 Unless anybody objects I'd like to just record the TS games in case from the TSE can't make it that way it'll be To catch up later They may have an issue with that Would ask everybody please just the courtesy of everybody else do not put this call on mute or on hold That be big is going to drive me and certainly crazy Todd if you can figure out whose line that is maybe you can just disconnect them and let them dial back in when they get back This is Mike I did send out an agenda for today. I also just before this call sent out the two candidates, so we have for The TSE chair position In the agenda that I had drafted I had five to ten minutes up front for statements from the TSE chair nominees We have two nominees So I'd like to give them just three to five minutes to introduce themselves say hello You know what their view for the hyperledger is and whatever else they they want to say to advocate And I will keep you guys to a pretty hard five minutes. No more than that, please Just so we can moving and you know, they're all they're both available for Questions comments whatever after the meeting encourage anybody who wants to you Get to know the candidates better to reach out via email or phone or However, it would help if you do need Contact info or something just what Todd or I know and we'd be happy to provide that Thank you nominate well first are you online? Do you want to kick it off? Or Emanuel whoever wants to go first. How do we have Chris Ferris and Emanuel on I? Am on this is Chris. Oh Chris. Do you want to just give a quick? Yeah, so I'm That beeping is really bugging me too. I don't know what it is That's how can we remove that person's line or just mute everyone and then We can come off me if they need be okay, that's worse Yeah, that's even worse Okay, can you hear me? Yep, that seems to have resolved it. Okay, and I think this will stay unmuted So hi, I'm Chris first. I Work for IBM I might be am so presented to the TSC. I'm an IBM distinguished engineer and CTO for open technology, which means I have overall technical responsibility for all of our IBM's open source and open standards I I've got a focus this year in particular on this particular project to sort of help Get it stood up and pointy in the right direction. I've got quite a bit of experience And in setting up, you know new organizations and baby communities off the ground and and thriving I worked in particular on you know getting IBM engaged in OpenStack and also Club Foundry But I've also got extensive experiences. I know that my am I right up in sharing a number of certainly open standards initiatives at the W3C and Web services interoperability and so forth. So I think I've got the requisite Technical depth in my background And and and the skills to to help get this community Off the ground and right I've got I believe and I think anybody who knows me will probably attest that I'm Fairly balanced in my approach. I don't necessarily bring An IBM heavy, you know position and certainly in the context of where I've been chair of a working group I think most people would recognize that I Typically, you know, I'm very clear about which hat I happen to be wearing at any given time and And I I try to sort of earn the trust of the team Or the workgroup that I'm that I'm leading Without, you know, abusing the privilege and and you know bringing just an IBM perspective. So I think like so I think I've got the depth and breadth and experience to do to do I think an effective job Certainly, this is a priority for us here at IBM to ensure the success of this project and Here they'll do whatever that whatever needs to be done to help make it a success whether I'm the chair or not Unmute one Mute everybody You don't go on mute Michael from Optimus vantage your line is open if you could go on mute. It would be helpful or I'll just tap you All right Emanuel are you on I've unmuted everybody. So if you're Unmute on your local phone, then it might not come over. Okay. It doesn't look like a manual is joined yet So manual is the other candidate. His bio is in the email that I sent out to the mailing list So please do take a look And reach out to if you Have any questions for him, right? And then we will run the election as approved last week and get things kicked off If I move forward on the agenda that I sent out Next would be a code of conduct discussion Chris Ferris, I think you had volunteered to sort of lead through a discussion on this and pointed to the cloud foundry code of Conduct, I didn't see anything else on the mailing list. So maybe I I don't know if I missed that but I Don't know if there was a specific draft or anything that you had or just want to talk about it generally I did see some questions of whether we needed one and some other comments back, but that was about it Yeah, I think that was all the conversation that I saw as well somebody Sort of asking whether or not we need one I I actually keyed up this discussion For a couple of reasons and you first of all, it's in it's in the charter. We're supposed to pull one together But also, you know, there was I think a Little bit of Shall we say I'm warranted behavior in in in one of the mailing list I don't remember which one it was and I'm not going to call anybody out certainly but You know, I think we have to you know, sort of watch out for you know use of that ominous and so forth when we When we engage each other in the mailing list and keep it all civil and cordial And and I think that you know just sort of having a code of conduct reinforces that it's not necessarily You know that we have some rules and so forth and we're going, you know, but I think it is Valuable to sort of make a statement make sure everybody sees and understands what we expect in in the community And and have at least, you know some Ability to sort of point somebody to the code of conduct if we feel that they're conduct is on becoming And then hopefully that'll sort it out So I I think it would be worthwhile to sort of you know think about this As I as I mentioned in the note that I sent I helped the Cloud Foundry Foundation craft their code of conduct. It was derived from Work that we had started before the foundation was launched And and that was you know, we took a long look at a number of different code of conduct statements and policies from from various groups that are all listed at the bottom of the Cloud Foundry one and You know try to pull something together that sort of ensured that there was going to be you know No, then ensured that the community we brought together was going to be one that everybody wanted to be to be a member of So I mean, I don't know if we need to change it necessarily. I think it could you know, we could sort of use it as Here's we probably have to ask them, you know for an editable copy that we can change out some of the property bits but You know, we can do that or you know, we could form a small committee and a few of us who have an interest in this couldn't Work to train craft our own Sort of put that on the table We ask questions Like yeah, yeah Sorry, hey say Chris. This is big moment How do you so I read through the materials around it actually looks great How do you or how it has it been applied in the past? You know to say Remove somewhere from the TFC kind of thing or how do you see it actually being other than a set of guidelines useful? So so the way and again Cloud Foundry is a little bit different than this project because it's its own foundation So it's its own leech team and so forth and To my knowledge Again, we would have to ask Sam or chip Children's Sam around you who's the CEO or chip Children's who's a The VP of technology for Cloud Foundry Foundation if they've ever had to resort to sort of Using the code of conduct, but basically the the approach that we