 Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to Senate Education on Tuesday, March 26th. Today, we are doing a couple of different things. We are still spending a lot of time, a lot of afternoons and mornings on the Senate floor, moving bills. But we missed the app, 77th presentation. Our House counterparts invited us to participate in one a while back. We couldn't do it, so we have some students with us today, and we're looking forward to all of you then, Austin Davis, the Director of Government Affairs, Lake Champlain Regional Chamber of Commerce, without tax and education issues, and we have an amendment for 220, Senator Renner, and we'll have a little conversation about CTEs, and we'll wrap it up after that. So, Ms. Holland, would you, who is first? I'm going to be first. Sure. And what other slides are they, they're not like slides that we can project? Are they in your packet? In our packet. Okay. You guys, I think, because everyone prepared to kind of, yes, exactly. So, which group? 10 years for that 77th? You just need to let me know when you want the... Yeah, I'll just let you know. We can go to about 205. 205, okay. Great. Floor's yours. Thank you. Hi, everyone. I'm Lindsay Holman, my pronouns are she, her, I'm the Executive Director of the Learning, we're a nonprofit based here in Vermont. And we are here to share with you about an event that happened on December 7th here with the reason why we had the event, which was to celebrate the 10th anniversary of AFT-75, so I wanted to just kind of frame it and then I'll share the goals. And then a lot, most of us can be turned over tonight, my colleagues over here, and we also have a video we want to share with you from the event. So, as you know, Vermont, bless you, has been a national and international leader in education. And I want to just highlight a few of the key moves that Vermont made that led to AFT-77 flexible pathways in 2013. Well, I'll talk in before this, but one little place I'm going to start is in 2007, with the publication of the Future of Education in Vermont. And this articulated the vision of the State Board of Education and the then Commissioner of Education and identified five components of a desired state to be addressed. Student-centered learning, leadership, flexible learning environments, engaged community partners, and indicators of success. In 2009, the Vermont Legislature developed and passed what became AFT-44. This contained the first use of the phrase, flexible pathways, the graduation, and established the goal of a 100% graduation rate by 2020. AFT-44 was the basis for the statutory language that would become AFT-77 of 2013. AFT-77 of 2013 was passed in July of 2013 to ensure that all Vermont students have access to high quality educational experiences that will prepare them for life after graduation. And AFT-77 is grounded in what we now know about learning and the brain. We'll also seek to make school relevant to our changing world and ensure equitable opportunities for all of Vermont's youth. So, what is teaching and learning booklet in Vermont through systems that embrace student-centered practices made possible through AFT-77 and expanded upon through other landmark legislation in Vermont? Our goal today is to share that, and we want to share the impact that AFT-77 has had on the educational landscape of Vermont over the past decade to support deeper learning for our students and school communities. And we want to urge you to recommit to the spirit and intent of this legislation as you think about current and future legislative priorities for Vermont too. So, I'm going to turn it over to Ethan from Olivia if you're going to lead you through a little activity. And please note, if the movies are anything bothering you at all, we'll just close it up. Great. Please, want to pull up an extra chair? Yes. I'll send it. I'm Olivia, Siri. I use she her pronouns. Hi, my name is Ethan Sanmore. I use she her pronouns. So, me was just like to ask you guys to think of like a specific meaningful or engaging learning opportunity that you've had in your life and like when you are maybe most engaged and just really like bring it to life in your mind. What did it look like and how did it make you feel? So, we'll give you a second for that. So, now we can just do like a quick couple minutes circle share around. Like, you can describe what like moment you thought of how it made you feel. Yeah. I'm happy to break the ice. I just think I thought back to sixth grade and we had a terrific sixth grade teacher, great teacher all the way through. But this particular teacher did a big end of the year play with all the students, and it was just great in terms of building student confidence that you do all sorts of things out of our comfort zone is very encouraging and warm about it. I just remember it quite well. I can go that's because I could tell Senator machine is still thinking. Sure. Yeah, so a meaningful experience so yeah college I took class it was a night class about war of the rings, and it was it was a English lit class, really just for a few extra credits and took the class for granted and I assumed everything was going to go totally fine and so I didn't put as much effort into it. Compared to all my other classes, ended up getting a C in the class because the professor took it very very seriously and basically just learned to don't take any subject matter for granted. It's a literacy bill today up in the Senate and it's been making me think about how I learned to read and I, I couldn't help but go back to my first grade class at Central school in South Wellington, witness Kauffman, who would I just remember her kind of being next to me and like helping me sound out my words. And that's how I learned to read. My sixth grade history teacher, really motivated, totally into the topic, totally into the kids, all the kids, all of us, getting something out of person basis. I could see right then that teaching was a profession, and not all teachers are creating equal, but this guy was something really special. Thank you for sharing, is there a Senator that's on? Yeah, I'm not sure if Senator Williams are you there? Let me accept the way. Okay, thank you. I mean, inclusive. And maybe just think of like one word that, like, you know, some of these experiences like having common. Yeah, I personally noticed like around education, which is very important. I was just saying growth, like I feel like growth, learning how to read or realizing that can't take classes for granted. I just think that word came up. The word that comes up for me is respect. I, some of my most important teachers, at the time I didn't necessarily like them very much because they thought of me for hard, but I respected them and I think that's kind of what stuck with me for time. Growth. I agree with you. That's not a good word for it. I like growth, respect. You repeat the question. Yeah, just think of like, maybe one word that you noticed these experiences like how. First word was respect. So I respect. People who are highly motivated. Subject now. Thank you. Thank you. You want to do amazing. Well, we're going to transfer you to the video and then we'll do that. Yeah, so thank you both. So on December 7th, you all received an invitation. I know not everyone was available to attend. And we were here at the state house youth and adults from across the state in the variety of roles to celebrate the 10th anniversary of 77 flexible pathways. There's a planning team that planned that event on December 7 that consisted of the agency of education at the Simmons this year as a representative of that team. Carol and we're from McClure Foundation, the Vermont principal association. Ashley's Newton is on zoom from Vermont. Virtual learning cooperative. And up for learning my organization as well. So there was a group of us that came together to realize this is the 10th year. And we want to make sure that we lift up the spirit and intent of this really important legislation. And have a day where we can all gather together to learn from the past 10 years and then think ahead to what the next 10 years might bring. So if it's okay for me to share my screen. I'm going to share a video that highlights that day. I think there's even more about the upgrade. Can I mute or will the sound come through? I'll try and play. I'll try and mute it. We'll have Morgan unmute it. Do you have yours now? Maybe you should. If you turn yours off. Yeah. There we go. 10 years ago the flexible pathways legislation was passed right here. With the intent to create and students roles as active learners. This shift required different practices such as personalized learning plans and flexible pathways to graduation. A lot of the things, a lot of my strengths. I realized through renaissance program we're at such a high level. Through renaissance program we're at such a high level. When I went into a personalized learning program I was at such a high level. Access, right? I get students to have success in school. When it's making sure that flexible pathways and these other programs are just available to some schools or some kids. Access for also ways to engage everyone. We have our youth in the dark into their education. And let's talk about that survey. Did you just talk about that survey? All stuck in the operating methods and mindsets that have gone back for many years. Connecting students to real workforce pathways. Getting to like see the impact of the application. Something like that. It acts to be such an outstanding success. I'd like to thank you all. I'm American. We wanted to give you a feel for the day and thank you for letting us use your place of work for that great celebration and sharing opportunity. So now we're going to get here from this whole group here about what it looks like for them. We have folks here from various stages in their educational journey. I just want to start, well I think we can go in order. I can read Maisie's when we get there. We have our youth that cannot be here because she's actually at UVM in her class right now. So I have something to read from her. So we can advance probably a couple now. And we'll go to Olivia. So yeah, I threw myself from here, but well again. So my name is Olivia Siri. I'm she or pronouns. I'm a freshman at CBU high school. I personally have benefited a lot from 77. And feel like I've been able to extend my learning on a lot of topics in a lot of different ways. You see my slide. There's UC Scout on there, which is like an online program through the University of California. I have a program on there because he came to my school and gave a little presentation and I was able to miss class to go to that. And there's other opportunities like that at CBU. There's the cover slide to my my PLP. And so I'm kind of going to go into detail on a couple of things that I've been able to experience. Last year I had the opportunity to take