 events were stained with us. Nigeria has dropped again on the corruption perception index, CPI, published by Transparency International, TI. According to the 2021 run-kin released on Tuesday by the agency, Nigeria dropped five places. The country scored 24 out of 100 point run-kin, 154 out of 180 countries. Meanwhile, the presidency has described the report as sensational and baseless rating on Nigeria and the fight against corruption. Well, this course was made this time around as deputy director, Sarah, Kola Wale Oluwadari, and of course, we'll also have Debo Adinro, who is the chairman and center for anti-corruption and open leadership joining us as well. Good evening to you, Kola. Many thanks for joining us on the show. Good evening. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it is a pleasure. I'm sure you have followed the publication that says it was released yesterday and it has generated lots of reactions amongst Nigerians, and of course, the presidency has actually come out today to also react. But let me just get you open and thought concerning this because it is really alarming that we have been talking about anti-graft war, you know, and specifically, these index measures corruption in the public sector. What are your thoughts exactly? Is corruption getting worse on that this present administration? Thank you very much. I don't think it's alarming to anyone who has been in Nigeria and who leaves Nigeria. And to ask him about my thoughts about the fight against corruption in Nigeria, particularly under the administration of president for a mode of inquiry, we cannot say that the fight against corruption has moved on quite well. And that is, well, that is obvious really. When you watch out of events in Nigeria, what we've seen is more of a motion with that movement. Motion to that movement? Yes, talking of the fight against corruption. On that present moment of worry, the confining thing. And to put it in proper context, we knew the mantra of this administration before they came into government. They also are high, if you ask me, about the fight against corruption, but the need to appear to have been done. And there are various in this dimension to measure this. A part of which was also employed by the Transparency International India methodology. And this is quite clear for anyone who has a popular event in Nigeria, Kinley. You can look at legislation, for instance. There are key legislations that would have been the fight against corruption that the president did not accept to. And this is not about legislation not being introduced, but legislation that that kind of scales through the National Assembly, but the president refused to accept it. The key among that is the audit bill, which would have been powered the office of the Auditor General of the Federation. And to allow in or out whoever owns the office to do key work as part of the audit accountability cycle. The president refused to accept the bill. Also the proceeds of crime deal, which is a very important part of the anti-corruption would have enabled the stakeholders in that sector to manage the proceeds of corruption, to prevent these proceeds from being mismanaged. The president again refused to accept that bill. And that key legislation that should have been passed, for instance, the whistleblowers act to protect whistleblowers and to encourage people to come forward. That's not been passed. So how can we say that this administration is fighting corruption? And most importantly, as one of the key drivers of corruption in Nigeria, transparency on accountability or the more at peace, they put the lack of need in governments that added corruption in no small way. And this administration has not done enough because they've done well at all. In transparent governance, they still look big as ever. All right. We'll come back to you and we'll get more of your thoughts concerning this particular issue. But let us bring in Dabo Adena, our chairman and center for anti-corruption and open leadership. Kako, good evening to you Dabo. Many thanks for joining us on the show. Good evening. Thank you for having me. Yes, it is indeed our pleasure. Let me get your candid opinion concerning this particular issue in Nigeria, ranking 154 out of 180 countries. I listened to the presidential spokesperson this morning and he talked about how it is not just an indictment to the government alone, but also Nigerians. If I put it differently, is the government expecting Nigerians to actually stamp out corruption for it when it actually had said that it will do that when it was campaigning before it came into power in 2019? Thank you very much. We should first and foremost take notes of the fact that what we are assessing is the perception index of anti-corruption fights in the country. And of course, if there is opacity in the fight against corruption, the perception would have been different. If people are not aware of the volume, the magnitude of corruption crimes that are being committed on a daily basis in both public and private sectors of the economy. I believe that it is the volume of cases that are being exposed by the existing anti-corruption agencies that made the perception stand the way it does. And if the fights against corruption progress this, the rate thing will be even lower before it begins to look upwards. Yes, I heard that there are a number of legislations that the present administration has not signed into law. But then we have a number of other legislations that have been working for the administration's effort. The little effort that they are making, we should not underestimate it. And that is what we are doing. We can only encourage the administration to do more. The operationalization of the legislation that have been put in place by the previous administrations were not done, maybe because there wasn't political will on the part of the previous administration to make those legislations work. That is why we are still aware. If all of those legislations have been put into practice, I believe that we will have moved a much further than where we are. For example, I keep on saying that the BVL, the Threshold Single Accounts, have been very helpful. The school more, that is special control units, against money laundering. The act itself that gives the identification of impetus. So yes, so part and parcel of those that make the fight against corruption easier to fight. And prevention, they say, is better than care. There are a number of other legislations that make the commission of the crimes difficult for those who want to commit it. And that is one way by which the administration has reduced the impunity with which corruption crimes have been committed in the past. I don't know yet where we are supposed to be, but we are no longer where you used to be. It doesn't matter what the perception is as of now. But as soon as the fight progresses in the right direction, if all the agencies, all the arms of government, all the tiers of government, put their heads together and have a commonality of opinion, of strategy, on how to fight corruption, and they really make the existing law to work, I believe that in no time we will be singing gosana that we are getting out of that. All right. Thank you, Debo. Let me get back to Barista Kolaulina. You have been following Debo, Daniel Rosa, in opposition. Specifically, he said it doesn't matter what the perception is that the overtime would see all of the efforts being put in place by the federal government. This particular administration, it might come to light over time. But I still want to talk about the credibility and acceptability of this particular index that was just released by TI. I'm still quoting the presidency, and they have come out to say that it is baseless and