 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean, a popular resistance broadcast of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Black Alliance for Peace, Haiti America's team, Code Pink, Common Frontiers, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, Friends of Latin America, Interreligious Task Force on Central America, Massachusetts Peace Action, and Task Force on the Americas, we broadcast Thursdays at 4.30 p.m. Pacific, 7.30 p.m. Eastern, right here on YouTube Live, including channels for Code Pink, the Convo Couch, and popular resistance. Post broadcast recordings can be found at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Telegram, radindymedia.com, and now under podcasts at popularresistance.org. Today's episode, Bottom all in political crisis. June 25 elections are set as critic slam disqualifications. So everyone, I'm really, really pleased we have someone from Guadalupe's family is from Guatemala and who works in the Guatemalan solidarity movement. I want to introduce you to Frank with the network and solidarity with the people of Guatemala. Nisqua, many of you may be familiar with, N-I-S-G-U-A. And we're going to talk about what is unfolding in Guatemala regarding this year's presidential elections. It's a really important story. And I'm so happy that Frank has time for us today to put the spotlight on Guatemala. I know for some of you, we do not talk about Guatemala enough. So I'm very thankful, Frank, for this time with you. And we're going to give all of you some historical context and then talk about how the election process is unfolding for the June 25 elections. But before I have you meet Frank, let me give just a little background for all of you. So campaigning for the presidential elections began last month for Guatemala's general elections with political messaging filling the streets, local broadcasts and social media. But less than three months before the June 25 vote, concerns are mounting among national and international observers over the integrity of the process. At least 30 political parties are set to contest the upcoming elections with more than 22,000 candidates registered to run for the presidency, Congress, regional parliament and councils across the country. But Guatemala's supreme electoral tribunal, which governs elections, has blocked several opposition candidates from running on, quote unquote, dubious grounds. So we're going to talk about these upcoming elections. But I want you to meet Frank and he has a fabulous presentation he's going to share with all of you so that we all get a better understanding of the political context that has created some of the issues involved with the June 25 election. So welcome, Frank. Thank you, Terry. It's really great to be here. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad you had time for us today. This is such an important subject and you have such great information to share with us. Perfect. Thank you. So should I take it away? Yes, please. Go right ahead. Floor's yours. Thank you. So the first thing I'll say is Niswa, just to give a little context also of the work we do, we're a 40 plus year solidarity organization in the United States, who since the early 80s have been accompanying different people's movements, really defined and determined by the needs and the requests of the people who are organizing on the ground and on the front lines in Guatemala. So that has brought us into close collaboration over many decades with folks who are migrating, folks who are returning, folks who are part of social movements, folks who are defending their land against extractive industries and folks who are involved in transitional justice cases in the courts, taking a lot of former military members or politicians to trial for crimes against humanity and such. And so that's just really brief overview about Niswa. So Guatemala really is in a political crisis. We are definitely in a situation that is larger than anyone candidate, but this exclusion of candidates in this time, during this election season, has really turned international eyes onto Guatemala. So we're really happy to be able to talk about why this is so important, not only to Guatemala, but really to social movements and social and political movements across the region. And in some ways, I hope that we can touch about the ways that this is really connected to these global shifting political dynamics and geopolitical dynamics that are happening as the world shifts into multi-polarity. And so a lot of folks don't usually think of Guatemala in that sense because geographically we're a small country, demographically we're a small country, but I hope we can touch on some of that as we discuss what's happening. Oh no, please let's do because our audience is really, really familiar with the importance of social movement building and the need for new governmental administrations to have that power from the people below them to implement there. And also this multi-polarity that's emerging principally in the global South, but South of the U.S. border principally. Not to, it doesn't really go out of mouth. There are many Souths within the global North, right? But we're working together too. I know we've discussed this in the past, build those movements also within the global North to build that solidarity and that strength together. So let me start, I'll share my screen and then I'll just kind of give some broad historical contexts to bring us to the present. And this will be a very short history as they say, but I'll name specific things like history of colonization and of independence in Guatemala. You'll see how they're directly tied to what's happening now because really the history of colonization starting from 500 years ago is something that particularly indigenous movements in Guatemala continue naming as something that is just ongoing. Colonization did not end in 1821 when the independence was formally signed and Spain was officially kicked out of the country as they say, but really it was descendants of the Europeans who had in the 250 or so years of actual formal colonization, consolidated a lot of the land, consolidated a lot of the wealth and exploited a lot of the labor force, particularly of indigenous people who had been racialized in that country. And these were the leaders of independence, right? This is a story as familiar probably to many people across the region and across the continents because it's something that happened this way in many countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. In Guatemala, one thing that's very unique with just a few other countries, but I know this does happen in other countries is that it is possible and there is research about this to trace some of the current wealthiest and most politically and economically influential families in the country to trace their lineages, both genealogically as well as politically all the way back to the times of colonization and independence. So in Guatemala, there are still, some people say it's nine, some people say it's 12, some say it's 15 families in Guatemala who really own extremely large amounts of the wealth and exploited labor in the country. And in a country that has approximately 45 to 50% indigenous people and the majority of those are working in urban, sorry, in rural areas in the fields and mega projects in the farming and agriculture industries that is then being exported north. This- And the mega projects being like infrastructure, make it infer like dams and things when you say mega projects. And I'll get more into that but definitely there's a lot of hydroelectric dams, mining and also a lot of large agribusiness. Palm oil is huge. And then there's also a lot of banana plantations, coffee plantations. I mean, the word that I used, right? That's traditional. That says a lot. The fact that that's still the word that we use today. I think it adds to the point of indigenous movements who say we are still living an ongoing