 I'm on the show Absolute Normie How's it going, bro? Oh my gosh, how's everybody? How are you? You reading that dude, you know what's funny? No, I think I have only read like half a book since The Big Bang because I just can't read it anymore. I Will try to read once in a while because because before I had this condition of I wanted to be really smart and really Intelligent and really creative. That was one of the the condition I told you let go if I wake up tomorrow morning and IQ of 75 I would not give a fuck at all. I'll be like, okay. Okay. I cute. What is that? Okay, sorry, but before I was really obsessed with like gaining knowledge and trying to be have a big brain and stuff I'll read three hours a day. I'll go to the clubs and even when I go to the clubs I went in line. I'll have it like a book of philosophy reading reading like Wittgenstein And while I was waiting to go to the club and fuck girls to satisfy both like my intellectual desire And my sexual desire but from the perspective of the natural state, which is what we're gonna talk about They're actually all the same thing But I just randomly went and picked up this book for my closet yesterday. Philip K. Day baby, baby and The dude so we are after realization everything that you picked up has something that's that has the the food of the The state in it has yeah, I mean why not right because everything is made up of right but some books are more direct than others So let me just read you one quote that pretty much is gonna sum up a lot of what we're gonna talk about There's so many good quotes in here And movies so I don't know man Netflix. I've been watching a lot of Netflix almost every show on Netflix you can Extrapolate and be like this is not the wallet. This is spirituality This is about Emptiness God realization what do you want to call it? But anyway, listen to this Eternity is a kind of measure but to be measured belongs not to God Therefore, it does not belong to him to be eternal. That's fucking deep one Just think thousands of people you know, no one possessing I read like 10 pages and just like three quotes and that pretty much sums up everything we're gonna talk about so Anyway, so sorry for that ramble This during the second quote on my end at least you cut out. Can you just repeat the second quote just in case? Wait, are you frozen or what? Can you hear me on my end you cut out why? Second quote, we will be right back after a short break Okay, you froze during the reading of the second quote so reread the second quote for us, okay, so okay fine Okay, so everything else before that was okay. You can edit it, right? Yeah, except we're not gonna edit it for you But but yeah, that's fine, but it's not gonna people are not gonna wait for five minutes, right? Yeah, okay, so we had a little technical difficulty. We had a little succession in here Okay, so here's a quote Want to come you be exciting just think thousands of people unified into one entity the UT He calls it which is everyone and no one possessing absolute knowledge because he has no single limiting viewpoint Anyway, I just read two quotes from this book that I've been reading that pretty much summarizes everything we're gonna talk about It's very interesting when you disappeared during that cessation. I Mentioned to the audience that we were having a minor Break until you pop back in so it works out Great start with those coats a little follow-up to that would be as you all know Frank has been quite adamant about people reading See if I can get this to Show up there. We go idea Shanti's the end of your world and as Frank mentioned a moment ago at times it can feel like the attention is not focused and That you can't get through reading and I would question that and Ask yourself. Are you propagating a victim script? Oh, I can't read a book anymore That's a good point. It's a really good point There's a lot of people promulgating this victim script of I'm I live in the information age now I can't read a book Bruh you recommended this and I read it in two days because I fucking cared to read it That's all you have to do if you put a little fire under your ass You can finish reading, you know a hundred pages in a day without a problem But you have to have a little fire under your ass and you actually have to read for like 10 hours of the day and Take good notes highlight good things while you read but the point is is that this are got to turn so many other of the Greatest spiritual teachers and mystic traditions have said Desire Ernestness is number one. How fucking bad do you want to know your true nature? That's it True, very true. So just the only thing curiosity Because dude man, how hard is it to go back to your true nature? It's not that I was right here It's right. You probably just It doesn't take 40 years, bro That's nothing we're gonna talk about how I think I think one of the reasons why it takes some people 40 years to Get to their natural state is because they're stuck in the spirituality paradigm Yeah, they identified themselves as a seeker. Yes, and if spirituality is all about dissolving conditionings of the separate self spirituality is a great program for that, right Spirituality is what I call the meta program is the mother of all programs that's used to dissolve all the previous programs We can list them all and people will be Yeah identified with all of them the CEO program that no fat program the post-modernism program You know science program atheism program the pickup program the philosophy program the science program the bodybuilding program You went to the mall in life. You're like, holy shit. That doesn't satisfy me And finally you hop on this whole spirituality program And now you see things now and use spirituality as a program to dissolve the other programs but spirituality itself after you sort of accumulated all the fruits and all the levels on the in this game You acquire all the wisdom of the Janas whatever all the insights Spirituality as a whole program must also self-destruct for you to return to the natural state That's right. It's a good segue into jumping into the stages that is as Frank just described to you in these short stages that is this fifth stage Transcending the entire paradigm of spirituality itself that very Natty state the natural state so We'll go ahead and pull up towards this long definition of the stages first and a brief Entry into that. We're just going to mention that each stage has three levels. There's the more intellectual There's the experiential and the realized and it's important to be sincere and honest with which level you are at with each stage So let's go ahead and have Frank kick us off with the stages to find long Okay, let's do it. So Before I go into the stages, I just want to remind people that all those stages are just references Just like the code that I read nothing can No labels can touch This But during the path it's very valuable to have stages I mean it helped myself and a lot of people and if you look at a lot of different research About the different stages of waking that people go through like Warsaw Jeffery Martin or even the third about our four path model whether the models that are, you know Advocated by people like Daniel Ingram or whatever tradition that you're in there's always going to be some kind of stages in there Except for the really radical non-door teachers but usually people do go through different stages among filming and The stage we're gonna talk about if you really want to match it you can match it to any school any tradition and what makes sense Stage number one is ego state stage of separation Basically, you're identifying yourself with this character inside the meat soup your sense of identity or sense of self is behind the eyes inside the head Or somewhere in the meat soup you're a contracted You're separated from the rest of the environment. There's a huge gap between the subject and the object Okay, second stage you have the awareness and consciousness space This is where I was a 95% of mainstream spiritual teachers talk about the teacher abide in Awareness they tell you that you choose self is awareness or abide in consciousness or witness observer Whatever the reason for that is because after you see through that the ego is an illusion that it's just a fabrication You have to move your sense of identity to a larger ground after you have more spiritual openings and glimpses and Then you sort of disidentified from the ego and now your identification is with this new ground of awareness and consciousness Now this is a very vast Infinite spacious field, but there's still an observer here There's still someone that's observing the ego and the next step is to unplug even that to dissolve even the observer to be aware of awareness To witness the witness observe the observer And if you can't witness anything or observe anything you can still Disidentified from it. You can still objectify it and you realize that the observer is just actually more solidified in the field of experience that's taking credit for Nature or the universe at first it was the ego taking credit for you have this huge block of solidity like a marble taking credit trying to take credit or Infinity and then Awareness trying to take credit for infinity So now your new identification is awareness and the reason people ask you to abide awareness is not This is a very important point. It's not to create a new identity out of awareness and be like I am awareness I mean that is the better more spacious identity than the ego, but you're an identity After you unplug different awareness you dissolve even the observer You move it to the third stage is which is what I call the God stage This is the infinity stage. You know the creator being Christ consciousness Ottoman big self true self love existence the universal mind and This third stage is what I call the pinnacle of spirituality the pinnacle of spiritual experiences anyway Maybe not the pinnacle of spirituality but the pinnacle of human spiritual experiences and a lot of people think this is it Which it could be I mean every stage is complete of itself. Don't get me wrong every single stage every aspect of the jewel The multiplicity of jewel of enlightenment is complete. So we're not really making a hierarchy. It's more like Horizontal anyway at the start at the third stage we identify with the Godhead With the universal mind, but there is still a very subtle very subtle Identification because even at this point at this stage the separation Hasn't been completely dissolved. So you feel like you're merging with the divine as long as there's merging There's still a very subtle sense of duality So that's why I want to make a very clear distinction between you as a separate person Experiencing the divine versus just the divine recognizing itself Universe fucking itself versus you trying to fuck the universe There is a big distinction there anyway, so after the third stage we move on to nothingness after expansion What do we get? We did contraction this whole process is about expansion and contraction after you expand to infinity You shrink down from the big bang to the big crunch down to the singularity of nothingness emptiness Nirvana non-being or Brahman death non-existence So basically three and four are two sides of the same coin so at this phase You have this very nabulous sense of self total loss of identity Where the third stage you go around saying hey, I am God In the second stage you pay for all I'm consciousness. Don't you get it? Spirituality I am consciousness and the third stage you ice up consciousness. No, I'm God And the fourth stage you Total loss of identity you have this really big Nabilisance of self that you can't define it off and this is kind of like the stuff that Buddha talks about the emptiness the originations Where you Disidentified from even God consciousness because if you can be aware of God consciousness if you can experience God consciousness It's still an object within your field of experience that you can still Disidentify and objectify and make it not self and not this not that so we do a self inquiry along the way, right? And after this phase you slip into the natural state now This is very very tricky because stage three and four a lot of people would get stuck in a stage thinking This is it which again, I completely understand because I've been there and again each stage is complete But there's more to the picture. There's more to the fast different jewels of enlightenment the nothingness face If you can still experience this very subtle sense of law sense of self so to speak There's still an experience there if there is an experience you can still witness it objective on it and after you disidentify And disembed all the previous stages spontaneously you move to this