 Hi, good evening, welcome. Good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are joining us from and today I'm going to talk to you about a very interesting version of fiction, which is called mythological fiction. And I have with me, Anand Neelakantan, and he's going to also talk about his latest book, Women of Balmiki. I tweeted about it. So those of you who are interested, thank you so much for joining in. And I'm going to also bring up Anand onto the screen. So without any further ado, do tell us where you are joining us from and if you have any questions, please do tell us what those questions are and Anand will be happy to answer those. Anand, welcome to the show. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you Abhijit, thank you. I just made it. I just made it, it was a race against time. I'm not able to hear you. Are you able to hear me now? No, your voice is cutting off once in a while. Okay, so, okay, so, well, we'll hope that the internet connection gets a little better. I just wanted to, you know, sort of really show you the book. I love the cover. By the way, the cover design is great. And are you excited about the launch of the new book, Anand? Definitely. Actually, this week I had two books coming out. One is this and other one was in Audible, that is, many Ramayana's, many stories, many lessons. So both had come out together, both from Amazon, Amazon Westland and Amazon Audible. Oh, wow. So congratulations. Both based on Ramayana. Thank you. So, you know, when they say that, you know, when you talk about mythology and fiction, what is the difference and you're sort of writing at the cusp of both. What does that really mean? I mean, you know, how do you sort of go about creating what is fact, what is fiction? Tell me about that. I don't know who coined the term mythological fiction. I don't know what it is. I don't think anywhere outside India such a genre exists. See, what we do is just retelling of mythology in our own way. But what I do especially, I try to connect it with the contemporary times. Not that the story is set in that world, the story is set in Lanka, the story is set in Kishkindha and all, or in Hastinapura. But the problems which I deal with, they are very contemporary. So if I'm writing Balmugi's women, they are the problems of today. They are not the problems of then, but I'm seeing it from the perspective of some of the characters. And when you say, you know, you are trying to sort of take that whole concept, it is set in Lanka or it's set in Kishkindha. You've also written about Bali, Sugriva, various kinds of... You've talked about the people who are defeated and I want to spend a little bit of time on that. But before we get into all this, I want to inquire, you know, what was your childhood like? Where did you grow up and where was this fascination with mythology? How did that happen? See, I am from Kochin, in the outskirts of Kochin. Now it is part of the city, Thiruponitra, the place is called. It has a lot of temples. And it's a temple town with a very old music college and arts college where Eshudas and all had studied. It has the culture of Kathakali and all the Otandulla and all the traditional classical arts forms of Kerala, which all deal with our Puranas. So growing up in that kind of town, in that atmosphere, this kind of seeped in. It is not that I had to go back to research something and everything. This is a part of life, part and parcel of the life. My father was a good storyteller in a very traditional way. He used to tell stories, a lot of people used to listen. So this was for me, what it was, I started seeing the story from various characters and angels. So I started exploring the same Ramayana and Mahabharata from various sides. Like Ravana's side, Bali's side, Sita's side in the television series which I did, Sia K. Ram. Then from Hanuman's side in Mahabali Hanuman, again another television series which I had written. And then in Valmiki's women, all the marginalized women like Tadaka, Shurpanaka, that's what it is dealing with, Mantara. So it is their story, their point of view and other things which I am going with. Same thing I am approaching from different angles and it gives a totally different story. And with Ajaya series I did it from Duryodhanath's Mahabharata. Except the Bahubali for which I wrote, let me clarify one thing. Bahubali film was written by, Bahubali film stories by Vijendra Prasad. Bahubali screenplays by S.S. Rajamuli. My job as a part of the team was to write the backstory for it which came out as novels. So I have written which is coming now as a Netflix series because it is a huge three-book series where the entire Bahubali world backstories were created. So that's my contribution to Bahubali which now is becoming a Netflix series, all the three books. That is Kuna Maheshwati, Chaturanga and Raisa Afshagokami, the first one. And I told it from the reverse order. So in the story ends, my story ends where the film begins. So there could be some contribution when you say Bahubali author. I am a part of it. Film story was written by Vijendra Prasad. The entire backstory and the Netflix series is written by me, all the three books and the screenplay was written by S.S. Rajamuli. Perfect. So let's sort of, you know, you talked to me about your childhood of your father being a great storyteller. And talk to me about a story that you, the earliest recollection of a story that really impacted you, which you heard from your father, you know, the narration. And, you know, something that stayed with you and which perhaps resulted in your really writing about the marginalized characters some sense. No, my family, father was very traditional storytelling. Only thing is that he was so traditional that the debate is allowed. You know, the entire Indian tradition is about debate. Nothing should be accepted on face value. There is no commandments that this is right or wrong in a very traditional Hindu family, if you really see. If you see the entire Upanishads are debate, entire Gita is debate. Nothing is like a commandment. So what he used to tell is that even if I tell some story, use your rationality and try to understand yourself. So even the concept of God is about Ishta Devada and the concept of Dharma is for Dharma. That is you don't Dharma ask yourself. So this is how I was taught the religion or other things. So there is no dogma as such. There is no right or wrong as such. It was more about understanding it or trying to understand it because no one can understand it completely, trying to understand it. So all the stories which he has told and what I collected during my last 30-40 years of this journey, that came as many Ramayana's, many lessons in Audible and Valmiji's Women is a part of which I had written as a book. So when I think about Valmiki's