colonial process. So that's this kind of brief history that is bringing us closer to a time that then now I'll bring you to the 1944 when the first democratically elected president and what the mala was elected by the people. Many folks probably on your program have heard his name, Hako Arvind Guzmang. He was a leader who was talking about redistributing unused land that was privately owned. He was talking about paying companies back fairly for redistributing this unused land to the people. And yet in 1944 to 1954, the context of the region and the globe was getting hotter and hotter and hotter. And one of the biggest companies that was having their land and water in was the United Recovery Company. Today known as Chiquita. May all eat banana Chiquita if you're in the United States. This company had board members who had direct family ties to the CIA. And so you can see in this picture down in the middle, you can see one of the Dulles brothers with President Eisenhower, who are the people in the CIA and obviously in the presidency who then helped coordinate a coup against Hako Arvind's, who the coup was happily supported by the economic elites and political elites in Guatemala who were having their interests threatened by land redistribution programs, widespread social programs that were actually promoting health, education, housing and a lot of the basic needs that would really make for a strong democratic society that is protecting human rights of the people. But again, like I said, the globe was heating up in the moment. This, the narrative that was constructed by the CIA, by the state departments and by all the different interests in Guatemala was that this was a communist takeover. That this was USSR, getting involved in Guatemala. And so the coup was coordinated and that unleashed what became a 36 year internal armed conflict is what it's called in Guatemala which really was a civil war in many ways where dictator after dictator was supported by the United States to be able to continue privatizing different parts of the country and protecting the interests of the global elites, particularly in the United States, but also in Guatemala. And as always happens, the people who are being impacted and suffering from this started organizing and what they started organizing into was to into revolutionary forces, the way that was happening all across the country because that's what people do when they don't have land, when they don't have food, when they don't have housing, when they don't have education and everything including their dignity is stripped from them. People organize and people fight back. That's just basic math, right? And so that happened, but that obviously led the states to immense repression which led to over these 36 years up to 1996, approximately 200,000 assassinations and murders and 40,000 disappearances. So a story very similar to other parts of the region. I know folks in Chile and Argentina might resonate a lot with this story. I'm sure many other parts of the region. So here on the right, you can see an image of a declassified government documents of how the state was registering the personal information along with images of people that they suspected were involved in communist and so-called communist activity, right? That's what they named anyone who was, you know. That's the label. Today it's terrorist. Exactly, today it's terrorist. Oh, and you'll hear about that in Guatemala. So that's the broad context, right? And so we reached the peace accords in 1996 after many years of brokering peace. The official peace is declared and a democratic transition process begins as it's called across the region. And 1996 happens. The president at the time is Alvaro Arsou who the Arsou family is part of these, one of these 12 to 15 mega families in Guatemala. He's the president. His family has ties to a lot of large industries in Guatemala. And he is a fan, let's put it that way, of the Reagan-Thatcher era policies, particularly economic policies. And so once the peace is signed, it becomes economic open season in Guatemala. And industry after industry starts being privatized large swaths of lands are being sold off, mines, hydroelectric dams, agribusiness like I told you starts growing in a privately owned way across the country. And all of this exacerbates the already existing crisis of forced migration in the country, which was happening because of the war in the 70s and the 80s, but then people start having their land stolen. People are trying to return at times from the United States or Mexico to their land. And there are documented stories of families who literally returned to their land just to find that it has been sold and that they're told that they can't resettle where they had lived before that and their family had lived for generations because now it's owned by a company. And so they have to find somewhere else to live. And as people would try and settle, they would be displaced by police. They would be displaced again by the military. Now in the name of private enterprise, of private ownership and of development, which is ultimately in Guatemala as in many places across Latin America and the Caribbean, an ideology that is now used to promote all sorts of violence, repression against ordinary people in their land. And so forced migration continues to this day. But here's the thing. This has also led in this post-1996 era to two major fronts of struggle in Guatemala. Transitional justice and territorial defense. Transitional justice has meant particularly like in the starting in the 2000s into this very day, organized groups of people who are victims and survivors and family members of victims of the war and of the crimes of the war that were primarily committed by the states and its military apparatus. The victims and the survivors are taking them to trial. And they're actually like organizing themselves to find justice. And I actually, I wanted to share a quote of one of Nisua's partners in Guatemala, which is the Association for Justice and Reconciliation. This is an organization of dozens of indigenous communities across Guatemala who have organized in order to take folks to trial, including a former dictator, Rios Mont, who in the early 80s was, sorry, in the early 80s was the president of Guatemala. And in his dictatorship of about a year and a half, he committed some of the worst crimes against humanity. And two weeks from now, we'll be remembering the 10 year anniversary of his conviction for genocide in the Guatemalan courts. It's a conviction that we could talk another time the way that it was overturned because of the pressure of the economic elites. But the fact of the matter is, all the people in Guatemala who know that there was genocide were able to remember and we remember that he was convicted within our courts. And that was a huge leap towards justice in this transitional justice phase. So the association for... There's a film, if I can just interject for you. There's a film, I think it's called 300 years, 300 years? 