agreed on was basically that You know if somebody felt that you know, there was some behavior that needed Remediation, you know that they would go to Sam or chip. I think there's a link in the thing that you know allows you to sort of send in a Complaint if you will and then Sam or chip. I think you know coaches the individual Or individuals as the case may be And so this is sort of a three strikes and drought Process that they have in play and so they'll sort of just remind people of the code of conduct If they don't then they'll get a warning and then if they don't You know if they continue to misbehave Then we can ask them to leave There's you know, again, it depends on the nature of the individual if somebody's got a Position, you know, they can be sort of asked to step down Again, these are all volunteer, you know endeavors all open source is really and So so I think the intention is not that we necessarily kick anybody out but that we at least have a process in place that Somebody from the willing Foundation Princess could point to somebody and just sort of remind them that they should To two comments one is How do you determine whether the complaint is warranted? second comment is some of the material seems overreach like for example Silence is taken as an ascent Meaning somehow that not calling out this behavior is Taken to be also reprehensible in the in the actual text of the of what you had put up One of the points was that if you're silent that means you're somehow Ascenting to that behavior Which is you know Going down a slippery slope there So obviously we all can recognize What bad behavior could be but we may not all agree On what it is So in the end it's there's a judgment call involved of course in the case of flagrant violations You know, you can always say That that person is misbehaved But if it's not as obvious and if somebody complains and that complaint itself is unwarranted That's first and second is a silence aspect So I think that those are those are fair comments, you know, again, I wasn't saying we had to take this lock-sock and barrel I was sort of putting it up for discussion. I Think you know, I think many would think that you know when when somebody sees inappropriate behavior and doesn't say anything about it that You know, it isn't necessarily a sense But In a sense, it's it's sort of accepting of that behavior Even if it, you know, isn't something that you would necessarily agree with You know, so, you know, just you know for an example if somebody was You know, if somebody was insulting somebody else in the mailing list and you didn't call attention to that and You know, all of us sort of aligned. Hey, you know, let's tone it down Then it tends to You know again, doesn't have to be public, right? But it tends to sort of reinforce the behavior and and that can that can lead to situations that become More difficult to remediate because it's been You know because it's been going on for so long, right? And so somebody might think that it's acceptable behavior. Does that make sense? But I mean again, I'm happy to, you know, have a conversation We can remove, you know statement like that, but Yeah, I mean obviously if you know people have to ascend but you have to see the size of this mailing list if now if everybody says You know, there are let's say, I don't know how many people are on this mailing list, but if a few people stand up and say this is not good are the other people were remaining silent also Ascending to this behavior. They obviously are not and That can be a problem, right? I mean to say that you you're silent I mean, I get your point that it's creating a climate of Sent to this kind of behavior. It is doing all kinds of stuff like that, but yeah Sure, but I'm saying, you know the wording should be kept This was the comment from the other person who said there should be no call of conduct because basically that That means that everybody recognizes what good behavior is and yes, you know, it's not like it's not like We don't know what racism or sexism or ageism or whatever it is sound like and we don't know what insults sound like but We cannot possibly please every Aspect of this and no, no should I know should a call of contact cover all possible cases so Keep it simple in other words Yep, no, I think that I think that's fair feedback, you know, again, we looked at a number of these and they're been You know in in in in the history of all open-source that have been many occasions and actually sort of I wouldn't necessarily call discrimination as much as as You know some some women in our industry tend to feel, you know Sometimes that, you know, they're not treating the same and that there's a certain amount of I don't know bias or you know, whatever against them and and and it can tend to be I don't want to say ignored but not necessarily recognized for what it is because all frankly guys don't necessarily have the same perspective as other women and have In that context, so I again, I think that, you know Again, I think it'd be valuable if we were to get together and agree on the set of Guidelines that we wanted to choose for our community doesn't have to be as prescriptive as this one But I do think that it's important that we at least Outline sort of what the morees should be in our group Or shouldn't be Without necessarily being overly prescript that excuse me prescriptive and also without necessarily having Specific processes this does For having to necessarily deal with it, but Pardon me. It just you know, it just sort of I think is important that we we lay the ground work for Well, I mean unfortunately, you know weird and bad things do have to do tend to happen out in the sort of public You know, you have heated discussions and it can all of a sudden turn into a Little bit ugliness and This is Mike Dahl from likes foundation I will say is one of the two lawyers of the foundation and the fact that we oversee so many projects now It is very unfortunate, but we run into this more often than Than than I then I feel comfortable as a human being admitting It's just very unfortunate what some of these conversations can devolve into With and it's it's not typically the TSC members or anybody who's a committer maintainer You know the ones where we have to wrap a man people are you know? random people who show up just to pile on and and You know spur on even further worse behavior And so it does help to have a published set of guidelines that you can point to to say, you know This is outside those bounds the process for how you handle Disputes as they should arise is usually done in a you know as Chris mentioned they I think I'm caught founder. They do use a three strikes rule some of our other projects There's like a TSC private list where they will handle any complaints like that to a TSC private mailing list so that's Handled amongst the TSC members to decide how to respond On other projects the governing board handles it I'm open to you know any ideas about how you guys might want to adjust the code of conduct or the process for it but I do think it would be who you given the Comments I've already seen and had to moderate and you know the fact that they're already happening to put something in place that we can At least point to something and you know, I don't expect the TSC members trying to follow this Hopefully not I've never seen that happen But it's more for you know, just general community conduct to make sure that we have a policy to point to to say, you know that's unacceptable behavior and Fortunately, this does happen. It really does. It's unfortunate. I've seen that every type of bad acting behavior That I can think of and it disgusts me, but it happens It would be good if someone could make a statement in the I don't know Maybe the code of conduct makes