 All right, so let's start with Who is Jeff Watts? You want me to introduce myself. I hate that kind of thing. That's fine Do it in your own way. You don't have to but Yeah, I mean most people most people know me for my books, I suppose I've written a few on agile and coaching and a joke book But most of my time I spend coaching usually people one to one Sometimes teams whether they be agile teams or leadership teams And in the past I've done some training and things but largely I'm a coach I was a coach before I was a scrum master And so those two those two worlds of professional coaching and agile have been my Professional life for the last 20 years and I often describe it as a bit of a Venn diagram with my Agile world as one circle in my professional coaching world is another and then there's this nice little sweet spot Where they where they overlap and you can bring some of the coach professional coaching practices and disciplines into the agile world How did you get into the agile space? Largely through Being Rebellious I suppose but I I mean some people view it as rebellious. I viewed it as practical I mean, but I do I do admit that I have a rebellious side I like alternative. I like change but I was a project manager at a telecoms company And it didn't seem to make a lot of sense to me that we would run our projects Kind of knowing that they were doomed to fail And I just thought there was a better way of doing things and so instead of Instead of following the waterfall approach that I was trained in I decided to speak to my developers and I speak to my customers and actually thought actually Do you know what they probably speak to each other without me being in the middle? And Yeah, it was it started there And then then it was just a case of on right place at the right time or wrong The wrong time depending on how you look at it. We've got a new Cheat CIO who came in from the States Who've done some done some agile stuff at a company over there and said, you know, if this company is going to survive It needs to change And I was probably one of the only people in the company and in many ways the country who had done anything So he sort of picked right Jeff you need to go and start coaching all these teams To do something like what you've been doing there That's the rest is history That is great. You over the years you've collaborated With a lot of people including Mike Krohn in your recent or maybe not recent you've been collaborating with Probably Dave Snowden and Andra Tomassini for some time, but you guys Developed a framework call organic agility framework. Could you maybe talk about that because I'm completely new to it I've done, you know, a little bit of my kind of Looking around but it seems very interesting. Maybe could you talk about what it is? Yeah, yeah, and then we can dive a little bit deeper into it. Sure. Well, again, I suppose that's that came from a little bit of as a combination of frustration and Just sort of trusting our instincts if you like so as as agile coaches Andrea and I We never got involved in any of the scaling frameworks and we never really asked ourselves why until we just sort of sat down How to talk about it and so well, it just they just feel contradictory It's and the best the way that we could describe it was they feel like they're trying to do agile in a waterfall way And it and it didn't seem to sit well with us So we said well if we were if we were speaking when we're speaking to leaders of organizations who are saying well We can get agile working at a team level But we can't get it working at the organizational level and we want to and you're saying that these frameworks don't work But you're not giving us anything Instead So what would our answer? What are our answers? You know sort of ad hoc could we formalize them a little bit We were Andrea was already doing quite a bit of work with with Dave Snowden any way on the sense maker framework and the Kenevin framework and So what could we actually give these leaders a way of actually visualizing what their current culture is and See based on the changes that they make to their leadership style their decision-making process their structures The way they resource their teams whatever changes they make can they see real-time changes to that culture and the results And then make decisions based on the changes that they're seeing so an iterative incremental you know inspect an adapt approach to cultural change within their organization and So that's what we put a lot of time into doing is to creating that visualization because visualization is powerful transparency is the bedrock of inspection empiricism so we managed to do that and we Detached ourselves from the the idea of actually you need to become an agile organization That's thought was the first thing we did which is why when you see organic agility, it's written with a small a that's quite deliberate because actually we say to leaders You may not want to be an agile organization that might not be right for you just because you know We have experience of as agile coaches doesn't mean we're here to tell you to become agile We want you to make decisions based on your understanding of what's right for you in your context and enable your people Within your organization to make those decisions consistently even though they're facing different circumstances to other people and other teams in your organization So you may well have and it may well be right for you as a company to have different pockets of agility and Waterfall and different levels of agility and different types of agility because this organization is big and it has different challenges So that's kind of where that came from And it's all about contextualizing things, you know, we've been living the world where it's all like, you know One-size-fits-all do this do that recipe type of stuff and what you're saying and what Resonate with you guys is that context is king and not everything needs to be