with their partners and would want to either experiment a bit more. Or they might go in for an extramarital relationship. So it's a whole gamut of things that they're looking at when we talk about guilt and shame. It really is isn't it and the strange thing is of course it's the common denominator where it won't matter what each group you look at because at every age this has been so fed into our brains that it's bad. It's a dirty thing. And honestly the people writing into me will write about everything and they'll say things like we like to use bad language during our love making it gets us very excited. Is that a bad thing to do. Are we doing something wrong or somebody will say I have such and such fantasy with my husband we like to do it, but is that sinful is that against God. He even had one girl right to me and I know I laughed about this because I, it was the way that it was worded but it made me also feel really sad because she said to me. So she's quite young she's not yet married and she said, is it okay to be kissing somebody because I don't want to do something wrong because I truly love God. And I thought, it's okay you can kiss somebody God is not going to mind. And this is what surprises me a lot. Maybe I might be speaking a more in context of the Indian religion Indian culture. But if you were to look back into history mythology and you are the expert in that. If you look at any of our temples which show the gods, the female and the male God together, and the postures that they're shown in are so much more expressive than what our society has become now, because of years of cultural suppression in some ways. And that's a really good term actually cultural suppression, because our culture has been suppressed and we are now living through somebody else's cultural viewpoint aren't we. Absolutely. And I think there's also this a lot of misinterpretation of religious texts, and I just don't mean one of the religions I mean all of the religions, they are sort of going more towards sub subjugation of the woman, rather than empowerment of the woman. And that is why I always feel that women are the ones who feel a lot for guilt, when it comes to sexuality as compared to the men, because it is accepted that the men can be. Wander from the marriage, and the woman will be blamed for it because she did not provide what he wanted at home. So it is culturally accepted to do that. It is okay for a man to have sex before marriage, but it's not okay for a woman to do the same thing. And youngsters believe that oh, if this girl is kissing me she's easily available. Whereas, do I want somebody who's willing to do that, or do I some want somebody who's more homely later on. So there's a, there's a lot of cultural implications religious implications that go with all of these things. Yeah, and it's terrible the double standards are absolutely awful. So, let's start with the older age group first I'll tell you why because I recently was part of a panel for the Anglia Ruskin University, hosted by the British Science Festival, which said, sex never gets basically talking about the fact that the for people as they get older in years, how beneficial it is for them to continue to be sexually active or to continue to enjoy pleasure and desire and intimacy, because it's great for them at so many different levels. But, you know, you were saying that there's a lot of, there's still a lot of problems attached to that there's all this guilt still that comes with it. So yes, so what I've noticed is that, you know, initially when you get married, you are trying to sort of get to know each other fit into a kind of a mold. You're trying to have a life setting up your life together as a couple, then you have children, you're trying to be a couple with children and you're more of a mother and father. And then it's only later on that you are more able to look at intimacy in a different fashion. What you actually find is that couples at times quite struggle, especially when the children are not there anymore to look at each other in that sexual way because you almost have a few years where sex has not been such an important part of life. Suddenly you want to reinvent the whole thing. And at that point you revisit some of the things you might have wanted to as a youngster or as a young couple. And you wonder whether should we think about these things now. And should I tell my partner about this now that this is what I want to be done or this is what I like. And people struggle with it a lot because as as again it's all about how we have been brought up in our culture to not express sexuality sexual gratification as an acceptable means of fulfillment. Particularly by the women, particularly by the women that is right. And I think even men to some extent like, for example, somebody might, a guy might be watching porn for example because he likes it. And he might want to watch porn with his wife, which is absolutely acceptable. But he might not feel comfortable asking his wife to do so. And, you know, people coming together sexually or in an intimate fashion when they're older is so looked down upon. I always remember that film called but hi ho. It's a much older lady gets pregnant absolutely everybody's like oh my God you know that class of people and so on it's just considered such a bad thing so just my knowledge about mythology and mythological words is not very good. But you know, one, once a person gets older it is called one of us. Yes, so one process when you are supposed to give up any. Everything, everything exactly and and and it is expected that by the time you're 6065 you would be at that stage. So you're not supposed to have these feelings which I think is absolutely ridiculous. Not everybody has to follow those feelings that that are there. People can be at different stages in their lives. And what's worse, I think is that as under the, you know, the lady and with the doctor and with the madame who I do this with otherwise. As she was saying a couple of times that as men get older