some place else about how we should react because as someone mentioned there was a You know one particular person who said some things then very soon after that and I objected I I didn't say anything about it But I thought it was not good and then someone came back and said maybe that was a little bit too harsh And then they went on and you know and it seemed all civil after that So I felt like okay someone responded that was dealt with the fact that I didn't respond didn't mean I was Supporting that bad behavior and so I would just hope that someone who does act up if they have one or two people say That was wrong. They don't say well 95 people didn't say so so they must support my you know bad behave my behavior I would just hope that that is you know silence isn't you know taken as a vote for that behavior Yeah, I think Chris is pointing to one, you know code of conduct. There's obviously other examples You know, I think this one is interesting just in terms of It is it is a fairly modern code of conduct. It's been fairly thoroughly reviewed if the silence is a scent You know one is throwing everyone off then maybe we should look at you know phrasing that differently that you know Maybe it's you know, encourage that the community speak out against any bad behavior it sees or something like that that way It's not you know silence is a scent but You know with that one change that it seems to be the one that's ain't gotta If want to do like a small group to work on this if a few people are interested in Working together on it. We can get that going and bring a proposal back Or just work out for the emailing list Want to make sure I was good Yeah, that sounds good and and you know using the code of conduct as we have started capturing the culture we expect in the group Seems like a really good idea And I'm happy to help Chris at least in the Whoever wants to help work on it Do some editing or we can do it on mailing list either one Thanks, Mike if I could ask maybe you and Chris could you know just work on getting this a draft together That looks reasonable and then send that out to the mailing list for comments and work it through there That'd be okay That's good to me Chris. I'll get in touch with the offline Yeah, thanks, Mike Any further comments and code of conduct before we move on? Okay? Mick I'm gonna turn over make you presenter here Or do you want me to share your slides? Let me see. I've got it up. Okay. No promises that this is gonna work. I'm not a go-to-meeting expert, so I Think I'm doing that work. I don't see you sharing. Did you click the show button on the right hand side? Yeah, I can see it Yeah, I'm seeing it Okay, okay it worked and I wanted to keep this really fast and it's mostly just You know we've talked about this we're in progress You know no promises on what the final results will be Everyone has dealt with internal processes before But I wanted to at least give you an idea about the kinds of things that we're talking about fairly publicly about this and and just Set some expectations, so this is gonna be really quick high-level overview of what we're doing So Unlike the other contributions The project that we've been working on at Intel, you know, it is a complete ledger we're using for real applications But it really came out of and was principally architected a research platform for us to understand and characterize some of the care the the properties of the different kind of consensus algorithm Anyway to characterize some of the characteristics of properties of these of these algorithms So that that Research focus really came through as in an architecture where absolutely everything is plug-and-play To apology algorithms communications Consensus algorithms all the way up to the semantics of the of transactions Is all plug-and-play? And and I will say that because it started out of that as a you know as a research project our architectural decisions and implementation decisions were for extensibility Not for local performance So we were more concerned about protocols and interfaces than about the Particular details of what the correct database should be for journaling blockchains We are in the process of Hardening that code to level at which we would be comfortable doing public Prusa concept and in fact we're doing some internal Marketplaces I'll talk about in a minute where we're actually making it available to Outside the comforts of the lab for application in use that way Yeah, so like pretty much every other proposal there's three basic layers the communication layer which is something that Let's see there's not really much in the way of innovation there except in the sense of Interactions related to the apology and apology creation Which is actually something that has not been examined very much in the academic literature at least so far when talking about some of the existing Bitcoin blockchain algorithms So There's some work that's been done there that we can talk about that I think the important thing is that in the journal and ledger layers what we're really doing is driving for separation of Transaction consensus from transaction semantics. So the journaling layer is all about consensus of set of identifiers And whether or not those identifiers are valid is punted up to What we're calling the ledger layer and that's actually where we in where we implement and enforce a set of semantics on it The the validator interface that we have supports both light and full validation participation We have a set of gossip protocols have been implemented for Intervalidator communication and a bunch of Different kinds of HTTP interfaces that allow observer trans actors to participate in the net in the network So like I said communication is kind of a boring layer. So I'm going to skip past that for the most part Our approach to doing Plugable consensus is Really through identification of a few Common events and then allowing the different consensus algorithms to provide handlers for each of those events So there are things like you know transaction has come in. How do we add it to our to our pending queue? It's time to actually build a block How do we decide which transactions go on the block and and that's interesting because for example in some cases There's no prioritization of those in other cases. There is prioritization There's claiming which is some form of I've been elected the leader or participating in the block claim Make it work. And then we have a bunch of things that are sort of out calls In the case of the validation it's a call up to the transaction the ledger layer in order to make sure that the semantics are correct for it and We're also doing a fair amount with incentives So let me use this as a moment to point out that While a lot of the discussions in this group has been around kind of permission ledgers where Most of the incentives we can talk about are extrinsic You know, there is value in the transactions that's sufficient to justify participating in validation we at Intel are concerned about usages where not necessarily Cryptocurrency kinds of things but open market places and consumer applications where Where incentives need to be intrinsic as well And so the architecture supports both extrinsic and intrinsic forms of incentives I'll come back to this in a minute, but we've implemented both I mean, we're we're kind of classifying the protocols for consensus in two forms. One is the Lottery form that's used by By the kind of proof-of-star Algorithms it There are nice characteristics, but as we all know the liveness properties and business team fault tolerance to require Handling of rollbacks for most of those algorithms and then the sort of traditional Byzantine fault tolerance and and fault tolerant algorithms that are essentially Forms of voting algorithms. So we've