 Has he blown it? That's the question that's been on the lips of all Labour Watchers this weekend as Keir Starmer's bungled reshuffle left his personal authority in tatters. The next question that follows from that, if he is mortally wounded, who will benefit? Now, we hope it's the left. We'll be talking about how the left can have a strategy to benefit if Keir Starmer does tumble, crumble. But there's reasons to not be that confident. For me, number one among them is the weakness of the left in the PLP, both numerically and in terms of people who could credibly pose a leadership challenge, or even short of that, who can credibly challenge Keir Starmer and how people listen to them. That doesn't mean, though, that there are no left-wing MPs with the ability to strategize, to persuade, and potentially even to inspire. One of them is Clive Lewis, who will be joining us a little bit later on tonight's show. First of all, I'm joined by my own personal inspiration. Dalia Gabriel, how are you doing? I'm doing good. I will not be throwing my hat in the ring for leadership of the Labour Party. So I'll put those rumours to rest. I'm not planning to get in there anytime soon. Half our audience will be dropping off now. It will never happen. I can guarantee you. As you can imagine, we're going to be mainly focusing on Labour tonight, but we're also going to give you a quick update on the latest with Britain's Covid epidemic, which is a good news story, actually. And we are going to close the show with a discussion about what's currently going on in Jerusalem. Really, really awful scenes. I've got two great guests speaking about that. And before we do get started, we've had lots of new subscribers recently. Welcome if you are new. It's so great to have you on board. If you haven't yet, though, do hit that subscribe button. That's how you will know every time we go live. And particularly if we do these impromptu shows. So on this weekend, if you weren't subscribed, if you didn't have notifications, you might not have realised we did a live show on Saturday and on Sunday. We had 4,000 people watching live last night for our free hour epic, because we were waiting for the reshuffle to finish. So it's lucky he did it before 10, is all I can say. If you're on Twitch, do hit that follow button. Let's start with what we've learnt over the last 24 hours or 21 hours since we were last live on YouTube. And this is essentially some details about Angela Reiner's new job and then some of the other shadow cabinet positions. What I want to focus on, first of all, is the Angie Keir standoff. So the dispute that took place between them over the past 48 hours, what it means right now for the party. So what we have learnt since last night, according to briefings in this morning's newspapers, is that the original plan was for Keir Starmer to put Angela Reiner in health. So that would be replacing Jonathan Ashworth. She refused. She is now shadow chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, shadow first secretary of state, deputy leader of the opposition, and shadow secretary of state for the future of work. So she's got a lot of jobs under her belt, shadow chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, that's shadowing Michael Gove's job, shadow first secretary of the shadow first secretary of state. So that the actual first secretary of state, that's Dominic Raab. It's essentially deputy prime minister if Boris Johnson can't attend PMQs and it'll be Dominic Raab versus Angela Reiner. I mean go to a thread from Angela Reiner explaining her new roles. So she tweeted, I came into politics as a shop steward standing up for Keir workers on the minimum wage. In my new roles I will focus on the future of work and the future of our economy, working with our trade union movement to deliver good well-paid jobs in every region and every community. I will take the fight to the Tories on their dodgy contracts and sleaze and I will set out Labour's policy to replace taunt, recroneism and cash for mates with an insourcing revolution so that public services are delivered in the public interest, not for private profit. She goes on, I will work tirelessly to reform our party and deliver a policy agenda that will enable us to reconnect with the voters that we need to win, especially in our traditional heartlands and show that the Labour Party speaks to the working class. This is our founding mission. She goes on, I also want to thank friends from all across the Labour Party and our movement who have been in touch with me, united we stand, divided we fall, the past we inherit, the future we build, solidarity. So she's really coming out fighting there, especially saying I thank you for all the support you've given me over the last weekend, which is essentially her saying, by the way Keir, when you tried to sack me, lots of people spoke out against it, didn't they? I'm sure she's feeling fairly popular, I suppose, at the moment. Obviously not with the leader's office, but it seems like they'd fallen out a while ago anyway. Now, one of the developments that added to the farce of the weekend was that after getting all these new jobs, so four of them, I think two of them she already had, Reina's team sort of spun this as a win. Keir Starmer wanted to demote her, she ended up getting, but we'll discuss later whether or not it was a promotion, but she ended up getting all these jobs that she wasn't going to originally get. However, while her team was saying this is a win, this is a promotion, Starmer's team pushed back against the claim. This was Harry Cole from The Sun, he tweeted yesterday. Her allies, that's Reina's allies, said the multiple jobs added up to a promotion, but Starmer's supporters rejected that as spin, anger after a day of chaos triggered by early leaks, overshadowed silver linings on Super Thursday pounding, a total normal shadow reshuffle from team competence. That's a very dismissive there from Harry Cole. What I wanted to focus on there though was Starmer's team now briefing that this was not a promotion. If Angela Reina is saying it's a promotion, that's spin from her people, which is odd because it was the spin of Team Starmer on Sunday morning that Angela Reina didn't actually get sacked, she got promoted. So you remember if you watched yesterday's show, we showed that clip of Ian Murray speaking to Sophie Ridge on Sky saying, no, no, she hasn't been sacked, she's been promoted. Sophie Ridge asked him to promote it to what he says, oh, I don't know, I don't know what she's been promoted to, but she's been promoted. Now they're saying actually a demotion. Now if this all sounds a bit ridiculous, which it does, wait until you hear this nugget from the Times on the context of the original fallout between Keir Starmer and his deputy. So the Times reported today, in perhaps the strangest indication of disunity, Labour sources claim that a party official eating in an Indian restaurant hundreds of miles from Westminster last summer heard a woman saying that her child worked for Reina, did not like Starmer and wished Jeremy Corbyn was still leader. When reported back to London, this was taken as a sign of disloyalty at the heart of Reina's operation. The allegation was forcefully denied by Reina's team after its members had consulted their mothers. So the original beef, apparently I'm sure there's more to it, but one of the original beefs was that someone overheard someone who was talking about being the mother of someone who worked for Angela Reina who didn't like Jeremy Corbyn in a curry house hundreds of miles from London. All very odd. Dahlia, I don't know how gripped you have been to Twitter and to Sky News or however you consume all of this nonsense. Do you think Keir Starmer has been significantly weakened by this? I mean I don't see how he comes back from something like this and what he is demonstrating here is shocking political judgment and we say that not from just from the perspective of you know not liking him because he has made an enemy of the left or because he has you know unprovoked started an incredibly brutal war with progressives in the left of the party but because for his own from his own perspective the sacking of Angela Reina was just such a poor exercise of judgment not only because you know and I think that there is something obviously to the fact that that sacking you know one of the most prominent northern women in the party is a poor exercise of judgment but I also think that we shouldn't act like just having a northern woman with a working class background in a high position of power is going to fix the systemic issues that we have in the Labour Party right now but also because Angela Reina is so popular within the Parliamentary Labour Party as we can see as we we have known for such a long time by the number of nominations she got and the fact that really Angela Reina occupies a very unique position and therefore is a very powerful asset to Keir Starmer if his uh if his sort of brand is to unify the Labour Party but also because Keir Starmer doesn't have the membership you know he has made his him and those around him have made their opinions of the membership very clear they have nothing but contempt for the members they call the members trots cranks you know including all of the people that go out in canvas and have canvas for hours and hours for their very their own campaigns you know they have nothing but contempt essentially for for the members and so if you don't have the membership you've got to have the plp you can't you can't have neither otherwise you really have no root to to maintaining any kind of discipline or or integrity or or faith of of the party your your position will become very very tenuous and so to willingly throw away the plp on top of not having the membership I don't understand what he thinks his path to sustaining power in the party is beyond another year maximum I don't understand how he sees that happening without either of those levers because Jeremy Corbyn always had one of them Jeremy Corbyn always had the members and he always had the base and but he didn't have the plp the the whole point with Keir Starmer is he had the plp and now he's thrown that away by essentially transferring power to a very very small