a lot of times their sexual capacity can diminish a little bit. We found from the emails that come to us that a lot of women say, I'm trying to approach my husband he can't do very much so instead of saying, I can't do this but we could try something else. It's easier to put her down and make her feel guilty about even asking for a sexual context or you know some kind of intimacy because then he has to put himself out and say well oh actually I can't do this and my arousal is not that strong anymore. And yes, and that is that is very true. And that tends to happen I think women tend to discover their sexuality much later in life, as compared to men. And I think it's a lot of experimentation. And then there's this whole taboo around masturbation, while men are still it's acceptable for the men to masturbate but it is not acceptable for a woman to masturbate. Because women discover their own bodies and they are what brings them pleasure. They want to express that to their partner but then again there's this whole thing about whether can I or can I not. So, you know, that's where the struggle is and like you rightly said that men might change how they go on as they get older. So in this experience women find their sexuality later and enjoy it a lot more later and men do it a lot earlier. So there is that kind of discrepancy. And then if both the partners are able to talk about it, you can still have sexual intimacy without intercourse. It doesn't have to be about intercourse. I've said this over and over again that it's not about penetration, that there are so many different ways of coming together and being together but this is also another one of those myths that's been fed into our brain that this is what it is. It starts with this, it finishes with this and that's it. So, anything outside of that box becomes something to feel guilty about and be fearful about. And just before we move on to the next age group, what is your advice to me for the slightly older age group of people listening in what is, I mean, and I'm sure that this advice extends to other age groups as well but is there something that you can suggest to help people get past their, their guilt, their fear, their hesitation. I think the most important thing is communication, being able to be very open and honest. And I think that is what we all struggle with, that, you know, if a woman is not feeling in a mood but the man is, and that the woman feels obliged that I have to do it, rather than saying no today I don't feel like it, or vice versa as well. So I think communication is the key, especially in the later age group because your desires might not be at the same level and let's not forget that women have their menopause and men have, we don't have anything called as a male menopause as such, but their libido also gets affected as they grow older. So communication is very, very important that you talk to each other, you are able to communicate to each other what you're feeling, what you want. And I think that solidifies the relationship even further. Yeah, I agree. And I think that I always find that I say to people that, okay, you know, if you feel that it's something that you and your partner you and your husband or you and your wife are doing together can centrally one stop feeling guilty about it. And secondly, if you feel that somebody else might judge you for it. Don't tell somebody on the outside. Yes, absolutely. And intimacy anyways has to be a very personal thing. You never need to discuss it outside of besides the two people that you are. Of course, younger people tend to do it because it gives them a sense of empowerment. They can show off. But when you're in the older category, you don't need that kind of validation. Yes, that was what I was looking for. Yeah, I think that so I definitely agree with you that instead of feeling guilty. Actually, it's something that people should be doing. We've always said that pleasure, sexual pleasure intimacy is it should be like chocolate you should be able to enjoy for your entire life. But you don't enjoy it if you really enjoy it. You know, it's like you don't like chocolate you're not going to want to eat it. So, shall I just interrupt a little bit and sort of split it into guilt and shame. So, guilt comes when you are trying to judge yourself by somebody else's standards or the societal standards, and shame comes in when you have a certain belief, and you are going against that belief as well. Okay, you feel shameful about it. So, it's a very complicated dynamics and then you have guilt and shame together, which is even more complex to deal with. Oh my God, yeah, I never thought of it like that. Yes, so shame is when you're judging yourself by your beliefs or what you think that society has created around you as beliefs. So, if they have said, I mean, like so many people write to us and say, if I've been to the temple in the morning, is it okay to have sex with my wife in the evening. Something somebody has put in your head that if it's a festival or you've been to a prayer meeting that you shouldn't be with your partner in the evening, you're married. It's internal internalized so much by all of us. Like, I mean I still know people in this country who have been born and brought up in India and the children are here. And they still believe that when they are on their periods, they should not go to the temple. They should not touch religious books. And I mean, for me that that's my bug bear but that we will revisit some other time. But it is something that has been internalized by us, all of us to such a large extent, you know, so that's where the shame comes from, and the guilt comes from the fact that what if somebody else comes to know about it. Because it's considered such a dirty thing. So instead of saying yes this would be wonderful. It's considered such a dirty thing that you don't want other people to know and it's so complex like you said it's just, it's like you're in a little world pool this is one thing that would make you feel, it