 If you want to ask a question, go to the bottom of your Zoom screen and you should see a button Q&A. Go ahead and click on that and your Q&A window will open up and that is where we will read your questions and then we will try to answer these questions verbally or we will answer the question via text. One way or another we will get to your questions. Thank you and we will plan for about 30 minutes of conversation and if you have additional questions, please send them to our registrar. You have the email very handy on your registration email and we will take it from there. So welcome everybody. Thank you for staying with us. It's a little bit later than we thought but that's how it goes when human beings gather. You know we are not machines. We have organic open conversations but let's keep to 30 minutes and I would like to invite Professor Minkins to open the session with a few comments about making the play, creating the framework. To me the poignant question was how long does it take for a curse to die? Very poignant, very powerful. So Andre? Well thank you guys for staying up and watching this. This is just the first incarnation of it. There's so many plays, so many stories that I had to just whittle everything the information down to. Been living with this play for more than a year as far as the information and the research and the journals I plowed through and the fact that I wanted to use as a devised theater piece, I wanted to make sure that I use the words of real people that were involved and without naming a lot of names in some other instances. I really wanted to capture their daily lives and fortunately the Moravians left a lot of notes. Everybody had to keep a journal or diary and it was read upon their passing some poignant parts of their lives and it's just fascinating to hear them speaking in those terms. I mined from 1735 to 1840 something. It's like wow I just lived in 100 years of a group of person's lives and some of the lives that they only spoke of when it comes to Abraham and Peter Oliver and all those persons, I didn't even get to really sit with some of the African-American voices in their own voice but knowing the things about them and the fact that when I still had hair at 20 something I actually played Peter Oliver character for Old Salem not knowing that this would come full circle. I don't know where the pictures are in the archive Eric but if I'll look through and see if I can find myself again, I've seen myself before and he kind of caught me off guard. You know Andre I can tell you you are a serious student of words because that if I could just, I was hearing footnotes throughout your you did a such a fabulous job of knitting those actual words in the records and the words were crafted in different vignettes for different audiences and yet what you did was pulled them out and drew the humanity story between all of those. You gave agency to people who may have only been given a passing footnote but in a sum you created a different glimpse of our humanity through that and I appreciate that so much that was a very very moving assemblage of words we thank you. Thank you Eric. I saw that Matthew is back with us good evening again Matthew. I know there was there were some we got a version that was not quite complete there were a few songs missing it looked like right and there were possibly scenes missing and I know that Matthew had prepared also a story for that so Matthew would you like to also before we get into the first question that we got say a few words what the production meant to you there was quite a bit of information shared about and Cherokee and other native peoples and before you get started I hate to interrupt but the story that Matthew told about the he told me about the was it the turtle in the in the eagle or the bird the the turtle in the quail the partage right and that story is going to end up in the video probably by Friday the editor just got overwhelmed and there were some things that he wanted to add and he didn't quite understand what tonight was he just heard conference but he didn't know that this was a world premiere of a piece that that's going to be a larger piece and and so that story will be in in the film version of this in the next couple of days okay Matthew so shall we we would love to hear from you I thought the dialogue between Eric just mr. Williams and mr. your father and and the the fellow who was walking through all of and a fantastic actor because he was given such passion to the different disciplines of the intellectualization of racism yeah that has that have haunted so many of our thinking and they and they show up in all these corners of human endeavor that had this racial twinge to them that we don't think about until we start adding them all together and you see the pattern it's holding us there thank you Eric can we kind of look back to Matthew please let's go ahead Matt thank you anybody else got anything otherwise forever hold you piece I enjoyed the film it was or the play it was very interesting to actually get to uh to hear some accounts of missionary native relations usually we get a very broad generalization of missionaries come in Native Americans conversion you know there was some things in it about the the resistance to the religion um and some of the the things that I've read and I've learned is the conversion was quite easy for us as Cherokee to go into these other types of religions because our belief is in one spirit one being one creator so when we get the the Moravian's religion or Methodist or whatever denomination it is it's all going to