500 years of resistance. And that might be the one you're speaking of. Yeah, I'm thinking 300, but maybe it's... And it focuses on... Yes. On the Rios Mont trial. Yes, yes, it does. I believe it's skylight productions. I believe it's skylight productions. And I don't know if they currently have it for free, but I know for a fact that skylight productions is releasing a few clips of the time they were there in Guatemala 10 years ago right now, because we're at the 10 year anniversary. On May 13th is the 10 year anniversary of his sentence and his conviction for genocide, which is the first and only time in the region where a former dictator has been convicted in the internal courts of a country for genocide. And so it was a huge win. And the association for justice and reconciliation led, along with many other organizations from human rights, indigenous, they led this process. And right now I have a quote here that I wanted to share from them that they asked that we share out loud here at WTF, which is... Oh, great. They say the conflict, the official conflict of war and military repression from the 80s has left us. But they said, but that pain will never go away nor fully heal if there is no justice, no democracy and no space for us to claim our rights. And so that's what they continue trying to do. And so that's one of these major fronts of struggle right now. Then territorial defense is another one, which is very similar to the entire region. I know that Code Pink and WTF and many others have had partnerships with folks in different regions who are doing defensive land, defensive water, against extractive industries. And so that is something that is happening all across this region, right? And in Guatemala, there are many, there are dozens of companies that are trying to get their permits signed to start mining projects. Many of them are actually in operation, but many of them are also shut down right now because of different struggles. Like for example, the Escobar Mine, which is owned by Pan American Silver, which is a Canadian US based multinational. They are actually currently shut down because of a peaceful resistance that the people have led against them. And they have maintained a 24 hour resistance blockade that has made it impossible for the mine to operate because the mine had completely started to displace. The people was blowing up pieces of land that are sacred to the people. And so this is another major front of struggle, right? And then the third one has been particularly over the last 10 years. And this is really gonna start bringing me close to the conversation about the presidential candidates is the struggle against corruption. And so this has been led primarily by a lot of prosecutors and judges who have acted independently, meaning that they haven't let themselves be bullied around by some of the people with links to the crimes of the last century, or by the current politicians who are connected to criminal and corrupt networks. And so some of these judges and prosecutors have been willing to hear the cases, to allow some of these military members to be taken to trial. And so the prosecutors have actually dared to take them to trial and expose the truth and the facts about the matter. What has happened, and this is where I'll go to the next point is extreme repression and over the last particularly six years, an increased co-optation of the state. Because last decade, the UN actually, after a lot of organizing and lobbying by many human rights organizations, the UN started a commission against impunity, is what it was called CICIG, Comisión Internacional Contralo en la Impunidad, which supported by the UN was looking to uncover a lot of these criminal corruption networks to really just weed out a lot of it, to strengthen the states, to strengthen the rule of law and democracy and human rights at a state level. And what happened was the previous president, Jimmy Morales, he and supported right by a wide network of folks on the right, including Cassif, which is the largest business coalition in Guatemala with many of these wealthy families. They managed to expel CICIG through a lot of political and legal pressure. And after that moment started, basically the dominoes started to fall. And from Jimmy Morales to this new president, Alejandro Yamatei, there have been a lot of instances where each branch of the state has been co-opted, which is bringing us again, even closer to what's happening today. So just to name a few examples, the judicial branch had the attorney general removed, who was someone who had been actually allowing these cases to be open and taking a court against former war criminals, against corrupt criminal networks. The attorney general was replaced by this president and the current attorney general, Consuelo Porras, has been accused of corruption, both within Guatemala, but has also been placed on the angles list by the State Department of the US for her ties to corrupt networks. Then a lot of these- And he's prohibiting further investigation of these other, yeah. He's prohibiting further investigation. And one of the things that he is doing and the previous president has done is something very interesting, which I think is the left should pay attention to because this could be a tactic that right-wing movements adopt more and more across the region, which is they have taken the language, the historical language of the left about non-interference, where the left has generally said, in an anti-imperialist stance, said the United States should not interfere in the affairs of the country, because it's a violation of sovereignty. We still say that to this day when the US tries to coup Venezuela or coup Bolivia, right? And now- La Peru. La Peru, thank you. Yes, thank you. And now the right in Guatemala, all the way from the presidency, all the way down to Facebook groups and everything in between, the right in Guatemala is saying the US is trying to interfere in our sovereignty and they're violating our sovereignty. And so anytime a delegation for human rights comes, anytime a delegation of congresspeople comes, the right in Guatemala is saying this is a violation of our sovereignty, anytime a statement from the State Department is made, or anytime a bill is introduced in Congress by allied politicians in the US, this is for an interference. This is something that is violating the sovereignty of the nation and who is allowing them in, it's the human rights groups and the indigenous people in Guatemala. Oh, it's like a complete spin. Complete spin. And so we need to crack down on them, right? Oh, wow. We need to pay attention to this across the region because this could really, really spiral out of control if people pick up on it across the region. And I think the left needs to be ready and we need to think preventatively and not in a reactionary way. Like what would happen if this is a narrative that starts being spun in countries with even more influence in the region? Because Guatemala has some in Central America, but Guatemala is not Colombia, Guatemala is not Argentina, Guatemala is not Brazil or Mexico. But what happens if in those countries this narrative starts being spun? So it's very dangerous, right? It's very... I mean, it's just a complete 180 ship because this is so much what we talk about when we talk about external interference in the US, and not just US, but specifically in places like Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, how the NGOs are used, funded by USAID, NED, and so the progressive... That's an argument from the progressive movement, right? That we're... Yeah. Oh, wow. This... You know, you do hear that in some pockets of the right wing in Venezuela. Oh, interesting. Yeah, what you're saying, but yeah, I think... I don't know how widespread that narrative is across Latin America and the Caribbean, but, wow, that is... But Guatemala, if it's starting in Guatemala, that's a pretty significant country for the right wing to start this narrative. Yeah, wow. And you mentioned NGOs, right? And how we notice that NGOs often operate with USAID or other large institutions from an imperialist sectors. And they collude in order to repress human rights and social movements and political movements, right? It's interesting that you say that because that's a smooth transition into the co-optation of the legislative branch, where Congress in Guatemala has recently passed a law called the NGO law. At least that's what it's popularly known as. The NGO law, which basically it's saying that it is through human rights NGOs. This is how they argued it publicly in the public narrative. It's through human rights NGOs that the... They say the US or Europe are funding some of these extremist people who are out to basically undo and destroy the integrity of the nation, right? And so there's a national... The right wing integrity of the nation. Exactly, the