Women, you've actually talked about a couple of different people, Bhumeja, Shanta, Mantra, Tataka and Meenakshi. So those are the five stories that you've talked about. And how do you go about picking a character, who you are going to base a story on? How do you then go about researching that particular character? Two things, picking a character in all my books, even though not in my television shows, all my books what I have done is I have gone ahead with the vanquished or the marginalized and seen the entire story from their perspective. The last book, Asura, was from Ravana's perspective and Ajaya was from Duryodhanas and Ekulabiyas and Karnas and Ashwathama's perspective and Jaira, the one, the hunter who killed Krishna, Lord Krishna. And Vanara was from Bali's perspective, Bali and Tara's perspective. So similarly, when I am selecting the women, this is a part of the series, Valmiki's Women. I will be coming up with Vyasa's Women also, the same publisher. So that will be like, I'll be taking not the so well-known characters because they deserve a whole novel like Asura, their entire Ravana deserved a novel. But these short stories I pick up like Mantra, so these are marginalized characters and who is Mantra if you really see for me? Mantra is made in our own house. How will they be seeing us? I am really talking about a kind of, actually there is a class difference existing, whether we accept it or not. We may think of ourselves as kind, compassionate and all. But many a places I have found that the marginalized staff in an apartment, I live in Mumbai, they sometimes have perhaps a separate lift, they have a separate, many builders, Adouda is saying that separate servants room and separate servants entrance, separate servants bathroom. We don't even feel odd, India as a society doesn't even feel odd. So where are these roots? Where have these come from? Where did the caste system originate? Because if you see the Catherine Soket's famous book The Help or the film which came in that, the entire theme was about the black maids, they being given a separate toilet. That became such a big issue there. Here for generations we have been doing it, I am not talking even about the overt caste systems which exist even now in many of the villages, but people get lynched, killed and all. In our sophisticated home, in our homes of the so called intellectual, advocated upper middle class, without even being aware of, we are passing on this kind of discrimination to our children. I am not saying everyone because I am sure there will be exceptions. Most of the homes, the servants have a separate plate, perhaps separate dinner plate if they are a stay alone servant, they have a separate bathroom. Not many houses I have seen them sitting in the sofas or on the same dining table. We don't even, it's so normalized that we don't even think about it many a time. So when I think about Mantra, I think like that. If it is so now, how it would have been then? Not because any of the characters who are treating her like that are evil per se. There are, they don't even observe it. It has become so normalized. So like that I picked up each character. Mantra, who is Tataka? Tataka, when you see it comes from the word of many say Raksasa, but she has an Aksha lineage. Akshas or Raksasas both come from the root. Raksasa comes from the root of Raksas or the one who protects. So the moment you start thinking Tataka as somebody who is protecting the forest, who doesn't want anyone to come there and do sacrifices of animals. And that is why she is stopping the sacrifices. The entire story takes a different perspective. You are trying to impose your worldview on us. Just like how we are trying to so-called civilize and trying to bring development to places of the so-called tribals and saying that this is the right way of life. So it comes out as some other social problems now. At that time it would have come out as some other problem. Just like in Mahabharata, the Gandiva Prastha was burned to build for what? For development. For the developer it was built. Indra Prastha was built, if you think it like that. So all the Nagas and everything, flying, running, swimming were shot and consumed by fire so that a new city can be developed. Are we finding the resonance of it now? That is how Ramayana and Mahabharata become relevant. So I pick up characters like that. Same way with Shurpanaka. Sorry, I interrupted. Tell me about Shurpanaka. Shurpanaka is also same. Imagine this. Shurpanaka, I am just telling a perspective. I am not saying this is right or not. Shurpanaka is in Shurpanaka's culture where she grew up. The women are free to choose whoever they want to marry or have free sex. So she goes and asks the men. What is wrong in that? She finds attractive that whether she can marry. Now in many Ramayanas it comes that she tries to attack Sita. But in the same Ramayana, Sita is considered as the avatar of Lakshmi. When an ordinary woman is attacking her, what should be the reaction? Suppose a woman, you are stronger than, physically stronger I mean, than a woman. A woman attacks you. What is the normal reaction of ordinary people? They may restrain her, they may stop her, tie her up perhaps. Who will chop the nose? And in many Ramayanas, the breast. So what sort of society we are talking about? The God is silent when his brother is doing that. This when you hear it for the first time as a child, it is a shock. Why it is so? Unless if religion is imposed on you by the traditional parents saying that this is right and this is God and she is a demoness and her nose can be chopped, then that's different. But why did Valmiji write that? He could have just ignored it. He could have said that no it didn't happen, they just restrained. He told it as such. Why? Because Indian storytelling traditionally, not the TV storytelling, not even the medieval Bhaktiara storytelling which gave into prominence but the real Sanskrit or older, older languages like Tamil or Kannada or Malayalam or Telugu, the classical language storytelling, they are more bold in their approach and they show as such what it is. So the purpose of these Dharmashastras is to debate, not to impose. You have to arrive at your own conclusion what is right and what is wrong and the purpose is not about good versus evil which I have told in many interviews. Good versus evil is a very western concept which perhaps due to the contact especially after the inversions with the contact with the Middle Eastern Abrahamic religion civilization, we started getting into that. That's when Girdhapurana and all were written, the concept of hell and all came. Until then the Dharmashastra is all about karma and karmavela and the Dharma is not defined at all. In Mahabharata Ji's Bhishma himself says, concept of Dharma is so obscure that