minority of people who have repeatedly lost leadership elections and who have repeatedly backed losing candidates and thrown away someone who and also you know another thing this whole idea that Angela Reina was so disloyal Angela Reina I never saw Angela Reina ever depart from the party line even at times when she really should have you know for example around the sacking of Rebecca Long Bailey times where she really needed to she didn't so to to sack someone who was not only incredibly loyal but who is an incredible asset for you in the plp it's poor judgment and it tells the British public that this is not a man who's going to be able to actually keep a country together well I think the message it's sending at this point in time is especially to the MPs because as we said yesterday I'm not sure how much the general public follow this stuff but what's happening now I think is that all of his allies in parliament or not so much as his strong allies but all the people who were who assumed that he was this competent guy who could potentially take them into government or you know could at least competently oversee the party while they you know euthanize the left I think it's probably their plan they're now having second thoughts because they think this guy is completely useless you know he can't find his way out of a paperback yeah it's the incompetence which again you know this whole idea of being a competent operator was so integral to his brand that was all projected on him by the way that was never anything that you could see I mean the man was a fervent supporter of the second referendum so we can't really say that there's no evidence but that was part of his brand but also he was given a gift in his election you know he had at the very beginning he had the benefit of the doubt of a lot of the of left-wing members you know a lot of left-wing members me not included um not that I'm a member but you know in terms of people who are interested in the Labour Party but you know benefit of the doubt you know people like my mom sort of let's see what he can do and he had you know the confidence of the soft left and he had you know a lot of the Labour right willing to give him a shot and he squandered it and I don't think he can come back from it hmm let's have a look a bit more at Angela Rainer's position and where it leaves her because as I said she's been spinning it as a more powerful job than her previous one Stammer's team changed their story basically every hour it's an emotion no it's a promotion no it's an emotion um people on the left seem a bit split on this as well there was a left-winger who spoke to Alex Wickham from Politico in the morning email so a former front bench we can get up this quote which is very interesting um so Wickham wrote in his morning email one former front bencher told playbook she had folded on the first round and was now powerless the person lamented the soft left has been routed from the party it's a complete coup d'etat from the right over the next few years they'll be liquidated from the front bench and shuffled out of existence now that's a very I mean it's an interesting comment I mean I think there's a lot of truth for it in the you know to the extent that's what Kirsten Armour wants to do I do think that so long as Kirsten Armour is unable to change the leadership rules I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they do try and do that quite soon that should be really resisted but if he does really make an enemy of all of the soft left then you could be looking at a leadership contest before the next general election especially if he has some you know more poor by-election results I suppose what his team are guessing is that even if you get even if you kick the soft left out of your front bench out of your top team they're also terrified of a call tonight winning again that they'll just sort of go along with it because they're too terrified of the alternative they'd prefer to just stay in um low risk low stress junior ministerial positions they can write some policy papers get paid occasionally go on sort of like a second rate radio station and and sort of you know pass their days like like that but I think if if he does if he tries to humiliate people like he humiliated Angela Rainer that's when he's at serious risk because if you try and humiliate enough people that's when you end up having a leadership challenge um darling do you think Angela Rainer was correct to accept her position I guess she's still wanting to kind of at least at the moment I think it will be a while before we see any serious leadership challenges because who wants who wants to be at the helm of this ship uh quite frankly so I think she's probably sort of putting her ducks in a row and sort of thinking okay I'll accept this for now and sort of figure out what my long-term strategy is is going forward but especially you know a lot of the reports that we've had coming out is that this is not a sort of one-off moment of disagreement that actually she has felt shut out and disrespected for a very long time now and not to mention as well that Angela Rainer you know I have my critiques of her I'm not a massive fan or anything but she was the only person in the kind of top echelons of the Labour Party with any any any morsel of a relationship to the Labour Party and to the Labour movement sorry um and so I think also what part because we have to think of the what was who is the audience of this reshuffle you know I think we have to think I always think it's funny when in response to bad local elections parties sort of reshuffle their cabinets around like anyone gives a fuck um as if people sitting in badly in Spain are like oh I wasn't going to vote for the Labour Party when Annalise Dogs was shadow chancellor but Rachel Reeves my goodness you know it changes everything the audience for this reshuffle as always with reshuffles is is lobby journalists and it's you know major business you know big business major private donors it's a plea to them basically saying please can we go back to that lovely honeymoon period where you guys loved me for no reason other than I was a sentient human being that wasn't Jeremy Corbyn um so please can we go back to that and so he is trying to cultivate that again by culling anyone who has any connection with the Labour movement through signalling a return to Blairism and thinking because they're thinking to themselves oh well you know the last time we had the media on our side we did this this and this so let's just do that again you know trying to kind of recreate conditions um that existed 20 years ago but they're not realising that the establishment media and indeed like the various establishments that make up the character of the state are always going to prioritise the Conservative Party especially when the Conservatives are at the moment keeping together the social fabric of the country seeming to have command over the social fabric of the country and it's only when the Tories fail at to keep a lid on that social contract that a right-wing Labour Party will be allowed to squeak in and have power whilst the Tories rebuild themselves so but that's firstly that is only going to work on the schedule of the Conservative Party and the lobby media but it demonstrates again this lack of realisation and this lack of understanding that there has to be a different pathway to power and I'm not saying that that's easy um you know there are systemic barriers to a Labour Party government right now ones that are very difficult to overcome they're ones that are not going to be they're not going to go away just by having you know a slick operator or a slick leader or even having you know a set of popular policies those and those systemic factors they include things like the media the concentration of the media the monopoly model of the media that is even worse than it was you know 20 30 years ago um it's also about the the the geography of class right now the fact that we are seeing you know the precarious uh young working class increasingly concentrating into urban centres meaning that vast ways of our electoral map are comprised of people who are properties um who who have a very different kind of relationship to class and you know that kind of the the intense urbanisation that defines our economy right now means that the the geography of the of the working class is very difficult for the Labour Party to kind of turn into an electoral victory it's also you know policies like the one that we're going to see we're likely to see come through around you know having national ID necessary for to vote in in general elections so it's a very there's a very difficult roadmap to power they're very difficult systemic blocks and Keir Starmer is trying to short circuit that systemic issue by simply trying to get the media on his side but it's not going to work and so what we're going to see is a repetition of the same mistakes that we have been seeing that have consistently and chronically led to labour losses and that is epitomised in the fact that Angela Rayner is even being seen as too connected to the labour movement to be in the higher echelons of of the party um so I think that's what we're seeing play out right now and it still shows this attempt to short circuit deep strategic organisational issues that we need someone who has excellent judgement excellent creativity excellent understanding in order to develop a model and a pathway to power that can happen despite those those those obstacles and trying to just cozy up and get the validation of the lobby media it's not going to work and it never will no matter who no matter how much you alienate your base it's not going to cut it anymore is it let's go to some comments um Jan Moog with a tenor asks could you wish my wife Maisie a happy birthday she is 57 today and Anarko fabulous we are longtime Navara supporters and watch every show together happy 57 from what a lovely message red baron says been watching for a long time the show last night was amazing you guys always keep us smiling Keir is not our ally IMO he's certainly not our ally if it was ever in doubt it is no longer um Ishtaq with 4.99 I overheard in a Brumtown kebab shop that Mandelson is a waistband Tisgis out guests