right wing integrity of the nation. The integrity of the country. The interests of the wealthy and the political power of these groups. And so this law is actually going to be... If it's implemented, it hasn't been implemented yet but it's proposing to create a department, a mini-studio, a ministry within the government that would demand, for example, for NGOs to be audited or expect them to be audited to make sure that there's no foreign funding coming in. It would then have ultimate power to be able to disband NGOs that are suspected of being funded by foreign interests, right? So it's this... By left, by center-left foreign interests. Exactly. Yeah, so it's just a complete... A complete space. I mean, it's almost ingenious when you think about it. It's heinous, but it's ingenious in a way, isn't it? Politically. Exactly right. Oh, wow. Here's this total co-optation. And then finally, that these parastates, kind of like organizations that are doing a lot of the narrative work around this in Guatemala, one of the largest ones, at least in influence, is called the Foundation Against Terrorism, La Fundación Contra el Terrorismo. And one of the founders... Yeah, see, I told you terrorism was the new... Exactly. It was the modern trend. I told you, I told you a loopback. It's called the Foundation Against Terrorism. It's officially an NGO itself, and they have two main things that they do, at least in my understanding, right? Is that one is in the legal front. They bring a lot of bogus charges against people, such as these independent judges, prosecutors, and now also against lawyers who have been supporting indigenous social movements in order to really intimidate and harass and interrupt the work that they're doing. Because while the lawyer of a social movement is having to take a step back from their immediate work because they're being charged of abuse of authority with absolutely no evidence, but these corrupt networks are supporting each other to extend the date of their hearings to hold them on extremely high bails. It just disrupts, right? It disrupts what's happening. And so they just continue bringing these bogus charges. And by the time that it's- It's a law fair tool. It's a law fair. Through and through. Yeah, it's a law fair tool, yeah. And so they're using law fair, and they're using it at the grassroots, you could say, and they're using it at the top routes, right? They're going against independent judges. They're going against the lawyers of social movements. And then the second pillar of what they're doing is what the mala is known as net centers. I actually don't know if that's a word that's known in other parts of the region, but net centers, as in like the internet, and their centers where basically they hire, just ordinary people off the street who need a minimum wage job. And they say, here's a minimum salary, sit in this room and just go on Facebook and spread either disinformation or outright harassment and slander against specific targeted people from the left or who are just independently working to be able to give an ear and give a hearing and a fair hearing to some of these trials. And so you- Those are trolls. They're trolls, organized trolls at a large scale. And so they're obviously going against a lot of the people who are on the right. And so it's just this complicated situation that that's where we come into this very moment where a lot of what I just described in these last five minutes has to do, sorry, happened last year and a few years before that, but it happened a lot last year. And then this year, which is election year, the most progressive movements, a political movement that has, what the Mala has known in its recent history is attempting to run for office. And so it's in this- So this is why all that activity happened last year was paving the way to influence, hinder the electoral results this year. Perhaps, you know, that's a great question. I'm not, that's a good question that I think needs to be really unpacked and analyzed. I think that there's, you know, I would say that there's perhaps a broad coalition of right wing forces that have their connections to criminal and corrupt networks who are seeing threats from every angle and they're trying to shut it down wherever they see it. And obviously one of the biggest threats often tends to be a political movement that has a large social backing, a large social movement behind it. But a lot of these, you know, judges, a lot of these prosecutors, even a lot of other social movements in Guatemala haven't necessarily outright come out to say that they are part of the movements of the movement of liberation for the peoples, which is the one that's being repressed right now. And I'll pass the slide so we can start discussing that. But nevertheless, those judges, those prosecutors, other social movements, and now especially this one, they're all being repressed and attacked by the right wing in the country. And so, you know, we come to this moment where Tema Cabrera and Jordán Rodas are two people who come from very different but important to connect spaces in Guatemala. Let me describe what I mean by that. Tema Cabrera, right? Just even just from an identity perspective in a place like Guatemala it matters that she's an indigenous rural woman who is involved in indigenous peasant social movements. With the history of colonization of racism in Guatemala, where the ruling elites of the country and most of the urban population often see indigenous women simply as the people who clean your clothes, the people who sell food on the streets. The fact that this woman has garnered so much support and is actually being noticed at a national and now international level, that's something that's important. And so, Tema Cabrera, it's important to note she ran with the movement for the liberation of the peoples in 2019 and the elections in 2019. And out of 20 plus political parties that were going for office, she came in, she and her party, they came in fourth, actually tied with third, with 10% of the votes across the country. The current president, Yamate, in that same first round, he only came in with 14% of the votes. That's wild. And she is not the first indigenous woman to run for office, but no one has ever come close to that amount of popular support. So that was in 2019. Then now we come to this moment and in December, Tema Cabrera and Jordan Rodas and this picture you can see in the middle, they announced that they're going to be running together. And this is important, why? Because Jordan Rodas is the former human rights ombudsman. I always have a hard time with that word. Human rights ombudsman, right? And he was known for speaking out ardently and passionately against the corruption of the country. He was known for defending publicly journalists who were being criminalized. He was known for standing alongside people who were being politically harassed and exiled from the country, which mind you, I didn't mention this about 20 plus judges and prosecutors are in exile in Washington right now because they had to leave because of the political harassment in the country. And Jordan Rodas was speaking out for them. And now him, he is someone who is from an urban context. He is someone who is mestizo, which in what the mala means someone who is more racially white, might have some European descent, might have some indigenous descent, but it's not really known, and he's a man. And so even just in terms of identity, he's bringing in in terms of experience, she's coming from a social movement background with peasant indigenous people and she's a woman. He's coming from a more institutional but human rights background. He's a man and he's from an urban area. These two polls that have always been put in an opposition in the region, right? We know how this organized urban labor and peasant rural in this region, even just the visual of this, it shook the country. And so this is a background to who they are, but