an accelerated math class through UC Scout. And it's allowed me to skip into a higher level class at CBU. And then recently I enrolled myself in another extra math course through UC Scout. And I will finish that in August. And as a sophomore, I'll be going if everything goes right, I'll be going to AP calculus next year. I've also been able to work with up for learning. And sometimes I have to step out of class to attend meetings. My teachers have been like spectacular at working with my schedule. And they just like supported me the whole way through. They've offered like a bunch of alternatives. So I can say up to par and classroom while also getting to experience opportunities like this. Inside of the school act 77 has made it so that we have access to a PLP, which is a personalized learning portfolio. And CBU also offers a class called next seminar, which is a flexible learning environment course. In the future, I am looking forward to taking that class where hopefully I can do an independent study of my choice, which will be most likely focused around youth leadership and voice. Act 77 is really important to me because it's allowed me as well as many other people to go through personalized courses with support from the school. And it's made me feel a lot more seen like in the classroom by my educators and has definitely helped me to become really excited about my learning. I've enjoyed learning from a young age, but once I started taking the advantage of the resources that we have in Vermont with act 77, my level of engagement has definitely increased. And yeah, overall without act 77, I don't think I'd be able to access programs that I really enjoyed tonight. So thank you. And our next slide. Okay. Hi, my name is Ethan Sanmore. I use he and pronouns and I'm also a freshman at CBU. Act 77 opened up so many more opportunities for me as a student that I probably couldn't get elsewhere. CBU rise program reflective interest based student experiences, give students the opportunity to explore interest within and outside of the school community. And I'll be helping teach younger kids how track meets work what goes into them and then putting on a track me for them. And I'll also be exploring small businesses in the chin county area. Other rise sessions include hiking photography, Dungeons and Dragons, like garden CPR certification, and it really ranges to all kinds of student interests to make sure every student in the CBU building can spend the last two weeks of the school year doing something that they're interested and passionate about. The next thing from act 77 POPs or personalized learning portfolios are a way for students to share their accomplishments and goals with teachers, parents, advisors. And students can also share other important parts of their lives like sports, family, friends, hobbies, anything that they really want to share on their portfolios they can share. Students, me included, sometimes have a difficult time focusing in a classroom setting and building connections with their teachers. And with act 77. It's, it gives students the opportunity to create connections with teachers or adults in the building and exploring exploring interest that they couldn't explore cooked up in a classroom learning the typical school stuff. Personally, myself, I want to be a future business owner, and my ride session gives me that opportunity to learn what goes into making that hope of my reality. And for many other students rise gives them rise gives them that same opportunity. And I believe that's what's so important about flexible pathways and act 77 is with opportunities created from act 77. Students can really show their creativity and express themselves in a way that they probably couldn't anywhere else. That's awesome. Good luck with the track meet. Olivia next slide. And so I am Olivia Schroenberg I use she her pronouns and I'm a sophomore at my player high school down the road. Yes, so my journey with flexible pathways really started in like middle school, which is kind of different than other people's like in seventh grade was when I was really first exposed to like all the available like learning opportunities and I recognized that other kids used to not have these when they were like a few years ago, before X and reason was passed. Like one of these was involving like CPS the organization which is like cultivating pathways sustainability, which is connected with after learning. And it helped me make sustainability class that is now taught at the middle school for all different for fist six and a day. I like the opportunities that I had like creating the curriculum and like going out in public and learning about how sustainability is like in like how that is implemented into schools and should be implemented more often. And it's it was really interesting just to learn about the impacts that schools have on the environment, and I learned a lot related to science. Yeah, so that was something three was when I was part of that. And it also encouraged me to take like facilitation rules from seventh grade and beyond. I became more of an extroverted person I feel like because I was so used to presenting due to like me having to present at these meetings related to the class that I was on board with making at middle school. And like my teachers are very supportive like excusing me from school like giving me opportunities to like of leadership and facilitation roles more often throughout my school day. And then now high school at MHS. Yeah, so these are the different opportunities that are at high school on this list. I took this from the website. I have not done like most of these because I'm only a sophomore most of these are available to juniors and seniors. But one of the things that my school does that I think is really like amazing is the PLS, which is a personal learning study. And it's kind of similar to the rise thing that you guys do it. And it's basically like a self paced course of your own choosing for any kind of credit that you want. And one of my friends gardener on the side right there. It's a little bit of a silly picture. He did a PLS for his cost country season this fall. And it's like, for if you can do it for once for one semester for both semester start the school year. And he got a credit by running and keeping track and making his own like some of this like tests for something that he was personally interested in. And he got credit for so didn't have to take the school job classes because he doesn't tend to do well in larger environments like that. And it was really cool like seeing how some of my other friends have done these to like using their interests to really give them like using that to their advantage in class if they do not work well with personal like in class settings. And I really think that act 77 is so important. It's allowed me like I said earlier to become a more extroverted person, more confident and like give me more opportunities to do things like this. And like another thing that is up on their CBLs, like which are community based learning. And that's something that you can do. But again during the year. So I have signed up to do one for next year, my junior year, where you can like shadow the kind of job that you would like to pursue in the future as possibility to kind of see if you would be interested in that field actually like seeing an action. So what I'm going to do next year is shadow social worker. And I because I've kind of been inspired by like the practices and the like sustainability work that I worked on middle school really carried me along and helped me realize that I feel a connection with working with people. And so I think it's really cool that I can utilize that and have it be a part of my school work where I can like really explore see if it's something that I really want to pursue. And I think it's very important for I kind of looked out with my brain and how it works in the school setting so I, I can usually adapt to many different teachers learning or teaching styles. So many of these things that are available at my school are really good opportunities, like for alternative teaching methods and learning methods for an occupational arts, which I think is very important type of method in schools. And yeah, it's pretty much. Thank you. Wow, you're good. Next up is Mary slide. Oh, good. Hi guys, I'm Mary and I'm a junior at Newsy High School and Center for Technology at six. I thought the CT was for that. So this is my journey with at 77. So, Newsy has this class called I lap where you can do anything you want and like, you can take whatever class like do whatever you want and you can get credit for it. So for a freshman year, I did that class because I want to have more professional care. And I took for the first semester I did Japanese. Because Newsy doesn't have a Japanese class. So I want, I really want to take Japanese that you're on the line. And they paid the class for me. That was like $200. And I thought that was really nice. And then the next semester, I wanted to learn about forensic science. So they gave me a bunch of books and pictures and stuff for me to do that. And then I did a bunch of peace studies and throughout the process, the teachers really supported me in my brain. And during all that, I realized I also want to do something in the healthcare setting. But the problem was that Newsy doesn't have any classes that cater to that. And so my sophomore year, I did pre-tech three at CTE. And that class prepares you, it's like it's the human services. So it prepares you to a bunch of human services like cooking, child education and the healthcare setting. And during all that, it was very hands-on. And I got to learn a lot of stuff and a lot of careers that I can possibly have in the future. And then now in my junior year, I did the health professions program at CTE. And these those classes have helped me prepare for my future goal as a healthcare worker. And I really like how friends on health professions have been so far. Like, recently we just did football to me, so I did a bunch of blood drops. If you guys need any testing, I got to do it. And then we also work on mannequins as patients as you can see in that picture. But in that one, we went to the Vermont Technical College and we did a bunch of hair on mannequins. So that mannequin was pregnant and we're giving delivery. I mean, probably her give delivery. And on top of that, I'm also taking a CCV class at... I'm also able to take CCV classes as a high schooler. Those are college classes. And the class I'm taking right now is the statistics. And in my senior year, I plan on doing early college. So that gives me one year of college. And all of these opportunities have challenged my learning and helped me take classes that I otherwise wouldn't have able to at regular school. And otherwise, my classes would also just spend the regular slideshows where she and