looking even more paying recently um and Clive isn't even on yet and Joshua Youngerman says was Ash a casualty of Michael's cabinet reshuffle or did she just pull a hamstring in disgust watching the Tottenham match on Saturday I think if I tried to reshuffle Ash against her will I'd be in a lot more trouble than kids Dharma is right now Ash is just swapped with Dahlia this week Ash will be on Wednesday and we're lucky enough to have Dahlia on Monday today so a simple swap no underlying political maneuverings there one background to this reshuffle other than the names involved was also the numbers so before the reshuffle Labour had 27 shadow cabinet ministers and there were only 21 actual cabinet ministers so this was already a situation where we had some shadow cabinet ministers for positions that didn't exist in the actual cabinet this was because Labour created roles such as shadow secretary of state for mental health that like this is important and after that would be a ministry where we in government now before the reshuffle there were rumours that Stammer wanted to reduce the number of shadow cabinet ministers to save costs because every time you have a shadow cabinet minister the part is obliged to pay for a certain number of advisers for them so say let's let's cull this let's get it down closer to 21 like the number of actual cabinet ministers however because it was such a poorly handled reshuffle because he couldn't sack anyone after the reshuffle we could sack just a couple of people there are now 33 members of the shadow cabinet so it's got even even bigger I think we have Clive in now Clive you're here I want to know from you where am I can you see you had some tech problems but I can see you know yeah I know it's great Fox is saying tilt your tilt your camera ever so slightly but it's it's all looking good perfect perfect what I want to know from you quick fire right Keir Stammer is making up shadow cabinet positions left right and centre if you were to write your own job description in a Keir Stammer administration what would it be Minister for existential crisis I think no that's good that's good I think that's that should exist obviously that could mean a number of things including planetary civilisation and the future of humankind or it could mean Labour Party but yeah I mean take your pick we're going to go to some of the positions in the shadow cabinet in a moment what that says about the political direction of the party and first of all I want your general take on I suppose the events of the past 48 hours do you think Keir Stammer is mortally wounded from it all yes yeah I mean you may have seen my tweet I kind of summed it up as a mess which in my circles just means it's the kind of thing that happens when you you wake up after particularly messy night on a few drinks and you just look around your kitchen and it's just completely trash and it's just a mess and I just think unfortunately look I gotta be really I'm gonna be really careful here I have noted from some commentary on this that there is a sense of shard and fraud about you know kind of deserving they deserve what's happened and I think we have to understand that whilst they may have made poor decisions that have left that have led them to where they are ultimately it's the people that I came into politics for and the issues that I care about passionately and many of the people who are watching this program do and the people those are the issues that suffer those are the people that are going to suffer and whatever we think of Keir Stammer is decision-making or lack of the reality is this is a mess this will affect all progressives you know and I was saying the day you know you'll see greens and others up and down on this ultimately it's just people shuffling a handful of votes between each other this this this is a problem for all progressives in this country anyone that wants to see a kind of country that I think we all want to live in this is problematic for all of us we have to sort it out uh implicit in that is those who are making the mess listening and they're not um but you know that's often the way with our leaders the hubris of being in leadership is that you don't have to listen anymore you know best and clearly that isn't the case um it's not been limited it's not limited to Keir Stammer that's a number of people I think Keir is in a weak position I think I think he could have possibly come out swinging this week if the shadow cabinet reshuffle had not been such a catastrophe um and I think it was a complete shambles I think they know that he knows that and I think he's I think his authority has been undermined I mean I saw the off the record briefings people the way that people are talking about him it's going to be difficult to come back from that and that's a that's a problem for all of us um it's a problem for Keir Stammer it's a problem for the Labour Party you only have to look now I talked to journalists um from you know from the Guardian from from uh other papers uh other organizations and institutions and there's a sense I think there was a sense initially that this was someone who was serious that they you know this is someone who who could take labor back to winning ways that's now moved into the realms it's gone it's moved into the realms basically of ridicule and despair by some journalists about what's happening so I think it is difficult to come back um but that doesn't mean that work can't be done in the interim to try to rebuild it doesn't mean that maybe now maybe they'll want to listen a little bit more I don't know whether that's the case that maybe wishful thinking on my part but to be quite frank it looks like the chest is pretty empty we've got Anna these dots um who's going to be chairing the policy review we've got Angela Rainer in a more beefed-up position you know I was listening is it a promotion isn't it well she's going to have to make as much of it as she can um is there now an opportunity for us to really grip how we how we form policy make it as democratic as possible and learn there's a massive energy that's come out of the Corbyn movement that's come out of the left over the last five years some of the think tanks and thinkers that are coming out some of the ideas that are there now there's a rich and diverse uh amounts of of potential policy areas which I think the party can tap into but you know that your your speaker before was explaining this isn't just about policy it isn't just about who's leading the party isn't just about who's in the shadow cabinet that's not that's this is existential this is structural there is a shift taking place and it has been taking place for a long time uh in the voting patterns in this country you know the Labour Party was formed more than a hundred years ago that world has more or less disappeared your you know your guest was talking about the fact that you know there was a concerted effort to try to sideline someone who was seen as too close to organised labour well I think that was true but ask yourself this question why would you be able to get away with that if organised labour wasn't in a particularly weak position uh already organised labour the labour movement is struggling at the moment I know we have millions of members it is still our best hope for being for change and creativity but at the moment the trade unions are looking in many ways as we can irrelevant in some in some in some respects as the Labour Party that's not all their own fault because they've been attacked for the last 40 years by government after government and the last labour government new labour never reversed any of that any of that legislation but the reality is the labour movement needs to be able to come up with more ideas become more creative I mean I've been reading articles today about the cooperative movement the Preston model about what why isn't it that the labour movement the trade union movement the kind of consumer cooperative movement are using a similar model themselves to build support to build capacity whether that's in media whether that's in any particular area inwards inside working-class communities inside our media power bases inside the things which we take and use every day so you know that there are things that we can do but we have to start thinking outside the box and and I would say if you really want in terms of a policy review a policy agenda to kind of tap into that rich creativity and make that policy review as democratic as possible bring from the bottom up not from the top down and that's what we've done for too long so look I mean this is all I'm sorry to interject but this is all nice you know our audience probably thinking everything I'm suggesting is is is nice it sounds like a nice a nice idea but the labour party currently has a leader with no interest in doing any of that and it it seems as if actually there isn't much leverage outside of the leader's office which would be why many people would be I suppose cheering Kirstama struggling because they'd be saying look to have the kind of creative mobilizing vision that you're talking about there the party essentially needs a different leader well possibly um in terms of seeing a kind of radical change that our party operates from a bottom up less centralized is possible yeah um but you know one of the things I think is politics isn't who it's how and I'm tired of the beauty pageants you know you know you get it on Twitter this person make a good leader this person Andy it's Andy Vernon one week it's Clive Lewis another week it's Angelina another week you know it's it's Zara Saltana the week after all at the same time you know why do we look to individuals on a white horse to come and do this we are because that's how it works isn't it you know the real problem for the left but maybe maybe maybe we need to look to ourselves maybe that's where maybe we need to look to leadership to ourselves more often uh have more confidence about our movements have more confidence about leading ourselves rather than looking to others to do that in Westminster I just think at the moment you know from my perspective representative democracy is in crisis there is a crisis of democracy um I think the representative class have become a class under themselves