fifth stage Like a true and no self or the natural state the town so this stage not only Transcend all the other stages Inclusive as well because the only way to truly embody something is to Disidentify from it if you let go of it becomes yours even more fully and All the previous stages all the experiences of the mind blowing especially had that can be experienced even more fully paradoxically without the experiencer in the middle and This is the whole process is to dissolve the center point if you want to boil this down to the I Guess the microscopic level it's all about dissolving sensations and the last piece of sensation to get Dissolved from solidity to emptiness. It's usually somewhere in the center in the head Before it was in the body, but then you keep shredding shredding shredding and it was in the head Even if this last little bit of speck of sensation is as tiny as an atom It's still going to project itself onto a new ground and the smaller this atom is the bigger this ground is If it gets a natural state you have to dissolve not just the ego, but the background as well The background that gets created from the separate state and say oh even though my identity is this tiny little thing here That I can't even find it's in the middle of my experience That's you're gonna Kind of hang on to some sort of a ground some sort of a source like ramen or like Godhead and very subtly You're sticking to think hey, I am from I am God. This is just the Godhead. This is why I did shantay Let that out. No, no, no, no, we'll get you out of shanty later. But this is what I say If realizing true self of no self is like perceiving the world without the eyeball Because the eyeball can't see itself. They can see everything else. So if you really truly recognize no so You're not gonna be of experience They still have this sense of hope I'm looking for the soap, but I can't find it. Oh, it's infinite That's still not true. No, so there's true. No self. There's nothing you can say about it But the eyeball that nothing to be said about can see things and The manifestation of this what it sees You can describe and there's infinite levels to the manifestation If that's finding out your true self An eyeball that can't see itself another analogy that similar is a mirror versus no mirror first you have a source you perceive the world as Denominance rising and passing out of a mirror the mirror could be any ground that you're a counter in the path With the consciousness awareness or the God mind But after you truly dissolve separation If the ego is gone, so is the so is the mirror so is the sword so is the ground So you have to deconstruct even the background You have to do self-increase with the self the small self the ego and then you have to do self-increase with the big self You have to do self-increase with the God mind But to do that you first have to access the God mind You have to access and identify with something before you can just identify from it So all that's why all these different paths have to be sort of go through you go through each one of them And then you just identify for them But by this side of our problem you actually disappear into them if you disappear into them you actually manifest them even more fully So they're only reflections but no mirror at the end. There's only a manifestation There's no unmanifested There's no source no background the unmanifested is just something that you imagine Because how can there be something that's not manifested if it's not the reality if this is one thing, right? There's only the manifested There's no mirror That's the answer to the Zen koan. What is the sound of one hand clapping? That's that that's the answer to that koan That's really cool. There's actually this damn master or maybe I think he was reading some some poem or some Koan that he student wrote and for his student was writing about oh man The mind is like a mirror after shine the mirror and everything just coming in and out of this Buddha mind This natural mind, but then after that he realizes wait a second this mirror this Buddha mice also just a construction And then he said there's no mirror Okay, that was a little thank you. There we go. Thank you a little presentation It could be helpful for potentially me to do the short version and also unpack the stages With the levels because that's a big way of how I've been experiencing Realizing yeah So to play on what Frank just unpacked for us Right before before you guys want to say one more thing if you find the stage the stage is very complicated Just remember one thing this whole spiritual path is about one thing this solution of the conditions that makes up the separate The more you dissolve the more Glimpses of reality, which is formless. It's open up and all the mystical experience that you experience are just a by-product of This realization itself is not an experience Bigger this my boring few is good and the separate self both disappeared Without the subject there won't be an object. Give it the object that is God consciousness eventually dissolves and there's just this the absolute normie Now you're free to put on different lenses of perception as you see fit Do we freeze again? You did for a moment, but now you're back. Can you hear me? We had another cessation experience Thank you everyone for tuning in Thanks for all your love in the comments. Oh, man. Where did I get caught off again? There's another secession that happened. So that's exactly what I was just saying Where you You you covered You were finishing covering dissolving the conditions of the separate self being what everything is pointing at Yeah So basically the entire spiritual path if you find this whole map to complex Just remember that the whole process is the solution of the separate self in its condition That's it the more it is off the bigger opening you're gonna get That's why the stages of awareness and God and nothing that's whatever, right? So if the separation is completely dissolved when the subject in the center is completely vanished So is the background the background is also going to vanish So it's not like there is really ultimately no difference between ego awareness infinity and it's all the same They're just different with configuration and solidity of sensations Which we're gonna talk about in a bit of a sensation time but perfect Yes, because looking Back Let's say ten years or so for most of us all of this was present All five of these were present. Yes. Yes, and that's always what's so funny, that's why it's the cosmic joke and We just didn't know That what we were we didn't know our true nature and So we thought because we had fallen into the illusion of the contracted separate self conditioning and identity which very much so is promulgated by the civilization by the mainstream by our family friends any of us for a child And There are specific Traditions around the planet, especially indigenous lineages where the child is birthed Into Recognition of the natural state off the bat, which is really interesting So the contraction doesn't form which is really interesting. So when we talk about Spirituality and we talk about pedagogies for an awakened civilization one of the core components of that as we bring these educational platforms into virtual reality and whatnot for kids to experience Is in essence, it's the prevention of the egoic separate condition self from forming Correct and seeing that natural state right off the bat So now that we've sort of been looking back like what we were like about 10 years ago or so It gives us a better understanding of what this Staged system has been over the past 10 years. Let's say and really it Starts off with the question the bigger your question and The stronger your desire and earnestness to have it answered the faster you will know your true nature so the Sufi metaphysic goes Only the ignorance seek what's already there yet it remains for you to recognize it So it's already there, but yet it remains for you to recognize it And so your quality of your life in many ways is the quality of your questions And so if you start off with the big questions What is consciousness? What is the nature of reality who am I and why am I here? If you just start off with these big picture Metaphysical questions what you will do is you will immediately You know Romana Papaji have talked about this you're basically fanning the fire That's burning of this big question of this big metaphysical question And so that's what gets you to go okay What is God? What is the absolute? What is? Mysticism which means union with that What is that process? Why do I not already feel like I am that? That's a core question. Why do I feel like I am not already that? Why do I feel like I am not already perfect freedom itself? Why has my identity? Fallen into a separate conditioned self rather than the entirety of life And so that's a really powerful starting point And then that's what leads you to as you go and find all of these different information sources across The mystic traditions and across retreats and across entheogens and across aphorisms and books and all these profound things what you're doing is you're slowly like Frank said you are deconditioning What you've been conditioned with as this egoic separate self-contracted identity and so slowly in that process of deconditioning you can Go from this first to this second stage and it's I typically Reference it as a pop Because in very many ways, it's it feels like you've never actually Been aware of your awareness or you've never been conscious of consciousness You were never you were Eckhart Tolle talks about it like habitually Overlooking or perpetually overlooking the fact that you can see Like awareness is not profound at all So I'm just gonna focus on objects and perceptions and sensations and desire and dopamine here in a relationship or a That type of mentality We never were so In awe about the fact that we were conscious ever we never noticed that we truly Wow, we have the power to know the power to know itself So it's a big pop in a sense into this like oh my gosh consciousness Awareness the power to know holy fuck like stream entry stream entry. Yes, like Like it's so on that in itself is so ineffable because you're like reality is dependent on this power to know it's so unbelievably beautiful We are the designers of the power to know what though and so You know this stream entry where basically it means that upon this you're pretty much Guaranteed to continue your way down to the ocean. You're pretty much guaranteed and The more earnestness the more desire the more fanning of the flame that you have The more you'll actually pop into these next stages, but like Frank indicated earlier. It is also a likelihood that you will get Be awareness. Just chill. You're good brah. You're awareness brah Before the the condition of the separate sub is completely dissolved You're always gonna find a new identity and the point of that is to Dissolve even more your body awareness so you can continue to dissolution of the separate self not to Reattach your identity to that awareness. I mean, of course in emptiness and just you know Even in natural say, of course, there's awareness Duh, right, but there's a very subtle difference between the self-identified as awareness versus just awareness Being itself and at the natural state, you're not gonna even label your experience as awareness It doesn't occur to you with the natural state. This is awareness That's why I say you dissolve your awareness. It's not like I'm not aware Would you ask a dog or a cat? What is awareness? Consciousness and awareness is something you read from spirituality book to In various San Paris Meditation Act, they're like hey the nature of reality is consciousness that in itself. It's just an idea And it's up. It's just an idea. It's not what I'm not saying. We're not conscious. I'm just saying consciousness Just no projection There's an experience here. Sure reality realities the universe is neither Consciousness nor not consciousness. It cannot be defined not even by consciousness And if you stay on the ground of consciousness Automatically you're gonna pull all those different theories and ideas and experiences about consciousness from stuff that you read and that Process is already better have more conditions and you get mad at people for not understanding consciousness You're like, hey man Everything's conscious. Don't you get it? You're not a person. You're consciousness and you get mad And you're not just that you don't get mad at like that You don't get mad at stuff like that anymore because you're not a trusted identity of even consciousness You man, I got I need to plug this motherfucker. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead and I'll Yeah, and I'll explain where what you just said is super important and resonant with this short definition The stages defined short is it's really important to not Fall into the crevices along the way which Adya Shanti talks about like superiority man Special ego spiritual ego is another one. Yeah enlightened ego. Yeah, and For example, what happened to me in December when I went from this December 2020 this pop from ego separation although there was so much of this understanding of Oneness so much of it, but not and this is a great way to talk about how each stage Has these levels Where you could say that in a sense my understanding of oneness was very intellectual and so In December what happened in this shift this pop Was my first you could say experiential true experiential taste of awareness of consciousness and So what happened also at the same time as this experiential Level to the second stage so you see how we're talking about this now So it's this level to experiential about stage two awareness The moment that I popped into that of course there was the whole rewiring of the energy of the entity itself crying just I can't believe it was here the whole time type thing But also the ego it comes back and it makes an identity out of the Awareness it makes an identity and so if you can be vigilant if you can be aware of When your ego tries to grasp on to the stages and Make a new spiritual identity out of it And it's a very natural part of the process as Adi Shanti and so many others in the mystic traditions have talked about It's just very natural for as you sort of go through these stages to have the ego Come back and grasp on to the new achievement and then create a new identity for people to see the entity out Oh because then you're getting your child the all those childhood conditionings of separation are now being validated by other people Because you have some sort of metaphysical credits now and so I fell into this trap That's why I'm speaking about it from experience and by the way the same thing happened to me with this so Again you can say that this transition from awareness to infinity is very fascinating as well because the intellectual understanding of infinity is when you do things like you look at the Benoit Mandelbrot infinite fractal zoom and so you're watching this math be infinitely zoomed and showing this beautiful fractal like complexity that Just never ends and then you're like oh that's infinity, you know, that's probably what we are and it's very Intellectual and it's so beautiful And it because these are easy sort of ways or if you look at MC Escher's work Which we've talked about quite a bit on the show as well and Douglas Hofstadter featured him in Gertel Escher Bach and You know his work also very intellectually tries to pop you into an experiential knowledge of infinity and so I remember in February or so of twenty twenty-one Frank Yang posted his infinity visualization and Right when that was sort of the moment when I again sort of popped I was like oh Shit, this is infinity fucking itself. Oh my gosh. And so that was sort of my like okay now It's a little bit more experiential and so now there's this okay. Well, what is true infinity in pure potential infinite possibility? That's what we are that and and so then there's this process of again The ego comes in and it's like oh it's infinity now. You should make your identity about infinity make your identity about that As Frank likes to say Be a spiritual cunt have everybody see you as a spiritual cunt, you know, you know You have the truth and so that kicked in and then this most recent sort of Another you could say going from I am everything pure potential endless You'll never come to the end of that pure potential Which actually we talked about on that first episode together where I was going through that explanation to you Which was how many different ways? Can you color a blank canvas? How many ways? Can you arrange musical notes into a song? How many ways can you modulate a screen? Etc. There's another way to perceive this thing where we also showed that the visualizations was the loop is the infinite loop The figure where after you dissolve most of your centers After you dissolve the center point of the ego Infinity just moves back on itself like this cosmic snake biting some tail kind of picture, right? This one is really cheeky though because as Frank was indicating There's much of spirituality is taught around getting you from ego to consciousness or awareness and then Let alone are the two sides of the coin of Infinity and emptiness really played around with that much and So again, this was like last year I was looking at no self and anata and Studying and it was kind of it was kind of setting in intellectually maybe a little bit But there was no experience around Emptiness or nirvana being blown away You could say I had a little glimpse of what this was at my first Theravada Buddhism 10-day meditation retreat my first sit the Pasha and so You can get these little glimpses, but that's not it's it's a taste of the experiential But it's definitely not it's sitting in experientially and so What for me was a big pivotal moment going from this? I am everything. I am infinity to I am nothing to I am emptiness is In a sense Sensation is probably the best way to put it. It's like It's that's it There's just there's nothing to be able to say about what it feels like when there is nothing There is no atlas. There is no creation. There is this dream is popped the mind is not in a state of It's just there's nothing Go ahead Yeah, the see everything before the natural state could be said to be an experience There are realizations within this all those ages, but the last age the natural state is purely in realization Because that's when the experiencer gets dissolved Before the experiencer gets dissolved you go through those stages There's still gonna be experiences and all spiritual and mystical experiences are mostly just a byproduct the response To the realizations that you have so you can go through the different levels of realization from ego to awareness or infinity to emptiness and Before because the experiencer hasn't been completely dissolved. It's always gonna respond to separate entity that's still there It's always gonna respond to reality in different ways and if you get like a bliss or ecstasy or you know a joy you get a spiritual high but if you respond to it with confusion and Discuss or fear you get your dark night of the soul or so they're actually two sides of the same coin So there's always gonna be experience on top of realization prior to the fifth stage The natural state which at the purest level it's a realization. You cannot experience no self Everything you experience about no self is the bar this is not exactly no self because no self you cannot locate no self at all It's like an eyeball that can't see itself like we said earlier if an eyeball can see itself You cannot define it at all. You cannot even experience it You could say it's quote-unquote non-existence But that's still putting a label on it Yeah, it's basically when you disidentify from every single particle in your entire infinite field Yes Right, but then once if you still identify to even that then there's no I know this is This is this is really important because this is why these levels play into what we're discussing because It's really important to sort of be sincere or honest with which level you're at with each stage and sort of the more that you Dissolve your separate self-conditioned identity the more you stop giving a fuck about what other people think of you and Because you realize your life itself and so in a sense to be super honest with oneself about this process like for example for me I Feel pretty firmly that infinities pretty experiential and getting to the point of realized and emptiness is also Getting to a point of like being better and better experiential and so for me, I'm sort of like here plus also understanding what is meant by Transcending the entire paradigm completely because you dissolve into life itself and you become an ordinary Absolute normie like the title of our podcast And I feel like that's why you know You know enlightenment being a realization That's what Frank's saying that you know, you're really realizing the fact that you've went through this process of Decontracting the energetic Conditioning and separate self associations and now once you've gotten through that process You realize that this whole staged system is Completely to be transcended and to not even be seen as a spiritual cunt as a spiritual teacher You gotta dissolve even the halo on your head see people talk about like cundalini energies and chakras, right? I mean, I went to that phase where I was like I was a cundalini cunt I was like game all my chakras open up now. I'm badass. I have magic not super power But then little did I know that was only the Solution the reason why you have cundalini energies because you're releasing all the junk of your soul Out from your body to the anus of the That's it And then I was responding to this person yesterday in the forum They're like oh the highest state of awareness and consciousness is we have a lot of energies And I would say that's not quite true because the highest state of awareness is when the body might actually has no energy Because if all your chakras open up, you're not gonna be able to feel them Once you embody something so thoroughly that you can't even see them. That's when you really are it So In a sense the body might doesn't feel energy anymore, but you feel a sort of quote-unquote universal drive or will to To move around the why? The reason why I'm even with my head at all It doesn't feel like it's even when I go to the gym It doesn't feel like it's coming from an energy. That's within the body. It just feels like the universe is moving itself I'll say a lot of Spiritual teachers or mystics and sages the reason why they attract a lot of followers is because they have a lot of spiritual energy spiritual calm But they haven't dissolved the last speck of the spiritual content self That's why you look at like Ramana. He's If I go to Ramana, okay If you're still on the spiritual path if you go to Ramana, you might have experienced like Outer space upon his presence But I'm willing to bet if you understand what I'm talking about here And if you empty out yourself completely if you go to Ramana, you're gonna see an old man a diaper That's no different from trees and Whatever he opens up within you. It's not that he's transmitting anything to you because he isn't he's emptying out He has no energy inside him. Whatever you feel during his presence is that thing that the willingness of your own body My that's allowing this to take place within you So the truest form of transmission is actually the guru being a complete hollow Holographic strongman just sitting there and then upon seeing him he activates something within yourself That's the true transmission the transmitting of yourself to yourself Yeah, and you can think about it like a seven chakra system and having a Potential blockage is happening, especially going from like the solar plexus to the heart. This seems to be the most common one for people today Not even getting to necessarily the state of love absolute love But then even past that to the throat and Ajna and the crown is that what's happening? Is that somebody else that has completely unblocked those chakras is the guru? Right is the one that is holding this truth or channeling this truth and then the one that has the blocked Chakras is coming and just being there with the empty that has the completely unblocked Chakras is Enabling the unblocking of towards freedom. Basically. It's like you illusory created your own cage and Then the being in presence of that which is empty that has no cage is Enabling you to be like unblock unblock and then get out of cage out of cage freedom freedom That's a really good point because the only way another group another guru can dissolve your condition is Because he already dissolved it if he hasn't dissolved it. He wouldn't be able to He wouldn't be able to make you dissolve it in a sense like you wouldn't okay So let's say this guru is still he's he still has energy in the third eye Like he's oozing out kind of lean Jews and everybody loves it. He's vibrant and if you sit in front of that guru You can't dissolve the the chakra on the third eye because he hasn't dissolved his You know what I mean? Yeah Yeah, you know my point for example with with me for example, there will be people that come and talk to me about doing these unblockings that we're talking about but this unit is of life is Limited in its capacity based on its own unblockings that have happened so For this unit of life can only help