listen to the teacher. But not everyone is like that. I know I don't like that. But I've been into all this, all thanks to AXL7. Great. Thank you. How are we doing with time and witnesses? Okay, we've got Ivy and Donovan. And you made it really quick. And we wanted to give you some time for questions. We pushed our witness to 15. Great. Great. We can do it. We can do it all. Ivy's next. The next slide. Hello, my name is Ivy Manchester. I'm a student at Otter Valley Union High School. And I'm a part of the Musa Maloo program. Musa Maloo is a three-year program. So there's lower Musa Maloo, which is for ninth graders. And it's kind of like an introduction to like what we do in upper Musa Maloo. This is my final year. I have been able to learn all kinds of things like rock climbing, winter camping. Things go well next week. I will be a goldeners first aid certified. I would not have been able to be a part of this program without AXL7. And it's changed my life, to be honest, like become a lot more confident and willing to take risks. And just being here, I would never be able to do without like confidence this program has given me. And so Musa Maloo gives students an opportunity to like learn in a less traditional way. We're still learning all our subjects, like social studies and science, but it's just mixed in with everything else. I learned about Musa Maloo when I was in third grade because we have elementary averages where we reach out to local elementary schools. We bring them here to Otter Valley for a day and we teach them about what we've been learning. So I was able to do that when I was in third grade. And ever since then, I wanted to be a part of this program. Even though like I was in third grade, I didn't pick up a lot during that. I was excited to be outside, but Musa Maloo is so much more than just going outside and like fooling around and whatever. Like I've learned life skills that many of my peers would never know. You're doing great. You're doing so well. I want to get out there on the canoe with you. It's amazing. Yeah, that was my overnight, the first overnight this year. And we spent the night out on the Connecticut River, which was amazing. And then I had a rock climbing trip, which is what second picture is about. And I went back last summer and climbed that cliff with my uncle. I wanted to know what it existed without Musa Maloo. And then the picture of me is on Mount Washington, which was the day after my 16th birthday. So we went up and spent the night and we almost got to the top, but it was too foggy. And I would have never been able to do that without at 77 and Musa Maloo. So, thank you. Okay, next up is Donovan, who's on Zoom. And it'd be the next slide. We just need to unmute Donovan. Can you all hear me? Yeah. All right. Hello guys. My name is Donovan. I use he him pronouns. I'm currently a senior at Richford junior senior high school, but I'm also a freshman at CCV. Before the early college program diamond. On top of doing early college, I'm also a part of the free degree program, which basically means that if I say at CCV for 2 years, I can basically get a free associates degree. I kind of just jumped right into that already. So. But so the way how I've been able to get into these programs is, you know, through at 77, letting me be able to take a step further into my education and rather than spending my time at, you know, doing my traditional senior year at high school. I can really expand what I'm wanting to learn right now. And just pursue what I really want to do. That's why I couldn't come in today because I'm currently 1 of my classes is for me to do an internship. And that's where I currently am at the moment at my internship location. On top of being able to further pursue higher education my senior year. I've been able to still partake in like school activities. The bottom 2 pictures on my slide are from my final dance season this year ended last month. Those are me and my team shortly before we went to go perform our palm routine. And then my instruments, those are what I play in the school band that they still let me partake in. And finally, something else that being able to go do early colleges is. During like my free time, I'm still able to work and like earn money so that when I transfer out of CV and go to pursue further call or further education for like my bachelors. I can save up that money and I currently work. Sorry at 1 of my so sorry, I'm all over the place. My internship is a part of notch, which has a whole bunch of different buildings and facilities. And 1 of their places is main street market, which is right below me actually. And that's where I work during the day outside of my school hours. So, yeah, that's basically a lot that has helped for me and be able to achieve outside of. Normally just sitting in a classroom all day learning in the traditional high school. Very cool. Thank you. And finally, the next slide is maybe who was hoping to be here on zoom, but she got you and had a class that she had to attend. And so what you've heard so far is the journey from basically from freshman year, even middle school, talking about middle school to now lazy. Who is post high school and is in her first year at the end and what she said, she said, I wanted to share a bit about my journey through high school and college. I feel so incredibly lucky to have been able to learn under at 77 in high school and opportunities like dual enrollment and flexible pathways. I entered college with skills, knowledge and experience and college credits that I would never have been able to attain solely through high school. I was able to become a strong leader and public speaker. I was prepared for networking and creating meaningful connections, and I had a chance to explore my interests. In high school, I co taught and plan courses, which eventually led to a finished curriculum being implemented throughout the state. I was at my own little tutorial, maybe graduate from Harvard. I graduated last year, feeling ready to take on jobs, classes and realize situations. This learning was a progression throughout high school and is what makes me so grateful to have grown up in Vermont. It inspires me to push for education standards like ours all around the country. Thank you. That's making Frankie was currently in her class at UCM. And I just want to we have it before we turn it over to questions. I want to turn it over to Ashley who's on zoom and then Natalie. And we can see what time we have Carolyn and to hear a little bit of the perspective from you heard from us to hear the adult perspective as well so actually over to you. And there's no slide for this one so you can just just Ashley. Hi, good afternoon everyone. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to share my experience. As noted earlier, I am the co director of the virtual learning cooperative and going to chime in on the act 77 and the impact of flexible pathways for virtual and online learning. So act 77 is important to continue to champion because it promotes equitable access to education by providing students with a diverse learning opportunities, one of which includes online and virtual at. This is particularly important for students who may not thrive in a traditional classroom settings or who require flexibility due to personal circumstances. We heard that from many of you who shared your educational experience. What were those moments when you got to interact in a play when someone sat down next to you to teach you how to read. These are the exciting parts. Act 77 supports personalized learning, allowing students to learn at their own pace and in ways that suit their individual learning styles. Online and virtual learning platforms can offer tailored experiences catering to each student's needs and interests. We are as excited when students come to us and say I have a passion to learn about this. Let's create an independent project, or we don't offer AP physics or we don't have this class, but this is an area that I want to look at. Can you offer this class and we do addition which we've seen today from the fine young students who have presented act 77 is essential for developing executive functioning skills, such as digital literacy, communication, collaboration and critical thinking. Act 77 support for these modes of learning ensures that students are prepared for the demands of the modern workforce. In addition to this, in our increasing digital world proficiency and online and virtual environments is essential act 77's emphasis on these modes of learning help prepare students for higher ed and future careers, where online tools and technologies are in use. In conclusion, from my experience here at my virtual learning cooperative act 77 has promoted access to an equity personalized learning and the development of these executive functioning skills. It fosters innovation, adaptability, resilience and continuity and education. I look forward to seeing what the next 10 years of act 77 will provide to the state and to the students that we serve. Thank you. Emily. Hi, I'm not really so I'm the director of secondary education initiatives at the community college in Vermont. And you've probably, you've heard a number of students talking about CCV already today and we're so happy for the role we can provide and supporting students through their journey that CCV. We're offering 150 classes in high schools and technical centers just this semester so it's done wonders in terms of providing access for students. There's sort of three areas where I think act 77 has had benefits across the state students programs and partnerships. So for students, since 2013, more students have access to opportunities that allow them to connect their educational journey to their personal goals. They can empower students to find their purpose and connect with mentors, community members, teachers, employers and others to help them envision and create lives for themselves in the future in Vermont. As far as programs are concerned at CCV, we see students from middle school access days, right through dual enrollment, fast forward, which is our partnership with technical centers, and then early college and then the free degree promise. These programs allow students to start as early as sixth grade and access free opportunities right through an associate degree program. So we're so happy to be able to allow students access to post secondary education. And then in terms of partnerships, flexible pathways really open the doors for different constituents to start working together. CCV works in partnership now with almost every high school and technical center in the state. But we also see parents connecting with school counselors, community leaders, providing opportunities to schools, and then more integration between the colleges across the state in terms of supporting students. Act 77, for example, says that if students earn