got implementations of a consensus algorithm of our own which replaces proof of work with a proof-of-processor and we've also done implementations of a Quorum voting that looks remarkably like the Protocol that Ripple uses for consensus and that allowed us to actually do studies and comparisons of Performance and scalability characteristics of the two different approaches, which was really our focus Like I said We punt semantics up into this and to what we're calling the ledger layer and this really came out of the observation over the last year of Countless numbers of Kind of transaction semantics trying to be wedged into the Bitcoin you to the XO And and while it's done remarkably well many of those are Shall we say unnatural pairings of semantics of the trans of the intended transaction to the actual expression of those in the in the transaction? Scripting language that's available with Bitcoin And what we wanted to do is actually step back and allow people to actually define transactions the way that they wanted to We map these into Independent currently independent Transaction families each which has their own set of rules for semantics in their own state that could be carried out So consensus and validation Consensus can occur across multiple semantic domains of transactions. It's independent And then the families can sit on top of it And and you know back to that modularity and research thing, you know, we implemented three different families which are Completely different in their semantics primarily for the purpose of testing out the modularity interface but also Because we actually find them useful So we have one that we use for Providing configuration And it's a channel for managing Information about the endpoints. We've got another which we use for scalability testing and another which is our kind of marketplace functionality So going a little bit more on that marketplace You know, it's it's not rocket science. You know, it's basically three pieces. That's Participants are the who assets or the what? and We have a concept of a holding which is a mapping from the who's to the what switch Is intended to know ownership and then Transactions essentially move things move or change or transfer ownership from one participant to another We do not just payment the bidirectional exchange And we can have multi endpoint Exchange as well with a notion of pending offers. So exchanges match offers In that point, but the real important thing here was again that that we built this out in a fairly complete way Primarily for the purpose of Ensuring that We were getting the right interfaces for the API's but also To ensure that the consensus algorithms underneath were robust enough to accommodate a Variety of different Relatively complete semantics and you know just For Testing things in the wild We're actually taking that marketplace out and we're running Internal trial and I will say internal it's open to anyone that didn't help Trials that we're running which is a okay. It's a football exchange here, but it'll really be a NCAA basketball pool kind of game Where you actually exchange shares of teams So our expectation is that that's going to give us an insight into real workloads Running in the wild on consumer for consumer kinds of applications as well And so let me just kind of conclude with a little bit of information about status current the implementations in Python again the choice on that was based on our focus on extensibility and modularity and Changing behaviors as quickly as possible That being said anyone whose employment Python knows that anything you do that's high compute needs to be moved someplace else And so all of our ECDSA and crypto and a number of other data interactions We move out all communication between validators is seabor The transactors and observers can communicate with messages and either Jason or seabor Okay, so that the most unique aspect of this and this is sort of the the central part of the experimentation was We are Looking for ways in which we can take advantage of The secure guard extensions the trusted execution environment as a way of improving performance and resilience of These blockchain algorithms, so there's been a fair amount of work in the in the academic community about how you can provide relatively simple trusted primitives that do some As like constant time improvements on The various business team fault tolerant algorithms who we wanted to apply some of those do some testing on that And also do some testing on alternative consensus algorithms. And so we have a Consensus protocol that looks an awful lot like what's currently used in bitcoins blockchain except that we replace Proof of work with something that we're calling proof of processor And so we're using SGX as a way of I guess called generating lottery tickets for leadership election in a fair way that also prevents civil attacks that way Her the discussion that I had last week or that the couple of the comments that I made last week one of the things that that We are all are very interested in is Evaluating platforms based on Workloads so that requirements can be Discussed but they get expressed in terms of of a collection of Scenarios or test cases or workloads that can be applied for Systemic testing and we've got a variety of suites of tests that we're applying We have a transaction family specifically for scalability tests. We've also done some work in Doing replay of the Bitcoin transaction log as a way of Kind of testing both resilience and Performance so we can replay that the transactions sped up in order to give us a Better feel for what happens at high transaction rates and we can run those kind of tests again on a variety of physical platforms allow us to Modify things like drop rates latency and other things like that in the network So that's I think I kept it in my ten minutes. So that's basically what we're planning on providing I think the The core of our interest is in Finding ways that we can use the kind of crypto acceleration the Intel provides and The the trust execution environments as ways of improving resiliency and performance Question About the testing do you have any way of simulating network partitions that then may be run for a certain amount of time Before a heel and then see what how things progress after that Right now partitions are done when we do when I do partitions house we do it by hand We go and enforce drop of a collection of links that the partitions a network and then reconstruct those links Okay, so so Yes, but that part is not automated yet, and that's we've we run Right now the largest test that I've been running are around 2000 validators That we're running in a in a cloud Which is enough to give us some interesting characteristics, but it does make partitioning hard And you indicated you have some control over a latency you can so can you you know dial in some Essentially for some participants to be extremely high latency While others are extremely low latency and then see how that affects consensus yes And in fact we do that a fair amount because we wanted to one of our one thing we were interested in is What are the real characteristics of forks in blockchain type consensus algorithms and so Setting up a number of connections with relatively high latency So, okay network partitions for thousand getting a partition that breaks a thousand node network is Challenging But getting some subset that have really bad latency is fairly common That's relatively easy for us to test and that's the approach we've been taking on it. All right. That's all for me then Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, any other questions for Mick. If not, we'll move on Just just really quickly. So how long do you If you're asking a question, we lost you whoever is asking that