it lives in the caves, in the darkness. What is Dharma? Krishna in Gita says it's about Svadharma, you had to follow the Svadharma. There is no total Dharma of everyone, one Dharma which was taught. Whatever you define for yourself. Even the God, you can reject God, that method is also accepted, Buddha did that, Charwaga did that. Because that is the truth you are reaching, that is your Dharma, your path. The only thing they were concerned about is life is all about choices, the action you do on those choices and the reaction on that. It doesn't spare whether you are the avatar of God or whether you are a demon or whether you are an Akshasa or a Manushya or whatever way they called. Entire Buddha's Jadaga tale where he takes various lives as different creatures, different animals. This is what he is underlining. So until say the Bhakti era which started with the Muslim invasion, coincided with the Muslim invasion or slightly before that, 100 years before that. Until then all the Dharma Shastras, Nidhi Shastras, whether it is in the Tamil classics or in the Sanskrit classics, they are all about your choices. That is why Valmiki or Vyasa didn't hide any of the flaws of Rama or Krishna. Why flaws? Because they are coming as avatar, human avatar. So when you are human you will have flaws. That is the greatest lesson from that. So when Rama kills Bali by shooting him behind a tree, there is a clash of Dharma which Valmiki exposes it through Bali. And many other great authors also exposes it through Bali. And he asks Rama, why did you kill me? So Rama says, I killed you because you took your brother's wife by force, Tara. But actually Bali says, actually he tried to cheat me and he took my wife. That's the first argument. Second argument he says that then Rama gives another argument saying that I killed because I am a Shatriya, I am a king and Murgaya, that is what he called hunting, is my Dharma. Then Bali asks, if hunting is your Dharma, you are constricting me as an animal. In animal world whoever has the power will get the meat. I have more power than Sugriva. So I am following my Dharma, so why are you killing me? Rama becomes speechless when he keeps on asking this question because you cannot apply both rules. If you say you are a human, then why did you kill me? You should have come like a human, you should have come and fought me face to face. You hit me behind a tree and killed me like we are hunting. So when I ask that you are telling, I hunted you because you are an animal. Then Bali asks, will you eat me? In many folk ramas he asks, will you eat me? Rama cannot eat, Rama is shocked. Then he says then he is not hunting. Then the next argument comes, many a times tigers and snakes are dangerous to humans. But Bali is not any danger to any human. So what happens is, Ramana cannot be read without reading Mahabharata. But Bali keeps it as an open question. At that moment, that is the only Dharma Rama can do killing Bali. His life will progress. But will he pay the price? He will pay the price. Whether you believe it or not, that is a separate thing. In this story world logic, they have another life. Life is endless. It is cyclic. So Ram becomes Krishan and Bali becomes Jara who shoots Ram. So that that cycle is ticked completely. Not even this. In folk rama and us, I am just trying to think aloud. This story I told, I heard from my father. I told in the many rama and us, many lessons in the audible original. You should try to hear it every minute, every day 10-15 minutes of every story and just analyzing like that using various rama and us. It is free for all. Along with, it is a companion book for while being women or asura. It is an audio book. So when you are walking or doing exercise, you can do that. In that, one of the greatest debates on Dharma happens like this. It is a folk question again. Zayu did a great sacrifice. He tried to protect a woman who was being kidnapped and he died. Rama does his cremation. Lord Ram does his cremation. Now, when he is doing his cremation, the worms, the vultures, the foxes, jackals, hyenas, all these come and complain, what are you doing? This is our food. We are carrion eaters. You are, this is jungle. In jungle, any bird or animal dies, others eat. That is how we live. That is our Dharma. You are breaking our Dharma. Then Rama says, but he helped us. As far as Ayodhya Dharma, I should create him. I have to honour him. It is a barrier. So these creatures says you are doing wrong. Your Dharma, you are trying to bring Ayodhya Dharma to the jungle. In jungle, we are going hungry. So Rama says, but I cannot help it, because this is my nature and you cannot help it. That is your nature. So what should I do? Rama says, only way I can do is, in the next jenma, I will help you. So these creatures say, but we eat by stealing. Will you steal? You are supposed to be the god. Will you steal? Then you will be breaking many rules of humans, because among humans, stealing is considered Adharma. But will you do that? Rama says, since I have done this karma, I have already cremated. I will have to pay the price. So I will be a stealer also. So he comes as Krishna and all these creatures, they get an elevated birth as the Gobagumaras, the Gobas. And in Vrindavan, the Krishna steals butter and other things and gives it to his friends. So that his cycle of karma is complete. So this is how the traditionally it was defined about what is Dharma and Karma. So there is no concept of good versus evil. Why? Again underlining the fact, who was Ravana? Ravana was no one other than Vishnu's bodyguard. Who did the karma of stopping the Sanadagumaras? Once they do that, he has to pay the price. Even though he was obeying his boss, like many bosses, when the problem came, the boss washed off his hands saying that I looked at the... What are you called? The companies they have, the manuals or whatever it is. Handbooks. Handbooks, you should have looked at that. These people are allowed. I didn't ask you to stop everyone who is coming. So they give a choice. Vishnu gives a choice to them whether you can have three lives as my enemies so that we can teach the whole world about this concept of Karma and Karma Vela. Or you can have 100 lives of my devotees in Bhakthas. Now the Bhakthas have a different meaning now because of the trolls and all. But Jaya Vijay are smart. They decided that instead of having 100 lives of a Bhakth, it is better to be three lives of enemies. They didn't like to be Bhakthas. They are intelligent people. So what they did was, they said we will be your enemies. That is how Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashivu came. And Ravana and Kumbhakarna and Kamsa and in some versions Dandavakra, some versions Shishupala, Vardha, Jaya Vijaya, who the Vishnu, Kamsa, Savadara and slaves. Correct. So