dual enrollment credit at one college in Vermont, all the other colleges that participate in the program have to accept that credit. So it's created some wonderful partnerships across the state. And I think continuing to promote Act 77 for the next 10 years will provide just an amazing opportunity for students, schools and the communities in Vermont. Thank you. And I might have exceeded my one minute. Does the committee have any questions? Right. We're getting close to, I want to get people to breathe or wear next witness. Nothing right now. Okay. Anything else? Yes. Okay. Would you like to go? And then we'll just talk about our last slide, which is recommendation to report and then we'll open it for questions if there are any. Yep. And we will be done by 215. Hi, everyone. We're executive director of the more foundation, we're an affiliate of the Vermont community foundation that works to close opportunity gas here in Vermont by making post-secondary education the easy choice. And it has been a no brainer for us to support the equitable and meaningful implementation of this legislation for the past 10 years. And that's been the bulk of our work as a grant anchor here in Vermont. We've learned a lot through supporting the implementation of this bill in the past 10 years. Our grant making is focused both on supporting the capacity of CCB to deliver some of these programs alongside the full continuum of youth and secondary education programs as Vermont's access institution. But it also looks like dozens and dozens of easy access mini grants to schools all across the state. Many grants that are in alignment with the occupational projections data coming out of the administration that are not permanent labor. This bill informs really almost everything that we do and 10 years in the biggest learning that we have. Number one, there are huge strides being made right now in equitable access to any of these flexible pathways. And for us as a foundation that means we're excited to recommit at this anniversary as well. And the same way we hope legislators do too. So if I may just ask on that theme. So if we brought some of the poorest high schools. We have the same quality in terms of presentations and access you think. Well, I think what you're sort of your sort of from your vantage point. And the way that the clear foundations and best. So flexible pathways means a lot of different things to different people right for some people it's a mindset and a cultural approach to learning for others it's a set of state administered and funded programs. For others it's a school based program and for some folks in the public school system with the part of their job title, right. And flexible pathways is showing up in all schools and when we assessed some of the access data that is available statewide for some state administered programs we've been really excited to see things like a 70% increase in early college enrollment at CCB over the past 18 months and double the number of first generation college students and digging into okay where are there still gaps for station among young men. Some caps regionally at the rest of the state, and where there are gaps for those young people doing, we were just invited to a national to participate in a big foundation supported national movement to equity scale accelerated pathways to free associate degrees and they're helping us get closer to approximate boys and understand what that work. Thank you. So if we could go back to the slides for a moment and then we'll be back it up. And while we're going back to the slides I just want to share in my previous role as I was a educator you haven't heard the educator voice really. So I was a 15 year middle level educator before I joined up for learning. So I just want to share really quickly that I was grateful to be part of the public education system here in Vermont both pre and post act 77. And in 2009 backed up by all that strong vision and policy that I shared earlier. I was basically gifted the opportunity to co found the Academy which was a school within a school of Essex middle school. This was transformation education and these practices were celebrated and really encouraged. And that means that it wasn't, I think, you know, we often think of high school journey. So actually some of us that all seven through 12th graders will have a personalized learning plan that allows them to explore flexible pathways. And it should go beyond it should go before seventh grade to so these practices are best practices. So I just wanted to share that piece and one quick story before we get to our recommendations and then we'll definitely be wrapped up. So even before 2009 before at 77 from 2013, the young people that I worked with in fifth through eighth grade have personalized learning plans proficiency based assessment and were provided opportunities to explore different pathways. These are fifth through eighth graders. This is before 77. So these are practices that we know are really important for all young people and their equitable practices. And the other day I ran into father of a student that I had a decade, almost a decade ago as a middle school learner Kayla. She was very passionate about drawing and writing and I ran in and social justice and during her student led personalized learning plan conferences that happened throughout the year and I was her advisor her family and I would sit and talk about how she can enhance her skills and really pursue her passions and work on the issues that were challenges. Well, now for past four and nine years later, I ran into her father, she's now a junior at Savannah College of Art and Design pursuing writing and drawing. And I think that that just shows as you heard from all these stories here that when given the opportunity to explore these passions and not saying stop writing on the desk or but you know writing and doodling or whatever it is that when people have the opportunity to explore passions. They, they actually follow those pathways and here she is in her final year at staff. So recommendations came out of this. The day the celebration, you can see them all here, you can see kind of who was here by the numbers and the data that came out of the day, along with the commitments that we hope to see ripple out. But really what it means is continuing to explore support and strengthen connections between schools and community partners. We need to continue to develop and share and create resources for 77 related concepts that came out loud and clear throughout the day. And we want to ensure there's increased access to flexible pathways, particularly for those that are in smaller programs at schools, or for supporting innovative individuals or schools that don't have as many or as you said are resources other schools so we need to increase access to 15 questions is great. We have other witnesses coming in so during the break if people have questions they can mix and mingle with the students and we'll come back welcome back everyone to send an education. We understand that you are. Mr Davis making around talking to people a little bit about for my property tax system with some recommendations and thoughts. I'm going to come a little bit yesterday evening afternoon and he put some ideas so it's, we know that there's this this general conversation that's going to is happening is going to happen. A bunch of bills coming out of the house. So we appreciate you coming in, sharing your thoughts with us. And so we'll give you the floor for about 20, 30 minutes and then we'll jump in for questions. Great committee wants to throw with you. Sometimes just through the questions out. Yeah, I'd love to keep it a conversation conversation. Beautiful. Can't wait. So for the record, Austin Davis director of government affairs fully championed chamber. And I want to start this. I'll try to be, I had a new fatality set that I spent an hour and a half with this house education committee last week and we don't have that much time, but I do want to super reef acknowledges the limitations. We start out here and that is the way chambers not expert on education policy. We do a lot of tax and economic development and workforce policy, or certain of our members ability to pay as well as their employees ability to pay. And for taxpayers in the day. We're, you know, all by the top of the picture, not necessarily the nitty gritty book, we can get into some of the nitty gritty there. Because so many folks I've never actually testified for this committee before. I just kind of get a quick intro to the lifetime playing chamber, where a regional chamber of commerce, serving the Northwestern portion state, seeking to create an economic opportunity for also very good ownership, to promote a robust diversity of this or economy cultivating community leadership and nurturing or talent through the programs you can see out here. It's looks like our regional marketing organization that is converting over leads for roommates and conferences in our hotel spaces that helps fill shoulder seasons and keep our robust rooms and meals tax and revenue coming in. Talent TV to serve professionals work and some of our other talent development programs, ranging from internships to many other things, leadership development for aspiring CC staff as well as CC staff and our business accelerator. This is so it's great way to land actually want to end on because that's actually a 40, but that's a covers every county, and it's a matter of how, despite the fact that we are a regional chamber of commerce we have statewide programming we try to include every county in the state of our over 1100 members or so we have members in every single county the state because of the services we operate through hello bro into the now defunct from our convention bureau and many other services like that so there are a lot of different doors that folks enter the chamber through and you might have done that so yourself not realize if you're entering the Lake Champlain Chamber we've a big breach. Can I do a quick question on that but what I always wanted to know this but what when you say regional is it is it mainly. Our counting up in. Yeah, so we started the Northwestern first like modern state. A lot of Franklin County to ask how many of the loyal members. What I actually split this describes our coverage is the greater Farland in metro area, which would overlap perfectly actually it's this early 30 but the bureau leader statistics for like to mess South right in metro area is exactly almost when you do a heat map for members will be covered. Yes, yes, so when I was a large part of our membership, we actually operate a lot of the welcome centers around the state, including the ones in the islands. So he had another thing we do. But yeah, we cover all that really anything within a 40 and it drives the ground. I'll just say knowledge I don't want to go into some of the best