question you got cut off there They may have dropped Or they completely dropped off and make I think what they were asking is If I had to guess how long before the codes can be right available I'm hoping within the next three or four weeks We are accelerating the process as fast as we can we had not this was not something we had intended to do until probably mid-January late January, so So we're yeah, I know Everybody's got to go through their process and I know some others have gone through their process for things. So It's helpful to know Sorry, this is Dave. I accidentally got dropped I was just wanted to ask a question when when how much longer do we think it's going to be before? Intel will be able to you know post some more detailed documentation on the code Probably in the three or four week time frame if I'm knowing having run through this process with other projects It's probably in that three to four week time frame Okay, thanks, and and again, that's not a promise in any sense. It's that's About the time scale that's taken in the past. What's next Mike? All right, thanks Mike next I had asked so Stefan and Then we're working on coming up with a proposal template. We had sent them a couple of ideas starting points You know from other projects that we host I think that when you sent it out to the TSC mailing list I saw that come through about five minutes before the meeting Do you want to just give a quick? Intro to what's what's there and what you want from the group? Yeah My name is VIP in by open Unfortunately, I don't think Stefan is on the call and I think in the beginning Stefan You are here great Stefan, I think it could correct me if I'm wrong, but you had thought that this was Something else meaning it was for a new proposal rather than a proposal template Suncheon that The template that was to be created was the template to evaluate proposed and code basis against you know Like collecting criteria for proposed code basis instead of you know, the general generic template for whatever kind of project Anyway, so I took a crack at things with taking into account Stefan's input and also input from Mike and Todd and also some of the material that I read but You know what I have to say is that it's very rough And I had sent it out to the list, but I think it bounced because I sent it from a email that Was not on the list The other one was just a forwarding email, but anyway the main thing that I think That I mean, you know the one of the things is how do we Get this Situated so that it actually helps people think about their project in in in a very structured terms and Then Put it up for a proposal so that everybody can have a look at it and then Come back with commons or you know say why is this needed because it already is Fulfilled by X, you know something else so some of the thoughts I had was you know that it's not going to be a Concrete, you know fully developed thing right in the beginning it it probably would evolve So initially I thought that in the project proposal template We should say that new new project proposal Has to be sort of vetted in a public forum Like a hyper ledger technical before creating a formal project proposal and It needs a technical champion somebody who's behind the project and leads the project You know who's come up with the idea leads the project and keeps it moving forward with consensus And and so on and so forth and that is very important otherwise the project will die and wither on the vine the Proposal template needs to have certain elements which is Commonly noted as you know, basically the author's name the author plural name and contact details and A short name for the project, you know very Sucksinct name and I had come up with the acronym following Bitcoin Improvement proposal For it to be called hyper ledger improvement proposal HIP the other Elements are an abstract which is you know about a 50 word description of the project and then Full description and Substantiating The need for the project it should cover all aspects including, you know starting with transactions Some of the items covered by make just now things like confidentiality signing traceability If if any, you know, it depends on the project identity contracts The other is the effects on use of phasing clients that help with transaction formation You know similar to the wallets in in Bitcoin Effects of the on the network throughput visibility to other participants change in protocol if any criteria for network participation like this do you have to Have a special invitation to participate Then block formation and ledger formation Namely the consensus algorithm size overhead effects of the throughput and rate crypto implications Backward compatibility. What is it going to cause the hard fork or some kind of a? a split, you know in the network and The rough design and taught Some kind of a thought experiment on the probable effects And it address any possible objections that came up during the seed proposal to the list or come up with the support from the seed proposal that came up from the list and traceability testing criteria To gauge the effects on installed base Any other technical details including languages used other technology needed preferably public sources or if source from somewhere else, you know easy way to get that and The references and defense again of why this is needed Then they then a rough timeline and the resources committed Quarters or anybody else who's already volunteered for the project and their contacts if any That is the technical aura around the project the other part would be the Readability part which there would be some guidelines about the readability because communication is very essential meaning the Clarity and the explanation of abbreviations diagrams those kind of things and This should be helped by Somebody who's appointed as an editor if possible or editors To help the you know help people along in a project proposal So these were you know that this is in short The list that I had sent out on the you know to the list and also to Mike and everybody else So there's a question of already Which says something about a What do you understand as a project in the scope of the hyper ledger project? I don't I don't put any limitations on this I mean this is my current understanding that it's it's a standalone, you know a piece of work that enhances extends or somehow changes the Hyper ledger project and it can be Put in as a as a block as an atom or taken out are you guys? Do you guys hear me there seem to be some interference? I Hear you vipin as somebody's not on mute who probably should be or maybe they're waiting to ask a question Okay So that that's the initial purpose. So the main points are like, you know, it should be Basically to help people You know implement a proposal To there should be some help from the technical steering committee like our members three is You know it should cover all of those Different aspects that are in the in the list that I sent out. Otherwise you guys are free to propose other things that are not covered there You know for is obviously if If the project is Approved I mean so I didn't go into the approval process which I I don't know anything about because this is my second meeting So and I'm not affiliated with the you know I'm not a member of the steering committee or anything like that. So From a Outsiders viewpoint, this is this is what I thought it should be so Any questions or comments and I will continue to You know refine this or if I'm going the totally in a totally wrong direction, let me know Whatever Yeah, we've been if I could this is Mike Let's just to try to keep on schedule here is a possibly cast trend Maybe we can defer any discussion of this to the mailing list and I think what vipen's asking for is for the