there is no concept of evil per se. The evil is a very, what do you call it? There is a concept of Adharma that too relative. Evil, good versus evil is a concept of an Abrahamic religion with legions like Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Communism, the four Judaistic great legions. All four are legions only as per me. Communism also is a legion. They have, if you see there are a lot of parallels in their concept. They are not saying one is superior or inferior, both will have advantages and disadvantages. It supports the worldview, Indic religions, that is Indian religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, then the Chinese religions, Confucianism, all those things. They work on a cyclic time and these all work on a specific beginning and an end. Opposites, heaven and hell opposite, God and Satan opposites. So there is a clear cut definition of this is good and this is bad and there is a clear cut of the commandments of you though shall not do this or not do that. When, now what has happened, we have accepted that also, this also is a total confusion. But until then, it's very clear. So now we have got concepts like because pundits in the villages found that this is very good. There is a Vaidharani, Nadi and you will have to pay us. You have to give us a cow so that the soul can go. So all these are later-day concept. Vedas and other things don't mention about that because it's easy to make money out of this. Then you go to hell and then just like Abrahamic religion, you go to hell and you get fried or you become biryani, dum biryani and all those things. And then, so the logical problem with this, with Girdhavirana and all, once you do all these things, that is over. In Abrahamic religion, there is no logical problem for this because God has jets. That happens only in the judgment day whereas here it keeps on happening. There is the judgment day that happens in heaven given to the divine or whatever it is and the others he has put in hell. So in that logic, it works. Here we already have a karma and karmavela logic. Only if you have a karmavela, then you will have a next life, right? For you to add up the karma, what they call. Already if you have got pundits there, then why should you have a next jenma? But for at least 1000 years, the priests made fool of everyone getting cows and other things. That's what Premchand and all had written. Godhan and all. We got great literature out of it. But this is the fact that they mixed, it was a mix and match and they took both. Karmavela concept also and this also because it was more profitable for them. So my attempt is to, in my own humble way, try to bring the... Sorry, I am talking too much. Please stop. No, I am just fascinated by your analysis and one of the things that strikes me is when you talk about the fact that whether it is the story of Mantra or when you look at Shanta, when you look at that, at which point of time do you take the essence? Because for many of these characters, not enough has been said in whether Ramayana or Mahabharata on the marginalized characters, which is why they are marginalized by definition. Does it make it easy for you to take that and turn it into a sort of a parable or it becomes a story which somebody in the contemporary times can also relate to or would it be that much more controversial to write about a similar story of Ram and Krishna and all of that? Would it become that much more difficult and hence, how would you sort of talk about that? I already wrote about Asura and Ajaya but Ravana is the hero in the Asura. Ajaya two book series Duryodhana is the hero, so I already have done that. So it is not that I have afraid of controversy and I started doing this. I already did that first and then I went to these characters, marginalized characters. So that answers the first question. I started with Asura actually, Ravana, Ramayana. I don't know whether you have read it. If you have not, please read it. It is one among 100 books to be read in a lifetime as per... Yes, I know. It's one of the 100 books to read. Yeah, I mean it's just incredible. Yes, I will do that. I must confess that. So that is Ravana is the hero in that. So this one see Ramayana itself is countless Ramayanas are there. That's what I was trying to tell in the other book also. Many Ramayanas, many lessons. Countless Ramayanas are there. A.K. Ramanujan talks about 300 Ramayanas. That's a complete Ramayanas he is talking about. But there are partial Ramayanas and Ramayana character based stories even in Stala Puranas. Puranas ascribe to certain places, holy places. And India every village is holy. So something or other connected to either Ramayana or Mahabharata will be there across the country. So these folk tales, I have tried to collect them a lot. That's what I am trying to bring it through these kind of books. But I might have scratched the surface. You know the difficulty even? The great scholars of Bandarkar Research Institute, Bhori. When they started Bandarkar Oriental Research Institute in Pune. They started collecting Mahabharata. Ramayana is much more actually, the variations. When they tried to collect Mahabharata, they found around 1100 odd Mahabharathas across the country and abroad. Because up to far is it as well. That was a complete Mahabharata. Partial Mahabharathas were more than a lakh. Finally what they did, they took only 8 languages. They didn't take many. Kashmiri as the base because Kashmir didn't change much because of the invasions and all. Others, the storytelling continued. So Kashmiri as the base and they started comparing and that's how they brought the critical addition. There are a lot of critics against the critical addition. Because it has not taken many classical languages like Kannada or Gujarati and all. Which had a great Ramayana tradition. Tamil, Bengali and a few other languages. But India has so many languages. And Bill Mahabharata and all, they have not taken it. Instead of that, they took 55 years to bring up a critical addition. The South Indian version, that itself is not plenty. But the South Indian version is 30,000 slow cars more than the North Indian version. When you say one lakh version, it is the South Indian version we are talking about. One lakh slow cars. North Indian is around 72,000, 72,000, 72,000, 73,000 depending on which version you go. That is more than Ramayana. Ramayana is around 24 to 27,000 depending on the version if you don't take Uttara Ramayana. More than Ramayana is the length of the variation in Mahabharata. So which authentic question we are talking about there. But the advantage for writers like us is if you are ready for hard work and if you are ready to put some imagination into it, you can get, I am not saying everything is there in the scripture. But there is something or other