 Mae'r ddysgu cyfrannu ac CRISP ac ydych chi'n rai'n ddysgu ein ddifonol yw Ydyn ni'n bod yn gweithio. Mae'n ddifonol gyda'r modau o'r ydych chi, mae'r hanes Rachell Kythau. Mae'n pethau o'r pethau i'r meddwl i'r Ydyn ni o'r Ysgol Blaenau'r Oxford Ysgol. Mae'r pethau o'r pethau o'r ysgol yw i'r unrhyw lle, i ni yn oed yn rhan o'r cyfrannu, a go ahead and give this conversation going. Then we will have an extraordinary panel discussion with companies that have really turned a coalition that has had a real ambition into a coalition which is actually acting and making a real difference. But from one of the great inspirations of this first mover coalition, please, John, the floor is yours. Thank you for your terrific stewardship in many respects and helping to guide us all of this, and thank you to the first movers who are here and those of you representing some of the first movers. I'm beginning every session that I engage in here by just trying to clarify something. There's a few questions out there. I am not retiring, folks. I want to make that clear. I am shifting my efforts to where I think they could be best used in an election year in the United States and facing the fact that the Congress is not going to, obviously, grab this by the baton the way you all are and the way we need. This is so critical, first of all. You're all experts. There's nobody here who needs to be set up fully educated, but sometimes we all need to be reminded that we are dangerously close to the precipice of tipping points that we've been warned about on climate chaos that comes about because, as we know this past year, is by far the most turbulent in every country. There is every single respect. Heat, warming, the deforestation of those emissions, the amount of subsidies going to the very people that are creating the problems. You run the list and it really is a challenge. But, here's the but. You should feel good about the road we have traveled in a year or two years. When we stood up in Glasgow and we announced this First Movers Coalition, we had maybe 20-some companies or something. And we are now over a hundred and growing. And the question is, will we, as part of the mission, which is not just putting in orders for green products or creating partnerships within the framework of the FNC itself, but will we make the decisions globally and push a whole bunch more folks to join up and to be part of this effort? Because our problem is not that we don't know what to do. It's not that we don't, in fact, have, you know, certain solutions staring us in the face. Some of them are being implemented and deployed right now. It's that we're not doing any of what we need to do big enough and fast enough. And it is a challenge, major crisis with respect to our ability to be able to win this battle. Now, money. Money is critical to our ability to be able to do that. And, kudos. I mean, I cannot thank enough the CEOs of First Movers Coalition companies who made the decisions that they're going to be leaders. That they're going to take their companies and do something that takes a little bit of explanation to your, you know, if you're publicly held to your shareholders. And if you don't have to explain to them privately even, the people in families and otherwise who sometimes challenge the decision to spend a little more than you have to to change your bottom line. But it is only by making that decision that we're going to be in a place where we get to accelerate this transition fast enough. Now, we've tried to do our part. The reason, one of the reasons why I am comfortable saying I'm not going to lead our team into the next cop is because I believe we had an historic cop in Dubai. I believe that the fact that we got 195 nations to sign off on language that says we will transition away from fossil fuels is historic. And it's not a freestanding sentence. It's a sentence that is modified by the phrase, in keeping with the science, which means 1.5 degrees is our north star and we have to keep pushing in that direction. It also says accelerating in this decade and it also says in keeping with net zero by 2050, which means you have to meet a certain curve of reduction and be transparent and accountable in the public sector. So this is a major step forward. It's accompanied by other steps. It's accompanied by the fact that for the first time at a cop there was a major devoted day to methane. And China and the United States held a joint conference in which China has already now put out its national plan, which we worked on two years ago and we originally agreed to announce in Glasgow. And we all agreed that all greenhouse gases will now be part of the NDCs. Imagine that in the year 2023, methane wasn't even included in the NDCs of a whole host of countries. And if you add to what I just said, adaptation initiative and the way in which we're now going to move with respect to loss and damage where we created something that a lot of people thought was a showstopper, a cop killer, and something that was going to prevent us from ever getting progress. Well, guess what? We worked all summer, all through a series of meetings, five of them in the end, in order to be able to try to set ourselves up to get that done on the first day. So it didn't become a destructive and counter-forced everything else we needed to do. We won that battle. So we are now poised, folks, to really take this idea of a first mover coalition and run with it. And you saw in that video all the things that are able to be done now. So we are, I think, in the midst of one of the most powerful examples of what we can do on the demand side to be able to affect the marketplace. And the fact is that what we've accomplished is really amazing. We've amassed over 110 out of about 100 members, 110 specific purchasing agreements from almost 100 companies. We