unblock other units of life that seek to be unblocked Based on how much this unit of life has unblocked itself so if you're still at a place where you're barely in the Heart chakra of love which I'm still even feeling that I'm learning how to navigate that more and more swiftly and frictionlessly That it's it's gonna be Like it like Frank's basically saying it just boils down to seeing everything as one homogenous existence Seeing everything as life fucking itself without a center You're not you're not a centered separate contracted identity anymore But you're identified with all of life itself fucking itself and that you're all your little conditionings and by the way It's not tomorrow. It's that these conditionings will come up in a month But come up in three months and six months in a year these little egoic separation Conditionings will arise and you'll be like, oh, what was taking me out of? Enlightenment basically what was taking me into a divisive into a state of division and then you have to analyze that truthfully sincerely Honestly, and then move yourself back into a state of this is all one life fucking itself and that's Mentality will sort of help you purify This is a quote by Nisa Gata He said Wisdom is knowing I am nothing a love is knowing that I am everything and in between the two poles my life moves and that sums this up Perfectly the wisdom he's talking about is the emptiness is the end of the vipassana path Where it is off every single speck of solidity within your body mind and now you realize emptiness But then these emptiness has to be merged with form but ultimately emptiness and for all the same thing But some people realize emptiness more than form and vice versa It's very interesting. Some people realize the form aspect of it the infinity the love aspect where more than emptiness But the perfect unification of emptiness and form is Buddhahood The wisdom once you reach the end of the wisdom axis when to realize emptiness That's our hostage The vipana the death the non-being and the Buddha Saffa face or the Christ consciousness face. It's the infinity face Infinite love universal mind. Yeah That's the form aspect of it and It's the merging of the two that gives rise to Buddha hood when I say Buddha who I'm not restricted to the tradition of Buddhism I'm just talking about your true nature My true nature because in a sense emptiness is what enables you to it's what enables you to not have this Perpetuation of mind and thought that you're attached to it's what enables you to just be completely clean of all of those attachments and all of those sensations and perceptions It's like the windshield wiper. You're constantly and we'll talk about this in a bit Just no sensations touch. And so if you can hold that emptiness while also holding Absolute infinitude and serving the creation awakening being a shepherd for it simultaneously That's such a profound Yeah, that's why I said the natural states kind of like a secession the ninth Where you just become completely unconscious You totally blink out of existence, you know, the universe just disappear. You pretty much you kill yourself You die before you die. There's not an emptiness there. There's no awareness at all. It's almost like going back to a dream of sleep but you Quote-quote train yourself to get there instead of just, you know falling asleep the ninth drama the state of succession or fruition Combined with something like the sixth drama of infinite consciousness It's the best way I could describe the natural state. You're both alive and dead. You're totally unconscious yet totally conscious Because it's only when you completely become unconscious as a separate entity that you could manifest all of consciousness And that's the wisdom of nothingness plus the infinity of love the combination of the two Yeah, we can define that more right now and we have this section on that he stayed defined we'll get to just Briefly while you were saying all of that. I'm just It's just this last little bit of this this unit of life That was so attached to its identity Into its separation into all that's that it had built up for itself to try and extract happiness and peace and validation and all of that now dissolving into life itself and Popping it just that whole process. It's just it's just so It's it's beautiful. It's it says energetic emotional That's what it is that that that's the thing I have to love when we talk about absolute love Absolute love and truth and death and God in reality all the same thing See absolute love is not something that the separate character feels from the heart Even when you have your heart chakra is open up. That's still coming from a separated state All you want to love everybody you want to be this compassionate being right? But the absolute love actually has no emotion going back to what I was saying about how a full realization your body might There's no emotions and no energy in there anymore. There's only the universal energy So the absolute love the whole process of spirituality is about Love in yourself so much especially your shadows especially your imperfections Especially all your conditioning so you fucked up this you accept your ego and your separate state so completely that you Dissolve it because the only way you can transcend and dissolve something is to penetrate it and accept it And when you accept all of it your separate self dissolves out of a compassion for yourself out of love of Self into the love the capital L of the cell with a capital S and That process exactly what we're talking about you're dying But then you're also loving where death and love becomes two sides of the same coin You die and dissolve into love and that is the only way to manifest all of reality It's by dying into the present moment that's dying into the order of the now and that's love Love without any feels Osho calls. It's the the cold love It's a lot without any emotions without any conditions Because any kind of emotion any kind of passion is still gonna lead to suffering is still an attachment is still conditioned Even when you go to the stage of universal consciousness of the Buddha Saffa when he's like, oh, I have to wake everybody up I have to be this compassion to be that's still it very subtly depends on condition And once you merge the Buddha Saffa with our high still living in this Nirvana. They're still in the transcendental realm They're still obsessed with like death and oh, huh. I'm so much more enlightened. No y'all are in the mountains, right? That's the picture in the ten ox herding picture in Zen Buddhism where the Seeker has caught them the ox. He's wrote it and he's tamed it He's even playing the fruit on the ox, but he still hasn't let go of enlightenment itself He still hasn't let go of his own realization That's why there's a picture going back to the source where there's just a circle because once you let go off Even the self the remainder of yourself. That's identified with getting light and cunt even the board ox also disappeared Yeah, but then you get something much more Much more free after the after you dissolve both the ox and the self you go to the source the clinical source that's the emptiness phase and There's another picture after that, which is just a mountain That's what I call uni locality Where you look at the mountain, it's not you perceive in the mountain because there's no perceiver inside the mountain just perceives itself It's just a mountain. Yeah, and then you could be the mountain if you want you could be the birds the trees the sky Yeah, or the meat suit and you're not identified with any one of us So that's the difference between Nonduality which is one in the middle of stage where you know everything's one and then now locality, which is emptiness Identify from even non duality into non locality, and then you have uni locality Now you're a nobody is somebody and everybody Now you're everything nothing and something see this something this it's oftentimes missed Yeah, because people are like, oh, yeah, I'm nothing or I'm everything, but they have Something yes form of unity. It's not just oneness or non duality. Yeah, it's not just everything is a dream, bro Everything's yeah, it's all imagine you're you're nobody. There's no self nor others There's nobody here. That's to just to not truly radically love and accept the somebody is to Not be in awe at the firework of the infinite that you are Yeah, the the firework of the infinite has to include the particulars or us is not infinite So the deepest form of unity includes not just the infinite in the oneness and but also the particulars because I see a lot of people on the Duality track getting stuck in this idea of how everything is a dream and there's nothing to do There's nobody here and it's all imagine because true solipsism solipsism it's really not different from Ecosism it's just a Ecosism in the God right your sense of self has been projected into God. That's why a lot of people have such huge spiritual egos Because the big self self is God and no self They're actually very different. Yeah. Yeah, so The some body this the something this yet. They're two sides of the same coin. Yeah, they're all the same actually Yeah, but very easy to get Yeah, it's very easy to own also just Remain at the intellectual level. Yeah, which is really important and just know that the process of life reality reveals and Awakens itself to its own nature Over time and so that's the whole point of the dreamed process. That's that's happening so That was great. We'll get down here in a bit. Let's go to we were talking about the last picture that the absolute normie The last picture of the Zen can Oxford in picture. It's just a guy the fact Why is there another picture after the mountain because you even let go everything we just talked about you think you let go of it You go back all of that too, and then you just become you just you just you know, whatever bro. There's nothing to be said. Yeah Yeah, yeah And that's also a bit of what emptiness is empty gives you as well, which is Also just so meaning bro like that's the drinking wine in the market like have a fucking good time Have have a have life have a good time and it completely accept life Exactly as it is. That's what gives you freedom is when you've radically accept life exactly as it is You I remember the the moment I realized truly realized emptiness is also empty because for a while I was seen reality to the lens of perception of emptiness I was like everything. Yeah, everything I can see everything how everything's one Preparation or distant, you know the skies in the same space as my face. It's all holographic But even that's just a lens of perception because sometimes the table is just table. Yeah Sometimes the table is just the table emptiness is empty the form is also just for her. Yes Form form is emptiness, but sometimes emptiness is emptiness other times form is also just form Yes, perfect Perfect and so this is sort of what if you guys have heard Frank talk about the contemplative fitness AI Or Bentino and his global enlightenment retreat uses the analogy of raindrops on windshield as you're in the car Is that you kind of become sensation proof? so rather than having the sensation trigger a conditioning of separate self rather it's that windshield wiper or this Contemplative fitness AI that's constantly running where their gap between a sensation Coming and you Recognizing how empty the sensation is is immediate It's immediate. You recognize that it's all coming empty right away So there's no when you get to the really high levels that there's no even possibility even any more for it to come and create a Elevation of a conditioned contracted identity you ultimately that's this What we're talking about it getting to is sensation proofing yourself. Would you like to also unpack this a bit for us, Frank? Yeah, so I'm just gonna read a post that I wrote because after I write something down I don't really think about anymore. So if I yes, if I summarize it, I'll be all over the place Is it on your Instagram? Can I pull it up? I see my I posted on my story, but I didn't post all of this I don't think you can see it right now, but I think it's in one of My highlights, but I'll just read it. Yes I think the most direct and clearest way to put all those different stages of Development in labels that we've been talking about Under context is the direct realization The nature of sensations now think of sensations as the atoms of your subjective experience Both inside and outside what a meditator or a contemplator does is quote-unquote zooming into the construct and dissecting and dissolving and shred Your reality into sensations at the microscopic level All sensations are aware of themselves exactly where they are All sensations are