they've been booked written on this they've been around for the the donkeys years which explain that once you create an organization and have elected representatives they become a class under themselves you're not like I think that I think and I'm part of that class but you know I can still doesn't mean I can't see it and I just think you know one of the things we could be talking about is a lot more about direct deliberative democracy and power and people and I think you know there's there's a lot that we can be doing ourselves and I understand you know look it's it's interesting to it's a it's a kind of Dallas isn't it with different drama and scenes going on with Angelina Rainer and Bobby Ewing and everything else happening on the shadow cabinet and who's in and who's out and it's interesting it's like a soap opera and everyone can get behind it and get their popcorn and start eating but actually in terms of actually changing the well we live in building a better country do I want Dallas deciding how that operates how it works no I don't and that's what it feels like to me it's a circus um and it's upsetting I have to admit a lot of people uh like a lot of people I had nightmares last night I had two sets of nightmares um recurring nightmares which was I know what they are I know why I have to take a nightmare it was about ghosts um and it's about me feeling powerless powers and I feel powerless I feel despondent at the moment and and I think there's a lot of people out there that feel the same way so you know how do I respond to that well you have to pick yourself up touch yourself down and carry on with what you are doing trying to build the movement trying to build capacity trying to do the thinking that needs to be done because at some point Keir Starmer won't be there at some point there will be opportunities for change but in that interim I think we're going to have to do things ourselves look Navarra media is a classic example you haven't waited for the mainstream media to turn around and start being fair to Labour you've gone out and created this organization yourself but there isn't there isn't the first class opposed to electoral system when it comes to to representative democracy and there is one when it comes to media I want to um how long have we got you for tonight Clive uh as long as you need me perfect I'm going to get your comments on some more of these positions on the shadow cabinet let's go through um some of the other shifts other than Angela Rainer um so the other main promotions of the reshuffle included um Alan Campbell who is now opposition chief whip um he's been given the job after 10 years as a deputy whip um as a deputy chief whip sorry he's replaces Nick Brown he's also got Shabana Mood who replaces Angela Rainer as national campaigns coordinator but the most high profile promotion and the most significant one politically is what we're going to talk about next first of all um a couple of comments sell biology shorts with a tenor respect to Michael for his four night stint I wouldn't prefer to be doing anything else honestly um although the weather to be honest I did kind of want to go for a pint but that's today I always work on Monday Razia D with 499 solidarity with the people of Sheikh Jarrah please join us outside Downing Street at 6 p.m tomorrow if you can we'll be talking about that particular issue a lot more towards the end of the show and Monica Weidman with 20 quid says an a for effort Navarra thanks for all the fantastic coverage relentless reporting and astute assessments of our political happenings I love every moment also big yay for Clive um a couple more I'll go to later um let's go to the big move of the reshuffle which was Rachel Reeves replacing Annalise Dodds as shadow chancellor now Rachel Reeves is I suppose is the object of suspicion would be the kindest way to put it um by many on the left because of an interview she gave to the Guardian in 2013 and when she had just been promoted to shadow secretary of state for work and pensions under the leadership of Ed Miliband um now if you've been on Twitter in the last 24 hours you've probably seen this screenshot shared this was the the headline and that accompanied that interview said labor will be tougher than Tories on Benefits promises new welfare chief the sub padding there Rachel Reeves vows to cut welfare bill enforce long-term jobblers to take up work offers or lose state support um now that's obviously the headline let's go to what she actually said um so in that interview it's just as harsh I have to say um nobody should be under any illusions that they are going to be able to live a life on benefits under a labor government if you can work you should be working and under our compulsory job guarantee if you refuse that job you forgo your benefits and that is really important it is not an either or question we would be tougher than the conservatives if they don't take it the offer of a job they will forfeit their benefit but there will also be the opportunities there under a labor government we have got some really great policies particularly around the jobs guarantee and canceling the bedroom tax that show that we are tough and will not allow people to linger on benefits but also that we are fair where there are pernicious policies like the bedroom tax we will repeal them um clive I want your commentary on this particular appointment I mean obviously this was said in 2013 but this is the kind of rhetoric you know the kind of politics I think that many of us hoped were you know sealed in a tomb within the labor party right this idea that you you complain about people lingering on benefits and now the person who is most associated with some of those policies is now in the top economic job does that worry you yeah um I mean I obviously heard as others have that Rachel Reese has been on a journey um there are lots of people in politics that have been on journeys that's fine you know we're all human we all grow we all change hopefully for the better um but ultimately you know what I see when I see too many um members of my own party in politics talk about the need to occupy the centre ground of British politics that was then considered you know austerity um benefit sheets coming down hard on on benefit sheets and benefits this was considered where the middle ground of British politics was which is you know I think we can frankly say bollocks it's no longer there now and this is the issue about the middle ground of British politics it doesn't exist it's a mythical place Boris Johnson and the Tories are now handing us our backsides showing us that the middle the middle ground isn't a mythical place fixed in aspic in politics it shifts it changes it's wherever you wanted to be and wherever you make the argument for it to be and Boris Johnson in power has made the argument that creating money creating money from the Bank of England and spending it which was considered socialist heresy before is now the thing that you can do to invest in in green infrastructure jobs and and everything else that they're doing and ultimately I think that what the mistake too many people are party and Rachel Reaves is one of them which you will call the kind of Blair right centrist addition is that they have this belief that there is a centre ground but what it actually is it's wherever the ruling dominant conservative party are it's calibrating where they are and where the mainstream media which are often supported by them are and then calibrating yourself accordingly that's not good enough not if you're a party of principle not if you have values and you actually believe in something actually believe in changing the world and making it better unless you think that where they are is somewhere to aspire to because otherwise you're moving halfway towards them at the very least or further so ultimately you know this is the whole notion of centrism and I and for me it's a busted flush so if Rachel Reaves is no longer a centrist maybe there's hope if she is a centrist then her and the rest of the party who consider themselves a centrist are going to be basically coordinating themselves they're going to be basically what's the word I'm looking for orientating themselves off the Tories and wherever that is and that means on their English nationalism their growing authoritarianism their anti-democracy credentials all of that and I just don't think that's something that's going to work we're going to see ourselves nibble to death by Greens and Liberal Democrats and new political parties that are now setting up so ultimately Rachel Reaves is I think is representative of a strand in our party which has given up the ghost of socialism never has been socialist and we saw that under new labour and it's basically retin blue team well it's our turn to be in charge now and we won't make the argument for anything that's fundamentally different we'll simply calibrate ourselves from where you are and once you implode once you go tide of being in power once the mainstream media and civil society have grown tired of you it'll be our turn but we won't be anything transformative about what we're doing there won't be anything that changes the world in a fundamental way and that's the problem with centrism and that's why if it is dominant and back in the driving seat in our party again we are not going to be going towards electoral success which I think we can see already because I'll tell you what centrism looks like with this government it's standing in front of a flag with a pint and frankly I think we saw the result of that in Harlepool. And eating fish and chips when you're a vegetarian that was a strange image from the campaign. Keir Starmer there's a picture of him eating fish and chips when there's also interviews where he says he's a vegetarian but it's a minor it's a minor point I want to go to some comments from Rachel Reeves because I want to take seriously the idea that she has been on a journey and there are some people who've said it who I don't you know dismiss out of hand at all and first of all and when it comes to this journey I want to go to an interview Reeves did with the new statesman earlier this year she was asked specifically I'm about that interview with the Guardian and she