should make you feel amazing. It should drop your stress levels, it should make you feel good about yourself and energized but instead we bury ourselves in the layers of guilt and shame and the complexities around it and make it worse for ourselves. Absolutely. Okay, so moving on to the slightly younger age group, the middle age group. Do they have it any easier. It depends. So, let's look at it in two different ways, because Indian society, if you're focusing more on Indians is changing very rapidly. We are seeing more live in relationships. We are seeing more love marriages that don't end up working out. We are seeing arranged marriages that do work out or don't work out. And if you look at all of these different kinds of dynamics that we have the sexuality of all these dynamics is very different. So in a live in relationship, that is an aspect of sexuality that goes along with the live in relationship. So that these are people, this is more in cosmopolitan cities I would say I could be wrong because I haven't been to India in a long time. So I may be wrong it might be happening in in villages and smaller cities as well. My experience is more about cosmopolitan cities, and people are living in a lot more than they used to, when I was a youngster I would say, and there is two parts to it then. Some people accept living together absolutely alright, whereas there are other people who are completely against it. So you might find that these kind of people would have difficulty even renting a flat in place like because they're not married. So that's one of it. Then let's go on to the love marriage so you find somebody you are attracted to them. Both the parents agree you get married, and it doesn't end up being the dream that you had, especially if you have not had sex before marriage. After marriage you might discover that it isn't what you expected it to be. It could be great, or it might not be that great. What do you do then. And then you have the third part where you have the arranged marriage where you don't know each other at home. And there's an expectation that on the first night the husband will have sex with his wife on the first night. And how difficult is that? I would say for both the partners. I will not say it's only for the woman, but there's an expectation that it has to take place. And I don't know whether you're aware, but in olden days they would look at the bed sheets to see the signs of virginity. I think that a lot of people still do that. I hate to say this, but there is still this myth that they have to check for the blood on the bed sheet. But unfortunately in all of this, like you said the middling range, I find that, I mean from personal experience from just people writing in. This is the group that seems to be going through the biggest amount of problems around guilt and shame and fear. Yes. Because for some reason, so like you said, marriage doesn't work out you're single and you have a child. So as a single parent, society expects that you won't have any kind of sexual feelings at all. Absolutely. And then you have a lot of women feeling very guilty because it's like, oh my God, I really want to go out. I really want to have a little bit of sex. I feel like I really want a little bit of pleasure. But what will people say? Am I doing a bad thing? Am I setting a bad example for my children? We have all of that. So how does one deal with that? I mean, what would you say if one of those people walked into your clinic? I would like to give a very simplistic reply, but it is never that simple. Because it is not just years of cultural conditioning. It is centuries of cultural conditioning that we have to fight. And I am very open about my views about sexuality and my view is you don't have to have a committed relationship to have sex. It is absolutely fine to have a one night stand. It is absolutely fine. If it works for you, you have a kid, you don't want to be in a committed relationship. You want to have a one night stand, you find somebody attractive in a pub, you have that one night stand and that's absolutely fine. Or you might want to look for a new relationship and you want a commitment in a new relationship, which is also absolutely fine. So what about what works for you as a person? Whether you want the sexual connection, whether you want the emotional and sexual connection, or you might even just want the emotional connection without so much emphasis on the sex. Yeah. Because sometimes you want more companionship rather than sexuality. Sometimes you want a mixture of both. And sometimes you just want to have sex, which is all right. But I guess when the moment you say, oh, I just want to have sex, suddenly for some reason, all the flashing lights go up. I think that particularly with women, we tend to talk to our friends more. So I'm not sure how guys are, whether they will go and chat about their emotions with their male friends. I know that as women, we tend to talk to our friends a lot. And I know that if a woman comes along and says to her group of friends about, oh, I really fancy so and so I want to go out, etc. that'll be fine. The moment she says, I really just want a couple of one nightstands just to get back in the game. You can see the judgment going up. And these are the women who are writing in and saying, I feel so guilty. Am I doing something wrong? Am I doing something bad? I think they need to change the group of friends. Or maybe we need to, maybe we need to educate the group of friends. Absolutely, absolutely listening. Yes, that I mean, I don't know why people always club sexuality and love and emotion together. Why can't people accept that they can be two separate things in itself. I think women tend to be more judgmental than anybody else about other women. Unfortunately, that is such a sad truth. It is. And while they might be best of friends, and they would want that person to get married or get into a relationship, but when it comes to talking about a one night stand, they will have double standards. Yeah. But