in the folk tales or things that is where I am coming from. For example, Shanta. Shanta is not mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana. Nor is it mentioned in many other Ramayans. Where is Shanta mentioned? There is a Ramayana which is bigger than Valmiki Ramayana, not bigger, but almost as big as Valmiki Ramayana in Mahabharata. It comes in Vanabharva of Ramapakena. The Vanabharva. Udhishthara is told a story because if you see Udhishthara's tale is parallel to Ram's. But in a different way. Udhishthara also goes for the Vanvas. Udhishthara also follows Dharma. So he has told this story about Rama. That is where Shanta's tale comes. So I took the Shanta. Even though I called it Valmiki, it is actually Vyasa's woman. But she belongs to Valmiki, sir. In Valmiki Ramayana, the only one mention comes. Dasarada's daughter and Rishesh Ranga came to do the Putra Kamesh. Correct. The entire story of Shanta is narrated in Mahabharata. I had never actually known about Shanta until I read this. This was really fairly interesting and very very intricate. So beautifully written by the way. Thank you. So Shanta's tale if you see, it is very contemporary. A girl child is unwanted by Dasarada. If you see Ayodhya is not very fair to its women. Unlike Mithila. It is a great story. Khalid Husaini had once in his interview and I was seeing he was telling about this. The greatest story telling is about irony. The more irony you can bring out, the more contrast you can bring out, the stories will sound much more deeper. Valmiki how beautifully he has done it is, he has juxtaposed three kingdoms or four kingdoms perhaps if you take Iskinda. Let us take Mithila and Ayodhya. Mithila has only women. Girl child. They don't even think about a Putrakameshti. Correct. They don't bother about both Janaka and his brother. Both are two daughters each. Sita of course is got from the pharaoh. They don't think about a son. Why? And who is the wisest of all in an entire Puranic world in the Vanishad world? There were many Janaka's but Sita's father Janaka was considered as the, in most of the Vanishads, he is the one who asks questions and debates the deep. Such a wise man, he chooses only girls. He doesn't go for Putrakameshti. Who goes for Putrakameshti? A man of passion who passionately gives. We think Deseretha is a great man because he is father of Ram. He is not a great man. Valmiki has put his flaws perfectly. He gives a boon just like that to Kaigei. When she saves him, Kaigei says, I don't want anything. But he insists because his ego is working. He says, no, no, no, you have to take the boon. And he gives a post dated check. And then suffers for it. The same man, there is a reason why he does that. Okay, that's also told in Ramayan. But there is a, because his father was hen pegged. Or you can't say the word hen pegged. He died because his wife died through heartbreak. Aja. And Deseretha was brought up. Gandhara was passing. And this thing, Garland fell on Aja's wife. And she died and heartbreak he died. And Deseretha was a, what do you call? The son of. Son of. So what happens is Deseretha, when a, when a daughter is born, he's not happy. A daughter like Shanta is born, he's not happy. She's ready to give away so that he can get a saint who will come here and make a, a Gihavan, Etna, and get a son. This much he goes to get the son. And the irony is what? When he is dying, none of his sons are there. Correct. That's what every Indian father says. No, my traditionally, when the Indian father says, when I die, my son should be light the fire. He should give me water and all those things. See the tragedy of Deseretha, after he did everything, no one is there. Whereas Jainaka, he's not bothered about this because he has gone beyond the world. This is how Varmugi brings the contrast. Vyasa brings it more beautifully. The original name of Mahabharata itself is Jaya, which means correctly. Which, what could be more ironical than the name of Jaya in a war where nobody won. The lament of Yudhishthira after winning the war and the curse of Duryodhana that he loves, you have inherited a country of widows. I lived as a king and I fought as a king and I died as a king. You had to kill me by using unfair means, by hitting me below my waist. What are you, call yourself Dharma? You had to lie to kill Drona. You had to use deception for everything and you kept quiet. You called yourself Dharma, son of Dharma and this is what you got. And then when Yudhishthira knows that Karnavas is his brother, he laments that Jaya the smart Parajaya, why this victory looks like defeat, irony. So, this is what it makes it so fascinating that a war fought for Dharma ends up and the question, the eternal question which I raised in my book also. My book starts with that. This was a question which I had from my childhood. If Kurshetra was a Dharma Yudha and if it was Dharma which won, then a Satyug should have done. Logically, analytically, if good has won over evil, then the era which should come is that of the good. But what is coming? Kali Yugi is coming. Kali Yugi is coming. The era of darkness is coming. So, what was it that won? Whether Dharma won or Adharma won? This is the question I start my Ajaya with. It's quite interesting even in Mahabharat if you sort of really look at it and I like the way that you've talked about Dharma as not being binary concepts in the Hindu tradition, which makes a lot of sense because if you see in Mahabharat, the people who really broke all the rules, I mean, a lot of times people say that the Pandavas are the good guys, the Kauravas are the bad guys. The people who broke all the rules were actually the Pandavas. Whether it was Yudhishthira, Krishna or various situations, occasions. And each of the turns in Mahabharat has happened because of somebody either finding a technicality that it was evening time, therefore war has ended and you get killed or somebody has created deception. So you are right that there is a lot of grey areas in this. Yeah, many layers of grey. Many layers of grey. So the purpose is not to teach that good transferable. The purpose is about debating and understanding what is good and bad. That's the purpose of the story and that's how it was told. Otherwise they could have easily written or they could have made Arjuna kill everyone in one shot, one Brahmashra, everybody died and no deception, nothing. He won because of God favoured him. A simple Biblical story. They didn't go for that. God favoured him so they won. It's very simple to tell, no? Many stories are, many stories in the Abrahamic religions are like that not because of any other reason. There is an ancient tradition that it was never good or bad. That is why Nauhabara doesn't end with the war also. Actually it starts from Nauhabara. The Sarpathara was all the