The big a or even little way like, you know, within my podcast called agile to agility and has several meanings And there was a reason why that, you know, agility is lower a but it is about agility and like you said, it's different levels Not everything necessarily needs to be You know, the I'm assuming talking to Dave and talking to Andra and probably from your understanding it's about understanding the complexity right and contextualizing things to that. Yeah Yeah, I mean that all of these organizations that we work with that Generally facing I mean they're facing a number of different challenges But one of the big tensions that they're facing is that they know on the one hand They need to increase autonomy because to be responsive People on the ground need to be able to make decisions rather than have them escalated up But equally if you enable autonomy for everyone then there's a good chance that you get chaos because everyone's going to do things differently So it's about trying to get that balance of autonomy and Standardization if you like so this this element of coherence across the organization so that you can have organizational resilience So that's where the the organic comes from its organizational resilience by growing autonomy and interdependent culture And it's you know, it's it's not something we've got a massive marketing machine behind It's not something we're hoping is going to take over the world, but it's something that helps us just You know form formalize something that we're talking about to organizations rather than just trust us Will help you work something out? Well, it's interesting because like I've like there's a separate pattern that noticed with Within some of these interviews of people that I you know including Dave Which is that we're moving away from these prescriptive frameworks and Where it comes down to you know when I was looking at the organic agility and again organic stands for organizational resilience by growing autonomy and nurturing an independent culture. I highlighted organizational resilience autonomy and culture in that sense and really agility is about that organizational resilience and That's a spectrum depends how on the content how resilient organization needs to be Autonomy you just touched upon but maybe could we focus a little bit on culture? and the cultural side like how How do you define culture and how do you influence and change culture? Um So it cultures one of those things that's been notoriously difficult to define for lots of people for a long period of time I I typically view it and this is you know a lot you can imagine a lot of the conversations that we had between myself Andrea and David were around. Well, what is culture and what we typically? Gravitated towards was it's the stories that people tell about how things get done So one of the first things will do You know when speaking to a team a leadership team or anyone within the organization is tell me a story of when something worked really well here Tell me a story of when something doesn't work. Well and tell me a story that's pretty typical of Your your work, you know your organization now when I used to work at this telecoms company It was pretty easy to tell Just by overhearing a conversation in the bar who else worked for that company because of the stories that they told And we were said to have what the phrase that I heard back then was we have a very thick culture Now unfortunately the English language is has many different definitions of the word thick And unfortunately one of them means to be unintelligent that that wasn't the intention of that definition It was generally say you can tell somebody from this organization pretty quickly. Yeah And so what we're trying to do until your second question is how do you go about changing it is about creating the opportunity for us to write different stories and If you think about culture outside of the organization is it's again stories that we tell about our culture stories They get handed down from one generation to another when we meet another organization We tell stories that teller tell them about us And so we built the organic Framework around the ability to tell stories to cluster stories and to be able to Create opportunities to write new ones and Like when you said that something that I don't know how much you're familiar with it, but from a You know relation to the stories relevant to our Values and beliefs, you know the stories that we tell ourselves and the reality that we you know perceive or make in our heads so really when you said that What resonated with me is it's really about changing our collective values and beliefs as as a company and We do that through stories perhaps. Is that what you're alluding to? Yeah, so we when we talk about Organic agility to to people to leaders and teams. We reference the pyramid of results and Basically that's saying at the top of the pyramid the the first thing that you see is results Okay, they're visible something's happened. These could be financial results or they could be the result the consequences of a decision and Results happen because of the actions that we take and logic would say Einstein would say you know the first side of madness is doing the same thing and expecting different results If you want different results, you should do different take different actions But unfortunately, that's not always the case in complex environments You can do the same thing and get different results. You could do different things and get the same results There's no guarantee about cause and effect there. So What determine we can't standardize our actions in a complex environment? So what what determines our actions? Well our beliefs and our values determine our Actions what we think is right what we think is the right thing to do what we think other people will judge us favorably for What we believe the consequences of these decisions to be so we might be able to standardize beliefs