have taken together all of this effort by the FMC represents about $16 billion of commitments that are being made. It's the largest private demand signal for clean technologies in history. And we're already seeing this demand as creating catalytic consequences within the other technologies. And when you pair the necessary policy work that we've been doing on the supply side, the IRA, for instance, you have a combination that can change the marketplace much more rapidly than it would be otherwise. So what I'm really excited about is this entity, the FMC, is doing the innovative work in order to meet their 2030 purchasing agreements. It's happening. And the commitments that first may work companies have made are obviously fundamentally challenging. But they are commitments that will change the way that we procure our most basic goods, steel, aluminum, concrete, jet fuel, shipping, shipping industry. Together with the IMO that changed its rules this year and the shipping industry, Yara, thank you, Marysg, thank you, MSC, thank you, you stepped up. And now I am told that the entire shipping fleet will probably be turned over in the course of about 20 years to no carbon, zero carbon, low carbon sourcing. That's incredible when you think about where we were only two years ago. So this is a great example of the way in which the marketplace can act responsibly. It's truly the upside, best side if you will, of capitalism which brags that it has the ability to be able to allocate capital more effectively than any other methodology. Well, this is proof really in the pudding that you can be responsible in ways way beyond what the normal marketplace is willing to accept. There are almost 100 off-take agreements different from the commitments that are made with innovative suppliers and they are moving voluntary pledges to real, bankable contracts. These off-take agreements represent a coming together of governments, suppliers, buyers, financiers, and they do something very complicated and difficult, but they're doing it. And it's going to have an impact on the market. My bottom line is this. I am convinced now because of what is happening in the marketplace. Smart CEOs of the biggest companies in the world, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Salesforce, FedEx, Boeing, Ford, Mercedes, that's what I mean, automobile dealers, all through the food chain. We are seeing CEOs make the decision that they're committing their companies to maybe pay a little bit of a green premium, but in the end create a supply chain that is going to provide everybody the ability to be able to join up and enjoy the benefits here. So you're going to hear from a handful of our members today about how they are driving transformation through FMC commitments. It's absolutely critical that we accelerate. I am convinced beyond any doubt that because of the decisions being made in the marketplace now, you know as well as I do. Even if, you know, I don't want this obviously, but if you wound up with a different president who was opposed to climate crisis, I got news here. No one politician anywhere in the world can undo what is happening now. The marketplace is doing this. And the only issue for all of us is not whether or not we can get or will get to a low-carbon, low-carbon economy globally, we will. The only question is will we get there in time to meet the challenge of the scientists in order to avoid the worst consequences of this crisis? That is what is at stake. So I really look forward to hearing from our folks today who are going to lay out to everybody here the ways in which all can participate in this transformation. It's the biggest transformation in the economies of the world in all of human history. It's also the greatest business set of opportunities that we've ever known in all of human history. And smart people are seeing that opportunity and I think it's going to be the job creator and the energizer of our economies that are going to really transform the world over the course of these next months and years. So with that, please, let's get the panel and learn what everybody is up to. Thank you. Thank you. Excuse me, we need one more chair. Thank you very much Special Envoy Kerry-John, if I may, and thank you for just shifting role a little bit. We continue to need your vision and enthusiasm. So first move of coalition a couple of years ago in Glasgow started small and is now sending this extraordinary demand signal across all kinds of value chains in what used to be called hard to abate sectors. And so first of all, I'd like to go to one of the early government members of the first move of coalition to minister Tan Siling, second minister for trade industry. Singapore sits at the hub of global shipping of logistics, transportation, et cetera. We're going to hear from CEOs who are doing extraordinary work along their value chains. What more could, on the public side, on the government side, what more could governments do to respond now to the demand signal that we're beginning to create across the economy? Thank you. First and foremost, a very good morning to all of you. I always enjoy listening to special adviser, John's remarks and that sense of optimism that really sort of gives us the kind of gusto to move forward. I think that for us we were very, very excited with the FMC and the movements moving forward. We believe that fundamentally government is really and can really perform the role of a catalyst and an enabler for many of these initiatives and driving systems that you're going to start. And really in terms of the development of low carbon technologies and markets and how we can actually achieve partnership with the industry and also to see how we can enable and also channel market demand into areas where it's needed most. So, as I've said earlier on, beyond the catalyst, the