then the ancient story. It goes back and forth. The ancient story. Akshara comes back. That fellow comes back and kills that. The Nagas come back and then they get burned in the fire again. So it's like Kunti kills the five Nishada children and they get burned in the fire. This is right? This is right. Anand, we are losing you. I think your connection is wavering a little bit. So we can't hear you. I'm not sure really if you Yeah, I think now you're back but it's still so I think. You know, I can Are you able to hear me? Yes, I can. Now you're back. Yes, I can hear you find now. Absolutely. When you look at the stories that you've narrated. So when we think about all the challenges that we've watched in these stories and the books that we have read. All the mythological stories. I think one of the questions that always comes up is how do you bring about this whole concept of right and wrong without making it extremely sharp because as long as you are talking about right and wrong, I think it's that much harder to write a story because as Anand rightly said bulk of the stories which are there are powerful because they talk to us about irony which is, you know, the people who are supposed to be the good guys are the ones who are flouting the rules or for that matter you know, if you look at in Ramayana you know, you have a situation where not stable. No, I can see I can hear you right now. Okay, in between it went blank. Yes, yes, it just went blank but you know, when you look at those stories do you think we are better off today because many of the things which are parlance you look at Mantra in the story when you talk about Valmiki's women you talk about Mantra and it's sort of in some sense you highlighted the way we discriminate against people who are domestic health, domestic workers you know, there is still a lot of discrimination in that in the best of households you know, there are those kind of situations you look at the first story where you know, you think about the preference in the story of Shanta you know, Dasaraj gives away his daughter because he doesn't want a daughter he wants a son, so he gives away you know, come back to 21st century you know, you are looking at female fetus side you know, it's not very different you look at the Tathak you know, and you are looking at a scenario the Tathak is trying to look at conservation in some sense the Tathak is trying to say that do not kill the animals you know, there is a you look at Mahabharat, one I could go on and on about many of those are we better off really and what lessons have we learned from these books all of us like to show off and say that you know, these are our holy books they have shaped our life these are part of our daily you know, conversations why have things not changed because people two things know our world view changed we are neither here nor there that is a problem now one problem second thing, it is easy to understand things in binary so once you are given that solution it's very difficult to go back to the nuanced understanding of it even in politics if you see the easiest way to garner vote is to talk about binaries that's what they did during the partition so it's very difficult for the message of Gandhi to spread because it's very easy to say us versus them all of us is difficult to convey so these kind of ideas spread fast in the world we always want to see that we are superior and others are doing so you are an unbeliever I am a believer or you are what you call capitalist I am a liberal or whatever bullshit it is it's easy to tell things in binaries and if you see most fables are binaries as your intellect grows the nuanced understanding comes once unless we go back to the traditional traditional sense I am courting about this kind of debate which is a part of that's what the argumentative indian was also trying to highlight that this was a part and parcel of our culture that made our culture so fascinating and so many thought processes came so everything is acceptable or atleast was acceptable in India right from the absolute ahimsa of the jains the extreme like you say you cover your mouth you walk naked to the extreme of carrying eating of tantric one and two other everything was accepted and everything in between was accepted now when we try to define things saying that us versus them and ours is superior if you accept it it means that everything is equal or atleast I don't bother when it's indifference for me it's my way we lived that for review it is your way not that our culture was perfect because in between peace I jagged and caste system made a so all my books have anti-cast huge because it's like totally against humanity it's one of the worst thing to happen even now it is there and all this justification like no no it was about the profession and all those things are bullshit are actually done by some selfish people and it wiped off all the gains of all these great thinkers of whether from the or of the everything was wiped off by these jokers I'm using very harsh words but that's a fact now we have all those flaws which we acquired over the years caste system we have that is the flaw greatest flaw of India we still continue that and not only that other religions which exist in India they also follow caste system now they have taken the bad from us okay and the binaries created lot of one good thing about India was the acceptance of everything right the binary was one bad thing of Abrahamic religion lot of good things are there charity and there is a clear cut thing of what to do for simple people that's enough clear cut thing of this is right and this is wrong many people will follow discipline and other things for that we remained Indian even in traffic we are Indian no discipline nothing in life also so we have the bad quality of our own culture we took the binary binary is something which is which has created bloodsheds across the world cruises to the now the jihats and other things comes from the thought that I am right and you are all not right you are all wrong my concept of God my God is the correct thing my book is the holy book the rest all are infidels or unbelievers this is one problem which is we are not accepting that also in the present era so now we have got worst of all worlds all the garbage and the morality if you see Indian India didn't have a clear cut what he called social morality everything was accepted everything was accepted depending on your community you are free to live in tantric world you are free to have free sex or there was different kind of vivaahas marriages including gandhra vivaahas so it was a much more liberal society what we did we took the garbage of itharan era England and call it Indian culture India I land of kamasutra India I land of land which found that sex has a method of reaching God