So that even though we may have different actions. They're based on the same belief system But how do we form our beliefs and we believe we form our beliefs through experiences? Okay, now that's often We do something and something happens and that says okay. Well, I won't do that again or I will do that again It could be something very pavlovian like that But so what we're saying to organizations is don't try and standardize actions try and standardize beliefs leaves through creating more and more experiences and Recognizing and appreciating experiences Does that make is that why it makes perfect sense to me? It's it's I'm trying to maybe You know Because a lot of times we focus agile the big a has been about those actions and focusing on those actions Not focusing aligning the beliefs But if you go back to agile manifesto, for instance, it's all about aligning those beliefs and values Within the organic agility framework you guys have five principles Maybe we can explore those because that's aligning the more of beliefs and perceptions and those principles and Maybe I don't know. I'm interested to hear your take on Differences between values beliefs and principles. What are the principles fit into? Well, if I can just go back slightly because you did mention something that I think it's really quite interesting So as well as stories being an enabler of change another valuable enabler of changes rituals And where things like scrum have come in is to apply Or to put in place rituals so things like a daily scrum for example that you mentioned that is a ritual and there that there it's intended to create an experience and embed an experience and One of the powers of rituals is that it provides a level of certainty in an area of uncertainty So provides sort of an anchor in a storm if you like and the more you do something the more You know it just becomes normal and then Most of the agile coaches that I come across now see it. It's not about the daily scrum itself It's about the purpose behind the daily scrum, but the daily scrum is just a ritual to get you there That's sort of shoe hurry side of things and Whether whether you think looking at something like Kanban whether you think you're visualizing your workflow is a Principle or it's a ritual whether you think putting in Limits your work in progress is a ritual or a principle is kind of a semantic It could be either it could be both But principles are to me a way of linking values and rituals They are the explanation of why certain rituals might be useful to us and might not be based on the values that we have That's that that's the way that I look at it It's very interesting. So based on what you're saying and it's like connection between you know our mindset or you can call it You know values principles and the culture, right the principles sit between You know what we value individually and then the culture and those share another thing that's related to the culture Maybe to go back is the relationships? Right big part is that so maybe how do you undermine so part of those stories part of those? Rituals is also the relationships that emerge and Though those shape culture How do we go about Enriching those relationships is do do agile practices support out like how do we Is it the environment one thing that we didn't discuss which is organizational design and architecture and how does that impact these and I don't know to me and maybe we're going a little bit off topic. So You can steer us, but there's there's an interplay between the actions mindset and values and principles the culture and the the fourth one would be the organizational structures policies and all that and I'm interested, you know, if you want to explore that what is the Yeah, you've given that you've given me a you've basically opened a can there and say exactly. Yeah, and that's cool I mean, I'm a big fan of relationships I believe that pretty much most dysfunctions if not all dysfunctions that you see within organizations are based on mismatched expectations Because everybody wants to do a good job There are very few people out there that enjoy Sabotaging things just for fun. It's usually an unmet needed as a result of that so I spend a lot of time with people with teams working on visualizing the expectations of one another and Once they're visualized Negotiating them and there's a there's a point behind this because the leadership framework that we That we put in place within the organic scaffolding Talks about different leadership archetypes And how none of them are right or wrong none of them are good or bad It's about whether it's appropriate for first of all the context that you're in and secondly what the other party is looking for Because I could come along as a leader and say right Self-organization autonomy that is where we're going so I'm just going to step back and it's all up to you and Sometimes that would be brilliant. Sometimes people would absolutely love that the teams would just run off and do brilliant things Sometimes they would say whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, I what and Be absolutely freaked out by it because they don't have the confidence or the confidence or the conditions to be successful as an Autonomous team equally I could come along as a leader and say right this is this is this there's no argument here I need you to do this and I need you to do it this way. No debate. No discussion. No democracy. No consensus do it Do it this way and sometimes that would be met with massive amounts of motivational debt Sometimes it would be met with half think half of that. Oh, thank you brilliant I'm just glad you've said that and it's not about right or wrong. It's the context again It's coming back to that so having that conversation about well in certain circumstances This is the kind of leadership behavior that people are probably going to respond well to and In certain circumstances, they would respond badly to they would they would incur