devoid of both self with a small s and self with a capital s and spontaneously and co-dependently arising all sensations Are in equal footing so no sensation cause or own another cluster of sensations Different vibratory velocity of sensations gives rise to the difference between Chronicle air liquid and solid forms and all sensations self liberate So sensations could be anything from body sensations to emotions to side sound Emotions thoughts Basically your entire field of experience is made up of sensations So all sensations are non-dual as in sensations in and of themselves can't tell the difference between God poop Awareness consciousness emptiness eternity love intentions matter mind being sober or be psychedelic or being drunk time space etc etc and Since there is only clinical one substance there is no difference between the foreground and the background This is where we talk about deconstructing all the different stages and deconstructing even the background Between the context and the content Right because all sensations are homogenous therefore phenomenon do not arise and pass into some source That is what clinical real and permanent Now the labeling of these sensations and the labeling of these phenomenons Into concepts is you guessed it just more sensations You start to see that even concepts are sensations even labels are sensations no different from the things that they're labeling So you don't get attached even concepts So what's the difference between the awakened state in the egoic state now? This is very important in the former the knots of perception is forever untied in the awakened state because the nature of sensations is Penetrated permanently and experientially Now all sensations in your entire field of experience Lights up and are aware of themselves without a delay between the subject and an object between the perceiver and the perceived Observer and an observed the witness and the witnessing and this is your moment-to-moment experience of good the clinical Godhead of infinity of eternal awareness because when sensations are experienced without a doer Controllers here here thinker all 360 degrees panoramic are known and comprehended as itself Without the delay between this or that That's reality feels omniscient In the egoic state certain cluster of sensations arise in the center of experience Usually inside the head being behind the eyes and in place in some place inside the body That's hijacking other clusters of sensations to clinical take credit for other clusters of sensations in the field of experience And this is all due to conditioning. That's what we talked about observer being trapped in an observer because it's taking credit for reality When this happens, there's a contraction of energy when awareness or the ego is trying to you know Hijack other field of sensations to be my there's a contraction of energy and that's identification That's the feeling of manus. That's where the source of separation comes from. That's it So when you zoom Experiences down to the atomic level with max effort contraction like the poshina where you can no longer divide it this singularity Automate loops back to the other side like a strange loop. It becomes infinitely expensive That's the difference between you know the contraction method of the poshina versus the do nothing meditation We simply just relax and let infinite consciousness return to its most natural state So all those practices merges one expansion and contraction This is why the practice starts out as dissecting atoms, but at the end you end up repulsionizing the whole universe The very small is identical to the very large like the merging of quantum mechanics and cosmology Love and death at the subjective level. The parts is the whole and vice versa. The atom is the universe Now you can get to the same point either by contraction or expansion. We talked about that And also you can you know do some psychedelic trips have glimpses of this or do the contraction expansion method You know while You are under the influence of psychedelics But you know, I mean on in my own path all my insights and in realizations came naturally I mean I've experienced it with psychedelics in my my 20s and a few DMT trips But the reason why I advocate being doing it naturally is because I'm just biased Because I I I give my Natty my all the credit Anyway, so I think that's pretty much it that was so good Wait, there's another one last part Yeah, so when you take to the end point contraction and expansion Just lose meaning and this is when absolute infinity and absolute nothingness Emerge simultaneously and this goes back to what I was saying about how the natural state is like a permanent succession the unconsciousness of The Bona or the ninth drama, but also infinite consciousness of the six drama Now if if you don't see clearly the nature of sensations at all levels as being empty and full at the same time and not self One critical level is always going to see more or less real or solidified They are not a level. That's why you started to identify with awareness or consciousness or this or that gauze thing Because just stations has been seen through so one level is always going to be more solidified, right So that's when again contraction occurs identification takes place. That's cleaning and suffering So if you understand sensation at the experiential level That's it, but there's some pitfalls to this as well So the contemplative fitness AI Enables cessation at the experiential level. Yeah, and understanding sensation at the experiential level and understanding cessation of experiential level enables the Master resides in dow the natty state perpetual. Yes, but but here's a but I was posting this on a forum And then there were some responses saying this is by deconstructing Experiences only down to the microscopic level of sensations can be a little bit Reducted it's almost like a scientist who only cares about atoms Which I don't disagree with because I've seen a lot of people that are really into the view passion of path They're all about sensations. They see every experience They just reduce it down to a microscopic level of sensations and they're there They're more in the emptiness side of the equation than the love the affinity in the fullness side But my counter argument is for those people they haven't taken sensations all the way That's why there's a problem if you take sensations all the way like I said it loops back to infinity Maybe you're taking sensations down to the 99% level But 99% and 100% its quantum once you the passion I sensation down to the microscopic level and 100% you dissolve everything boom It's absolute infinity Which is same as absolute nothingness Yeah So that's why you can get to the same end point by either doing the passion at the theravada path or by doing Sort of the zochen kind of practices like do not be the sub the subversion of the ocean because ocean is full This form is the natural state But there's sub versions of it where you can do the awareness of awareness practice abiding in consciousness kind of practice like that The later form of genres kind of practice if you do that long enough You also lose back to the to the microscopic level Yeah, but there are I see a lot of people that sort of lean towards one side of the of the duality of the equation Which is really interesting. Some people are more energetic. They're talk about love a lot, you know And then the way the vibe is it's like, you know more more in touch with the Christ consciousness and both the stuff I've had and some people are more into the emptiness path If you take this all the way You merge the two you do you merge the two if you take this all the way this This is what This is it take this all the way this contemplative fitness AI Take it all the way to see sensations at this most Subatomic level if you do that You will recognize What we're talking about which is being sensation proof and Enabling you to reside in life itself to dissolve into life Fucking itself endlessly. Yes one more point. So what exactly is the natural state that the The natural state is just the fact that once you see through how all sensations are in equal footing Once you're not attached One club once one cluster of sensation isn't hijacking other cluster of sensations all Sensations appear exactly where they are as it is. Okay. I have a question Would this Would this be like Today, I'll go through this example and then we'll go to the net and I Canemity, okay, would this be this I feel like this is gonna funnel perfectly into this example today the the trash service came and the Other tenants in the building had been emptying some food and drink and whatnot into the bin So it had created a very big stench over the week So I'm bringing the trash bin back after it's already been emptied by the Carbis truck I'm bringing it back to the house and I'm realizing that I'm gonna be washing The bin out and as I'm washing the bin out I realize that washing the dirty Garbage bin that smells rancid is the exact same made of the same empty in full Infinitude as having sex or drinking tea or watching hummingbirds. Yeah, okay It's just how everything is just made up of how scientists will tell you everything's made of atoms You know your God experience is made of atoms. So is your your poop, right? And sensation is just observing and realizing this at the experiential and the subjective level So you don't cling on to any particular state The ego state the ego state is just thinking that all one cluster of sensation is more real more solidified because you haven't seen through it That's contraction if the state of awareness Becomes this new cluster of sensations that you Get solidified then that's also just another degree It's another degree that's transcended from the ego state But if if there's any preference over any Cluster of sensations in your field of experience, then you cannot enter a state of perfect equanimity. That's it That's it when there is no identification with anything at all sensations can just appear by spontaneously Simultaneously, they're all codependent rising and they just appear as they are spontaneous dependent origination without a contracted Conditioned separate self to have preferences Right, right and this preference could be ice cream or infinite consciousness Yes, and attachment to those preferences which then creates the craving aversion suffering. Yeah. Yeah That's pretty much what the natural state is. Okay beautiful So let's have you continue defining this for us like we're here when in the dock So we kind of talked about this permanent cessation while conscious Okay, well we'll go to the other state of consciousness. So another way to get this is that everything before the natural state, which is what's always been the case is an Outer state of consciousness the egoic state is an outer state of consciousness is insanity psychotic You think your thoughts are real. I think you're a separate person. That's an outer state Let's take a moment to seriously Make sure that this is being understood because this is basically Reversing the entire paradigm of the world on its head So it's basically saying that the ego or separation and all the conditioning and attachments of the that contracted energy entity That is the altered state That is the altered state of consciousness is believing that I am a separate Finite physical entity in a world full of other separate finite physical entities That's the altered state and then that's a really big paradigm shift. Okay Well, I mean moving from that to The outer state of mystical experiences. Let's say you're you know your life now You took psychedelics now you think holy shit. This is so much more real But that's also an altered state and we go to meditation. We should experience genres and kind of linear awakenings Even you know merging with God divine union cosmic bliss all the stuff you read about spirituality From the perspective of the ego say that is much more true and much more spacious and much more relaxed state and unaltered yes, but No, that's still an altered state of consciousness. Yes. It's more unaltered. Yes. It's a little bit more out there Yeah They're both out there state of it's giving you a taste of the unaltered which is then what gives you the North Star in the roadmap Yeah, right. So after you Disidentified for all the other state of consciousness and slip into the natural state. That's the unaltered state of consciousness. That's total sanity Because clean on to universal mind or the individual mind is the same thing From the unaltered state of perfect equanimity where all sensations are equal footing you look at your past levels of identification to realize that attachment to The solidity of the ego versus the attachment to the solidity of mystical experiences are actually the same thing they both Create cleanings and something that's why the Buddha said that not only do you have to let go of the material realm the form realm You have to let go of the formless realms It's to go experiences, but but I will go ahead I just I just wanted to briefly say that just to put a little flag in it Just that it is still really important as people are stuck in Physicalism to point people towards the formless to towards conscious. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's why the stages are there You just there's some people that just jump from my stage one to five. They fucking go insane man I do But here's the thing is a point that's very important see the people who hasn't Experienced the non-experience of our true nature when they only have the egoic state in the mystical experiences to compare the experiences with They're always going to be confused. They're always going to think that on the Outer state of mystical experiences the God consciousness on psychedelics or meditation or spontaneous glimpses Temporarily transcending the self they're always going to think that's enlightenment Yeah, yeah, I was gonna confuse that with enlightenment because they have they've only got the two outer states to compare it from of course That the mystical experience is all the unity constant. Yes. Yes It's gonna be more enlightened than the ego. Yes. There's more to this identify Yeah, so that's why I didn't go with taches to the mystical experiences and says this is it Yeah, and before you have a realization which is that the the lock enough the true nature It's in it's really really difficult to see this because I've been trying to tell people the difference between mystical experiences Which is the temporarily? transcendence of the self which the self always comes back because it's not realization yet versus the prominent drop in a way of the self with Difference there. Yeah, it hasn't had if you haven't had a realization and realization can only Like a natural you there's no realization on a psychedelic trip on your heart I mean, maybe there is but like it's so filtered you can't extract it right, so And I keep trying to tell people that you there is a difference between a realization and an experience Between dropping away of the center permanently versus just simply transcending the self because when you still have a center in the head No matter how crazy this experience is it's still gonna be filtered through whatever Solidity that's in the head if you're in the beginning of the path of Solidity is your entire body mind Once you get to the very end of the path of Solidity could be this tiny little atom Somewhere like in the head somewhere Yeah, we're going to get in the way of infinity closing in on itself into this figure a loop 99% and 100% is quantum. It's a different order together. Yeah, oh Oh Man, it's just so much of like a relief So, so what is what is wisdom? What is insight and wisdom? If I if I may if I may read the I'll pull it up for people and For people that are getting kind of confused and scared I'll just remind you one thing wisdom is not something you accumulate with the mind or something You read in spiritual books wisdom is taking away all the falsehood Until you left with what is now we talk about a lot of crazy ships like you know Oh, your awareness is going from 720 to 1080 to 4k to 360 8k. You're like, what the fuck? How do I get that? Well, let me ask you is reality Paranormal panoramic and 360 if so, then that's what you are. It's always been the case It's always been the case does the universe have a center point It's not that you don't have a center because you're the universe. It's very simple and this is the sentence Relief of being literally nobody well go look at that That is something yeah Relief of being literally nobody that is when you're dropping into this Emptiness you're dropping into this no-self. You're dropping into slowly into this nady state You're just kind of dropping in easefully and it's just this relief of not needing to be anyone a relief of knowing that you're nothing along with everything and that you can just peacefully relax all of the contracted conditioning that you built up over the years of wanting to Be seen as an individual wanting to be seen as a somebody Although we are still that spark of the infinite like we mentioned But all of that contracted energy that built up around all of the conditioning from your childhood and all of the things of wanting to Impress other people and to have all of this money and success and fame and oh if I just Or being a spiritual cunt just exactly especially that one has been so important for me recently To be practicing that one more and more of just letting go of needing to be seen as a spiritual cunt Seriously, so the relief of being literally nobody The ultimate attainment is not attainment The Vanna is the last layer of the dream the bra the brahman Once you get so deep you become brahman That's the last layer of the dream because so deep you're like coming shit man. This is a problem everything's brahman, but even that If you decide anything from ultimate attainment is non attainment But this is when you have to reflectivity if you switch lenses. Okay, my Monday. I'm gonna use the empty this lens I'm gonna go. I'm gonna have a tinder day and this tinder day is a Buddhist. Oh, I'm gonna put on the empty list And this girl is she studied Hinduism you put a lot of brahman lens you're like everything's unified mind Okay, we just we just mentioned this one the relief of being literally nobody which is great the dying into the ordinary Oh, we haven't mentioned that one. Yeah That one's so important really I can only relate to that one from a direct experience where You're literally it's like it's kind of like being a permanent aftertrip Except it's deeper than that because in the natural state. There's neither an experience. Don't mind, right? So it's even deeper than my friends, but it's very similar to beyond asset all the time where you look at anything at all You just see the entire universe in there. You don't see infinite like zooms. You just you just it's just timeless It's just I don't know you can just like you know how you're a little kid and just in a in a sandbox You just like playing with sand playing with leaves Just you know looking at bullshit and then there's just no time you don't have to go anywhere And that's that's your moment to moment experience in a natural state. Yeah, and What I remember When I was shifted into the state when I was still kind of dissolving When I read that I Was like holy shit This is exactly what it feels like because it literally feels like you're you're every moment it's like disjointed right and each moment you're being reborn and being reincarnated and each moment when you look at like I was Swiping my I was wiping my ass and then I was like looking at my poop And I could I feel like just my sense of self just come even the last pack of it Just completely dying into the into the toilet paper and there's nothing but the toilet paper You know I mean and then but then as long as I moved the toilet, but there's another a new dimension and And you kind of look at this a little bit we literally every moment It feels like you're really dying into this disjointed frame and then after a while it just becomes more stabilized and Once you're all dead, you don't feel like you're dying anymore. Yeah I Understand the duality Distance between life and death gosh and don't fear this process of dying know that it's a natural part of the spiritual awakening and That it's only going to make you an even better Steward and shepherd of the reality awakening to its nature. It'll only make you more Pure in the process. Yeah. Yeah, well spiritual speaking of the process again There are two major shifts on the spiritual path One is the move from ego to being the move from ego to awareness or consciousness or God all that's being stuff The second move which is that that's that's painful. That's dying for a lot of people. That's you know That's littered death. Right. That's very difficult dark nights dark nights after dark nights The second stage sorry the second phase the second shift from being Existence from infinity to non-being to nothingness that hurts even more because you letting go of even God Yeah, that hurts even more because you're letting go this of infinite feel that you thought to be you you have to decide That hurts even more That's why most people don't make it that far as I always say that waking up or dissolving the ego is Awakening dissolving even God is the natural state Yeah Yeah Now I'm not making a claim about the ontological existence of God or not. Oh, that's completely. Yeah Yeah, we're not you could you could if you were just using the word God to reference the highest or the absolute You could just use it to reference the coin that we've been talking about. Yeah, which is that one side is emptiness The other side's infinity. Yeah, that's why this picture there because in a natural state You can call yourself a monkey or a God or human be your table. Whatever doesn't matter like you go Sorry, the difference is during that during the God face. I can feel my ego Popping up when I look at the word God or when I communicate with another spirit you con and we're talking about God Realization I could feel my ego popping up. This is because we associated the word God with the capital S self This is why versus if you Also were to associate God with emptiness Or with no self or with DOW or the natty state then you could say that this is God The shame of the coin of emptiness and infinity with the you could say consciousness or awareness as this primary Attribute of the power to know Yeah So so in the natural state you could when I say I'm God or I'm awareness or a monkey or I'm pranking It makes absolutely no difference. There's no trigger There's no preference. There's no contraction of any of these there it is. Yeah, well, that's the only difference really But it's all the same the difference the contraction identification. Yes That's it. Yes, yeah, so we're not moving any stages Okay, the disappearing into the dark light of the absolute you said this was a Nisargata the Maharaj phrase. Yeah, I just shan't also use the dark light to describe no self Because like we said before it's almost the combination of infinity versus nothingness. Yeah, so it's both dark and light Beautiful disappearing and dying into the actual ordinary while manifesting this infinite consciousness and field of experience Perfect, then let's do life fucking itself and closing the infinity loop Well, closing the infinity loop is just the point of making about how if there's still a solidity in the body Mario anywhere in the field of experience Infinity cannot fully comprehend itself through. Yes. Yes You know how was that the logo or the animation of Of the figure eight or the snake cosmic state fighting or boros. Yes Yes, it's only infinity like this, right? If there's a speck in there, it won't close It won't close. Yeah, so even that little bit of Even if it's at the level of Even if you've popped beyond the egoic separation conditioning to even awareness or No consciousness of consciousness It's such even if even if you're there that Even if you've started to taste a little bit of infinity and emptiness and when I if you've tasted it You'll still have these bits of the separate self that are there And this is what you're referencing perpetually, which is the difference between getting to the point of sort of like 99% Dissolving that all the way down to that Yeah Yeah, that's the difference between you as a separate entity having an experience of awareness consciousness or the divine Versus just reality being itself It's not a separate entity having the realization of the divine, but it's life Recognizing the divine. Yeah, just like being itself life being itself Yeah, say anything about, you know, this process is saying too much even say infinity penetrating itself Eternity gazing back itself. It's saying a little bit too much. Okay. Yeah cool That that we just covered that as well and that's the difference between that You know how people get into the latest stages of John as they did they do get into infinite consciousness But the teacher would tell them hey, you still stuck in the golden chain of their phone was wrong because they're experiencing infinite consciousness as a meditator Solution of the meditator where this Yeah So rather than having the experience of the divine as a separate entity it's life itself. Just that's it That's again is a difference between transcendence of the self Which is the quick glimpse and this glimpse for months or five seconds versus the prominent drop