one deity the thought of one deity and we believe in one deity it was easy for us to go into that the the the the resistance I see is also you got folks that are willing to to go into the conversion to go into into another another set of beliefs but you also have another group that are very pure in what they believe and they hold on to what they have been taught and it's almost like the saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink I believe that was that resistance is a choice we see that resistance with dragon canoe as he led the Chikamagua sect of the Cherokees he was a very big in tradition he didn't want anything to do with Europeanized or colonized life but on the other hand we got chiefs like um ostinoco and uh Ida Colicola they were more than willing to live more peaceably and if that meant bringing in these types of beliefs they were willing to do that you know it was it's a really big conflict both spiritually and also you have the conflict of what's better for my people what's better for the end result and I believe well I mean I'm here we've still got Cherokee here so I believe those those decisions throughout that time period speaks volumes because although we have majority of us have a Baptist background um now on on boundary uh we do have folks that still practice traditional ways so it's still you know it's still there the our culture and that was I believe one of dragon can these worries as well as many others is how do we keep our culture alive how do we keep our culture intact um and you know keep it keep it pure and keep it here um so there there's a lot of a lot of working cogs and you know about like a clock that were that were working on that but to listen to this it was it was really interesting I liked it I really enjoyed it and we look forward to to seeing the second version with a story you you you chose to share which will show more light on that and in the play André you clearly talked about the need for uncomfortable dialogues and you modeled for us how you can have that dialogue both within a particular group as in the scenes between the the teacher and the board member and the student and Matthew you showed that the same kind of dialogues that happen between the missionaries and the settlers and the indigenous peoples and the african-american peoples also happened independently within the Cherokee community and this kind of spectrum of choices is still very much here today and it's still very much a part of the african-american community as well and these divisions also show up within the white communities coming to terms with the the um the history of colonialism versus some yearning or some sense of what you Matthew called the purity the purity of the message that people get by understanding there's only one creator for all that is created and and how do we how do we sort between the purity and the pollution really so we will continue this conversation we will go very deeply into that tomorrow night there are also two sessions tomorrow afternoon that will continue the conversation in our virtual walk and learn but because of our limited time I would like to shift to questions and there are two very very interesting questions and I will summarize them for both of you and you might want to talk about that both of you as well so one question is did you find that the Moravian um um practice of enslavement was different from from that of slavery practices across the United States and we can extend that and that's really much debated in the scholarship um Matthew you know where Cherokee slaveholders different from white slaveholders it's very clear that indigenous peoples learned chapel slavery from the white settlers as part of the civilization program and as you pointed out and uh related to that perhaps a quick fact question how many slaves and slave bodies did the Moravians in total um have and um also then maybe Matthew you want to speak about Cherokee slaveholdership um in that and one other question about Islam I brought that up earlier today we know that enslave people some of them were fully literate there were many many were multilingual many different African languages possibly for some Arabic German for sure um and um indigenous languages they picked up Cherokee pretty quickly when they when they were on Cherokee plantations so Islam is that a player in this in this unfolding history so how many slaves were the Moravians different slaveholders were the Cherokee different kind of slaveholders what about Islam it's a lot but it's all fascinating well I do want to say that because in this presentation I wanted to be careful about authenticity but I'm going to find a way to get to Cherokee or bring Matthew to end to have lunch and I want to add those conversations that that the uh that the Cherokee might have been having amongst themselves Matthew's got to help me find some Cherokee actors so I can make this work so because I do want to have that I want them to have that discussion and Matthew would have been a part of the live show and in a more poignant way as well and our music would have been all throughout so especially on this part so we talked about the division and the in the unity that the Cherokees did share with some of those Moravian friends some of the Moravians moved actually moved to the territory with the Native Americans maybe not in the same fashion but once they got to Oklahoma or one of those other states some of the Moravians did go there and you know and move there for a while some came back to Salem but some stayed so so I did want to explore that a little bit and to