what we call motivational debt so those relationships are absolutely key and It's not about the traditional leaders adopting those leadership archetypes because we view leadership as something that is a Capability to be encouraged throughout the organization not held in the hands of those at the top of a pyramid But in order to encourage Mindful autonomy we need to spread that leadership throughout so understanding the context for certain leadership archetypes It's something that everybody should be aware of and empowered to to adopt So that would be my view on the relationship side of things and when it comes to the organizational structures again I think for me it's got to be An agile approach So an inspect and adapt approach to it, but value driven so For me agility is not just about doing any old thing and then changing your mind It's about being pretty disciplined about you know focusing on what's important Working with what you do and what you don't know doing the best you can and then reflecting once you've got through the full Feedback loop as soon as possible, and I think the same for me goes with with organizational structure with with architecture with everything is use what you do know Analyze what can be analyzed and then experiment mindfully cheaply carefully and learn and Inspect and adapt so we do a lot of value streaming and then asking our organizations to be very ruthless in Staffing their teams to be able to deliver value and almost without Exception I say almost without exception because I can't trust my memory as much as I used to these days It's all it's resulted in in every organization that we've been with having to do less stuff in order to get more stuff done because they're almost always doing too much stuff and spreading people too thin and Jeopardizing everything that they're doing Because they aren't willing to be ruthless in what they are focusing on in terms of value And it goes back to something you said earlier transparency and visualization I think you know I've been in so many situations where people actually just visualize What they don't and that goes back to also what you said about experience that that's gonna change somebody's mind Or could change potentially somebody's mind When you just see how much stuff you have in progress and what's actually getting done So Let's look at the five principles because then we can tie some of this stuff So the first one increased cultural awareness and coherence that one is situational decision making focus and value creation Validating changes and small increments and optimizing for flow Um are these in any particular order and how did you guys what was that? Experience working and coming up with these with Dave and underwear um Like I said, I can't really rely on my memory as much as I used to But I know it was an intuitive process and it was one of those it's not necessarily a linear thing um because We've started with different teams different organizations with different principles Um, but I think if you look at if you took a large enough sample size You'd say this is probably the most likely Um sequential order and flow of them And so this is how we teach them This is how we uh the order that we talk to people about with them because The first principle around increasing cultural awareness and coherence If if you can't if you're not aware of what your culture is How do you know whether you're making progress towards where you want to be? So it's about getting a baseline and trying to share that baseline Without judgment across the organization Because if we've got different perceptions If we if you and I have a different awareness of what our culture is Then we could quite easily be pulling in very different directions with the same intent But if we are aware Collectively we have a common coherence about what our culture or what our culture is Then we can agree to make movements together in the same direction The danger there is that we're judging things Because we tend to do that as human beings. This is good. This is bad. This is my fault. This is your fault And it's not that's not helpful We are where we are because we've made the best decisions we could in the past. Every process every Story was created with with good intent And every process and procedure that we had in place was was valid for a reason at the point in time There's no point judging it. It's just where we are where we are So getting that awareness and coherence allows us to make more coherent decisions consistent Value-based decisions Which is something then we move on to in principle too, which is situation of decision making Which is where we bring in the idea of the the Kinevin framework and the domains and Complicated in the conversation about efficiency and effectiveness and again neither is good neither is bad It's about what's appropriate for the context Um, and then once we understand There is there are different ways of creating value So if I'm and I can be efficient in creating value or I can be effective in creating value Both are good. Both are bad in the right circumstances. But once I'm aware of that then we can actually focus a lot more Ruthlessly and a lot more mindfully on That value. We're not just being busy for busy's sake. We can actually say, do you know what? Let's let's channel our energies towards this value stream this value stream this value stream and what what it takes both structurally and mindset-wise and skill-based wise To create value in an effective way. It's very different to what's required to create value in an efficient way So we might As ostegada would talk about exploit squads and explore squads and things like that So we can we can focus on value creation But we're not going to get it right straight away. So one of the important things that we need to put in place is this concept of experimentation about trial and error, but not just Not just any kind of trial and error Kind of I was guilty of using the phrase