government has to play the role of an enabler. So, one of the key things that we have done, and perhaps if we could share with you some of our experiences at the end of last year, we did an end-to-end RFP for ammonia, the development of low carbon ammonia solutions. And what we did was that the expressions of interest concluded in October and we will be issuing a close RFP, a request for a proposal to six short listed consortiums. And this, when it's done, we will be announcing something towards the end of this month. It would move Singapore another step closer to being one of the first countries in the world to test and to deploy a direct ammonia combustion power plant and to support the holistic assessment of ammonia bunkering for shipping. So, we are also working with multiple other ammonia suppliers, shipping lines, storage providers, technology providers and also bunker suppliers to ensure that we are able to scale up the required infrastructure to support and to cater for ammonia bunkering for both ocean-going ships and domestic harbour crafts. And obviously, we are developing procedures, standards and regulations for safe bunkering of ammonia. Now, for aviation, we set up an international centre for aviation innovation or ICAI just last week to facilitate the development and the adoption of technologies for the aviation sector, which focuses primarily on the Asia-Pacific region. So, we'll partner governments, industry, we'll partner our eyes to research institutes to undertake R&D projects in several new key areas, for instance, sustainable aviation, developing new concepts to minimise carbon footprint through optimising operations. So, we are also working with our partners, the US, Japan, to see how we can develop and implement aviation green lanes throughout the whole of Asia-Pacific. And this would then provide a pathway for accelerated emissions reductions through fostering value chain collaboration, ensuring credibility and also providing predictability and transparency to consumers. So, FMC, with your focus on private sector resource mobilisation, can work with us and with multiple governments, like-minded governments in developing low-carbon value chains and testbed solutions. And some of the government platforms in Singapore, for instance, like our MPA, which is the Maritime Port Authority Screen and Digital Shipping Corridors, they are root-based action plans. It can help to bring together a network of maritime and energy value chain stakeholders to exchange information to catalyse pilot trials and establish a supply chain of zero or near zero greenhouse gas emissions. Thank you. Thank you, thank you very much. So, we're going to go to rapid fire CEO segment of this panel now. And Hashimoto-san from Mitsui Oskai, it's really wonderful to be here. And I have to say that every now and again at Davos, you get a sort of a sign of how quickly things are moving. I think the shipping sector really over the last few years has moved very fast. So, we saw one of your incredible new prototype ships on the video at the beginning. You've been involved in advanced market commitments on carbon removals. You're involved in other innovations in the fuel stock as well. What do you need in order to see this transformation go even faster around the world? Thank you. Thank you, Rachel. Yes, since we joined the other FMC two years ago, we expanded so many activities and tried to accelerate the low-carbon and zero-carbon transportation of the shipping business. The complication is that the general shipping company, we are covering so many different kinds of shipping businesses. There are containers and bulkers and tankers and gas carriers, the ferry and the cruise businesses. And each segment has different requirements and natures. Then it became quite clear that there is no single solution to achieve the net zero. We definitely need to establish a combination of the different kinds of procedures to reduce our emissions for the time being. And in the long term, we definitely need to net zero. So that ammonia, LNG, methanol, hydrogen, battery, we couldn't delete any options because of the very wide variety of the 800, 900 vessels all over the world that they need a different solution. And we are trying to work with quite many industrial players, shipyards, engineering companies, large customers and charters, and also the quite important issue for us is the dialogue with the government and international entities. So we need to establish technical achievement, commercial achievement, and also the kind of the political framework. It's quite the gigantic effort we need. We already started and when we started it, we did not expect such a very big one. But the more and more that it became very clear that we cannot do it alone, we definitely need to set up a quite strong team that work together to achieve the various different targets in the 90s, sorry, 2020s and 30s and 40s. So for us that being the member of FMC is quite important to the milestone and we really want to accelerate our efforts to do the necessary actions. And also to try to organise quite many team members in a shipping sector to materialise our target. So it's really fascinating to see in this coalition of first movers, every aspect of the value chain being squeezed across the membership. So from switching out the fuel in the ports through to the composition of the actual vessels themselves to the fuel that the vessels are using, we start to see this. So now I think maybe come to you Dan, Dan Fisher, CEO of the Ball Corporation. So in all of those value chains the issues of recycling become very important. You're leading in the aluminium sector or aluminium as I used to say when I came up. I say that when I'm in London. So what's interesting is that you're using your advanced purchasing to sort of like pull things