now also it's very important to name that the movement for the liberation of the people is the MLP. They aren't just an independent political party that got formed. They are the political arm of the social movement Coleka, which is the committee for the, I'm thinking of in Spanish, sorry, but the committee- Okay, so let's finish it. The committee for development, for peasant development or farm worker development. Rural development, yeah. Rural development, yeah, you could translate in different ways, which is a social movement which has been growing in the country. It's existed for decades. They've achieved significant reforms in rural areas in the region. And so they created this as a political arm. So they're taking lessons from the region, right? They're taking lessons from other countries like Bolivia or Ecuador or just the name too. There are many more, right? That movement building, it's everything. And so they have a base. A base important and threatening, I believe because Guatemala has a recent history, at least the last 30 years, a very fragmented left, right? Broadly speaking of the left. And that has to do with the intense repression during the time of the war that I spoke of earlier, right? There were 200,000 people assassinated. Many, many, many of those were part of the social movements, part of the revolutionary fronts. And then since then, people have been a lot either on survival mode or trying kind of on a defensive mode, trying to now protect themselves from this criminalization, this political harassment that I was also speaking about. So it's been difficult to move from kind of the local defensive posture of trying to protect yourself from political harassment or from an extractive industry or whatever else it is to really start coordinating something that can put you on the offensive. And so I think Codeca and MLP, many, many analysts and from both social movements and kind of from the outside are having this general agreement that it has to do with this unity that they're starting to construct. Because you and I were talking before we went live that this unity is the byproduct of generations of recovery from the internal conflict because that internal conflict, I mean, who do you trust? You think you have a loyal family member, neighbor, whatever. And so this is something in more recent years, but there's obviously, there's had to be some level of societal recovery of trust amongst citizens to work together because that's a real, and we were saying earlier that that still hasn't happened in Chile after their dictatorship. It's still really hard for people to trust each other. And that's a very good and interesting point because Guatemala does experience that as well. And that lack of trust in each other, it's difficult to trust each other because of what you said exactly. And I'm not going to lie to you, right? That's still something that is hard to this day, right? And like I said with the net centers, there's so much disinformation, there's so much lying. And so it takes a lot of really people-to-people contact to build relationships because that is the true foundation of any transformative movement, right? Like we know that. And so the reality is in Guatemala, this has been one of the most organized, large-scale public facing movements, but there are many others that are also trying to kind of coordinate. But because of the same things that I described earlier with the co-optation of the state and the intense criminalization, it's difficult to coordinate different folks because we are always on the defensive. And so that's part of what the network in solidarity with the people of what the Mala tries to do with the wide networks is just find ways to introduce and connect. And so that folks on the front lines in Guatemala can really be able to build common vision, common purpose, common strategy because I think of a place like Bolivia, right? Where they have, each country is very unique, but it also has patterns, particularly in this region, they have a history of neoliberalism, of their nation being sold out to the highest bidder. They have a history of indigenous people organizing in kind of local pockets of struggle. But then you see in the 90s into the 2000s when the mass was elected and came into power that they started shifting from kind of a local defensive posture into a more organized kind of national offensive posture. And just to give credit where credit is due because this is not my original idea. This was Alvaro Garcia-Linera, the vice presidents of Evo Morales who gave this analysis of how they came to power. And I think it's something that we're noticing across the region happened more than that. It's how they were able to regain power after the 2019 coup. They never lost the base. Exactly. And so just because you're not always in power. Exactly. But that doesn't mean you have no power. Exactly. Holding office is one thing. Sorry, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, the holding office is one thing. But you know, you have that movement behind you, under you that there's power there whether you're actually officially holding office or not. Absolutely. And that's how the mass came back after the coup in 19. Exactly. And never lost that. That's that important point of political theory that becomes political practice, right? I mean, everyone from Karl Marx spoke about it. Enrique Ducel wrote his book about the 20 Theses on Politics about it where the base of social movements, civil society, those are the foundations of what the state is and can do. Without them, if the people rise up and rebel, the state can collapse. And the state, but also the state can be run in a different way and can be used to actually promote what in our Guatemalan memory, Jacob Varvins-Guzmana attempted to do, right? Which is health, housing, land, food. The most basic things to survive and to build a strong culture, a strong people. And so here's why another one of the reasons why this party is so threatening because they're in a way that's true to the social and political and economic reality of Guatemala, but also learning from other movements. Some of their biggest proposals are some of the things that have been learned from other nations. So a plurinational state is something that has already been implemented in places like Bolivia, which we spoke about. That's one of the major proposals since 2009 that the MLP, the MLP has been pushing forward. They have also named that they want to create a popular constitutional assembly to rewrite the constitution, right? Something that so many countries in the region have done and that has been essential to be able to almost restart in a way that can actually make room and make space for the people's dignity to actually be able to politically and economically be expressed, right? And then they have also spoken of nationalization, particularly of the electrical industries in Guatemala because there is a lot of production of energy and electricity in Guatemala, particularly in rural areas that impact indigenous people. But all of that energy and electricity, it's the export elsewhere. It's the export to Mexico, to Colombia, to the United States, the elites in those countries, right? And in Guatemala, it's sold to the indigenous people at exorbitant amounts in a privatized way that they cannot afford. And now- It's modern colonialism, as you said. That's where we started, right? Yeah, it's the same model that's been used for 500 years. It's just modern tools and modern technology, but it's the same model. Exactly. With the same families. With the same families. And so in January, when Temma Cabrera and Jordán Rodas go to the Supreme Electoral Tribunal, which within Guatemala, it's the institution responsible for basically approving if you can run, they're supposed to ensure that you're not a convicted criminal, basically you just- Can you qualify? You're constitutional. That you qualify constitutionally, exactly. They