use of my time, the levers in Vermont's education fund, which was provided to you by the joint fiscal office as provided under statute. And it's suggesting the staff issues mandating mergers that's all of our services. You know all of those levers that you can pull to address this current funding crisis. We encourage you to follow those diligent money. However, I'm not here to recap those or keep running those. What we are here to do is talk about our perspective on, you know, just the economy at large and our how it ties education funding more acutely and housing growth and brand list. Because we're really talking about the sustainability and stability of our tax base. We really need to remove perverse incentives for individuals communities and that also happen economy wide scale need to visit current policy that is working against itself. And we did incentivize current growth as well as the items in the slide before, which are about right sizing and cuts. Our decisions, you know, as said, on each other, growth and education spending is a sustainable and you see more transparent, less better link to local decisions and better links to the economy. Growth and tax reach has not should not be mistaken as growth and tax base. I'd say that most of our tax base growth we've talked about in this building over the last decade has really been about reach. Sorry, can you just clarify for me what tax reach means? Yeah, so I think a great example of, you know, here folks sample forms that were brought in our tax base by bringing in cloud based computing, you know, and letting the sales tax on that. That's not true base growth necessarily that might be adding another thing and reaching to another things bring in. Well, we'd rather see as a Chamber of Commerce is more individuals paying the tax by virtue of growing our economy, growing our population growing our house and stuff. And then them are actually putting more in taxes by virtue of improved economic conditions. So, the final thing I'll leave on this side is whether we like it or not education funding decisions are housing policy decisions because we are primarily funding our education fund, or a large part, but not not entirely but we're in a large part of by using our property tax. So the outcomes of some of the things we've done with property tax has stagnated our housing market and therefore adds problem I'll get that a little bit. But this didn't happen overnight. Well, they've been multiple times to drive up costs raise revenue and other things. You know, where we caught it on a Broadway train and these are perhaps actually provided to you by your own fiscal office and that levers report as well. And, you know, we go primary, our primary response has been adding sales tax and rooms and sales tax directing those entirely ending the general fund transfer. We got saved to large extent by South Dakota versus Wayfair, which brought in online sales. You know, frankly, we would have had a reckoning but for the pandemic and all the federal justice came through we would have had another reckoning following that disappearing. But for the fact that that largesse and frontal stimulus had made its way through the economy and was showing up at our trust taxes in a robust way. But now the chickens are really come home perused and we're in a difficult place where we need to stop the railway train. This is kind of getting a little bit I'll skip over this just to the sake of time getting a little bit more valuable we talked about with tax based tax rich, but we don't have sustainable groundless growth in the state. There's a large part of what I want to talk to you about today. If there's anything you can walk out of this with is I want to just drive home for you folks that partner education funding problem is our housing problem. I'm sure that in this committee, you hear from the experts in education about their constituency struggles with housing too. You know, I was talking to NBA just the other day about how their teachers are having trouble finding housing students are under house and that's or or not house and that's having impacts on the schools. Housing is the lowest common denominator in the state all problems frankly the back to housing. Even when I try to talk to my developers about what they need to build more housing they tell me they need housing for their staff and say you're the housing people. Why do you need housing and that's just indicative of where we are today. And I think actually our education funding system and our property tech system in some way has led to that. Here is a sharp graph of this whole grand list growth rates between 2011 and 2021, excluding the supported appreciation utilities. And that should be an answer not a horror, but that's important because we're not looking at the inflation and we're not looking at, you know, expenditures by utilities which can distort that. What you can see here is the majority of our municipalities are under two or 3% in grand list growth, and that's, you know, with an average of one one and a quarter. What you can see here from the top 20 grand list growers which I think it's going to be interesting when we look at the context of town meeting day conversation next, but also look at this in the context of housing you can see housing growth as, you know, dropped historically over the last 40 years, and we're not growing at a fast enough rate for just replacement of housing stock that is continually depreciating in the second most housing stock at the country and that actually gets to this graph here on the right. If I could, yeah, going back to the previous slide. Are you are, are you in any position to offer the reasoning of why you think this housing stock has dropped, such as people out here. There's a number of stuff working towards it so I love that you're having me. There's a number of reasons. Yeah, yeah, I think part of it is, I can start here is, you know, you know, I think we had issues around, you know, regulation. I think we've all had conversations in this building about active 50 around, you know, some of our exclusionary zoning in the state. But then a post curriculum world development looks different. And that's where I kind of send education funding to, and I'll get to that in a second. I want to touch on, I said, you know, replacing destroyed homes, you can see here, 2500 homes or almost 2600 homes go offline in a given year, or I think you should understand normal course of a decade because of how old our housing stock is. My point here to some extent is, if we had, you know, just 11,000 homes that are housing needs assessment has set the acutely, and they went for the median price statewide of 400,000 with an anticipated tax bill of at least, you know, 52, $5300 per year, we'd be looking up 58 million that we could have right now in education, but that would help you close some of that gap. Not to mention the economic multiplier fact that would have of stably housed people who can participate in our economy, both as employees, but also as consumers who go out and buy things that contribute to sales abuse, meals, their personal income comes in and our businesses could have a more robust workforce and grow and we can see that corporate income tax, all things that fund what your priorities are. And so, you know, I think our members are, you know, willing to pay for the price of education, they understand the importance of education. They can see that, you know, an individual they might be investing in today at the start of their educational journey is the employee and, you know, 10, 15 years. You know, but they also, they can't just be the full source of it and you got to let them lose and let them do the things that they're best at, so they can contribute. So, this is kind of bouncing all over a little bit here as I'm trying to speak up but going back to that grand list growth conversation. You can see here, you know, some of those towns have great grand list growth or also in some of the places we have very large schools. And out of our town meeting day, we saw that our large schools, 52% of them were rejecting budgets are next year are 38% for rejecting their budgets are medium and small schools were less likely to and the graph to the right of that shows how education spending per bus vehicles fairly is below the state average and mean they rank, you know, in some of our cheaper schools. Yet they were voting down their budgets and these folks are these districts in our, you know, our analysis are are the ones who are actually producing randomness growth that's being sent into the state coffers to then get redistributed back out. They're also lower in cost and they've done everything that's been asked of them over the last few decades as far as merging finding efficiencies. And those are primarily the folks that I represent so what I think is helpful is to kind of walk through a little bit just understanding how I help them understand education property tax and show how it's hard to explain to the two voters, how this works and also talk about some of our changes we have some perspective on. So understanding property taxes, nearly impossible and I think it's easy, an easy way to do this. Sorry, I want to thank just to hear you say, but you do your members have a sense when I look back on the slide of three people spending. You guys ever have the conversation of like, what should the per people spending be like what do you have a number in line that would be you feel or your membership feels would be adequate to educate your kid in Vermont. Well, I'd say that I definitely hear from my membership who can do, you know, who can research on their own that they're seeing that we have the second highest per people spending in the country and this will this year will probably put us into the highest per person spending. They know they also can do a quick Google search and see that our educational outcomes are middle of the pack and dropping. So I think for them, you know, it's, it's about, they're willing to pay, but they're going to pay the highest country and I think that's frustration now. I always find the number of these numbers interesting is about 10 years ago and I looked at a 13th year for my daughter, dearfield Academy was $54,000 with up and I was with the scholarship. Granted that included room and board, but I just think it'd be interesting to tease out a number that people think would be adequate to educate kids because I'm always like in my mind thinking what would that look like. We know why school kids are more expensive to educate than elementary school kids, but when you think about, you know, sports and music, the drama like everything they get in an education, I'd love to, if you ever come up with a number. I think it's a great idea. Yeah, even if this at some point the legislature could get in our minds like, okay, it's going to cost about this or about that, given