shame comes up for the woman who is in that position, because she's talking about something that she really wants. But the situation is such that she's going to be judged. She's going to be judged not only that. The other issue is that, you know, it takes a lot of guts to say that this is what I want. I don't want anything more than this. And there's an expectation that women should not be wanting only sex. So she's already judging herself for it. So she's already feeling shameful about it. And then she talks to somebody else who makes her feel guilty about it. And the fact that having wanting sex for sex sake is fine. Yes, but we are made to believe that it isn't. Yes, exactly. And I just think, you know, every time we talk about this, it's almost like going around in circles you keep saying, it's okay, it's all right. It's okay to actually have that desire there is no reason why you shouldn't. Yes, it comes back to it every single time, but is it all right. Oh, but so and so will think this over what will I answer back, you know, it's just, it's, but I think we are so culturally conditioned to think about the society to think about what other people think about us as women and possibly some men too. Especially when you are in a gay or a lesbian relationship, you are just so culturally conditioned to think that it is wrong. It does not seem to separate that sex is a natural physiological desire, whereas love emotions are something completely different. And both of them do not always have to match. Sometimes you might find that some people might find that they find a more emotional connection with somebody else rather than their partner, and they might have a perfectly lovely loving sexual relationship with their partner, or vice versa, where they will have a very emotionally satisfying relationship with their partner, but the sexual satisfaction might come from somewhere else. Is it infidelity, emotional infidelity, physical infidelity, what do you call it, you know, there are various terms that we give it that trying to justify what we are feeling. I think we always refer to that as sort of changing the contract, you know, because when you have two people who are together, who feel that if this is how they want to be like the partner that you're with, might be the person that you're emotionally attached to but the sex is better with somebody else and you really want that fulfilling sex. Then, instead of going behind somebody's back, you should really have that as an open conversation. In a lot of the modern marriages I find people are a little bit more open to it, not everybody obviously, a little bit more open to it, but in terms of somebody who is not married, let's say you're single. And you have a committed relationship with somebody who is like a boyfriend, a partner, whatever you want to call it. And even over there, there is this guilt because, like I said, you know, with one person it may be that you said, I find it acceptable if somebody says, I feel very close to this person with my partner the sex is great but my emotionally I want to go to this person for, for my emotional needs. And that still is acceptable but if it is the other way around. And then people feeling guilty, is it their own thing to do, is it the right thing to do. And you know what, it's not just, I was just thinking of an incident so I was watching you and I both live over here in the UK. I was watching one of the Apollo Theater comedy, stand up comedy shows, and there was this particular UK comedian talking about going out at night and meeting this woman in a pub, in a club, sorry not in a pub. And it's two o'clock at night and then he says in the middle of his routine. And he discovers that she's got a little child that she's got like a four or five year old kid. And he's like, what the hell was this woman doing out here in the middle of a club picking up a man at two o'clock at night. Why isn't she there with her child. And you know I still remember cringing and the entire audience was laughing and say yeah that's right what the hell is she doing out here. I was thinking my God. It's not just that it's culturally embedded in us, but we reiterate it, we make sure that that identity never changes so that guilt and shame never goes away. We are so judgmental. We are just, and I mean, like you said that this was a stand up comedian in UK. I was thinking I was talking more from an Indian perspective, but it exists over here as well. And, and again, I think there's also this sort of a perception I could be wrong. Because if a woman is single and has a child, there's almost a feeling that she will be more available. If you know, in that sense, yeah, yeah, that she will not want to be desperate. Yeah, yeah, which is very unfortunate because being single is not something somebody chooses to be it happens, life happens, it could be dead, it could be divorced, it could be a bad relationship. You walk out of it, it takes a lot of courage to do that. And after that you're being judged for being the single parent as well. Yeah, it's just, it's such a messy like I said you know this is a session I've been wanting to do with you for a long time because it's just so deeply ingrained the guilt and the shame and the fear is so deeply ingrained. And I just feel that the more we talk about it, the more it brings it to people's forefront of their mind, and hopefully it'll start to normalize things. And these conversations are so so important. So now let's move on to the younger lot. Now, I know that as you're growing up when you're younger, you know, your hormones are changing the hormones are up. Excitement is there the blood is up come on we've all been young at one point and we know how exciting things can be. And the fact that the guilt and the shame that is put upon everybody. They made to feel that they're doing the wrong thing. How can we help to change that mindset and this is literally I had this young man right to me so this is they were a youngish couple in a living relationship. And he wrote