or or enlightenment now suddenly it's a taboo you have a double sensor for triple sensor board in 100 years we have taken the garbage of itharan era England we have taken the intolerance of the Abrahamic religions at least the middle middle age Abrahamic religions that we are slowly slowly accepting all the calls for this is that we have retained all our nonsense of casteism untouchability and other things in these places so we have ended up as a mess we are neither totally democratic nor we are theocratic nor we have the discipline of discipline or unity of a what he called these kind of theocratic states at least that is some good quality good or bad there is one leader and everybody is following even daddy is not there so we have ended up as a total mess taking all the garbage from everywhere no wonder we have ended up like that we just go out on the road we know that how much indiscipline we are our cities are filled filled with garbage and women are not safe I am not putting a very negative picture but Vyasa would not be surprised the definition of Kalyug is here it is here in India not in any other place we are living in an era of darkness I am not saying there is no hope or anything but we have ended up as the worst of everything and not even good at that being worst and when you look at what is it that we can learn from these works to sort of move towards a better tomorrow what would you say would be the way to openness of mind openness of mind Indian thought philosophy you call it Hinduism, Buddhism, Sanadana whatever name I will call it Indian because it includes all including the Sufism which came through Islam it is about openness of mind accepting what it is around finding your own happiness and truth not in a selfish way but understanding that there could be multiple ideals and not authoring anyone saying that they are bad they are the evil people this is what we learn from good versus evil story that is why I am trying to break it these are not good verses not that my attempt is going to make a great change but whatever one man can do whatever one can do that is all so I am trying to bring no this is not what they are told they are told about this nuanced they live in karma or different births there is no compulsion but what it gives is there are some disadvantages of that but we do not have time to get into it but simply if I put it simply what it gives is a kind of inner peace that nothing ends there is nobody to judge you there is not even a God to judge you you are your own judge you do what is good we are not doing it somebody has told you you are not doing it because your religion tells you you are not doing it because you will go to hell or you will get some reward for what you are doing swadharma whatever makes you happy whatever floats your boat if you really see you are finally ended up with the liberal democracy what many of these European countries now try to profess that is what we have been telling for years what Buddha has been telling what Yatnevelki has been telling we have celebrated life it is a British construct that India is a spiritual civilization or India is just a spiritual civilization no, India is a very materialistic civilization see the exuberance of the temples many of them in the north have been destroyed but if you come to south or in the middle India see the kind of huge massive temples which is with so much life so much art so much art has been produced if it is a just a spiritual civilization even art also they might have gone to spirituality ultimately everything will be spirituality is a very shallow term it is a celebration of life we celebrated life not through killing others or killing for faith or anything we celebrated life as such so in that sex became a part music became a part art became a part literature became a part you don't like this Ramayana you make your own that's why we celebrated even our literature we celebrated life that's why we are so many versions of Ramayana we didn't roam around at that time people didn't roam around saying that some guru didn't roam around saying that I am the head and any other version will be burned and you will be burned at stake we never did that now we may do it in another 100 years we may do it we are going to that level we are so good we have not done that except perhaps in the recent times so this is what reading this they are not going to give you any reward other than life is the reward living is the reward it is breath is the reward what could be every breath is a reward what could be better than better told than that yeah and to me that is called prana prana by you yeah and the fact that when you think about the whole notion of whenever there has been a war it has always happened because we have produced the other we are good it's the other and it happens everywhere if you see anti-immigration sentiment also comes from the same thing that it's the immigrants who have destroyed our way of being you see it even within states you know people will say this place used to be so beautiful until these fellows from the other states have come in so I think you are right for me the big takeaway actually is about tolerance being able to accept that okay my method my habits my way of living could be very different from yours but at the same time there is no right or wrong tolerance is not the right word Abhijeet I feel because tolerance is again tolerance I will put it like if I have if you have for 2 minutes it's a known story but I will just tell it Shankara Adi Shankara which is instantly from Kuchin only he had travelling all around after reaching what you call is Sarvachna Veda he was travelling and he was being carried by his disciples the palkin and then one of the disciples said when Chandala was coming one of the disciples said move away the great Brahmin is coming move away Chandala didn't move so what was Shankara's teaching that everything is Brahma you are Brahma I am Brahma the entire world is Brahma it's Advaitha there is no 2 everything is same Chandala started laughing Chandala started laughing and the disciples got angry why are you laughing so he said ask your Guru he talks about Parabrahma everywhere it is Parabrahma you can call it any name the supreme spirit energy whatever it is ask him whether there is a Brahmana Parabrahma and a Chandala Parabrahma just ask him that the great Guru is being questioned by be a folk tale or anecdotal whatever it is he is a very famous still Shankara gets down from the palakkin and falls on his feet and it is told that it is lord Shiva who is asking it the question the Chandala becomes lord Shiva maybe somebody some Brahmin would have felt uneasy that Shankara is falling in the feet of Chandala Shankara will not feel because he is a great soul and he understands his mistake but lesser Brahmins