deal with the the fact that the Cherokee had relationships with with enslaved Africans that and even free Negroes they had relationships and they're obviously also some some blood lines that African Americans have they go back to Cherokee origin as well as far as my as far as the Islam question you just want me to do more research is what it sounds like because now I have to find that link and I know it's there so if you whoever asked that question if you know of those links that um that you know have occurred and things that you can you know let's share with me in areas I can go to to look you know to look at that to see how how impactful it might have been in North Carolina because that's what this story pretty much you know its roots are in the fact that coming from other places they came to North Carolina and had to live together and form formulate these relationships and deal with I mean because I didn't realize that the road that goes past that tavern or went past that tavern it was a main artery at that time and people running from this from from the Revolutionary War where you know Cornwallis was coming up through the coast were running up that road to escape from you know when South Carolina was getting bombarded at one time um so and then they would leave and come leave Virginia or wherever they had gone and come back through there to go back to their farms or wherever they were going back to with their with their family and their slaves so so I mean so everything was brought to Salem's door and there was so much more that they could have you know been a part of but like we said in the in the piece they almost got their land taken away twice because of not appearing to be American enough in those ways yeah thank you very much Matthew you want to build on Andre's comments and and and tell us what what your thoughts are about these questions uh well about the uh the slave holder um question um we've practiced slavery even before European contact um because a lot of things you need to keep in uh take into consideration is our we don't get along with our neighbors sometimes and such as we are we might have a back and forth so whenever we would go to war we would capture young men or women and bring them back as um um laborers but um majority of the time when these folks these uh folks that were enslaved would uh come into turkey towns uh the beloved women would choose where these people went let's say there was a uh recent uh young wife who had lost her husband in a fight in a battle and that enslaved person could be given to her and from there a relationship would incur not not necessarily right off but it would build up to that and they would then become a replacement in a way to fill in that gap to where her husband was taken out so untimely um maybe a mother lost her son and or a daughter and that person that they bring into the towns would thus become that person again uh it's almost I don't want to say incarnation exactly but it kind of plays in that because they're it's like they're coming back but in a different form they're taking place of that individual that had died and in most cases uh these folks were treated so well that they didn't want to leave if we release them now that was at the before european contact we get into contact and then we go in to see how europeans treat slaves we see that and it's almost an example it's almost showing you okay well that's how we need to do it now and by the 1800s um majority of the slaveholders were not even full uh blood of turkey they were mixed with white white blood and turkey blood uh like james van he went in a full blood turkey uh but he was a slaveholder and he was a vicious slaveholder um he was a drunkard um he he wasn't really a good man at all um but again you kind of see the the colonized coming in to the into the into the way that the slaves are treated it is a you know it is a uh very intoxicating um thing to you know to want wealth and at that time having wealth you have to have workers that would really you know run your farm of you know get get your product out and so you know it was you know it was what it was at that time and uh and you and you're right some people did take it to the you know to such extremes and very cool and in other times it was just a matter of trying to survive until this country saw the light to say okay enough of this we don't need to be doing this anymore and the caribbean i found the caribbean was you know they got their freedom in 18 in the 30s like 30 years prior to and we will go in depth with the caribbean case study with uh dr winnell curtain robots presentation on friday so you can see how i like the image andre of selen being a crossroads and it extends really into every continent it extends well into many continents it extends to africa it extends in the caribbean it extends deep into indian country um and it extends back to europe and with the moravian missions to greenland um etc so it is a crossroads what i find really interesting also matthew about um the different models is um that uh you know what you said about you said it's not quite incarnation but it's a replacement of people who were lost in the in the community and then to move from that to learn the chattel slavery really took white people to get into the community and teach it so it's learned behavior it's learned behavior and um and so resistance as we know from some research um that has been done on the african-american enslaved it's also resistance something that was already in the culture because a lot of the you know you talk about some stories of you know