sensational. Specifically, a feminist additional said that should we believe in an index or put together by foreigners, should we also be talking about either rating ourselves as a country to know what Nigerians actually perceive of corruption to be in the country? Kolaulina. I find that statement very, it's funny, actually, because you cannot divorce perception of the people from governance. So if this is a story, if this report that is based on what people perceive as a level of corruption, it is as important as any kind of research about the state of corruption itself. Public participation is a key part of democracy. And in this administration, encouraging public participation in governance is key. It does not only go to acceptability, but also conveys sovereignty, acceptability on the government itself. So for the people to perceive that the fight against corruption of progress has chosen a lot about the efforts of government either in the fight against corruption or in convincing the people that they are actually fighting corruption. And when you look at the key indices and the methodology where I employed in this report, you will see that really. It really puts in place objective criteria. For instance, it looks at the direction of public forms, instances of bribery, a prevalence of officials using public office for private gain. It looks at rectivism and bureaucracy in governance. It looks at the, for instance, effective criminal prosecution for pop-up officials. It also looked at illegal protection for whistleblowers. Also looked at the state capture and access of suicide information. It goes to transmission and accountability. We cannot downplay the effect and the objectivity of this report. What the government needs to do is to demonstrate political way to fight corruption, which, if you ask me, from 2015 to now has not been at all. And it's not for lack of opportunity. The president had enough opportunity, time and again, to demonstrate not only the political way to fight corruption, but to set an example that he would not tolerate corruption at all. And a very good example we can give, which you're all familiar with, is the report of the general of the federation that has come in year in, year out, detailing out a lot of forms that could not be accounted for. And we've seen the president do nothing about this. I've written in mind that it is the president at that point, the general of the federation under section 85 and 86 of the constitution. And for example, last year, he was a general in November 2021, released the 2019 report. And detailed now eight ministries, department allegiances of government could not account of 49 billion error. And with the great deficit in the 2022 budget of a more than six billion, you would think that the president would take action, not only to make sure that those fan copy book bodies are at a face justice, but also secretly copy of those forms, nothing has been done. And that also goes to the various funds and allegations of corruption that they made. They're in the public domain, we've not seen anything done about that. And when we look at that, a very good example will also be the budgetary allocation to agencies of government. All what we see is the yield amount budgeted to the appropriation process. But when it comes to procurement and how the budget is implemented, the capacity sets in, we do not even have enough information of that. And so in the absence of transparency and accountability, the corruption tried. And this government has not displayed enough political will to nip that in the thought at all. And then we talk about the infinity and the rule of law. This government has not tried, not at all in this domain, all that sort of thing. All right, thank you, Kola Wali. Let's try and get some last words from Debo now as we conclude on this particular discussion. Sorry, this course that is. Debo, you have been following. And Kola Wali seems to feel that and the federal government is not showing enough from political will to want to stamp this issue of corruption completely out of the country. Do you agree? And I'm going forward. How do we begin to correct all the societal errors? Because if you ask me, the issue of corruption has really eaten Dave. If you go to the public schools in the university, there are lots of open corruption for our nation and all of that. What do we begin to do as a nation to ensure that we get very good perception not only from Nigerians, but of course from the international community? Debo. Thank you very much. First and foremost, we should realize that the administration has not been advertising itself enough and it's not even friendly to the media, both social and the traditional media. And that is why some of the efforts are not known to the public and that's informed what the perception would be. But I still agree with Kola Wali that enough grants that ought to have been covered yet to be covered. And the kind of flurry of activities that we expect that the government will embark on to ensure that it is exemplary in the observation of legislations that controls corruption. The government has not given itself enough matching order to ensure that within government MDAs that corruption is made an anathema. For example, what ICPC should have been working on with Act 2, that is anti-corruption and transparency unit that's supposed to exist in all the MDAs. Government has not given it enough seats to buy it. And to even at CCB, when assets and liabilities are declared by public officials, verification of all of the declared assets have not been diligently done and nobody is being prosecuted for anticipatory declaration and a number of other cases that are stipending in the Ministry of Justice. And as a matter of fact, it's like the Minister of Justice has deliberately constituted itself or that Ministry as a cog in the wheel of progress in the fight against corruption. And that is why several cases are stipending in court and several lawyers can circumvent the course of justice and will not make it to work the way it is. All right, Deba. And the President himself should be the good example that we can cite and all of the profligacy that is still going on at the presidency. There are things that the President could do without but we still see the President condoning them. Those are some of the things that could inform the perception of the public. All right, thank you, Deba. The public will that should be garnered. So basically, the government officials should stand as a shining example, not a bad example that public will. All right, thank you so much, Deba Adenirom. You're welcome. All right, that is much as we can take. We must say a very big thank you to our panelists who have really dealt very well with this particular discussion. We must say thank you to Deputy Director of CERAP, Oluwadare and Deba Adenirom, who is the Chairman Center for Anti-Corruption and Open Leadership CACOR. Thank you once again, gentlemen. Thank you for having me. All right, thank you for staying with us Nigerians who take a short break and when we return, I'll be giving you my take. But the issue of corruption and its perception has not only eaten deeply into the fabrics of the nation's society. It's almost as though it is in our country's DNA. Now the latest report by Transparency International isn't really surprising, as what we have since so far is the absence of political will at the highest level and also the political tyranny. I wonder if institutions like the EFCC and ICPC are fast becoming toothless bulldogs. However, there is an urgent need to accelerate the fight against corruption if we are to hold human right abuses and democratic decline across the globe. I am Justin Khadunyeh. Many thanks for watching. We'll return again tomorrow. Bye for now.