told the new statesman I was trying to make the point however badly that spending more on benefits wasn't always a sign of success and actually the benefits bill goes up when society fails maybe I didn't always say it right but that was the point I was trying to make she goes on look perhaps it wasn't the right job for me at the right time I definitely feel like a better politician and maybe more careful about what I say now than I was then but I was trying to get a Labor government I was trying to address some of our weaknesses now to bonus I don't think those last two sentences will be particularly reassuring to anyone I was I was trying to get a Labor government I'll say anything to get one but let's put that to one side for a moment the people who have come out and said maybe we should have an open mind are a former Corbyn and McDonnell advisor and a former Corbyn advisor both we've had on the on the show so James Mill James Mills did work for John McDonnell and then Corbyn he says controversial take for some but on the Rachel Reeves appointment I think it's worth keeping an open mind given her main recent interventions have been advocating insourcing I think Blair Wright labels are not very accurate it feels a more post 2011 Ed Miliband appointment to be honest and Andrew Fisher who was obviously head of policy under Jeremy Corbyn you know he got the credit for the 2017 manifesto he tweets I think James Mills is right keep an open mind people's views can change look at how Ed Miliband has gone from austerity light controls on immigration merchant to being invited to Navar and these ups at conference policies not personalities let's see some of the former and Dalia I want to get your take on this the idea of someone being on a journey and I think actually here for me what's most interesting is the Ed Miliband comparison because ultimately if you are the shadow work and pension secretary what you're saying is essentially the lines and the direction that was set by the leader Ed Miliband was the leader it was Ed Miliband who signed off all of that shit about people lingering on benefits right and I do actually think that Ed Miliband has changed I do think that he does seem to be one of the the proponents of a more transformative radical policy within the shadow cabinet should we give Rachel Reeves the same benefit of the doubt therefore I mean I think the last thing that we need is another flip-flopping politician someone who seems to go wherever the wind or their career takes them so even if we were to give the benefit of the doubt which I don't that isn't exactly something to be excited about and I also think the Ed Miliband question is so prescient here actually because the issue for Ed Miliband because I actually don't know if Ed Miliband did go on a journey I think he actually always kind of had that politics many have said that that you know the 2017 manifesto was actually much more representative of his own politics than the 2015 manifesto was and even it was more representative of Ed Miliband's personal politics than it was of Jeremy Corbyn's personal politics but he didn't have the metal he didn't have the conviviction he didn't have the creativity to figure out how to make that politics a reality so that's why he could be pushed around so easily by interest groups in the party or you know particularly the right of the party it's why he always seemed so insecure around the right wing media because that's where he was trying to get his validation because he didn't have another idea of how to another pathway to power another route to power another model of building power so if that is the truth that you know Rachel Reeves is sort of another is an Ed Miliband type it doesn't bode well because it suggests the same problem which is okay your personal politics might be okay but you don't have any vision or creativity or astute analysis of how we're going to make that politics into a reality so you just rely on triangulation but I also think that you know I also don't think it's the case because if you look at the spirit of the reshuffle it's being done in a way that doesn't allow any breathing space for any remotely you know labor movement or you know progressive part of the party you know that's what you do that's what you're doing when you're trying to purge the party of anyone with any connection to the labor movement that's what you're doing when you're sacking Angela Rainer you know the part as I said before this is part of the party being handed over to a tiny minority of the plp who you know haven't actually won much on their own merit in a very long time and so when you look at that broader context of the reshuffle and the broader spirit the broader purpose of it that doesn't really contribute to this idea that Rachel Reeves is like a secret lefty or has come on some kind of journey and you know I think that this idea of oh I didn't express myself well enough you express yourself in pretty clear terms like it looks like when you look at that interview it's not oh I was caught off guard and I sort of didn't know what to say it's I went into this into this interview with the the clear intention that the labor party is to the right of the conservative party on the economy that the labor party is not the party of those who have been left behind or left out of the economy so I don't think that that doesn't really really wash with me I think even if I were to give her the benefit of the doubt it shows a repeating of the mistakes that we saw under Ed Miliband and under Gordon Brown which didn't lead to a victory um and if it's but if it isn't the case that it is that she is you know secretly very different now then it matches everything else that we think this this reshuffle represents yeah I mean to be my personal take is that I think that the argument that you know she said it under the leadership of Ed Miliband should be taken seriously but at the same time both their histories before 2010 and after 2015 are very very different so you know Rachel Reeves was quite proactively anti corbin resigned from the front bench Ed Miliband was much more you know soft on it he was often you know almost soft outriding in the media obviously he backed the coup whatever but in terms of the policy platform he was really for it whereas Rachel Reeves was basically you know didn't want anything to do with it she was waiting until that was all over so she could um take the party to the right again and I think that's that's tradition she comes from um as well um I want to talk about alternative power bases in the party who could challenge Kier if and when the time comes um and I know that Clive's saying we shouldn't we shouldn't obsess about individuals but to be honest my position here is that the Labour Party has a constitution the only way to challenge someone was with an alternative candidate so whilst it might be you know whilst we might want a different world we're in one way you need a candidate um to that end I'm going to show you the current bookie's favourite speaking today this is Andy Burnham Labour's got to stop uh this sort of internal focus you know the civil war between those on the left of the party those on the right of the party it's just from my point of view that that's absolutely pointless and destructive you know we have got a fantastic vision here in Greater Manchester this is Labour in power showing what we can do buses under public control these are Labour policies isn't it about time the party starts celebrating those things it's it's Labour mayors we've got a new woman mayor in uh West Yorkshire Tracy Braben Steve Rotherham re-elected uh eight Labour mayors elected at the weekend but also across the country there are now 10 I mean this is a really positive story Labour's been way too lukewarm about English devolution uh so far and it now enthusiastically needs to get behind it so the party this morning the shadow cabinet everybody needs to listen to what the public were saying at the weekend they say they are saying they like devolution here they want more of it and the party now needs to listen to that and show that it understands that was Andy Burnham sort of putting forward a positive vision of Labour backing devolution also interesting there he said um honor this was in a separate clip actually this was on the world at one he said Labour should have emphasised higher pay for carers in their campaign which is reported to have been what Rainer wanted to be pushed but wasn't obviously she was campaign coordinator or whatever but didn't have absolute control over it um Clive I want your take here because you know thinking about what are the potential challenges to Keir Starmer for me the obvious route seems to be some sort of northwest axis Andy Burnham Angela Rainer people around there who've been very successful the Preston councillors then tied with some soft left and left-wing figures in the Labour Party such as yourself for example so can you see those sort of coalitions being formed not necessarily as sort of records to try and you know spoil the Keir Starmer leadership but forming a new alternative coalition that could potentially take control in parliament and and provide a an alternative if if the time did come when there were a leadership challenge I mean it's not beyond the realm of possibility and obviously the success and the success story up in Manchester Greater Manchester is something that people are looking at they're rather a rather success always around the country but that's the highest profile the biggest and therefore that's naturally going to attract you know that out of tension from members and the movement who look to what who look you know I think probably this weekend in despair what's happening and then look where there's a sense of hope and you can see that there um I would argue a few things one I think if Labour is going to talk about the evolution it has to be far more radical than that I think we need to talk about because for me the evolution is about the centre doling out power and I think what we need to see in this country is probably something more long lines of poor sovereignty so you know look Scotland did in a place where it's either going to leave the the polity of the United Kingdom or it's going to be