of the enslaved who run away who resist who protect the women by taking an extra whipping um so resistance and fighting back is also the role of warriors that were trained in their original african communities and they pass it on so there is a cultural continuity in ways that that the white people didn't see really and so matthew when you talk about the continuity of spirituality and religion to the point that today there are many traditional practitioners um possibly even in the same family so you have in the same shariqi family you know shariqi christians and you have shariqi traditionalist and the same way in the african-american community you have um very african spirituality is being very alive and very much practiced and at the same time you have a christianity so it survived christian and slavers that survived the teaching of the curse of him and still have that purity of a christian spirituality that is really powerful and strong so that's um that's really a testimony to the human spirit and the ingenuity of keeping traditions alive and keeping a cultural tolerance ethics alive that it could accommodate the good the good of so many different teachings yeah well i found i found it fascinating how much the maravians influenced uh so much of the world you know in that in those ways you know calling each other brothers and sisters um women's uh women speaking in services um i mean but once they got here there were even some conflicts and some of those things you know so yeah so the the forming of america had some very powerful voices guiding america in different ways that you know was you know they weren't they weren't good ways for human beings and human spirits but they might have been good for industry you know so that's um what do you do if you are trying to you know create a country and the country has to have wealth uh well you you you form rules and set boundaries so that so that that that ship can sail and that in that way in that manner um but there's again there's so many stories to tell from this and then we you know with the the uh the fact that we're living in the in the uh in this uh age of being able to have these uncomfortable conversations and talking about you know black lives and um and i you know it took a year to kind of really kind of realize it would probably wouldn't have gone in certain directions in april when we did it live the way that it can go now the way in the conversations that we can have now uh so uh that's why when i was writing the teacher's part i was like well this is a good time to to to talk about why these conversations need to be happening or in denial that you know that everything's over on both sides and that they're you know that there's you know shouldn't be conversations nobody we should be revisiting this and it's like well you know you can't you know it it runs a lot deeper than you know than what we believe once i got into that that research it took me all the way there into that worm hole that the rabbit hole and information just started piling up you know um so i had to find a way to build it down so i'm i'm really excited about the possibilities and the different stories that can be told so it's um maybe one one aspect we could discuss in closing we are almost running out of time it was very moving for me to see so many young people voice these stories and i know and and matthew you can speak to that that indigenous communities you always act with a consciousness of taking care of the next generations how will your own actions affect the young people the the people who are not even yet born and so these uncomfortable conversations also lead to a different vision of what this country can be three generations from now seven generations from now and perhaps we can close tonight with both of you speaking to to the youth speaking to the children that are not yet born yeah you first okay all right well i i think that um i commend uh those 20 something and teenagers who decided that they were going to take to the streets and they were going to be heard uh and there's a lot of pain still in the community from today's news and um but not you know from from my age group not unexpected uh but i'm i'm thankful to them that they are are forcing the hand of of authority and of people who are supposed to be the smart people in the community in the in the society and say let's stop and think about this and and discuss this um and you know we don't need to belabor the point that we have uh leadership that just didn't get it um uh the denouncing the denouncing of the 1619 project was unnecessary and totally off the rails and uh because we have to have these conversations um and i too am connected to that 1619 project because one of my ancestors was one of the indenture servants off that boat so being from williamsburg virginia so i you know so i i do you know i do really want to make sure that we they want to change the history again these these children need to know the real history and i'm glad that the that the generation is out there now the youth are out there now that i i um i hope and um and pray that they will you know organize in fashion in a fashion that now will begin to get results and not just um what you you know what what you're feeling but also what you're thinking that should have it should be happening and what we can do and um and i think that the unborn children will have a you know will have a much pleasant experience on on the planet so thank you mathieu i think you have the last word tonight yes come on pastor well um i might be the only one on this panel that can say this i