forward. So talk a little bit about the approach that you're taking and how you see the value chain relationships panning out. I think we're blessed within the FMC to have our largest customers and our largest suppliers. So we've got a common framework and a common language and a common goal. Aluminum is a lot simpler maybe than some of my panellists and the more recycled content and the green energies that used to fuel that, you can get to carbon neutral in a very pragmatic and efficient manner. And I think the special envoy Kerry made a comment and I think was the real challenge is always sitting in front of a board for public traded board. We're 15 billion dollars in revenue. We're a billion dollars of free cash flow signing a multi billion dollar off take agreement. That's that sort of betting that good will equal well for your shareholders over time. And we're very, very fortunate that our partners, Novelis and ourselves were able to sit down, take the best of today. In terms of carbon neutrality and circularity performance in the world and design in infrastructure that they're building the first multi billion dollar rolling mill in North America since the late 80s. It will be green energy. It will be 85% recycled content. But most important, I think in the manufacturing space, typically you're designing in the most efficient for today in the shortest payback period. That is not at all what we believe you need. We believe you need an innovation center that there will be to be determined innovation and engineering capabilities that will unlock future availability in a greener transportation pathway for our product. And so we subsidize that we're not part of the IRA. We don't have subsidies. So this is ball corporation paying a little bit more right now. We won't see the first world coil coming off those lines till 2028. So that's a very challenging dialogue obviously with your shareholders and your board to commit to that big of investment. But our belief is that it's a license to operate in the future and that will be the cheapest aluminum in the world at the time that that comes online. So we're incredibly excited, very thankful for our partners, very thankful for the First Rivers Coalition to put us together and help us see the light there. So we're excited to continue to tell the aluminum story and more to come. Thank you Dan. I think for those watching, there's a real power in this value chain collaboration. And for those policymakers and the people who have to sort of put in the frameworks in place, we've gone from well as no demand signal. I'm going to be jumping off a policy cliff to actually you've got a real proof of collaboration and what that can mean. And I think that some of the innovation around the advance purchasing, the advance to offtake agreements, give certainty to the policymakers and this public policy partnership. It's a bit of a cliff when you've got 14 year old twin girls and you haven't paid for college yet. Exactly. But we're just making the cliff a little shallower. So there you go. But now to Annabelle, the president CEO of Vattenfall. So Vattenfall, famous historically as an energy company, you're involved in value chain collaboration in aviation, cement and concrete, steel and trucking I think in this collaboration. And of course famously, I think you've probably got more headlines for the collaboration Volvo on fossil fuel free steel in the last year or so. But could you talk about again what you would need from the public policy side to respond and perhaps talk about how you're driving this kind of collaboration. Yeah, I'll be happy to thank you. Thank you. And I think first and foremost, it's important to conclude that the business of tomorrow will not be run on fossil fuels. And I think that is the direction that is probably clear for everybody in this room. But I think that if you haven't started to transform your business yet, it's really about time to think about how much can I lag behind without losing my competitiveness. And I think that is the starting point for us when we look at this from a business perspective. And I think that what is needed now is probably not so much policies or subsidies and I will come back to that. I think what is needed is that leaders in business but also in politics actually move. So I think that the move part of the First Movers Coalition is going to be even more important going forward. And we've already heard many great examples of that. I think that when it comes to Wattenfall, we set out maybe some eight years ago on a journey where we say that we want to enable fossil freedom. And that is our business strategy. And ever since then, we have been transforming our business in three tracks basically. Our own portfolio of assets, which we are working on continuously, everything that we purchase from our suppliers, but also everything that we provide to our customers and that they use. We are set out to be net zero by 2040 in all those goals, including the customer usage. And we are well on the way. And we are, by the way, also meeting our financial targets and have done all the way. And I think that is the trick here. When it comes to First Movers Coalition, we are one of the proud founders of the coalition. And we have committed so far to four sectors. It's steel, cement, aviation and trucking. And we do have initiatives going on in all of them. When it comes to steel, the one that's been most talked about is probably the hybrid project together with SSAB. There's also First Movers Coalition member, a steel company and also LKAB, a mining company, where we jointly built a power plant for producing fossil free steel in a process where we use green hydrogen made of fossil free energy. And the sort of climate or the carbon footprint is basically zero from that steel. It is up and producing