fail fast for a long time And I now now try and use the phrase fail mindfully instead Because it's not just about failing fast. It's about creating the opportunities to learn richly And it's something that I've had a bit of a as we say in England a bee in my bonnet about for a while Yeah, well, it's easy to say fail fast, but what you're saying is You know, you could fail fast and not learn much or you could fail fast and learn a lot from it and also It's about that Experience that you talked about and that's gonna get us to maybe even understand things better and make sense of things a little bit better Yeah What about optimized flow? That's the last one and you said these are in sequential order Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's it's it's not quite as simple as that, but I think it's Well enough to look at that. Yeah, so this is once we once we've got this idea of where our value is coming from And we've you know, we've tried a few things. We've got we've got into a bit of a habit of running safe to fail experiments Then we can start looking at well How can we get that value better? And so coming back to your conversation about structure, whether it be How we structure our people how we structure our departments the policies and processes that support all that We can start asking the questions of what which of these processes policies structures organizational setups hierarchies Matrixes whatever are helping us to live a value and which of them aren't helping us to deliver value Not just in the short term But the long term as well because it's very tempting To optimize for the short term So for example, if you've got an expert in one particular skill to give all that work to the expert, which is very short term effective But it's a long term bottleneck that we're creating So thinking about how we do this as an organization and then slowly Tweaking inspecting and adapting the way that we're set up to get closer and closer to where we think we want to be And then reevaluating Yeah, and something they just said about specifically that You know something like a policy or something like you know short term. I think it goes in relates to structure I was it's been maybe a couple of years now I was working with an executive and we're talking about this stuff and we you know He's like Milan. I know what the right thing to do is but I also have a kid in college and policy Or incentive was annual like if they can do this and deliver this then they're gonna get their bonus So this was contradicting what this person knew was the right thing to do before them to get the bonus They had to focus on short term which actually cost the company lot more long term and This is hard work. So even if we look at these five principles This is difficult companies want Stay they want You know something that they can be comfortable with so when we look at the future of agility and business agility and When you look at the organic agility framework I feel like this is the future But this is really hard work because it puts pressure on organizations to understand these principles and what's behind these principles And it's not just few people understand the organization. This is creating a culture An army of people to understand this stuff. So what do you what are your thoughts on? You know the next five ten years As I believe that these type of framework these type of approaches or principle based pattern based approaches that are not Specific but you have to contextualize How much chains Do you know the frameworks that we currently know have it succeeding and how much are they're exposing? just how The last 10 years may be of adopting and popularizing All of these scaling frameworks has not worked Yeah, and I think that's Yeah, that's key for me. I mean so there's for me There's the market side of things and then there's the personal side of things for me So from a market perspective as as as with everything else. I think the market will sort it out. There will be enough failures of Silver bullets shall we say and the the smart organizations the Yeah, okay brave leaders Because it does take a certain amount of courage to say I'm gonna I'm gonna pass on that off the shelf Yeah, one size fits all thing that this well-paid consultancy is is is offering me and Actually get involved and take the the the less clear path, but the one that instinctively I know is probably right Um It does require courage, but there will be more and more of those that survive and to be honest I think this is where I've changed as a person over the years Is that I used to sort of Lie awake. This is slightly literal slightly metaphorical Lie awake at night worrying that actually there are a lot of organizations out there That we're doing the wrong thing Um, I think now it's not that I don't care It's that actually the ones that Want to go down that route are gonna go down that route the ones that Aren't the ones that are smarter are the ones that are more born to survive if you like I was gonna say survival is optional, right? So yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a really really really good point And there will be more and more and I think we are I don't have the stats to hand Snowden would but um The number of failures of organizations now and the rate of failure, you know The amount of time it takes for a company to fail these days is a lot smaller than it was before But the ones that succeed really succeed and The this isn't a new statement to make but it's something that I've been saying for quite a long time because it's become part of the The agile lexicon if you like is that an agile transformation is a misnomer Because you're never going to be transformed But the organization of today and certainly the organization of tomorrow is one that is continually transitioning And that comes through and I'm interested given your background The transformation is a leftover from a world waterfall world where as you