technical steering committee to weigh in and provide some guidance in terms of you know What you what you expect to see this this is a project proposal template that Eventually will be used by the TSC to evaluate new project proposals And so if somebody wants to create a new project with an hyper ledger, you know, what do you want to see? How will you want to evaluate it? Most of our projects have you know I'll call top-level projects and then they'll have even some have sub projects but a project would be you know equivalent to so to speak a repo on on on on github it could be you know Sub sub element or component that you know different repos are leveraging as a library or module You know, that is sort of goes hand-in-hand with sort of the structure that will be set up I asked the community to start thinking about this because it's good to have a sense of where this is going early on So we're not thinking about this, you know as the TSC is trying to approve a new project a new code base into the project So it's good to start thinking about this early on in conjunction as you know I know a number of discussions are underway around, you know starting code base and and other elements of you know What that will look like, but you know, even if you pick a starting code base or code bases. I should say You know at some point you have to structurally Set up projects to you know put those code bases into Action in the community and so in order to do that, you know project with proposal template is usually helpful Another element that I don't think they've been you touched on but some of our other projects look at is sort of a project life cycle I don't know if the TSC wants to go there for this project yet But you know a number of our projects have for instance a life cycle for projects So a project may be incubated it may be in an incubation state for a certain period of time until it hits certain certain Maturity levels and then it can go to a mature project or you know Some of our projects have a multi-tiered structure where it goes Some projects are actually elevated into a core project and part of that depends on sort of how the project or the TSC wants to Structure releases we have some projects that go on a release train if you're ready. You're ready if you're not you're not You miss the train and Whoever's ready for that release go forward some of our projects have a simultaneous release plan where everything goes with the exact same time and into one big release and then Yet some of our other projects have like a hybrid model where there's a core Set of projects that are on a simultaneous release and then there's a release train for Everything else around it, you know ancillary modules supporting tooling things like that that you know Require a core release in order to actually affect their release. So You know all that kind of goes hand in hand I'm just raising this right now not to confuse this situation or to raise more questions and answers But I just want to give you a sort of a preview of where many of these discussions ultimately end up going So Sorry, this is make Is there a expectation of a project as a domain of interest or as a project that's something that has a beginning and an end? I mean one of the things that it just and I'm sorry I just but then I just literally just got a chance to look at this real quickly But one of the things I was noticing is there's you know, when are you done? There's there's no sense of capturing the extent of The project and the proposal what are the boundaries when to start? What what are you what have you accomplished when you're finished? I think part of it's the open source Project nature of this, you know, it's difficult in a sort of a standards model to have a start and end point But in an open source project it continuously evolves indefinitely You know this project's a lot yeah, I yeah, which makes it more of a which makes it more of a domain of interest kind of Description and I'm just I'm calibrating my reading of Template based on that so yeah Sorry, I was just gonna say I think there's really sort of Multiple sort of facets to this You know when I think about you know open source in the nature of a project typically that's going to be a component Or potentially a set of components that you know have some defined scope and and and said set of capability and you're gonna work on those things for quite some time and you certainly need to Sustain them even when they're couldn't go done right because you're never really done And then there's You know whether it's a feature or whether it's a new You know a new thought on refactoring some capability to improve performance or security or stability or what have you? and in other words In other words a template should in other words the template should cover a range of different sizes of I Mean quote-unquote projects Well, I mean I mean Yeah, I think we just have sort of you know There there are different things and and sort of of course what we're struggling with I think initially is just what's the first thing or things You know that we'll be building and how do they how do they really fit together with one another and so forth but And so we really a little bit of a challenge initially, but I think ultimately we would have you know I think as Mike said we would have some notion of life cycle I mean even in the context of You know open source components There are you know as my as Mike mentioned there's different there's stuff that's you know core and maybe that's you know what defines You know a release of what defines certification and so forth Criteria for branding, you know use of the brand and so forth and then there are Active projects and then there are probably you know sort of deprecated projects and and maybe completely archived projects And so we would have to define a project life cycle for those components and then also I think you know to your point There are going to be you know Somebody wants to take on either a facet or a new feature and so that needs some sort of a You know proposal to go with it and and to build support within the community and to get others to say Yeah, you know who's with me and and to go off and get the TSC to sort of sanction that And we probably do want to have some sort of an incubation process that people can You know start down a particular you know fork And and work some some new refactoring or some new feature and so forth to bring You know to get that to a different level of maturity to get it to be more thoroughly evaluated or so forth And then potentially make a plea, you know to to have it be you added to the You know to the active projects or to the course So I think that that might that that sounds to me like what you were sort of looking for is that whole life cycle and then Defining sort of what the process would be. Is that right? Yeah, and I was just looking to kick off this discussion. I know nobody's ready to approve any projects right now, but right when you get a point of You know having some clarity in terms of what the code base and how you want to get started with the code And modules and things like that. I wanted people to start thinking about this because it does come up And if you start thinking about later on then it chaos when you're trying to get code approved and start so Yeah, I would encourage people to look at you know, there's some other projects we host that I'm You know we're going to point out is you know sort of fairly mature Processes around this if you go and take a look at open daylight or if you go and take a look at all scene Alliance they have pretty A strong documentation on their wikis detailing the whole process about how to propose a project the templates How the review will happen when the review mad What the review stages are things