trying to for the foreseeable future that has that has kind of obvious problems for the Labour Party which is considered a unionist party and that also makes it more difficult for us to to win power which means that the the big fight is in England and that's always going to be trouble troublesome for us when you look at the demographics and you look at the mythology of of English parliamentary seats and you know again I would say it doesn't make a difference policies leaders make a big difference but I think when you look at the demographics and you look at the mythology and you look at what's happening with the balkanization of the UK I think you begin to see that it is going to be very difficult for us as the Labour Party on our own getting into power with a reasonable majority to be able to enact transformative change over a period of time and you know what I think about this I think actually if we want to be able to do this we have to change the electoral system we have to completely change our constitution change democracy but then we knew it and that means giving sovereignty to the regions giving sovereignty to Scotland and if you want to I think England would be better broken up into a series of sovereign regions that were kind of you want a federal structure possibly but it needs to be pulled sovereignty of which Scotland will be part of that's my personal preference ultimately devolution still means a Westminster centric highly centralized government that dulls out power I think we can be bigger and bolder than that I think we have to given the balkanization of the United Kingdom has taken place so you know look I know you want me to talk about Andy let's see what happens two years is the wrong way lots have happened in that two years it's possible that's that's possible that is an outcome but are we really suggesting that for the next two years we're going to look for the king of the north to come down and take control and sort things out and make our lives better I'm I'm slightly pessimistic about that but you know I'm open to it and do I think you could do a better job possibly than Keir Starmer I'm not going to make any other comment than that but you know he's up there we're down there and he's just got another four four years as mayor of Greater Manchester so it is academic you know it's possible it's hypothetically it would be a nice to have possibly but it's speculation isn't it we've got we've got our headline Clive Lewis Andy Burnham could possibly be a better leader than Keir Starmer I've got a challenge for you for you Clive from Sao with a fiver Clive Labour member here I want the socialist campaign group to step up and start offering real opposition to the current leadership so far you're not and it's not good enough what do you say to Saul I think the campaign group has obviously I think you have to acknowledge that the campaign group after losing the leadership and it was a pretty kind of spectacular kind of implosion that took place because the SCG split on the issues of Brexit there were arguments over a number of areas the SCG is a homogeneous whole there are different parts of it and I think it's going to take time for that to be able to get back on to its feet and to get back and do and to and to work effectively I'm not saying it she can't do better I think it should but I don't think it's necessarily the case that we should expect it to be up and running and back on its feet within a year I know people would like to see that but it's tough frankly and there are a variety of views and ideas about how you proceed on the SCG and not everyone's in agreement but I understand that frustration completely I wish I had a better answer for you I don't maybe I mean I think I'm speaking at the socialist campaign group rally this week I think we're gonna start upping our game moving on from rallies talking into zoom and maybe actually organizing you know look they're going to be a series of selections I you know I think you know we should be working with trade unions and other groups to be able to start thinking about how do we start winning some of those selections could be selections go the way of the right then you know ultimately all of the new people coming in in the foreseeable set of elections in 2023 2024 will not be amenable to the kind of politics that I think the kind of Labour Party that I want to see so we have to really get our act together on that and I think that's something where we can I just simply don't think that standing up and slamming the leadership day in day out is necessarily it might feel gratifying I don't necessarily think that's the only way that you can fight back there are other ways you can fight back by organizing and making sure that there are structural things put in place which actually mean in the longer run the left is stronger and in a better position that can be anything from organizing for the NEC elections through to selections but I think that's where energies need to go rather than simply just looking like puffing your chest out and looking like you're holding here to account you know that's part of it but actually some of it is about organizational elements and that hasn't been as strong as it could be and I would agree with that thank you so much for joining us this evening we're going to let you go but it is always an absolute pleasure to have you on the show thank you very much I'd love you to be here take care cheers let's go to a couple more comments snarl marks tweets on the hashtag tiskey sour big thanks to tiskey sour for carrying us all through this four-day election bender also looking unreal today darling a drop the skincare routine um it's way too embarrassing it's like a million tiny bottles of very expensive creams I'm going to go to a couple more comments in a moment first of all I need to tell you if you are new to this show if you have not already done it do hit that subscribe button we've been doing great over the last couple of weeks in terms of increasing our subscriber base it really um I mean it's not only gratifying it's what means that our media can grow so we really want you to hit that subscribe button and especially hit that notification button so you know when we go live we've got 4 000 people watching at the moment which is really really great to see Judith Kelly with a fiver if Corbyn had made a leadership bid now rather than 2015 in a post covid recovery would the socialist ideas be more acceptable to the electorate maybe but that hypotheticals I mean that's too it's I've been doing this show for four days it's too much for me to imagine a world where in 2015 Corbyn didn't stand and now is there's there's too many possibilities there I'm sorry it's it's exploded my my mental synapses is that the word they're all they're melting under that under that scenario um Teresa Easton with a fiver great analysis as usual folks but don't forget our north of time mayor Jamie Driscoll a great example of the labour left a good point actually I like Jamie Driscoll we should um I should follow a bit more what's going on over there um Tim Allen with 499 David Evans has not been ratified by conference he needs to be removed ASAP or the demise of Stalmore will make no difference um with the I mean general secretaries are never ratified by conference um as far as I understand um they're appointed by the NEC if if Kier Stalmore were to go then and he got replaced by someone from a different faction at the party it would potentially be possible to remove David Evans but it's hard to remove them without removing the the leader unless you know a majority on the NEC sort of falls out with him um Alfie Roscoe with a five a big upclive from a keen Norwich constituent and Oliver Kant says leaders lead not follow an important point there for Kier Stalmore to remember let's go quickly to a brief COVID update because we had two very good bits of news today on the COVID front so the first is that for the first time since last March that's over a year ago there was zero zero daily COVID deaths recorded in England in the past 24 hours which is amazing um really really good news there the second is that England's unlocking is on track Boris Johnson today gave a press conference confirming the changes to COVID regulations that will come into place next Monday with deaths and hospitalizations at their lowest level since last July and the UK's four chief medical officers today agreeing a reduction in the alert level the data now support moving to step three in England from next Monday the 17th of May this means the rule of six or two households that has applied outdoors will now apply indoors and the limit for outdoor meetings will increase to 30 from next Monday you'll be able to sit inside a pub and inside a restaurant you'll be able to go to the cinema and children will be able to use indoor play areas so this is great news the the chief scientific officers feel confident that this is able to happen obviously the things that are now being announced the indoor dining going inside in a pub all of this stuff is allowed so each time they unlock it gets more and more risky but opening up indoor areas is a fairly risky thing to do in terms of virus transmission the reason it's not particularly worrying for them to the reason they feel comfortable doing it at this point is that so many people are vaccinated and there is so little COVID out and about so I mean I'm just really pleased about this Dalia what do you make of this basically from next Monday we're going to go back to something that looks a hell of a lot more like normality yeah I mean I think it's obviously exciting I think it's I'm I'm still feeling tentative about it you know someone who's not been vaccinated yet I don't think I'll be doing indoor dining quite yet and I do think that the I do think that one thing that is always at the back of my mind and this is not to kind of be a damper or anything at all but one thing that is at the back of my mind is just the unpredictability of this virus you know when we look at particularly if I look at you know my my home country where a lot of my family live in Egypt where we had you know last summer we you know we basically not had that many cases especially over the summer and many people thought