in the way of the self Yeah Beautiful and life fucking itself also is deeply at play with dependent origination as well That it collapses the witness the witnessing and the witnessed in one and that's what this unit locality Yeah So dependent region is very interesting because it's basically the notion that everything's interconnected everything's Interpenetrated everything is you know codependent rising, right? So without a you there, they won't be a me here And we're all connected to infinite webs of condition and And the reason why the dependent origination is never talked about It's because without realizing emptiness and no self you cannot perceive the dependent origination in real time and then Without perceiving dependent origination in real time, you're always going to be standing on the ground for example The move from ego to consciousness is Understanding that the self the thinker the ego is just another thought Right before you used to think that the Frank Yang is the thinker and this thing is talking about thoughts But then after stream entry you realize that this Frank and character this avatar is just another thought no different from any other thoughts It's not the generator of thoughts. It's not the creator of thoughts Not the thinker of thought is in itself. It's just another thought that's empty with no one behind it Popping in and out of nothing No different from any other thought that stream entry to move from stream entry to the later stages You have to apply that process of self inquiry into the big self into even the God mind now if dependent origination is true in consciousness or The ground of being whatever ground of being that you identify yourself with your that's God mind or Brahman That's also dependent originating Because consciousness is the result of the dependent origination between the observer perception The object of perception it's been all kinds of stuff to be able to you know generate this experience of consciousness totally a lot of people staying on the ground of consciousness because they don't understand dependent origination and then again That's very easy way easy to identify or just drop them directly into the dream analogy when you when you dream at night everything is dependently originating on everything else although there is a Point of in the sense you're viewing it as the In the sense the power to know in the dream from a specific spot itself You the tree is the same thing as the power to know the other person is the same thing as the power to know It's all in the life fucking itself the dream fucking itself Dependent origination that there there's no separation between anything of that substrate. It's all just one homogenous dream The the there's no here in existence to any particular object either that's consciousness or a Basketball a basketball is a no thing The only reason the basketball is a thing is because it's depending on the color of the leather the leather itself the game of basketball This you know the roundness of the ball right in the person playing it all those different factors have to come together it gives rise to a Basketball without all those different, you know webs of condition is there won't be a basketball You can apply that to any objects in the universe. I see so the thousands of years of webs of conditioning around The idea of being a human being for example is like the most important one that gets blown out and once the Dependent origination of all the webs that have been structured for thousands of years of being a human being gets blown out That's when there's this no mind no self That gets you can just look at whatever it's arising right now Anything you can see right now is depending on rising. Yeah Everything just like this meets with the eye the nose the hair The screen everything is just dependent rising through each other and this is where you really Construct the ground. Yeah, and see that even consciousness eat. Okay. Here's the point The people that think consciousness is the ground of being It's very easy to deconstruct that Have you ever had a dreamless sleep in your life if you had the consciousness is not permanent For something to be permanently and ultimately true It has to be the case for every single plane on the planet throughout entire history of civilization Afterwards and beyond now if you grandmother had a dream asleep last night then consciousness is not the ground of being And that's typically why they call it shunya or emptiness. Yeah. Yeah, because nothing has any here in existence Right not even consciousness And if you you'll train your mind to have successions or fruition's When you consciously make consciousness disappear and then reappear and see how those different sensations. Yes. Yes You construct and deconstruct moment-to-moment. You see that consciousness is not permanent If it's not permanent, you cannot be the ground of being the only thing that's permanent The only ground you can say is impermanence Because everything is permanent. The only permanent is impermanence. Yeah. Yeah So consciousness or awareness or the power to know can be potentially Reference to as the first attribute like the way that we can perceive reality Actually, we could do I feel like dependent origination should be a conversation that we have In exploration because this is a much like later stage understanding that I think is like it collapses everything into unilocality It's just like those notes Have you seen those picture of this like a circle where every point is connected to any other point But it's also every point is also connected itself That's pretty much what dependent origination is and without okay. So so in a sense is also like what in mathematics we look at things like graph theory and we look at all these different Vertices and edges and so everything is vertices and edges everything is those relationships Yeah, there's no nose. There's only that there's only vertices But then see even dependent origination in the natural state is don't but but don't you What you say that you're like mind-body-spirit complex in the dream is itself could be called a node Even though it's creating an illusory. It's creating an illusory box It's still so so there's all these different layers where we could say that it's a node. Okay, okay Yeah, even even the fact that you let's let's say, okay We're talking about you using the dream as a metaphor or everything in the dream is dependent rising But you can even take the whole level of the dream scape and said dream is dependent rising through reality Yeah, yeah, cool And then that's another note right there, right? And then you start to see that all the night a dream. No reality is the ground of being That's how you start to construct reality into Unilocality through the the inside of different origination Yeah, but but but here's the thing though is a natural state of independent origination doesn't exist So what so then what yeah, so keep unpack that for us. Why why not? Because well after you have very deep deep inside of dependent origination The most I can say about dependent origination operating through your real time is that if you're free because when you walk It's just a universe walking And you eat is just universe eating in every part within this hall is Doing its best to make Every particular thought every little action perfect. Yes So but at this stage, you don't think about it in the middle stages You contemplate on a dependent origination in meditation. You're like, huh, how does this thing to that? This concept, okay Even that and it's just in body experience of perfect, so so it would be something like when you When you eat a little handful of blueberries That it's life the universe eating blueberries not You know, not this identified unit itself You can say that it's a you can say that it is um its own mind-body spear accomplice You can say that but you've gone past the stage of separation So you're the universe or life eating blueberries, but in order for that to have happened There had to have been this whole entire process of Hundreds of years of learning how to perpetually grow blueberries and specific climates and having the modern-day farmer go through the process of Growing it and then shipping it to you going and earning the money to be able to purchase it bringing it back having a first restored and eat it Taste it poop it out later. Have that go through the water sanitation process But you don't think about that the whole time you're just in The infinite possibility space of now Yeah, you don't think about that you can if you want sometimes those thoughts do pop in my head about that's amazing But it's not something you consciously contemplate anymore Yeah, just if you look at a blueberry We what makes the blue very tasty and what makes you appear blue is you know all those different mechanisms in your nervous system Plus the texture of the blueberry plus everything I you said Right plus the location of the tree over there. That's why I'm sitting over here There's just too many infinite notes to construct, but that's the point. That's the point There's no sense into anything that nothing is causing another thing everything is codependent rising spontaneously Perfect. Yeah, perfect codependent arising spontaneously aka rickba Divinity recognizing itself This is the sort of the last one that we kind of talked about this versus the separate self-perceiving divinity We talked about this. Okay, cool. And then we didn't get to Ramanus quote yet We mentioned them a little bit, but the quote goes the world is illusion Brahman alone is real The world is Brahman So this closes the loop on on duality pretty much. Yeah, so with this little quote If you truly realize I understand this quote There's no illusion. There's no world. There's no Brahman all those different distinctions avoid. Yes That's it. That's it. So it's not like at the end the word is Brahman. That's just too much you can use Maya to describe the illusion and the intoxication of the separate entity trying to get peace and happiness from it You can use the process of calling the the world Transient and therefore less real than the empty infinitude and that You can do that process. It's helpful But in the ultimate the world is Brahman closes the loop to say that there is absolutely no Distinction to be mean between Brahman and the world Yes So the the world's illusion is kind of like jumping from ego to stream entry and then you start to identify with you know God and Brahman you're like only Brahman is real. I am Brahman. I am God. They realize the world is Brahman You realize some some sour is Nirvana. You let go even the entire paradigm of spirituality Yes, just and world and this is why in the Neo Advaita Direct pointings that they're just saying that this is the absolute Yes, of course. Yeah, this is right here. Absolutely. This is the only thing I can say about the absolute. It's like this is a cup Perfect complete absolute normie bra Mm-hmm. Yeah Cool, and we went through these earlier. Let me get let me make one last really important point before it goes to practices Yes There's a there's a trapping that I need to point out Is that with the non duality teacher a lot of teacher will tell you what we're telling you right now that there's nothing to do You're the enlightened everybody's enlightened. There's no such thing as enlightened being because you don't have a self Yeah, sure, that's all true Or if you hear me talk about a natural state and they're like, hey, I'm a normie I'm in a natural state now, right because I've talked to people about a natural state. They're just like, okay I'm in a natural state It's true ultimately but relatively it's not true because that the natural state The natural state all the natural state actually experientially feels very different from they that the natural state from the egoic perspective because you have to be Sensation proof if you're not sensation proof, you're not living in the natural state They're the same sensations, but there is a huge difference also why would anybody go through a spiritual path? Yeah, you've become sensation proof You have the contemplative fitness AI running and so as soon as you see the triggering thing It's immediate. Yes, I mean it emptiness liberated. Yeah. Yeah Perfect. That's that's mission critical Totally agree because people will be like this is the absolute done great And then they'll continue having the fire of samsara running all the time of some some scar as and Vasanas They'll have all of these little sort of ways of attachment and desire and craving happening And they'll keep perpetuating suffering and so eventually even they turn further inward So yeah, I think the two most important indicators of whether or not you're making progress on a spiritual