don't want to speak for anybody or out of turn whenever i say this but for me as for myself i walk in two different worlds i have to i got my side where i was born into i was blessed to be a churiki i was um born into into a wonderful culture a a people with a deep history despite how tragic or whatever happened in that history and i'm also a product of this day and time i'm also walking in a colonized manner i'm walking in a a manner that if i were to been born back in the 17 to 1600s i would think very alienated but i am very comfortable um in this in this walk and one thing that i would say to these unborn babies is to be careful and to mind what you say what you do and to be careful to follow society because society tells us to do one thing and majority of the time society is wrong society has us all jumbled up that's why there's such divide today that's why there's there's unrest that's why there's lawlessness in our society and we've got to be careful with with such things because one we we think that we know best it's in our conscience it's in our it's in our our blood to to think that we know how to do this thing right and we know how to further own but i would say to look more in your spiritual side i would say to look to god for guidance in our culture we believed in one god in my belief now i'm an independent fundamental baptist i'm still believing god but i also believe in jesus christ and either way god brought us here god blessed us with life god allowed us to be here in this meeting god allowed us to do a lot of things that we take for granted just getting up in the morning and breathing you know simple things that we think that we can do just because you know it's how our body works there is a verse in the book of james it talks about life being a vapor it's gone it's here one minute and then gone the next and it's true today we lost a man who has had a lot of knowledge and a lot of our commitment our old village places is just suddenly and then we lost a beer pastor not just monday life is quick life's fleeting and it's you need to be careful about who you follow where you follow and what you do and what you say because people are always watching people are looking at and they're going to say something the first time you step out of line the first time you make that mistake they're going to look at you and that's the thing that they're going to remember it's always happened that way if you choose to go with society and do what society tells you to do you're going to you're going to find yourself into a snare you might get trapped and you won't find a way out be careful mind where you step because there ain't no telling watch just around that bend and listen to other to the elder folks elder folks hold a lot of wisdom and learn from them so that's that's about the best i can i can say the best i can i would give to somebody in the next generation thank you thank you so much um for these remind us of what really matters in our work whether we are in the academy whether we are in the town whether we are in the countryside whether we have families or are having friends and to really sort through what our task is in this life and how to how to be good role models as you said Matthew you know we are all being observed and watched and i think the conference is an opportunity for us to think more deeply about these questions and i think tonight was a really powerful opening of this difficult conversation and i'm so glad Matthew we will see you tomorrow night again andre i hope you will stay with us and some form or another as well over the conference and definitely definitely as we build on this conference because this is only a beginning so thank you so much it's an honor to have all of you with us i'm i'm just very grateful i really am so all your support and very helpful you know getting through all of this this process and all of the emotions and and ups and downs of of of pulling this information together and trying to figure out what story to tell you know how to write something that can speak to all three cultures in some way both truthfully and also in a positive light so so thank you for your support it's only the beginning andre it's one step in a relationship that we we will develop so thank you so much to our participants we are coming now to a close and please join us again tomorrow afternoon there is a virtual tour of the american indian objects that we have at the museum of southern decorative arts and after that at three o'clock we have a another presentation about the the missionary objects that the moravians got from from those they wish to convert and really all over the world and also including american indian objects and we will reflect on that at three o'clock with the museum of anthropology right here at rake forest then we'll take a break we'll all have something to eat we will take a nap me for sure and then and i know andre and i always joke you know we are big fans of nap takings because we work so late at night and then we will be refreshed and see each other for a panel with matthew and also the honorable jack baker from the national trail of tears association and together we will have a conversation about the remembrance of of the sherry key for us removal and it will be another very powerful evening a very powerful day so rest well stay safe and thank you so much thank you everybody everybody so good night good night be safe be safe thank you richard so be safe everybody and grant is our technology guru and you will know how to close us off so good night everybody night good night see you tomorrow