everything that we want students to be able to take advantage of. But our members are more interested in strength and how can we find efficiencies in the spending we already have and I think that goes to the conversations that are having being had around the building around newer and fewer and around shared resources, we had three pieces of a particularly large piece of legislation around merging over the last decade. And I'm going to get into that for a second here. So, I'm going to break down the district homes and property tax formula into its constituencies to talk through a little bit better so one education spending and two equalized vehicles and three state-run property. So education spending, you know, this is just our obviously our issues around deciding the local level with expectation of a statewide property tax kind of distorting those choices. And this gets to our growth conversation around free break up because if you were trying to talk about your local spending, what were you doing, you were likely, it was likely sparring some effort to grow the grant list to fund that spending. That would be bringing in a new large employer who would be tax based or expanding housing stock or revitalizing your community or some combination of those things. But the intent, the understanding would be with a local school district free break up that you were on the hook for whatever you wanted to do, whatever your local education priority was. We're not saying go back to, you know, pre-97 world or pre-2003 world and, you know, recreate an equity of that. We understand that some towns were gold towns, some towns were having a hard time educating their populace. But there needs to be a closer tie to decisions of voters and their, you know, the spending. And there also needs to be a better understanding for voters, municipalities, school districts, everyone involved of what actually is funding this. This money just doesn't magically appear. It's created through economic development and housing development and other activities such as that. You know, right now, ironically, a lot of grant list growth is not rewarded in our current system. And so you look back at, you know, some of the folks who are on the top 20 grant list growth, they're seeing that growth gets sent to mob healer and then they're having to make hard austerity choices in their district level. You know, but for Brigham, they would have to make these hard choices. They could have the district that they wanted and they could do all the things that they wanted. So I think that's, and that manifests itself into some of our, are frankly excluded in Arizona. If you're already have a high propensity to say no to things in your backyard, which let's face it, volunteers do have that. What incentives are there now to say yes when you know that you don't want to see that and the grant list group from that isn't going to go to your community. It's going to get sent to mob healer and then go to someone else's community. So when grant list growth is everyone's job, it kind of ends up being no one's job. And it's kind of akin to if you ever take a CPR class they tell you when you start doing CPR, look at a person point them and say, you call 911. Because if you say someone calling 911, then everyone seems someone's calling 911, no one takes a person as their job. And that's kind of what we're in a position of a grant list growth. So, second constituency of that equation is equalized peoples and that is the point I was trying to make earlier about how Act 117 is kind of at odds with what we did in, you know, both Act 153, Act 146, and Act 46, which was trying to push rural and small schools to merge. When we added a sparsity and a small school weight and you let folks buy down property tax rates with that, you're working against every piece of legislation, you know, marquee piece of legislation you've had in the last decade and beyond. You know, from our perspective it might be more appropriate to push that to the categorical aid category, or for those weights or do something of that nature, not just let folks buy down. I know that the idea then what we had this to be around ELL and economic background weights, I would say that those are still appropriate to not be pushing the categorical aid. Because I think ELL is a much larger conversation about how to support and stand up students who are new Americans. And that does take, you know, the ability to be much more, much more dexterity. And then I think economic background is a greater indication of how that community's ability to pay. Frankly, if we could burn down the system today and redo it, and we were going to have the weights, I'd say like maybe economic background might be a better way to get at some of our statewide equity than actually like a purely statewide program. But that's for another day. And then you know this all fits together in the last part of the equation, the denominator, that's the yield. And I think that we had a really, because we had a lot of time in house education made a really robust conversation around is statewide property yield. Something that districts use to make their education spending decisions, or is the yield actually something that's comes after and I would say, you know, it's a chicken and I would say that statewide property yield is frankly it's a legislative conversation that's done in reaction to what you say. We're, and I think, just time on loan supports my argument because you don't set the, we're not going to set the yield this year until probably at least April 16, because the last votes are going to happen April 15. So, we've already voted on our budgets, we've already voted on our budgets and yield set far after budgets get voted on so one thing that could be a discussion to try to keep the statewide system while also making voters feel the impact of the decisions a little bit more acutely is discussing playing with that yield number and making it a smaller number, which effectively makes dollars more expensive for humanities, you shrink the denominator equation, while keeping the numerator the same from the space growing the numerator, you make the overall outcome more expensive and really and so a simple deal is the cost of buying statewide dollar for humanity. You could also bring back excessive spending adjustments that was suspended through 2029. That was something JFO suggested to you folks. That's another way to go about it. There's a fourth item here that I kind of want to talk a little bit about that also further distorts our property tax system. And that's the whole set of that correlation and the property tax. Because the income sunset property taxes, you know, if one of your constituents a lot of members can manage to get through that very complicated educations, spending formula, they still wouldn't need to understand the difference between property tax yield and income tax yield, the delta of which turns out to be a property tax credit. And this distorts what happens even further because a voter might know, oh, my property tax goes up but they might be income sensitized so they might feel like they're protected or they might learn they're not protected after voting. And that's two thirds of our monitors pay based on their income already. And I also think it's not truly reflective of one's ability to pay. I've got this little example here. So this is actually a three bedroom home that I pulled on the Zillow. And there's three individuals in this scenario, all three are working at working age, and they're have the same median salary and that's salary actually in the south and high school teacher. However, there's, you know, this first, so in the one household, we have two teachers, they're both being 65,000 for confined household income, 130,000. They actually have two dependents. And the other one we have one teacher making the same tax salary but they're living all by themselves in the same and that three bedroom home. A couple with the dependents is exceeding the property tax credit and cut tax, which is now 128,000. It's worth noting that that's been marched down over the last decade to make this program actually work and not be too big of a revenue expenditure. I think it was probably, if I can find it at the top of my head, it was 150,000 per household just six years ago and since it's been brought down. But they're past this cap. Well, this individual is getting a property tax credit of, you know, 3,675 dollars. I would encourage you to, you can actually go to the Vermont Department of Taxes website and download their property tax credit same box and play with this on your own. It's fascinating when you start to get into it and we have some economic problems we've done with that on the back end which is what I can play around with the folks sometimes they have more time to do, but, you know, we have this ethos of one's ability to pay and we have it's kind of based on marginal utility, but I asked, you know, who gets more marginal utility and three bedrooms a similar visual or a family of four. I think that that's an interesting kind of dichotomy here. Why are we such that someone who's overhoused? It goes actually another way when we start looking at this. If I may, to give some people overhouse, they might be in a room, they might be getting some income. It actually speaks really well to my point still because I know that. But if you were to say, if you were overhousing, you said, I want to bring a roommate into this situation. Your roommate's income counts towards your property tax benefits. It's all of the income domicile in the house. Regardless of relationships, we actually about two years ago changed this to exclude qualified refugees because qualified refugees are coming and people were being kind enough to bring them into their homes. But then they were getting her because those refugees were able to work and how much their brains pushing them out of property tax credit. So, you know, we've already kind of acknowledged the ludicrous nature of this to some extent in our tax code, but we need to go a little bit step further. It also, you know, it's more interesting when you look at it in terms of someone who is possibly retired and you look at the net assets. So, same example, but let's say this person's drawing 65 K from investments, not from a job and they're an empty nest here and they're sitting up 4 million and that assets with no mortgage. You know, all this couple that we talked about in the first example as 50 K and student desks and only three years in a mortgage then started paying off principal they're only in the interest zone. You know, because they used a three and a half percent VHFA loan, let's say, which thank you all for doing the support in that. But, you know, in this situation, we're kind of subsidizing someone from being overhoused and it's not indicative of their ability to pay. It's indicative of