may have felt that so an actual forget it is lord Shiva actually Chandala should have asked like that it is the greatest question to ask thousands of years ago this is enacted in many of the Kerala temples even now in many Maharashtra and Dattatraya temples also they tell the story in Kerala many of the like in the Tayyam this thing what they called they enact the story every day as a ritual the question is asked every day to the people saying that what is the difference between tolerance is what it is a very western word what you do but I tolerate it that is tolerance when you talk about the concept of Advaita forget it is a logical thing this cannot be proved in a lab many things you cannot prove you cannot prove the fragrance in a lab similarly many things you cannot prove this fellow once you think about Advaita we are same what is enlightenment in one of the Buddha story he says that how did you feel that you are enlightened one of the disciple Ananda asked Buddha Buddha says I first understood that I and the tree are one the Bodhi tree are one there is no difference between us then I understood that Bodhi tree and I why am I thinking it as two different things we are together we are it is not even one and the same there is no need to tell it it is the same then Buddha became silent because even that telling that thought itself is a division so this is how the gurus try to teach it so once we understand that it is the same spirit or same thing it is there across in the smallest of the world even corona virus to the sparkling sun or the sun is a very small thing in the vast expanse of the universe that is what I tried to do in the Valmiki the first story where the Valmiki feels that expanse many of the creative people sometimes as a spark they may feel it creative does not mean only writing even businessmen feel it everyone can feel it actually enlightened people what they call they feel it always somebody like Buddha or whatever I am not talking about many of the gurus who sell from dhalda to rocket I am not talking about them so this if you can try to feel that is enough always you may not get it maybe once in a year you will get it that moment is worth living that is what I would say the moment you start thinking like that no everyone is the same the servant you call the servant the same your enemy is the same everyone is the same we are seeing the same thing so what beautiful concept is there I am telling it more examples from Kerala because I am telling it from that one of the thing is Shabrimala lot of controversy has happened but there is a beautiful ritual based on it whether you believe it or not is separate I am an agnostic many times I am an atheist most of the days sometimes I am an agnostic I am hardly a believer to be very frank it does not matter when I ask my father he is no more he said that is all right that is your dharma why should be a problem he was that traditional Hindu that is what I am telling so in Shabrimala anyone the respective of the caste those days itself now it might be relevant once they put the this thing they put a mala once they put the action and take the 41 days of dutta those 41 days they should not eat non-veg they should not eat liquor, smoke, they should not tell a lie they should lie on the floor all those things are there but more importantly they lose the name if abhijith is putting abhijith is no longer abhijith if abhijith is putting abhijith is ayyappa abhijith is ayyappa and you will be addressed as ayyappa by everyone if I am putting I will be ayyappa 1 lakh people are putting all are ayyappas your position does not matter your caste does not matter your religion does not matter lot of non-Hindus also they also put bad in Kerala especially you are ayyappa everyone you treat alone you will not lie you will not do anything nobody is accompanying you nobody is going to do anything it is on your own this thing then you climb up making your own you are totally self dependent you cook your own food you climb up first first thing what you see tattva masi you are that why have you come here it is a question tattva masi I am God and you too are that I am the universe this is for seeing that you are going there every year you are getting remanted of that many people go there as a picnic that is a separate thing and talking about the same thing is a concept on logomaniyati like it was already there on the concept of Ganesha not the huge decorative Ganesha and put pandal and taking money and talking about originally how was and how collective social social but otherwise how it was there in Maharashtra and in the clay and eco-friendly material for so many days whichever days you are taking so many days it is the God you are doing puja this is your ishta devada you are making then you go it is called visarjan what is the meaning of visarjan visarjan is garbage you know actually actual meaning what you throw away is garbage what you throw away is visarjan the moment you put it is no longer God because it is your ishta the sangalpa it is your ishta devada you are putting it and you are putting it in the sea or water and it becomes one with that you take dip on that all this kind of rituals if you go deeper into it they are it is not superstition it is not science do not call it science and do it it is all about some practice to make you think not rationally make you feel rather if you can experience that well and good if you do not experience that also enjoy life that is a charwagamada that is also accepted thank you thank you so much Anand you know my big take away from today's conversation one or two things I just want to remind just for my own this thing I think my one big take away is what struck me as unusual is that you are you are an atheist and you write some of the most fascinating stories about mythology Ramayana Mahabharata etc and your awareness about different pieces of work very fascinating I love the fact that you talk about some of the marginalized characters and you talk about they always say history is written by the one who has been victorious but you have also written history from the point of view of those who have been defeated the one who has been vanquished actually in the title that you then done that and then again you know you weave back each of these stories into what is happening today is no different and it's an opportunity for us to think about the entire thing and just say that where is this intolerance and where is this sort of we moved away and that may be an opportunity for us to reflect so thank you very very much guys just want to say fabulous book I enjoyed reading it lovely and you know all those who came in and heard Anand it was beautiful the very best to you more part of your pen happy writing thank you so much for being here thank you for watching bye bye