to me saying that his girlfriend had asked him during their sexual experience. She said to him that the next time she wants to try something called a facial finish, which is where she wants the the boyfriend to come on her face directly. And he wrote to me saying, I'm horrified that you know girls are watching porn and coming away with all these wrong ideas and you should try and explain to women that they shouldn't do things like this I would never want to do this because it's so demeaning to her. And my first reaction was to think, oh he's being so caring and then I, you know as soon as that suggestion settled in I thought, no, he's being an absolute control freak because she said she's obviously picked up the courage to say exactly what she would like and she's been made to feel that she's doing something bad. Yes. And I think that's where the problem is because, again, we did not provide our youngsters with adequate sex education adequate understanding, and the whole idea of consent and respect, which, especially being a mother of boys, I think is very very important that they understand that it's consent and it is respect and that that is what has to be communicated as Indian parents I think we don't talk enough about sexuality. We sort of let it be that they will get the education from their friends they'll get it from school the school is doing sexual education let them handle it that way. And watch porn, which we then complain about and say, Oh, terrible, but yeah, they'll go and see it over there. Yeah, exactly. And I think we are guilty in some ways as parents for not having a very frank conversation. And like, for example, I would ask my husband to have that conversation with my youngster, whether I could just as easily have it, but he will not feel as comfortable talking to me about it. Yeah, I don't know I think we've always had this thing and yet I find. Yeah, it's just really difficult for parents, a lot of parents to do that. Yeah. My concern always is that then they learn things from their friends, which might not be the right thing at all because the friends might be talking in a very disparaging way about another girl in the same group that they are in. And that would then be accepted as a norm because this is the macho guy in the group who is having sex with this person, and then he's talking about how easily she is available and then it just becomes a norm. And that's where the lack of respect comes in then. And I think that there's no way of creating the narrative by not actually having this conversation. Although I have to say that the sex said that they teach in schools is fairly useless because they basically point out the different parts of the body and they say, this is what goes into this. Yes, and I just think that there's so much more to sex I mean, I think that there should be classes on emotions and absolutely I completely agree with you because as a teenager. You're dealing with your physical changes that you go through, but you start having crushes, or you start having emotions at 1415 16 years you have crushes, and you don't know how to handle it. Nobody knows how to handle it. You don't want to tell your parents about it. You're not able to tell the person that you have a crush about it. And when things don't work out, you feel miserable desperate. And if you indulge in that for whatever reason you feel guilty and you feel ashamed that, oh my God, why did I do it. It's just like a Yes, yeah, yeah. So I find that this is one of the leading causes it seems to be one of the leading causes of mental health. You know, bad mental health poor mental health through this, this whole idea of sort of suppressing your desires, feeling guilty about it because it's so natural. We think about it we all feel guilty about we all think about it we, we all feel it, we all want to do it, and then the guilt creeps in, and then you start feeling shit about yourself. And especially as a youngster, you tend to feel it a lot more, because you've got facial hair you've got pimples, you've got, you know, generally for a girl. She might not have breasts, or she might have two big breasts, and you know the whole thing about how I look is so important. And when there is rejection at that point, it just makes it even more significant. Because suddenly it is not just what you were thinking, but somebody has just said what you were thinking is right. About all your, your so called bad points, yeah. Yeah, so you have low self esteem as you're growing up. Every teenager goes through that identity crisis, and then somebody doesn't support you. So that reaffirms that I'm not good enough. Yeah. And this is something that you carry on for the rest of your life. Absolutely. And it will impact your sexual relationships for the rest of your life. Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that is why it's very important to talk about emotions, not just sexual education, but about emotional education that, you know, I think schools are not doing enough of that. And we are not writing enough about it. Media is not doing enough about it to normalize the fact that you can feel attracted as a youngster to somebody else. It's normal. It is normal to not be accepted, and it is normal to be accepted as well. I mean, of course they are television series will show some aspects of these kind of things, but not everybody watches those series. No. And I think they're very far removed from reality most of the time. Yeah. So there is always, I mean, TV shows are all about perfectness in that sense, or imperfectly perfect in some sense. And there's always, there's always like a resolution by the end of that half hour episode. Exactly. So it really isn't very real. And life doesn't have that resolution most of the times. But I liked what you said that, you know, that the emotional education has to include not only the fact that you'll have infatuations and crushes, and that it's okay to not be accepted. It's very normal that that desire will not be reciprocated. And I think if