probably know We're not quite as old as Some of the other people in our community and joking, obviously, but What used to happen is you would bring consulting company Like, you know big consulting company every five years. They would Do some type of transformation they would leave and then you'll probably call them So I think that was a leftover from, you know, 80s 90s of these transformations And then we just put an agile label on it and we call the transformation agile transformation But it's exactly same things that they did with waterfall and adapting all of the other approaches And I think if we look at it from a different lens, we And if we suspend that idea of transformation as being a project Rather than ongoing thing that you embed in everything that you do It's a different lens. They we're now looking at everything. It's not once and done But it's something it goes back to that organizational resilience. It's about creating organizational resilience Not transforming organization from one state or another. Yeah Now you spot on and it's it's it goes back to the my point of being brave and I'm just going to amplify that even more because transformation is a really appealing idea because it has a sense of closure to it has a sense of completeness to it And as human beings we're drawn to that. We don't like the idea of being in flux of uncertainty And what we're saying when I say we you know, Andrea Day my other people are saying is actually, you know You need to get used to the fact that you are going to be constantly In a state of flux organizationally and while that might take a little bit of Bravery to come to terms with what you've just said Is exactly right and when you play it back to them think back to the last, you know 20 years of your organization, even if you weren't here for that 20 years look back to the stories How many times have you had a transformation? What's the cycle time of a transformation? And actually has it ever finished before you started the next one? So it's actually reality anyway but Coming to terms with it and explicitly accepting it at two different things Respect to the stories that we tell ourselves, right? We make up um, what about uh, you know, what's your Perspective on how do we measure agility or organizational resilience? Um, so I'm not too worried about measuring agility because like I said, there may be times when actually that's not the right thing for us Um, but I think resilience is an interesting one Um, I think so there's a term that sort of generated in football in the uk called bounce back ability And it was uh, it was termed by a manager of a football team over here in the uk So your ability to bounce back. It's not what happens to you. It's how you recover that kind of thing, you know and I think that's that's Effectively what we're looking for from resilience. Yeah, I mean in an ideal world if you if you took that model If you took uh talib's model, you'd be looking for anti fragility. That might be too expensive. It might be too extreme So resilience is good enough. So how do you what's what's the sort of proxymetric for resilience? Well for me And the question I ask leaders is how quickly And how effectively can you rechannel your resources your money your your? Assets your people into a new opportunity Or to stave off a new threat How quickly can you do that? Because you can't necessarily predict them All right, it's not about trying to predict these threats It's how quickly can you respond to them and effectively And that's I don't think that's necessarily got a label yet But that question how quickly can you do that? And can you do that quick enough to survive? first of all And can you do it quicker than everybody else so that actually you can take advantage of these changes And I think that's that's the measure. That's the metric that I tend to get people to look for Even if I'm not necessarily Encouraging them to look for numbers for them That's a really good way and remind me of uh, you know, one of the ways that will give you that It's options right once you're you know options in creating those options to to respond or to redirect and You've focused a lot on self mastery and you've developed course communities and That self master is also developing people I don't know if you're familiar with fidelity here in the United States, but and they're not the first ones But like for instance, they give their people One day a week or most programs or product lines give their people one day a week Tuesday usually to focus on You know self development You can watch, you know, youtube videos or you can you know do some productive You don't have to report what you've done But it's really encouraging people to develop that self mastery So I believe that I can give the company that resilience and options if they need to change and will so Coming to self mastery what I mean, what would you How do you define self mastery? What's the importance of you obviously the design courses you've talked a lot about it Could you maybe shed some light light on Self mastery and how you see it play the role in that organizational resilience Yeah, so for me self mastery is becoming much more aware of my triggers my strengths and whether my strengths are actually Working for me Or not which might sound like a strange thing to say But I think everything that we've every strength that we've got has the potential to become a weakness for us And every weakness that we've got has the potential to provide some strength So self mastery is becoming much more aware of where those traits if you like are whether we're overdoing them whether we're underdoing them whether we've got them in balance and these traits could be anything from perfectionism to performance anxiety or people policing These aren't necessarily hard skills like Java development or anything like that. These are actual mind skills if you like And I think for us a lot of our decisions are based on our beliefs Not just