path is Emotional and perceptual. Is there a permanent shift in the reduction of suffering? Yes, education or is there a permanent shift in perception when I talk about moving from like 720 to 1080 to 4k to 368k something like that I will shift in perception if there's a partnership the perception There's gonna be a permanent reduction of suffering too because your perception is being white That's right. That's right. It's not about how much intellectual knowledge of gain or how much you can articulate it How much better you get debating with another spiritual condom about what truth is where we are all that's irrelevant It's like is right now in your moment-to-moment direct experience. How much has your contemplative fitness AI? Been upgraded perfect And so contemplative fitness AI can be broken down into two components one Emotionally how much less do you suffer if at all? And then the second one is that are you how you perceive do you see in a case Do you see the dependent origination? Do you see life? All as just life at play with that. There's no separation between objects you like physically visibly Not just an idea. I was like, oh you put a regeneration. I'm imagining that there's no separation There's a difference there. Yeah, the full collapse of the witness the witnessing and the witness Huge perceptual change on our Irradiation that's why I was like saying that realization is really a kind of a perceptual chip to what is Because when you say realization people tend to confuse it with something intellectual Yeah Perceptual and the emotional eradication of suffering. Yeah, yeah Which plays into that moment-to-moment like you're describing. I like those two those two are definitely what I've also Experienced and also been able to sample this meta pattern of what other people have been Undergoing in their awakenings as those are the key things this absolute nirvana or blown out of suffering and then the other one is this perceptual upgrade to This is empty fullness. Yes. Empty for us exactly the new operating system new OS is Yeah, it's only taking you all that second you are pretty sick. Yeah Recognizing that's why that Sufi metaphysic quote only the ignorant sequence already there yet It remains for you to recognize it. So yet it remains for you to recognize the Natty state To recognize these two things that full blown out suffering no longer Perpetuating misery for yourself and for the world and two is the Perceptual upgrade to see everything as empty fullness. Yeah And then you can fluidly switch between these lenses of perception and sort of help people as they come to you and Also engage with the world across these lenses Yeah, I keep emphasizing that no self is just not a lens Like I'll tell me there's no if you understand sensations There's no difference between no self and self right so some people always after realization of no self always wear the lens of no self and they can't interact with people Sometimes you need to put on the lens of self even though even though after realization the lens of self is also Experienced as no self. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, you can play the role of Frank King and not identify with him There you know where you know, something says shitty about Frank. Oh, he's on he's not Natty, bro And then he gets hurt, right? Yeah So there is a difference between switching on the lens of self so you can interact with other people in a more healthy way versus Not seeing that they're The self and no self are different, right? You know, I mean, it's hard Putting on this that's a percentage of self through the realization of no self is very different from only being stuck with The lens of self of self cool cool And then you were mentioning this, you know The Buddha is the one that has completely gone yet also is the one that is turned towards form in Serving shepherding the awakening And you mentioned that throughout that we have these different Parts of the practices that can be done. I'll I'll just be super These have totally played, you know, we've been mentioning this several times is that atlas has went under a similar path as frank in this process and Not only with vipassana and zhokchen and with entheogens and with self inquiry But also really I had no real idea about this Like really what you what can be done upon specifically when you get to this more popped state of Awareness or consciousness itself that if you sort of just like do nothing and relax as that more and more of this Infinitude and emptiness this empty fullness ends up opening up as you do more of this just Relax for an hour and just Be and as you sort of relax in that I am as you sort of just relax in that you'll sort of have these profound empty full Realizations that will deepen your The realization further and further so that when you go out to the grocery store You're having more of that no self and the capitalist self, you know, you're you're for anybody Will just sort of more easily Be in that in that that he stayed and I really didn't even know that much about this do nothing style Process it's like you literally just On the couch in the living room just You're an easy way to do it is by just noticing the actual space itself Like nobody's looking at this space right now We're we're only looking at the form We're only looking at the form itself this, you know This windscreen on the mic or this atlas and frank unit or this screen that we're watching this on right now but nobody's looking at the space itself between The witness and the witness The witnessing itself or just the space itself and so just in a sense holding that space enables the empty fullness to sort of Blossom from that at least I've noticed that a bit from the do nothing process It's been interesting Yeah, we should talk about oh, yeah the do nothing meditation is All you really have to do is relax the any tensions in your body feel in your body mind If you notice any tension just relax it and awareness will automatically return to itself Yeah, and then there is a subversion of zochen That's kind of like where you talk about where you sort of make the emptiness into form Where you kind of perceive the the emptiness All form in the form of emptiness. So you actually try to like draw out emptiness because first you penetrate form as emptiness and then You make the form out of emptiness and until they merge this one So I went this as well. So you kind of just like realize the space between objects and you make the emptiness into like a thing So you can see that their formal entries are identical. That's that's a really fun practice Yeah, I like how you describe it as simple as also just relaxing and then just watching those tensions just Dissolved and then you just recognize that this is it like welcome to the absolute just pure not attached to any separate self-identity needing to do This or that just you'll like it's literally as simple also as like When you go to like the fridge notice you like you walk to the fridge completely aware You know yet utterly ineffably transcended walking to the fridge You like, you know, you're following the script of opening the door to the fridge and looking inside But then all of a sudden you go And you just pivot your attention away from the action of what you were doing And for that moment you're just realized that full empty fullness again And then you're back into the physical action of what you were doing at the fridge It's almost like you can take a moment like you're walking And then you just stop like literally in the middle of the sidewalk Just a full 100 stop And just and feeling into that empty fullness while you were doing the script of walking You pause yourself fully full stop Stop describing stop symbolizing stop anything and just Allow relax into that empty fullness and then You go back onto the walk and then eventually the walk becomes the empty fullness as well And so they don't become two things But at least to start it's really good to sort of like pause yourself repeatedly Like do this style of pausing and realizing perpetually until it becomes Your moment to moment experience Yeah Cool All right, that's that was a two-hour absolute normie. Fuck yeah Well, we gotta talk about self-inquiry really quick Let's do it Because we talk about the passion out with the sensation power. We talk about the do not the meditation to access Um infant awareness But we have to talk about self-inquiry because I think that's actually the most effective way to get to Yes, yet both of us have made plenty of content also on the specific topic itself. But yes, let's do it anyway Oh, we talked about it before Well, you and I have both made content about this Oh, okay. Well, let's do it fast. Yeah, yeah, so basically self-inquiry is just to Objectify everything until there's no subject So whatever you can perceive look at Observe experience you can objectify So if you go through all the stages at first you objectify the ego Then then you start to objectify the mind and consciousness and awareness and everything And you objectify even this sense of no self you objectify even emptiness Because if there's an exterior it's still an experience there you can still objectify once you objectify everything Then there's no room for the subject and there's no room for the subject. This is very tricky. It's not like this subject is It's not nothingness either because that's still something That's it I won't go too deep because we talked about this before you reminded me so Another just sort of simple way is just asking who or what am I? And then you can sort of if you if you really like Bentino has been really adamant about just getting people to go that I am god Just go all the way up to the absolute go all the way there first And then see yourself the way that god sees you see yourself the way that the absolute sees See yourself the way that life sees itself and stop seeing yourself as a separate finite contracted entity trying to extract For your peace happiness and safety and whatnot And so if you do that process of who or what am I you can sort of jump up to that level And then like fight off all of the person's separate conditioning Which I've also found to be really just like fast rapid Stop taking 40 years Just fucking you know six months a year like we're gonna power through this much faster Moving forward for but but then here's the thing though Even abiding in the absolute or god, there's a Another step to disidentify from even that so I think that point is very important because I think a lot of people missed that point Is when you when you when you observe or observer when you witness the witness You're going to run to a wall or when you start to identify with the godhead you're looking at the world as the absolute Before you completely dissolve you can still disappear into the absolute Disappear into the observer Where the observer the observed in an observing role into one So I think that little step right there like the certification of even Infinity so you can disappear into infinity instead of being still a very subtle form of duality emerging Where you still have to identify is a very foreign Yeah, cool Cool. So let's wrap um There's a bunch of comments. I love you all frank loves you all we're super grateful for you. Thank you everyone for tuning in Fuck yeah, fuck. Yeah, fam Absolute normie fam. Fuck. Yeah infinite bra eternal bra Middleway bra absolute normie bra. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you Be as you guessed it. Yeah, I got this down boom And We have your questions that you've lined up for the AMA. We're going to get to that also Um, so stay tuned that will also be another separate episode So thanks for submitting all your questions there. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below on the episode Check out frank's links in the bio below to his youtube channel and his instagram He's constantly posting really good stories for you to check out That detail more of this out in in depth also his youtube videos have been very profoundly Awakening to many of us so go and check those out especially his most recent distillations have been great He's just published two very powerful recent videos and subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet subscribe to frank's channel if you haven't yet And share the video with people that you feel like this would powerfully resonate with and like the video as well and That is all I'm reading the comments. They're live Yeah, we've been getting some live comments. All right much love everyone Much love everybody Well, it's all wait the q&a is not we're not going to do we're going to do it on the other on the second episode Yeah, okay, so we're going to record right now, right? We're going to end right now much love bye everyone Bye