reject the inscription of Jordán Rodas and Temma Cabrera and of their party. And the argument that they use is that there is an anomaly, right? Really broad word. An anomaly and the paperwork. Eventually what comes out, and this is a lot of detail, but for those who are interested, I'll name it, right? In Guatemala, the people who are going to go forward, if they had been previously involved in public office, they need basically documentation from the comptroller showing that all financial transactions were always clean, you could say. The Supreme Electoral Tribunal has said that that document from Jordán Rodas has an anomaly, but they have not specifically addressed what it is and he hasn't been convicted of anything. This is just a statement that has been publicly made and it has been their excuse to be able to say that there's an anomaly and therefore they can't run for the presidency. So he doesn't know what it is, so he has no possibility of correcting it. What he's doing is he's showing the paperwork and he's going around the world. Really, Kim and Tamaka have been at Belgium and Spain and the United States, they've gone all around with the International Commission of Human Rights, they attempted to meet with the OAS, just all these different international bodies to try and say, there's nothing wrong, right? And but it's a similar tactic to what I described earlier that the foundation against terrorism does with bogus charges that disrupt enough to delay processes and movements, disrupt processes and movements and then by the time things get resolved, it's too late, right? So if- His case got resolved on June 26th. Exactly, that's exactly what I was gonna say. I have a strong suspicion that June 26th, they'll be like, actually nothing was wrong, our bad and it's almost, it's like a circus. It really feels like a circus. It's just these absurd things that are happening and these are organizations globally now have been recognizing that it's almost a level of absurdity that has been unseen in many parts of the region and the world and that says a lot, right? Because we've seen a lot of surrealism in our country and in our continent. But what they're doing right now, Telma Cabrera-Jordán Rodas is they've gone to the OAS, like I said, International Court of Human Rights. You saw those news articles earlier trying to speak to any medium that will listen to them to really raise the conscience of the globe about the interconnections, about what's happening in Guatemala and then internally in Guatemala, they've gone now to the Supreme Court, which denied their appeal to be inscribed as candidates because the Supreme Court also is accused of having many ties to the corrupt networks and now they've gone to the constitutional courts, which is the final court. And if they say no and they deny it, that's it. They will not be able to run for the presidency and vice presidency. And today is their hearing, actually. Oh, wow. They are gonna present their case today. I'll be honest with you, people don't have high hopes. I think at this point, and this is just my personal opinion, I think that part of what may be part of their strategy, I think is use this as a moment to politically, kind of like both educate people on what's happening in Guatemala, mobilize, create connections, create networks to strengthen the movement, even if it's a big setback. But we all know this isn't the end. Every movement who has actually won something significant in history has shown that what it takes to actually win is to learn from your defeats. And so that's my personal take. I think, I hope that's what they're doing. I think that's what they're doing. But I also- One of the things, just listening to you describe this, I mean, one of the things, I didn't realize they'd been to so many different countries. I knew they'd been in the United States. But one of the things, for me personally, having served as an international election observer, one of the things they're very clearly doing is casting doubt on the credibility of the electoral process in Guatemala. That's huge. I mean, that's a big- Absolutely, absolutely. And that's a great point because there have been also organizations in Guatemala. Another one that Nisual works with is the Center for Action for Human Rights, Center for Legal Action for Human Rights, Caldeache. And they have expressed that, I have a quote here from them directly that they said the fraud is marked from the moment that they do not allow MLP to participate. Then they go on and I'll explain some of this. And they unconstitutionally allow Suri Rios to participate. Suri Rios is currently the- It's this woman here. She is currently in many of the polls in the country. She is the leading candidate. She is the daughter of the man in the previous slide who was convicted for genocide in 2013. She is the daughter of that Rios, Efraín Rios Mont, Suri Rios. She has been a congresswoman for a long time, extreme right, socially, pro-life, politically, pro-military, and all the suspicion and I mean, the people know all the ties to criminal networks and political corruption. She is leading a lot of the polls. But the reason that this quote from the center of legal action for human rights is relevant is they named, it's unconstitutional that Suri Rios was inscribed and others like the MLP were not. And part of the reason for that is that there is an article in the constitution that says that no one who has been, and I wish I had it the exact quote off the top of my mind, but no one who's a family member of someone convicted for crimes against humanity or who has been a dictator or involved in a coup in the nation can then run for presidency. And she was allowed, she's being allowed to run for president. So that's just an overt. It's very overt. And she wasn't allowed in 2019, but there are different magistrates now, magistrados in the court now. And so this grew. And the MLP is more organized and larger. And the MLP is more organized and larger. And that was in 2019, yeah. Exactly, more of a threat. There is a lot of really suspect activity happening and you're totally right. Casting doubt on the process is exactly what is happening and is what needs to happen. People in Guatemala are calling this electoral fraud before elections. And so I've had conversations with people who are close to the situation, which I won't name, but people who have said, what you mentioned, electoral observation, right? They have said, we need electoral observation now. Exactly, I was just gonna ask you about that. We need to expand our understanding of what that means. Can't be going count quotes. It needs to be things like sending journalists right now to Guatemala to figure out what's happening. It needs to be meeting with the actual social movements, human rights observers, with the judges who have been exiled, all these people, I just named this last hour, who are part of this network of people who have been criminalized and harassed by the extreme right because those are the voices of people who are actually trying to turn the tide in the country and who are having the metaphorical gun turned on them. And I said the metaphorical gun, but one of the concerns that a lot of us have connected to social movements in Guatemala is Suri Rios's ties to large military networks and people who have been players during the internal armed conflict. And there are people in Guatemala who have a concern that at the pace, the state co-optation has gone because like I said, it started in the mid last decade and it's been increasing and increasing that if she's empowered, some people are concerned that, and this is graphic imagery, but I heard this from a specific person on the ground who said, we're worried that heads are gonna start falling. Yeah, literally. Literally, and we hope that is not the case and we will work tooth and nail to make sure that is not the case, but it is a possibility. Let's put it that way. So what does that