like that are probably helpful for everybody to just see you know How some other projects have done it and you can even see some of the projects that are in terms of the scope and You know unlike a standards effort. It really is more about approving of scope of a project and Knowing that you know a certain project has a certain scope that they're working on and you know that way, you know What everybody's at least doing is helpful usually Were those two um Mike open daylight and the other one all seen alliance a l l s e e and Alliance dot org and open daylight dot org if you go to the Linux Foundation collaborative projects page off our Lf website You should see the logos and links to them too if you didn't catch that Okay, and go to the wikis in particular The templates are up on the wiki so wiki dot all seen alliance org and wiki dot open daylight dot org Right the two where they have those Okay, that's a little bit more than I plan to spend on this topic. I think it's a good discussion now and Vipin's email, you know at least can kick off a thread around sort of where this should be going Some good comments already I do want to make sure Yeah, try to keep to an agenda, but sometimes The value of the current discussion takes over we only have about 20 minutes left and We had discussion on basic use cases to address and Discussion on initial proposed contributions and how things could be converged as The two primary topics. I know there have been some discussions in various forum going on I don't know you know, if somebody is prepared to lead a discussion here or Raise anything I Don't have anybody You need a question about use cases or about initial contribution Both those are the two items I had on the agenda reserved just because I think they're important topics But I didn't have anybody Tag to lead a discussion here. So And and I don't know if anybody had anything that they were prepared to say or discuss on use cases or proposed contributions And on proposed contributions, this is a show from from digital asset there right now I I'm aware of To propose initial contributions, which is one that we've we've put out about two weeks ago But since then we've also seen the IBM proposed contribution Which we've we've started looking at and and it looks like a direction that That that we can back as well and I'd like to We have some thoughts about it So so I'd like to firm those up over the next few days and send that out on the mailing list before the next meeting And make I'd be glad if you can send the presentation that the Intel presentation as well on the mailing list I'm not aware if there are any other Proposals right in there right now out there Yeah, so show I think I sent out mixed presentation with the email I sent yesterday to the TSE listen I know you're entirely you may have but take a look at the list and you should see that presentation there and It sounds so you you were responding to Ben's email I think it was last week that he sent out with a proposal. Yes Okay, so it sounds like you'll have some thoughts on that that you can share in the next few days Yep Okay Is it worth going into use cases or anything else right now or is that something that's all dependent sort of on? on that discussion I Think it's I think it's dependent on that discussion, but I would be glad if if everyone can take a look and try to see Map use and use cases that they have and so when we had a discussion, it's a quality discussion around Do we address all use cases with specific proposals? I think that's most of our feedback is going to be about that is to ensure that This is stack that that we can start using as soon as possible around use cases So I think I think it would be we'd have a quality discussion if everyone would look at it with those With that in mind Okay So should we discuss Ben's proposal at all or should we pump that to dinner Chris from IBM? Yeah, this is been I I would prefer to pump that to either next week or whenever that we got some feedback It's some also some elements of that Outdated at this point and I'd like to write up a different proposal When I have an opportunity by the way next week we have IBM has a conference and I I am going to be there. I'm not sure if Chris be there or not. So I Might not be a piece of it next Thursday Chris, will you be able to be present next Thursday for that discussion or do we lose Chris? You're mute. Oh the old double mute trick. I Thought I am muted but I am muted only only half of it So, yeah, I will be on the call It'll be 7 a.m. For me. I'll you know, I'll be all the idea. There's any web being Vegas I'm hoping that you know, we can have a substantive discussion next week on our proposal. I mean, I'm certain that you know Well, we could discuss the proposal that we sent out last week, but I think you know It's been indicated there has been some feedback and where You know sort of going through and doing another sort of Another path at it and I and I and I know that you know others probably have some feedback and again. We're happy to To to have feedback from from anyone on On the on the project whether you're on the TSC or not But again, I think the hope would be that we get something out in the next couple of days that gives people an opportunity to sort of fully digest it and And then maybe we can have something meaningful to to pursue going forward Are you thinking I hope Well, I know there's a lot of side discussions and things going on to be good if we can get that conversation out in the open as soon as possible I know there's some, you know, a lot of things that people are working through and it's hard to do that There's a lot of complexity in this initial discussion So the faster, you know, you guys whenever everybody's available to start sharing some of those plans That would be helpful So we've got the call next week Chris. Are you going to be on the call next week if then care? Okay, okay so We can still keep a discussion next week and then One other thing I was Thinking about or I should say Todd actually raised and I thought was a good idea was we did have one face-to-face meeting of the technical community prior to the to the public announcement, but Should we start planning? another face-to-face for the technical community to get together and It usually takes a lot of logistics to find a date that works for everybody Find the location and and all that so if it is of interest I would like to start Putting some feelers out to figure out, you know, if somebody wants to host Yeah, conference venue all those things I Actually think that would be good. I was also thinking that if we could get to You know, you know get to consensus on an initial starting point and a You know and a sort of a near-term set of proposed experiments and so forth that We could actually You know possibly Get everybody together, you know from an engineering perspective and do a co-located situation For some period of time, you know small, you know, maybe a week or two To actually get this thing Get the party started so to speak You know a lot of times, you know, especially with open source you're dealing with highly distributed Community and and you know getting to know what another is You know the initial Challenge that everybody sort of has but if you know if you can bring everybody together So we were exploring different ideas of you know, maybe hosting some space in Raleigh for a short period of time where we could You know invite those who Who would like to you know contribute to the initial Sprint if you will to come down and Collaborate participate maybe you can have a face-to-face as part of that to have you know prayer level Discussions and and to you know, make sure that we're set on a clear course and speed So Chris this is my sorry Do you think we know what problem