about what's going on in our environment or our society, but also what's going on in our heads And a lot of that stuff happens unconsciously So self mastery for me is about bringing that Into the conscious mind so that we can be more mindful about it In a non-judgmental way So that we can actually leverage them for us Now if I'm more aware and in control of my thought patterns my scripts Then I can respond more mindfully to the situations Rather than responding instinctively or emotionally And at an individual level that's important for resilience because it makes me much more able to cope with change Cope with what might be perceived as threats And ultimately our organizations are a collection of individuals the stories that we create So looking at that at an organizational level if we have a bunch of self-aware people who have mastered them Although it's a journey. It's not a destination And if but we have a level of a certain higher level of self mastery within our people Then we can we can expect to be more resilient as an organization And that's just what we think of like the first two Principles in the organic agility framework cultural awareness And coherence as well as a situation of decision-making. So We have awareness and then what we haven't talked about is sense making collective individual sense making. There's a relationship with I'm assuming the more aware of The more aware we are of our own thought processes of You know the the inner kind of operating model and The better that we make sense of things And the better the the higher collective self-awareness is the better collective sense making is is there do you see it that way? Is there that Is there a connection maybe Or some type of connection between the awareness and sense making both individual level and collective well Yeah, I think you've made a really good connection there so What I can do here is in my head is I can I can visualize some of the things that we do which I can't necessarily replicate here certainly not on an audio podcast, but imagine imagine a heat map of of data points and These data points all have You can drill down into them and so you can find out from this data point. You know who made that decision Uh, how quickly that decision was made. How do we feel about that decision? What factors went into making that decision and all these different sort of components to the decision and also look at well, you know, what kind of leadership style was in play at the time what kind of team composition was in play at the time and Did that turn out to be a positive result for us or or A negative result for us and we can start to look at this data But that visualization of you know big data within the organization allows us to make sense of the situation Um across the organization and that works at a personal level as well So if I could become more aware of what's going on for me And when I was thinking this way when I was making these assumptions this led to this kind of result And it was favorable for me or not Then I can make more. Um, I can use that empirical approach both at a personal and organizational level So it's absolutely linked. You're absolutely right Interesting Um, we have a few minutes left here. Um, what would you like to share with the community any Tips any takeaways any invitations? I know you're doing a lot of stuff. I'm your only building a community. How would you like to Finish it. It's interesting. You use the word community. That's certainly since the since the pandemic started that's something that I I mean, I've always been involved in things like meet-up groups and conferences and things but I I found The disconnect and the the feeling of isolation increased quite a lot Across the people. So I'm lucky in that I have you know connections to lots of different organizations lots of different communities Lots of different groups But quite a lot of people in organizations feel quite on their own when they when they're trying to Be a change agent when they're trying to make change happen Um, and the the inability to travel and the inability to meet up in person really hit these people So I I put a lot of effort in trying to create a safer community one that wasn't like other potential social media channels which had a lot of ego and you know Trolling and things where people could share their experiences where they could Ask questions Where and we've had special guests come on we do little private workshops and things Um sharing articles. We have themes of the month and it's we've got over 500 people now Who from different countries from different organizations and it's you know completely free Um, we've got a code of conduct that we expect people to sign up to but that's you know, that's pretty much it and It's it's helping people um, just explore Different ideas but in a in a safe respectful way. So I would encourage people I would invite people to come along It's called Jeff's agile mastery community Right and I'll include in the link below so it's easier for people to click on Anything else any other tips for coaches for leaders for anybody or anything else that maybe we didn't touch upon but No, I'm usually share with people Um, because my work is so varied. It's it's it's difficult to um to pinpoint on something but you What I will say is It's We're all doing a really tough job uh, everybody's doing a tough job and um, I think Certainly recently I've noticed a trend of people People's self confidence and self doubt dropping quite a lot. It's quite easy to To not see the good in what we're doing and First of all do that for yourself Take a little bit of time out pat yourself on the back for things that you've been doing Um, but also make sure that when somebody that you see that somebody that you know has done something good Just go a little bit out your way and let them know that they've been seen because People are a lot less visible than they used to be That would be my that would be my message