mean for the future, right? Let me say the glass half empty and then I'll say the glass half full, right? To end on the positive note. With the glass half empty, you can see one of these images here. It's continued migration. Continued instability for ordinary people who literally it's by the hundreds of thousands. We've all seen the news. All the mainstream media has done a good, has done their job about publicizing the caravans, about criminalizing and saying horrible narratives about migrants, but the fact is people are coming and people are coming because- They're fleeing a security threat. They're fleeing- As well as lack of economic opportunity and time changing, but it's the security threat. And all of these things we've just spoken about this last hour, it's all the root causes of migration. And so, when we hear Biden and Harris talk about the root causes of migration, this and that, and their proposals are to invite more foreign investment to the country and such. And security training and security training and more financing for the Guatemalan military to strike the rule of law. All that does is be turned against the people and lead to more migration. And so, I do wanna do a shout out and a plug to like the America's Policy Forum, which is happening this weekend, which is actually gonna have a panel on unearthing the real root causes of forced migration. One of our comrades from CISPIS, like the Committee on Solidarity with the People of El Salvador, she's going to be part of that panel along with some other incredible people because this is- Yesenia. Yesenia, yes, you know- Yesenia, and our audience will recognize, Yesenia, she's been a guest several times on this program. Awesome, and she's incredible, you know? And our organization- She knows her stuff. She does know her stuff. We've partnered together in the past, our organizations to start really creating consciousness that all these things we're talking about, these are the real root causes of forced migration, right? And that is not gonna get any better, right? So that's one consequence. The other one, right, glass half empty right now is still the falling of heads, that's a potential. The other one is the potential closure of any NGO or social movement that has a connection to an NGO that is suspected of foreign financing, suspected by the right-wing controlled state, right? These are all things that will continue happening. And obviously, more foreign investment will be invited, not of any good kind. More private investment. Seeing you exactly private foreign investment owned by some of the largest capitalist multinationals, which will continue increasing the precarity and the poverty of people, leading to them have to, again, have to migrate. So it just leads to more and more instability in the region. Now I wanna say something, glass half full, because I do embrace the tradition of radical optimism of folks like Che Guevara, like Franz Fanon, like the Zapatistas, like, you know, Bertha Cáceres, you know, we're regional, you know, comrades from the beyond and in the present. And they all knew that, you know, we need to continue organizing. And I know that sounds so simple, but we need to expand our circles of organizing. And I'll say this, because I know a lot of folks listen to your program, you know, it's within NISWA, we've been talking how do we continue expanding the circle to include and make it more accessible for people to join social movements? Because I think, you know, in the U.S., like in Guatemala, we've had that challenge of really coordinating with each other, of really building, you know, larger fronts of struggle. And so it's really important to build these larger progressive, a progressive international, right? There's even an organization now called the Progressive International that is doing an outstanding work of starting to coordinate at a global level, right? And so in Guatemala, folks want to do that. I know in other regions, folks want to do that. So we'll see right now what happens because the world is shifting. And let me say one last thing that I wanted to say earlier and it just passed me. That's important to understand from a global geopolitical perspective, part of why I think the United States, despite many of its statements and its kind of pronouncements against the corruption and, you know, putting a few folks on the angles list, why it's unlikely that the U.S. will do anything more to actually support Guatemala, which is fine, we shouldn't expect that, right? But it's because the U.S. has a strong interest in maintaining Guatemala on its side as it loses its footing in the region. Guatemala just hosted the Taiwanese president last month, actually. One of the few remaining countries that recognizes Taiwan. About 12 countries, I believe, in the world. And, you know, Guatemala's... Out of 192. Exactly. It was never very many to begin with, like 17, maybe, 15 or 17, yeah. Yeah, you know, so that's what Guatemala does that. It's the Juan Guaido type thing. The Juan Guaido type thing, exactly. Guatemala was the first country to follow the U.S. and moving its embassy to Jerusalem when Donald Trump did that. Yeah, I agree. Demin Morales, the previous president, was the first one to jump on it and say, we're doing that too. And Guatemala moved their embassy to Jerusalem. That's a different day's conversation. Right. Really close ties between Guatemala and Israel. And then the third is... And that's like generations, that tie. I mean, because I know when I was there in the 80s, we saw a lot, a lot of Israeli manufactured military. Yep. Probably the... I'm not sure it's the first or second largest private security firm in Guatemala, which some of the wealthiest families use for their bodyguards, is an Israeli firm. So... Elbit, is it Elbit? Golang. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Golang, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in Guatemala, you'll see Golang signs everywhere in the world. Everywhere. And the third geopolitical thing that the Guatemalan president has done is he traveled to Ukraine. He has no real geopolitical weights when it comes to Ukraine, but he still keeps the U.S. happy. And so he's played his cards in this way. So, okay, the U.S. is making statements against the corruption, but really the U.S. at the end of the day is happy that he traveled to Ukraine, hosted the Taiwanese president, and has his embassy in Israel. And so I don't need to talk to the WETF, you know, about the... We all know what that means. You know what that means. So... Lula's saying, no, we're not going to donate our Russian military equipment to Ukraine and replace it with U.S. approval. We don't want to spend our money on that. We want to spend it on our people. Exactly. So that's just an important analysis to consider when we think about what the future looks like for Guatemala and the U.S. and the region. And it's something that people in Guatemala are concerned about. It's something that really, even international audiences are concerned about. Anyone who is part of a social movement, of a progressive political movement, of human rights work, even more broadly, you know, and institutionally, just that those general spaces are very concerned about this electoral fraud that's happening in Guatemala and what that might mean for all of us. Yeah. Wow. This has been extremely informative, Frank. I... It's... And very powerful. I, you know, with the elections and, you know, you mentioning that, and I think most of us who have served as election observers, you know, you go in on election day and you can verify, you know, are the polling centers set up correctly? Do people have equal access under the law to vote? You know, are the machines being audited correctly? And, you know, when the polls are closed, is that all being made? But like you said, that's election day. That's just the technical validation of election day. But the election itself is the results. Who can