and is now about to scale massively. The demand is clearly there. That is not the problem. And as you also mentioned, Volvo is one of the first off-takers of this steel. And we're also involved in aviation, so regarding sustainable aviation fuel, but also electric fuels together with a number of partners. We're also doing integrated development with our clients when it comes to fueling their transformation with fossil free energy together with BASF, for example. Or with Volvo also outside this sort of hybrid project. We have a number of projects going on where we simply build the energy that they need in order to make their transformation. I think that many of these bankable agreements mentioned within the coalition are extremely interesting and also a way of sort of fueling this transformation. Maybe just one recent example where I know that Amazon, who is the first movers coalition member, are buying trucks from Volvo, who is the first movers coalition member. Those trucks are electric and they are made out of fossil free steel produced by SSAB, who is the first movers coalition member in this hybrid plant where Wattenfall, who is the first movers coalition member, provided the green hydrogen and the electricity needed to produce that. And we clearly see the sort of business rationale in all these parts. So I think that this transformation is only in the beginning and there are a lot of business opportunities out there to grab, but we should also be clear that of course there are challenges. And there will be obstacles and there will be ups and downs, and that's why we are here. That's our job as business leaders to manage our businesses through that transformation and be successful also in the other end. And I think that first movers coalition is a great tool to do that in a business fashion. So is what you're all saying that there is a green premium, but that that's not an obstacle, that's something that can be cleared? I think that the green premium is often exaggerated because you have to put it in relation to other things. If you take the steel for example, the green premium in the beginning is estimated to be approximately 25%, but once the price for carbon emissions will increase, the relative difference between traditional steel and that will disappear. And I think if you translate that premium into what it means for an end consumer and you put that fossil free steel into a car that you and I would buy, the extra cost for the fossil free steel in that car is equivalent to two USB sockets that you put into the car. So I think it's doable. If the regulatory environment that is projected maintains itself, then it's not a premium. If you lapse those, it becomes a significant premium in a big risk in the future. So we just have to continue down the path to sustain what we've all laid out and what governments have laid out, and then it's not a premium. Now, and I think the best thing that governments and policymakers can make is not pouring subsidies into this, but rather de-risking the scaling of the technologies because the capital is there to fund it then. Well, let's go to the capital then. So, a beautiful segue there, thank you Anna. So to Carlos Torres, chairman of BBVA, one of the first European banks I think to lead on sustainability and a member of the first mover coalition. So you're financing across the economy. What do you see as exciting from a financial perspective, from a bankers perspective, and what would you like to see from the public policy in order to create this certainty going forward that would help? Thank you. What we see is very exciting and the stories we just heard really are building up an immense opportunity and we're here to finance, we're secondary actors, we're finance doing the emitting, we're not the ones that need to do the investment, but we're definitely the ones who can and are supporting companies like yourselves in carrying out the projects. Certainly the first mover coalition is helping closing the loop and de-risking the project so that they can be easily bankable, like Anna was saying, and that is all very exciting. But I would have a much more critical or complementary viewpoint from what you two just described as regards government policy. I think we're only scratching the surface. Secretary Kerry was mentioning earlier, we need to go a lot faster, we need to accelerate and we need to get from first movers to all movers. What I see is that current policy is really a challenge. It's really not helping eliminate the green premiums because there was a lot of ifs in what you described, so the carbon pricing and all. What I see is that there is excessive focus or maybe at times sole focus on the supply side as if the end user was not the ultimate reason why we are emitting. And if we want to move from well-meaning companies that have strategic goals and are forward-looking and our first movers, if we want to move from that to a widespread demand signal, we really need to change to a collective set of policies that are coherent, that are consistent, that get the job done. And we are far from that. Even at times we see how policymakers succumb to short-term pressures to isolate, which is crazy, isolate demand from the consequences of the supply side policies. And it not need to be antisocial to actually make consumers feel the signals. You can balance. And I think if we want not only to deploy faster the existing technologies, that makes sense, but also we want to have sufficient investment in developing and scaling the technologies that we need to solve many of the hard-to-solve problems, the hard-to-abate sectors, then we need consumers to feel the signal. And yes, we can compensate those that are most affected by the transition. That's very compatible, but we really need to, again, to act together on the demand side. And