that it was because you know of the heat that you know people aren't necessarily having to be inside or something about the heat you know kills the virus etc and now we are seeing for no explicit reason really a massive uptick in cases but obviously you know the fact that so many people have been vaccinated in this country means that we are on the pathway to a really good like a really really good summer I think for me personally I still feel a little bit uncomfortable about indoor dining but once I'm vaccinated I will be in all of your homes partying and and wearing my everyone's like commenting on my outfit it's like I'm just trying to like will summer into into existence because this weather is is driving me crazy but yeah I mean I think it looks really really good for so many of us and again it's a testament to the NHS running things rather than shitty outsourced private companies it's the only thing in the government's COVID response that has gone well it's the thing that they're taking a lot of credit for but it is the work of the NHS and of the organisational impacts of having a an infrastructure that is not run for profit but is actually run for you know to achieve its objective which is to care for the health of the population and also through that kind of centralised organising infrastructure and we really should and this is again what I say when you know what the role of a Labour Party should be is to narrativise this in a way that demonstrates that the the way that we look at the world the way that the Tories look at the world is fundamentally damaging and that the successes of the pandemic are not Boris Johnson's but they belong to the NHS which the Conservatives are constantly trying to undermine and so missing that opportunity is again an example of that lack of vision that lack of creativity that lack of judgments because there is a way that even though this looks like a Tory win there is a way that this can be understood for what it is which is a victory of the NHS. A victory for us all in the sense that we can now finally go out and if it rains we don't have to cancel our plans which is you know I'm hyped about even though I do I do take your point when when gyms were allowed to reopen I was thinking I'm going to wait for my vaccine now I'm still waiting for my vaccine but I feel like I probably will have a drink inside after next Monday but each each I think the whole point is yeah everyone everyone should assess their own risk at this point in time I think going slowly is is the way let's go to another comment Cheyenne tweets on the hashtag Tiskey Sour Starmer could only ever be wounded by what's gone down but the Labour left must note that unless it knocks him out it will count for nothing and he will happily keep leading the party on the endless walk of the undead very um poetically put is that the right way to put it I'm even a bit morbid but it I suppose the issue there is how do the Labour left knock him out you know we have to live in the realms of what are the actual options that people have I think there are many people on the left who would love to knock Keir Starmer out easier said than done you know I think at this point if well what would happen if if you know Richard Bergen or whatever launched a leadership challenge which is why he's not going to is that one he wouldn't get on the baller and two if he did I think there's every chance Keir Starmer would would win because there are many people the most recent polling we haven't got polling since this this last election but the most recent polling of Labour members they still overwhelmingly want to give Keir Starmer a chance right you know it's it's not unreasonable as well you know the idea if someone's been elected to that position they should get a chance so I do think that whilst yeah I mean I'd love it if he could be toppled tomorrow I don't see a route to it which is why I think probably you know coalition building making sure that when the time comes the left are in a position to make a real challenge that for me seems to be the most plausible option for for struggle within the Labour Party obviously there's loads of activism that people can be doing in any any sphere of society but when it comes to Labour that seems to be the option to me or the options to me thank you for your super chats this evening as ever what makes this show possible in particular is your regular support if you are a regular donor thank you so much you make this all possible if not please do go to nevermedia.com slash support and an equivalent of one hour's wage a month we're going to go on to our final story now Israeli police raided the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem this morning enduring hundreds of worshipers now of those injured according to the Palestinian Red Crescent at least seven are in a critical condition many more are in are in hospital now the raid took place at 8 a.m. this morning and a spot widespread outcry because of the significance of the mosque which is considered the third holiest site in Islam footage of the raid has been widely shared on social media with police using stun grenades and rubber covered metal bullets to clear worshipers from the site this is the third night that Israeli police and soldiers have attacked people praying there so why is this happening now well the raids this morning were thought to be an attempt by Israeli authorities to clear the holy site before a march by right-wing Zionists that was due to take place today and that was the annual Jerusalem day march it marks the date that Israel began its illegal capture and occupation of East Jerusalem following the 1967 war as far as I understand in the end and that didn't go forward today the raid also takes place off the back of days of protests against the eviction of Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah a neighborhood in East Jerusalem their Palestinians are being expelled from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers it's a practice which has been ongoing in the city for decades um when it comes to to that particular dispute or that eviction there was another video which has gone really really viral recently which is an interaction which really shows the power dynamics at play in those in those evictions Jacob you know this is not your house yes but if I go you don't go back so what's the problem why are you yelling at me I didn't do this I didn't do this but it's easy to yell at me but I didn't do this you are stealing my house and if I don't steal it someone else is going to steal it no no one no one is allowed to steal it yeah I mean really really appalling which is why you know that traveled far because of you know just how outrageous that was and there is one more outrage currently ongoing in Jerusalem which frames the storming of of al-Aqsa this is the al-Aqsa mosque and this is the ongoing violent attempts by Israeli police to stop Palestinians gathering at the city's Damascus gates during Ramadan now this sky reports this sky report gives an idea of the context there these steps are steps which Palestinians who live in this part of east Jerusalem gather in for Ramadan when their fast comes to an end each evening they gather on these steps and what we have seen tonight has been the same for the past few nights for no logical reason the Israeli police are moving in and in a very blunt way controlling as they say the crowd a crowd which doesn't as far as we've seen need any control these are families yep lots of young people as well young boys here too who are at the end of their Ramadan fast are gathering here we've seen over the course of the evening water cannon filled with a rancid skunk as it's known is um is sprayed at people sprayed a little bit earlier on at young boys who were gathered up at the wall here so really again rancid water being sprayed at people who were just gathering after praying you know it's it's horrible to watch um to discuss the raid on the al-Aqsa mosque and the repression at the Damascus gates i spoke earlier to akram salhab a Palestinian from Jerusalem who is currently based there and this is part of the Israeli's uh broader policy of attempting to change the the character of Jerusalem and indeed to change your character of the country as a whole um Israeli settler colonial policies since Israel's inception have been designed to get the maximum amount of land with a minimum number of Palestinians on that land as with all settler colonial projects that take place takes place in a variety of ways and what we've seen in Jerusalem is an attempt to change over time the demographic makeup of the city and the important background to this is that you know we'll talk about different kinds of policies land confiscation the house demolitions um the discriminatory planning the revocation of Palestinian um residency rights in Jerusalem but what happens around Ramadan and Easter which has just been orthodox Easter here in Jerusalem is that the Israeli state despite all of the um what it's been doing over the past um years in Jerusalem cannot change the fact that when it comes to Ramadan or when it comes to Easter it's very clearly a Palestinian Arab city um all of the streets are filled with Palestinians all the shops are open Palestinian music Arab music Arabic music is playing and Palestinians out in huge numbers throughout the city and it's very clear that we have a presence in this city and despite everything they've attempted to do we're still here and we're still standing up for our rights and we still have our claims to sovereignty and what um and this is what this is what Israel cannot stand and so everything that's brought us up to this point has been an attempt to them by the Israeli authorities to destroy any Palestinian public presence in the city firstly by putting barriers at Damascus gate so Palestinians would often after Iftar would go and sit at Damascus gate and have shisha pipes or hang out or dance or just spend time there and will wander up Salah Dean Street which is where um many Palestinian businesses and shops are located the Israelis put barriers at Damascus gate which prevented people from sitting there and that was the first that's what began the and in Palestinians rejecting that was what began the