we're solving yet well enough to start picking a horse? Okay, and by the way there's there I think the discussion would would be around and by and I Think if we go back and we say okay, you know We pretty much all have agreement on what communications are going to look like that would be a great starting place with it And I think it will provide a great foundation on which we can start latering The next level of work I'm just I And I will express my desire here Which is to see a Sufficiently diverse set of use cases covered. Yeah That that we make sure we're Meeting the needs of all of the participants So I I think make that that's entirely fair and I suspect that a lot of us Believe that we understand what we have in terms of Vision for for what use cases and so forth I think you're probably absolutely right though that what we lack is broader consensus amongst, you know us collectively as the Hyperledger project community An agreement about what that said is I I think IBM and certainly I tend to share her I think that The thought that you just expressed about you know satisfying a blood set of use cases Certainly, that's what we've been looking at that. There is if you explore the IBM proposal And the code that we released and linked into the Hyperledger through the read that Mike I should say I linked into the Hyperledger read me You'll find you know sort of a white paper that describes what problems we think we're trying to solve and There's an extensive discussion around some of the use cases Certainly at least from a higher level perspective, I don't know that we get into specific applications, but You know, I think certainly we'd love to get feedback on some of those thoughts You know, it's out there and and again whether the feedback is Shared, you know just with IBM or preferably shared in the Hyperledger community, you know, we'd love to have it I think we are I think I agree with Chris. We we understand the use cases and and I didn't see any Disagreement in the face-to-face around what the use cases are. There's there's still a bit of a disagreement on what what is the best technical way to To address the use cases, but I think we're at a point that we can we can start agreeing On the first steps forward in a way that would stay broad enough not to silo us off into specific use cases So I have a feeling again to show from to that. I have feeling that at least I'm and what are we trying to solve? I think we're there is pretty much consensus and and Those use cases that I didn't give as an example are But the same as we'd expect to see in any proposal. Oh, can I put? You guys on the spot sounds like shawl and IBM you guys are talking about this proposal and coming up with one that you're going to share in three or four days or something Can I put you guys on the spot to? Talk through this next week for the agenda. Yeah, definitely. Yeah This show then we'll try to send In advance. It's kind of a week, but we'll try to send in events on the mailing list our thoughts So people have time to respond to that That'd be good And it sounds like from mixed comments anything you can add in terms of the use cases that you're trying to address would probably helpful along with that proposal First have you helped have you posted the link to that document on the mailing list? Yeah, I think I probably have it in some notes Conversations with John I don't know if we posted to list, but I'm happy to do that That'd be great. Thanks You're referring to the the white paper that you posted on github that right Chris That's correct. Yeah Yeah, and and you know, I'll just kind of Agree with with both Chris and this is David David bowl to come organ, you know having read through that both I agree with Pretty much with what Chris and shawl stated that I think you know what they've kind of laid out in the white paper at a high level at least You know seems pretty consistent. So I think that's a good certainly a starting place for people understand But we're trying to achieve here. Okay, so Chris if you can post that list or a link out to the mailing list Maybe that would be helpful just to get that in front of everybody so people can start to comment if That's I agree with that. Yep agreement And in fact, you know, I mean, you know one way we can You know again, this is you know, we're starting a you know a project here you know, this is this white paper represents IBM thinking and You know what went into some of the design decisions we had for you know, the code that we are proposing to contribute But it might be worthwhile that we as a community also develop something at a high level that essentially Try to do the same for whatever we create. So, you know, I don't necessarily think we want to start with that The gate, I think we could argue a lot of the pros, but Certainly it's a way of helping to shape some of the some of the thought process So I'm happy to share this and if we want to You know start down the path of creating and editing something that tries to outline what we think are use cases and And how they're addressed and so forth, you know, we could contemplate doing that as well serves In conjunction with the code that we start developing I Will say okay This is Todd Ruck. I think that's a great idea. Take a good a good collaborative canvas for that For that use case and the and the high level design is going to be really great This is this is Ram Jagadishan. I agree with that. I think that sounds like a great idea We have a broader set of use cases such as IOT in mind. So it would be kind of good to have a broader discussion around You know, what are the use cases that we would like to address in the larger project? I've seen a lot of projects through this very discussion and I think that's a very helpful thing to do in order to Get everyone into the same mindset and also to help communicate externally What the project is trying to do and and what it's focused on so if we can get there at some point that would be of the upstanding all right, so um, I Guess what we'll do then since we have a couple minutes lecture or we'll wrap up We will focus the entire call next week if since I don't have any other agenda items on this particular topic and if I can put IBM a DH on the spot to Kick off that discussion if anybody else has other agenda items I want to discuss or other proposals that I'm not aware of that are floating around Let me know as soon as possible. It's just because I I don't want to skip agenda topics that people want to see from the TSC So any TSC members if you've got something you want to talk through and let me know I'm just sort of winging it right now based on what I'm hearing from people until we get a TSC chair who can officially sort of Organize things at this point though if you do have something else you'd like to see on the agenda you can tell me now or we can Discuss it over email and I can slot it in for next week But I do think the key topic here is to start trying to get through the discussion of proposals and how we Get started on the code base. Are there any other topics for next week? Okay, and for the TSC members We you you now have the nomination list. We have two candidates a manual send me an email Apparently, he's offline today and couldn't join our website David at Accenture It's not main email that a manual couldn't join today, but there is another candidate. We will have a Condorsed vote link sent out to the TSC from Todd or I most likely Todd but we'll get that out to kick off the voting and I like the TSC chair, okay Anything else before we close? That's great Okay, we're good Okay, sounds good. I will talk to everybody next week and look for an email from Shaw or Chris or Ben or somebody with some sort of a new proposal Well, thanks Mike. Thanks everyone. Thanks Mike. Yep. Thank you