what they said their income at when they talk to their retirement professional. They have the ability to pay. And that also drives housing decisions, because, you know, what, what in this example, what incentive is there for this person, I'll say that they're, they're down to paying probably about $1,200 a year to live in that home. They're going to stand that home longer. They're actually kind of trapped up with tax cut on this because they don't have that economic nudge. So they're going to live in this home. They're likely going to defer maintenance, which means that when that house goes back on the housing market, it's not going to just be a, you know, $400,000 house before the $1,000 house, $100,000 of deferred maintenance attached to it, which is why we have the VHFA program. Again, thank you for your support of that. But, you know, we're distorting the housing market with this to a large extent is my point. You know, whether you like it or not, our education property tax conversations are housing conversations, because we've stagnated in the housing market, and it only is going to get worse as our demographics age. And you can see by this in the right hand corner, this is from our housing needs assessment for already very overhoused populations. So if you want some more tax revenue, you got to get this housing market churning. And that means maybe some changes to the property tax. No, it's okay. Thanks, Austin. I just wanted to highlight or underscore this scenario that you have here, the one person in the home with, I know so many couples in that exact situation who want to pay, like they, they want to pay more and they they are embarrassed about their tax credit, like they don't want it. Well, they don't want to deny it. That is an option. Okay. All right. That's good to know. You can always not. Actually, so we're not just a lot of times don't file for almost a declaration because it is so unique to say he's a lot of tax offer. They frankly get it wrong. I've even experienced that myself. So most of that relations very difficult. So some people cannot actually worry this year that that revenue expenditure that like two thirds or monitors might grow. Because I think you're going to induce some demand when people see these high property tax bills. People who might have skipped the home said declaration step or, or like the property tax credit step, or, or just, you know, missed it entirely. They're going to be searching for that property tax credit. So that could even throw this year and anything you need to shrink it. That's, so that's good to know. I do think there are folks who understand the scenario and understand the inequity in it. They heard it over and over and over again. And like I said, I think it's only going to get worse as our demographics shift older. And so, you know, I don't, I'm not saying we should be cruel and try to like push property taxes up and push older remanters out of homes. I think there's some ways we could do this. I think we've actually, by being kind, been a little cruel, we've trapped some remanters by like subsizing their property tax rates, which would otherwise and any other situation, any other state bent an economic nudge to right size their house and stuff. I know a lot of folks will say to me, well, you know, Austin did a lot of folks would want to leave their housing stock, but there's nothing for them to go to. It's a bit of a chicken and chicken situation. You know, if we aren't incentivizing that then the markets not seeing the demand for that and if the markets not seeing the demand for that is not treating that and it's a feedback loop. So we need to break that cycle. One thing we're interested in pursuing and it's too late and such like this, but as a seller's credit, much like the Biden administration proposed in the state of the union last month that would actually provide an ability for an individual to realize some of their PTC in their next domicile and they could, you know, sell and maybe they move to something, they take that activity from what they sold and maybe not as efficient of a planning solution, but they can see that PTC stepped out on a five-year basis on the taxes of their new domicile, which would hopefully be smaller. So, yeah, so suggestions and we kind of got into this considered homestead decorations and rent or rebate. You know, should they include attestations of household head well, you know, I think you frankly do that this year as the box on homestead declaration, not this year for the coming fiscal year. And it could frankly be a toothless tiger this year. But most people with high net wealth are getting their taxes done by professionals as professionals will check that box. You know, saying, okay, we do have that wealth about this so we're not going to use this or not follow the PTC process. You know, I think later on down the road you can figure out how to enforce it better, but for now could obviously just start that way because of the professionals who do that. I think it also, you know, we have statuses like dependence and verified and jointly our tax book for a reason. The PTC should, you know, continue to exist if it can continue to exist should reflect the makeup of the household and the person that and not penalize people who are living more densely or putting a bunch of earners under one roof. I mean, as it stands right now, I've talked to folks who have told me about how they had a child come back to live with them, you know, who's in their twenties is trying to get pulled back in Vermont. The child's income is pushed them out of property in a tax credit range because the child's making enough money that it's in its household income. It's not individual per household. It's household. Yeah, and, you know, we think we need to get our housing market churning a little bit more and bring down this overhouse status that we have one of those overhouse states in the country. Ironically, you know, one thing to not do is one thing to do is project and increase the property transfer tax. If you're trying to get people to exit housing, do not put a tax on exiting housing, you know, that is, even if it, one might say, oh, that's that's paid by the buyer, not the seller. We've all sat down, most of us have probably sat down and negotiated a, you know, a closing of a home at one point, like get all of some people on chunk of money and it affects itself. And then I think it's also worth talking about how we might need a CLA equivalent for homestead taxes that, you know, as areas of growth with higher property that is hit caps more easily than others. This is a conversation that's kind of tearing apart those upstairs right now, because they just increased profit transfer tabs in each 829. And he wanted to start the highest special at 600,000 and a lot of letters that are from Schiffner County said, well, wait a minute, that's a lot of homes in Schiffner County. And those homes aren't extravagant homes. This is, you live in Main Street, Burlington. That's what it costs, you know. So, you know, the statewide caps on both the home side value and the cap on the income. Those are disproportionately affecting, you know, different parts of the state takes $120,000 in Schiffner County looks a lot different than $128,000 in other parts of the state. Because of the high cost of living that it requires to live in Schiffner County. And we reflect that to get back to my point earlier about the Bureau of Labor Statistics, my area, there are discrepancies and wages in those places, but there's also discrepancies in the cost of housing, the cost of the central goods. That's why our base in each budget state has an urban and rural component to it. And that's a longstanding. So, I want to actually kind of doubt is, I'm going to go to the quick overview. So, the things to really take away from this conversation that I had, and sorry, rush this as much as possible, some of it might have been lost, but you're not going to talk with anyone. But Vermont Education, Vermont's education system is growing on sustainably. It's been mitigating by adding new revenue streams, and a few miracle that's frankly local decisions funded through statewide mechanisms great disconnects between choices and tax rates. Uh, resembling a tragedy, the common scenario, the complexity of Vermont's education funding system, vendors, public understanding and engagement. Whether we like it or not, education property tax policy is housing policy education property policies significantly towards the housing and development market have stalled the housing stock growth and discouraged tax based improvements. But tax equity or mitigating the expensive property taxes have diluted our community's community decision making and contributing to stagnating grant list growth property tax credit system, impacting two thirds of our monitors for those sorts of decisions. These efforts have also created perverse incentives and that fairly should divert the center on the larger households, including those partners. Real grand list growth remains minimal, especially municipalities focus on. Uh, well, actually, this should be backwards bad bullet. But, you know, those folks who actually are finding the efficiencies for making union school districts who are building grant lists, they're the ones voted down their budgets and they're kind of being asked to bring more to the statewide system and they've really got all they can. We need to have collaboration across housing and economic development sectors to support our education system financially. And then I think you should also explore fiscal numbers that were all on TV by JFO and moving forward. Thank you so much, Austin. This is great. And I appreciate the bullet points and the real clear breakdown. I just, uh, I like to focus when I can anyway on data and facts rather than anecdotes and hyperbole, you know, those good things. So, for example, like just the first bullet. And by the way, I totally agree with you about efficiencies and right sizing and it's completely in agreement with you, but I do start a little bit, you know, Vermont's education system is growing unsustainably. And it has been mitigated by the addition of new revenue streams and a few miracles. I just sort of playing devil's advocate here, but what does unsustainably mean? Is it unsustainable by virtue of the fact that people are voting down school budgets? I mean, that that is that what makes it unsustainable because I do look at some of the communities around where I live that have voted down their school budgets and I'm thinking the majority of people in that, I mean, the average income in that town is like the highest in the state or second highest. So, I just, I just question. Well, I think anyone can figure it's unsustainable whether they think it's unsustainable to keep having these school budgets get voted down or you think that we can't handle, but you know, 