we could make people understand that it won't stop the hurt, but it'll stop the long term trauma. And I think we all have to accept. I mean, you have to accept. I have to accept. We've had our crushes in our days. And we got over them, and we went on with life and everything else. But a couple of you have left very deep scars still. So let's not go into that. But what I'm saying is we don't, even after that, we don't want our children to go through that. Whereas that is a fact of life. Every child will experience it. But we still want to put cotton wool around them and make sure they never feel like that. But it's not going to happen. So the only thing you can do is be present for them. So that you can hold their hand when they're going through that kind of motion. I find a lot of young girls who write to me say, Oh, you know, I really like so and so, but I don't ever dare tell my mom, my mom will kill me if she finds out. Or, you know, my brother found out that I was in a relationship and now he's calling me names and I'm thinking, my God, it's the most natural thing in the world to feel like that. So just be there for your child. They will otherwise turn to somebody else on the outside, which could be a lot more detrimental. And absolutely, it can create a lot of borderline personality disorders. Yes, absolutely. And that is why I mean I would always tell every parent that as your child grows older, they will become more and more reclusive. But still, you have to still be the one going into the bedroom, saying the good nights, giving them a hug and a cuddle, asking about their school day, it might be they'll say everything is okay. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, it was fine. You know, that's what teenagers do. You still have to go in there and reiterate that you are there, that if there's anything that comes their way that they are scared about that they don't feel they can handle, you are going to step in, and you will help them with it. So you will not change it for them, you will help them deal with it. You empower them. You empower them. You don't do it for them. You empower them to do it themselves. Just to know that you have someone that you can turn to it's a huge, huge thing. I mean the fact that you know people write to me who is like a disembodied voice where they can't go to their own parents for the same thing. I think it's really sad, but the amount of guilt and the amount of shame and the amount of fear that people feel for feeling arousal, forget about doing anything just for feeling the arousal. It is so sad to think how many people out there are going through the exact same thing, and they have no one to turn to, and they're still being made to feel that what they're doing is wrong. So I think if you look at it, you know, like as teenagers, especially if you look at boys, they would have morning ejaculations, which is a very normal thing. They don't know it's normal. They will feel guilty about it. They might feel aroused looking at a girl, and then that will come with a guilt. Oh my God, what am I doing? So it has to be normalized. These things are normal. Yeah. So tell me something, Simi, as we sign off, is there some kind of advice that you'd like to leave everybody with around how to shed the shame or the guilt? So one little practical piece of advice that you could give everyone. Talk, talk, communicate. Talk to the person that you care about, whether it is a father or a son, mother or a son, mother or a daughter, father or a daughter, whether romantic relationships, partners, lovers, husbands, wives, older people who are parents, just communicate. Talk frankly. I think we don't talk enough in our culture. Yeah, I think that a lot of the guilt that we take on is actually in our head. If they did talk to somebody, maybe the other person won't even be judging them in quite the same way. And it might be normalized. Yeah, because somebody else will say, oh, even I had thought the same thing. I mean, if I were to say, oh, I find everything Russian really hot. And you say, oh, of course I do too. And then it's all normal. It's fine to all go at him, isn't it? I don't love it, but just an example, okay. I mean, I could go for George Clooney as well, but that's another matter altogether. But it's, it's, I'm just giving an example that it's okay to fantasize about or sort of look at celebrities and think, oh, they're so hot. Whereas, when you bring it down to a normative level, it suddenly doesn't seem right. When you bring it down to real life, suddenly it's like, no, no, no, this is all bad. But if it's a celebrity on a screen, it's okay. Yeah. So, yeah, great advice. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. You never know when the other person suddenly responds and says, that's perfectly normal. And suddenly your guilt would dissipate. I think that's really great advice. I do hope that everybody listening out there will take this home with them, and they will actually try it. And I really, really hope that after having listened to Dr. Semi such, Dave, that it is something that you will take on board and help yourself with because even if you can help yourself 5% to reduce that guilt and shame within you, you will have reduced at least 50% of your stress levels. It's quite incredible the way that that particular formula works. Absolutely. Semi, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for asking me to join. So, everybody out there, I hope that you've enjoyed listening. I hope you found it useful. And if you have, do please comment, like, subscribe. I am on info.seema.anand at gmail.com, send your questions in as always. And Semi is on, in case you need to get in touch with her for either consultation or for advice, she is on doc Semi, which is spelled D O C S I M M I at gmail.com but don't worry if you don't because it'll be in the description below. Take care of yourselves. There's still the threat of COVID out there stay safe, stay very careful, and we will see you over here again next week. Bye bye.