first confrontations that happened during Ramadan the Israeli authorities also attacked Palestinian Christians going into the church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem they wouldn't allow them in and they were beating families children and others trying to get into prey on Orthodox Easter and on Orthodox Easter Palestinian Christians are different branches of Christianity which are represented in it walk up and down with scout groups in the old city filling it with music and sound and an obvious presence of Palestinians being there and this again is not something the Israelis are willing to um sit by and and let happen so as well as I claim to sovereignty and as well as a forcible transfer of people they want to make sure that Palestinians feel cowed feel marginalized and don't feel they can assert themselves or have or have any presence at all um in the city you described very effectively there how what we're witnessing now fits into a logic of settler colonialism I mean in terms of recent history are we seeing is what we're seeing now the norm and it's just that the international media attention is is more on it or is there something exceptional about what what's going on now and if the latter why are we seeing this ramping up of repression um well I think actually what's happened over the past few weeks has to be interpreted as something very positive because everything that I have described is happening in Jerusalem every single day every single week every single month of every single year since Israel began its occupation of the city and it changes in um speed or direction but it continues in one inexorable towards one inexorable aim which is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the city so it's much better that we have moments where Palestinians are resisting that rather than that happen in silence you know with the international community quote on quote having their attention elsewhere and the Palestinian resistance to that is cowed by arrests by um other repressive measures in the city so it's much better um the what we're able the Palestinians in the city are able to confront this and what's happened over the past few days now the past few weeks is that we've seen the entire city rise up in the most extraordinary way if you walk down the streets you see every single street corner police and soldiers but young men standing defiantly standing their ground you see um people singing in the streets you see people doing depth care at the entrances to the old city the other day the Israelis attempted to prevent Palestinians from inside um Palestine 1948 Palestine from coming to pray at during ladies and gentlemen which is the most holy night of Ramadan which is a few evenings ago the Israelis prevented them from coming they they got off to their buses and they started walking towards Jerusalem and Palestinians from the um from Jerusalem went to collect them in their cars and bring them here you've seen this enormous explosion the civic spirit across the city with people from all walks of life out in force and saying that we have a right to be here and saying that we whatever happens we're going to fight for that uh for our right because the alternative is a complete expulsion and ethnic cleansing and ending of our way of life in this city so actually what we've seen is an incredibly positive response to something that's continued in different ways and through different means by the Israelis throughout the entirety of their occupation and indeed to all Palestinian areas since um it's its inception in 1948 so um I think we have to definitely regard this as an incredibly positive thing and I don't think it represents an escalation by the Israelis whatsoever it's just a continuation of the same policy sometimes around picking things up sometimes slowing them down as they see their opportunities in international arena develop and change that was Akram Salhab speaking to me from Jerusalem I also spoke today to Munna Djajani who is currently based in London but who has family at risk of eviction in Sheikh Jura so that's the community I'm always talking about before who are at risk of being evicted by by Jewish settlers now the community of Sheikh Jura is largely made up of families who were resettled in Jerusalem by the UN and the Jordanian government in 1956 after having been expelled from the city during the Nakba in 1948 there are now hundreds of Palestinian families living in Sheikh Jura um when I spoke to Munna I'm sure we're going by explaining to me and the historical context which explains why those homes are now under threat 1967 the Six Day War happened again Israel occupied the rest of Palestine and today Palestinians there Palestinian Jerusalem might found them found themselves mere residents of a city that they belong to and being a mere residence means that you don't have citizenship rights you're under military occupation but you are confronted with a new lexicon and a new way of living in the place and what happened a few years after the Six Day War is that the residents of Sheikh Zagrah the this compound we talk about they started receiving lawsuits filed against them by settler organizations claiming that this land is is theirs is the ownership of the settler organization and that the Palestinian families are there unlawfully and of course the first all the Palestinian residents of Sheikh Zagrah are rightful owners of of their houses I remember being a child hearing about the looming threat of evictions from the 1980s we've been hearing about about these lawsuits against us but always with the hope that we shall prevail because our evidence is very clear that we belong to this land we belong to Sheikh Zagrah and we have all the evidence to show that the Israeli court system has always dismissed our evidence and and taken the side of the Israeli settlers although their evidence has never has been nullified it has been really shown to be forged Sheikh Zagrah connects different Palestinian communities and neighborhoods of East Jerusalem it is kind of our our like anchor our heart the heart of the city of Jerusalem so the fact that we are today witnessing a court decision that has that has been decided to to evict us from our house is totally totally illegal decision and we're trying all our best to to confront its contested whether whether through through these courts being on the ground and seeing how the Jerusalem residents have been protecting the city in all their might whatever they can do being being there being present and making a point reaching out on social media that was Muna Djajani speaking about the evictions in Sheikh Zagrah and Dalia I want to go to you quickly for your for your thoughts on what we've just heard in that section yeah I think I mean this is the cash this is this is the problem isn't it with this stigmatization of anyone in public life who cares about internationalism and I think that you know especially looking at the show that we've had today and sort of finishing with these scenes and finishing with you know what Akram and and Muna were just saying and and you know after we've just talked about you know how with this labor party stuff how it feels like we as sort of young precarious people are getting so aggressively pushed out of political decision-making and so pushed out of power when you hear about the resistances in Sheikh Zagrah to these kinds of to these evictions and that long history of of fighting back it makes me think that we just don't have an option but to have hope and and to resist you know if the the residents of Sheikh Zagrah can fight in the face of literal dispossession you know dispossession that has the backing of local courts of local army of the state then then we have to you know hope is not a a feeling it's not an emotion and we can't rely on hope only when we feel it it's a virtue and it's a duty to which we are which we are bound and I think as well you know the reason that these kinds of moments hold such significance for so many people is because it represents in such explicit terms a phenomenon that is true for so many oppressed people around the world it demonstrates how you know through bureaucratic means through cultural means through economic militaristic geographic techniques you know as Akram outlined entire communities can be stripped of their personhood and they can be subjected to the sharpest edges of violence of state violence um and you know what what we see through things like the clearing of public space from markers of Arab culture or Palestinian culture the denying of planning permissions to um Palestinian residents and then turning around and saying well you know you're here illegally so we can evict you it's it's so this is you know one of many of the many clarifying lenses through which we can understand how entire communities are dehumanized and are stripped of their personhood and then all manners of violence against them can be justified but it's also close to the hearts of so many people because of the insistence on living in the face of that um on the insistence on hoping and creating um in the face of that kind of struggle so it's the story of so many self-determination struggles around the world it's the story of communities that insist on their own humanity in the face of dehumanization in the face of their humanity being stripped away and that is why I think it's so important to focus on the fact that um there is a poetic and there is an ethic of of hope in the face of that and so we we don't have a choice um especially here in the UK to abdicate um on our responsibility of of protecting those who are the most marginalized from political life. Really really important points and I mean I've already a really appropriate way to end the show. Dahlia, Gabrielle, thank you so much for for joining me on this Monday evening. Thank you for having me and thank you all for watching for all your comments and all your kind donations. We'll be back on Wednesday and in fact if you stay tuned when this stream finishes you'll be redirected straight to the YouTube page for Wednesday's show. Once you're there you can set a reminder so you've got no excuses for missing it. For now, you've been watching Tiskey Sour on Navarra Media. Good night.