certainly carbon pricing is an essential piece of the framework. And we're far from carbon pricing to be widespread. There's just so much of emissions that are today not taken into account. So, again, our role is secondary. We're here to support. And we would love to see so much more happening if only we could get policy makers to adopt, to really bite the bullet. So can I just push you a little bit? I mean, I think that's a very succinct analysis of the sort of short-termism, long-termism, demand supply conundrum that we find ourselves in. But as a first mover coalition, a global first mover coalition, how can the private sector lean into those politicians who are simply looking at the polling data with a misinterpretation of what's actually going to serve their people better over the long run? Is there anything more that business can say? I mean, I don't want to use the word lobby, but how does the advocacy become effective? Well, laying out how inconsistent the current set of policies are and how... You can call it lobby. We're actually, as banks, not very effective at lobbying because everything we say is discounted a lot. And despite the fact that we are doing through our financing, we're having positive impact on society and really the underpinning of social progress and economic progress is the private investment, which is mostly financed through banks. Despite that being the reality, we've not heard much in the space. And maybe others and other FMC leaders could have more success. We certainly are trying to influence in Europe as much as we can. It's not all negative. Don't get me wrong. We have a lot of good things going and the carbon border adjustment mechanism, for example, is a good example, but we're just not doing enough. We just need to step it up. And it's a hard question we're asking. I don't know what the best way would be to influence policymakers to really get their act together for the long term. Maybe all of us collectively speaking out for this to happen. Minister, can I put you on the spot for 60 seconds? How do we get the government collaboration to do what is so obvious with the proof point of the First Movers Coalition? A few years ago, people were like, it's hard to abate sectors. We're never going to make any progress. And here we have tangible proof that there's collaboration along the value chain. And yet we haven't, on the government side, made as much international progress on pricing pollution and getting the kinds of collaboration necessary. What needs to happen? Well, I can't speak for all governments. I think at least in our region, we try our best to work with different governments, different partners on a set of interoperable taxonomy and standards. I think once we have a common platform where we have agreement in terms of how we look at, in terms of whether it is in the form of verifiable carbon credits, rules of origin in terms of your green hydrogen. And if we have, and of course, make sure that these standards then prevent green washing and all those other sort of untrustworthy type of transactions, I think it would be a very first, small, but very significant step, a giant leap for all of us. Having said that, the other part is really working with like-minded partners, for instance like the US. We're working very closely with Singapore in terms of the IPAF framework. We are going to look at the entire ASEAN regional grid to see how we could work on the feasibility study, both from the regulatory, the legal, and the social economic feasibility framework for the uplifting of about 650 million people living in ASEAN. So those are small steps, but actually each step is a very significant milestone. And I think we need to accelerate that. A lot of times you find that in terms of governments, continuity of the government of course is also very important. That consistency in terms of making sure the trust has been built can actually bring us a lot further. To your point about the carbon premium, we started imposing carbon tax last year. It's a ratchet up. I think we're one of the first countries in our region to do so. It's a very bold step, but we have committed to making sure that whatever premiums we collect from the carbon tax itself is plowed back into the development of renewable energy research into low carbon energy research and so on and so forth. So I'm going to wrap up now. Thank you so much. The takeaway from this, especially in a year where government continuity is on the ballot for more people than not on the planet, that it can be done. There's no doubt that we can build an economy that can operate at a low or zero carbon. There's no doubt that we can do that with smart public policy to make it equitable and fair. The question is, can we go faster to meet the science, as Envoy Kerry said? So, from Davos, thank you very much. First movers, ladies and gentlemen. Can I go that time? Yes. Sorry. Usually I'm so overstenderal, but I don't get it. Listening to this, I gotta tell you folks, you guys really are heroic. I mean that. And, Dan, I'll tell you, I'm confident that all corporations with Pepsi and Coca-Cola and their members, you guys made a profit. I won't tell everybody what it is. But the reality is you can do this and it's good business. But if we don't do it, we're going to pay much higher premiums, much higher price, everything will cost more, food chains, the economic food chain will be completely disrupted, there'll be chaos in the marketplace in a sense, whereas this is the orderly transition unfolding right for your eyes. And our goal is not to have everybody join the first movers coalition, but to have a sufficient number of people in the first movers coalition that everyone is a mover. And we want to put ourselves out of business in terms of first mover. So that's the goal. So thank you all very, very much.