20% chop the property taxes this year. I think one great example though, like, you know, I think kind of what you're talking about bringing to the lines is CVU. And that's a pretty, there's some pretty wealthy towns there. Granted, like, a lot of those towns that feed CVU are, those are where groundless growth has happened. So incomes are higher, sure, but they're pulling their weight and then some in the statewide system. I like to think about also when you see, so like I live in when you see, and I think it's really ironic when you look at when you see its downtown improvement district was grown from being worth 24 million to 104 million over the last two decades. So one of it, when this is a whole is one of the only growing municipalities in the state, despite the fact that it's, it's got a geographical borders that are the highway river. And it really can't grow much but it's been welcoming to new American populations. It's been welcoming to businesses. It's developed housing, you know, bar and above its its weight class and it's punching well on its weight class. And, you know, there's a lot of folks saying, oh, like all this money's getting sent to a new ski through 127 to waiting and they're making out like, and if we were undo this, like, really just layered on. I think of our education funding system is like an old farmhouse that we've all probably done renovations on one of those at some point for all the monitors, like, it's not intentional. You know, you find like layers of shift up and then drive on and you know, it's just, it's been kind of long together as we go and suspend rule Goldberg sheet. And if you were to not have that you were just have when you see budget alongside the news these grand list growth when he's covering what it doesn't need all this regular role of my pillar to potentially to get at the funding that it wants it's he's growing. And so I think that's just, it's a really long way of saying like I think at the end of the day, the folks like you're going to see CB you've seen CB you go down the budget. These are places that are actually doing their part and trying to like grow the being welcoming to other populations to development to new employers to to actually fund this. So I think that's a, that's where it comes down to is, you know, if you want a 40 person headcount with 13 staff. You know, find an employer to fund that like build some more housing around it so that you also can bring in more children into that system. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I just want so I know this is a policy decision and I'm going to have that bumper sticker made for this committee to meet it. But my colleague, Senator weeks is often asking what's the strategy what's the plan so I know you can't take policy to us, but what we have a pretty rural state so you're right we do have like these small schools in these rural areas. Two of us sat in the school construction task force so we were grappling with these issues but what is the answer. We like build a regional school do more fussing or like you have any thoughts, you know, I think that the outcome of that committee, your interviewer is important. I mean, start looking at county level. I love that's 159 that Senator Hardy pat the light push through around and I wish it could have been done two years ago because I think it'd be really. Oh, this is the municipal study is regional and county governance. Yeah, I think that that could be a great. If we had outcome of that study to be something that could serve as a, you know, a North Star for the newer and fewer conversation, because I think that the future of the state needs to be more regionally or countywide shared infrastructure for schools, not every school needs the new athletic facility, maybe we can sexually locate some, you know, I think we need to pull smaller schools into bigger schools. You know, if the worry is transportation, let's mitigate those worries but let's not let them get in the way. I personally grew up in. What would be considered a union school of 18 towns and my biggest pet peeve of it was that I didn't have a big enough school, even after all that like I would love to go to the big school. So I think we need to do that. I think we need to look at a county wide level or regional doesn't make sense to find the shared infrastructure. This is this will be it. Did you follow the bocees bill? What's your opinion on that? And did you live in the bocees world because you grew up in New York and I know New York has bocees. So can you speak to that? You may not have followed it. I followed the bocees to some extent. I grew up in upstate New York where there was bocees. I think it's getting out of what I'm saying of shared responsibility, shared resources, shared outcomes and shared funding. And the crux of it is a lot of our issues in Vermont are you know, unforeseen errors that are on the basis of like trying to think too tribally between all of our small municipalities. We need to start thinking more regionally about everything. When I was in education, the house education committee, we talked a little bit about just picking on Casey to district, you know, they built a pool shared between local communities and it was like groundbreaking to hear people talk about it. Like, oh, yeah, no, there's a swimming pool. Yeah, hard act. But they built a swimming pool there and you know, it responded between multiple communities and they have this like whole. I'm like, this shouldn't be groundbreaking anywhere else in the world, you know, six towns sharing a pool is very normal. But like, in Vermont, that took like a whiz kid, a city manager, and a lot of work to pull off. And, you know, that should be how it is. And I think we need to get to that to make our education system right sized. I'm not saying necessarily like, less lower the per people spending, but let's spend it more efficiently and let's get back to these municipalities and school districts can also partner with each other. There are a lot of places in the country where there's a pool in a high school that serves the retired community as well as the students. Yeah, I mean, that's a fast thing. Yeah, exactly. But I think we can all agree we try to do something between municipalities and I sit on the board of Greenmont Transit, my volunteer role, and that is, that just is exemplary how difficult it is to get, you know, more than 10 years of knowledge is to rely on anything and find something and try to understand that they're, you know, they need to come together for the collective good. And if you try to increase that happy ability that they're kind of found it. So, you know, we need more or county or regional level, you know, leadership. I think that there are some things like I said that we've done immediately around property tax credit just make that a little bit more equitable. And reflective of, you know, the fact that that revenue expenditure will grow as our Asian population grows and they start to be up fixed incomes, which aren't always just fixed incomes. They're just what is coming out as a trickle from multiple assets. So, I think that's conversation. We need more housing. And right now, you know, your colleagues in seven natural are discussing housing bill. You know, if we had, I've been working on some iteration of this act to 15 modernization conversation for six years now. You know, some of the work that is tier one a and tier one B that is in that is frankly, then exactly what you've been asking for it's like champion chamber for six years, we haven't had anyone tell us that they don't believe it's right. What we've had is this wait for a grand bargain situation so that we can have, you know, treat that for role rule for fragmentation. And, you know, nobody is settled on the way like oh no we should actually or like we shouldn't remove downtown Burlington for active 50 jurisdiction. And if we have done it six years ago, maybe we'll be closer to that target of 11,000 housing units. And maybe we could have some of that 58 million I've discussed, you know, maybe we wouldn't have such a big deficit. So, you know, housing is education financing too. And it also means that when you go to your collective bargaining agreements, the teachers, they're not worried so much about their housing costs and they can actually live closer to the school and all this other things. So, you know, it's, it's a very hairy, like what did problem we have here. We didn't get into it overnight, we're not going to get out overnight, but we can start understanding that our stagnation and grand list and housing has lent itself to this problem and that could be a large part of getting out. Thank you, Austin. I appreciate you coming in. I mean, let's take five minutes. Welcome back everyone to Senate Education Tuesday, March 26, 321. We have an amendment being proposed by Senator Renner to S-220. Senator Renner, floor is yours, please. Thank you Senator Campion and committee members. I'm going to learn my lesson really quickly about this, but I did propose it. I have a floor to change a word in the library bill S-220. And you have it before you. It's in section 622 BSA section 143, which is the trustee section. We have corrected the word chalk insist of not fewer than five members. So we're changing one word less if you were with your blessing. Thanks. So we can't do it. I enjoy the attention to grammar. Yes. I'd like to hear from the bees. I have a draft 1.1 of amendment to S-220 before us committee. Do I have a motion? I'll make a motion to an S-220 with Senator Renner's amendment. Seconded. Committee, any discussion? My only question. You're an English teacher, right? No. When does use become the rule? You don't have to answer it. I'm just throwing it out there to the universe. As it relates to grammar and language. Yeah. But that's just a hypothetical. I'm in favor of this amendment. Thank you. Thank you. Great. So we've got the date and let's see. Let's start with Senator Weeks. Oh, yes. Senator machine. Yes. I think Senator Williams did he vote before he left? No. I think he did. Yes. And share champions. Yes. So we'll vote out 4-0-1. What's the, you represent Milton, right? I do. You call the papers. It was the Milton newspaper up there. I would like to report the event. I believe Senator Renner will get up on the floor. And I believe Senator, you need to bring a copy to the. Yeah. So they are either waiting for you or maybe waiting for 30 days. Sure. But if you don't mind bringing it up now and let them know that the vote is 4-0-1 and you have a clean copy. I don't think we give them that. I don't think we're going to, we don't send up this, right? We just send up the, we don't send up the R01. So all you need to do is go up and say 4-0-1. And there they are looking for you. Yes. Oh my goodness, you saved me a trip. Can you tell me when do I stand up or do I not stand up? We can go up as much as.