participate? What the campaign, that's all happening now. So the context of election day is being created now. And that is, I totally agree with you, that is what has to be investigated and witnessed. It is how, you know, what is happening today to set up the actual context of June 25th. Yes, exactly. And that's the first round. It's expected that both Suri Rios and another candidate named Sandra Torres, she's in name, she's from the center left, but in practice, it's seen that she's just kind of use more populist narrative to gain support, but it's tied also to criminal networks, corrupt networks. And so we're in a difficult situation because they're both expected to go to the second round, which is in August. And we'll see from there because Suri Rios, with both of them, there would be problems, but with Suri Rios as in power, I think more people are more concerned about that, at least in the circles that are on the left, right? And that connected human rights action. So that's where we are. I am curious to see if, you know, some of these political movements in Guatemala, I don't know if they are in communication with organizations like CELAC, with some of the leftist political parties. I know that those are conversations that are had on your program. So I think that there's a lot of things happening in the region that could really impact Guatemala, but inside of the country, on the ground, it still doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel the way that I've heard from folks, it feels in Colombia or Brazil, you know, or even Chile with its, you know, interesting developments, right? It's a mix of, yeah. Yeah, but we're not here to talk about Chile. Yeah, yeah. So at the end of the day, these are indigenous movements of indigenous people who, you know, in a country who along with Bolivia and Ecuador have the largest demographic numbers of indigenous people within the country in the entire region. And so they're really organizing and saying, you know, 500 years is enough. We're not gonna do another 500 years, so. Or should they? Yeah. No reason. That whole, you know, create, that the whole goal of creating a plurib national nation, that word alone in and of itself is extraordinarily threatening. Yeah. And not just to white landowners, but, you know, almost everyone who believes in the neoliberal project that's exported by the US, that plurinational, that word is extraordinarily, and I would argue that has a, that word is what has fueled so much of the violence in Peru right now, too. Their desire to create a plurinational state. That's the political arm, right, of the broader philosophy of when we meet, right? Good living. Yes. I wish I knew how to pronounce it in their different indigenous languages because I've heard it and it's beautiful how it like slips off the tongue. But that when we meet, right, which is finding harmony and balance across communities at a social level, economic, And with the earth! with the earth, and with the earth, with a real relation to the earth that doesn't see it as a means of profit and of, you know, so-called developments, which really is only an excuse for funneling resources into the pockets of a tiny few, right? And so that project of when we meet, I think that there lies the seed and, you know, this is a personal opinion that there lies the seed of something similar to what that October revolution in Russia was last century. You know, and their vision and their work unleashed something for the rest of the last century. I think in when we meet and in the movements of indigenous people on this continent, I'll speak at least for the continent, lies a lot of what has continued developing and will continue being a guide for this region. And we can all work in the alliances and in coalitions, right? Across different progressive perspectives. But I think some of the most powerful philosophical roots of what will transform our society is in that philosophy of Wimbivir and how it plays out politically, economically and socially. So, you know, we're here to stand in solidarity and work practically in solidarity with indigenous movements. So, you know, I appreciate the time to have this dialogue because it's all connected, right? At the end of the day. Yeah, it is. Right now. Yeah, it is. And you can really see it unfolding across, you know, the hemisphere. Well, Latin America and the Caribbean. You can really, really, you know, we had a conversation a couple of weeks ago on the Monroe Doctrine with Carlos Roome from Venice. I heard it. Did you listen to it? Yeah, I did. Thank you so much. I was, I really caught myself in that conversation and this was why for me personally, it's so important to have these episodes with people like you, you know, given your family and where you're from. You know, your heritage, your culture, where, you know, who you are. Because we hear things differently and I had shared on that Monroe Doctrine, which definitely applies to Guatemala. Yes, yes. I really felt, you know, having been an election observer all the way, you know, from Bolivia in October of 2019, all the way through, well, I tried to get into Columbia in 2022, all the way through Brazil. The results have been, in my opinion, I thought, okay, the general population across the Americas is voting for national sovereignty, natural resource sovereignty, and candidates with an economic plan that will uplift the majority of the citizens. That's how, to me, that's what they voted for and we've seen these changes in government, reflective, you know, it's a spectrum, but, you know, center left or revolutionary left. You know, this movement, you know, people in the South are emancipating themselves from the Monroe Doctrine. Yes. And it's pushing up. And so then the Venezuelans say, yes, that's true and we have done it before. And that is when the Monroe Doctrine becomes the most violent, like with Plan Condor. And I hadn't, I mean, and this is where it's so important to have these conversations with those of you, you know, from countries that have suffered this because like, wow, here I'm thinking really optimistic and countries are emancipating themselves and it's going to push north and maybe we can emancipate ourselves in the United States with their help. I was like, yes, we've done this before and this is when the United States gets the most violent. Yeah. I was like, boy, that was a really important thing for me to hear. And Venezuela knows it better than anyone's country. This century, I don't think, I mean, Cuba, right? Cuba knows it well also, but Venezuela has really had to, an uphill battle this century. Well, since Simon Bolivar. Since Simon Bolivar. He saw it. He was right, you know, he saw it so much. Definitely since then, you know, I'm just thinking even since the Chavista Revolution, right? And the Bolivarian Revolution and the constant coups, coup attempts, the sanctions that just endless just gets stronger and stronger. And I mean, Chavez started something incredible in the region and it continues unfolding, right? It's like I named those other ancestors a moment ago, right? Like their impact continues reverberating and we need to continue learning from them and putting that into practice because it is incredibly impactful. This Monroe Doctrine, in fact, we actually at NISWA, we just wrote a report naming the Monroe Doctrine last month. Folks can find it on our websites. I'll put the link in the program notes. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you because it was actually edited for the purposes of promoting the Bering the Monroe Doctrine America's policy forum happening this Saturday. Saturday the 29th in Washington, D.C. or live on NISWA's. There you go, live on NISWA's YouTube and everybody else's. So, you know, it's very important because it has been, right? That ideological foundation for 200 years to justify military intervention, which to this day, Guatemala receives, you know, military, the military training with the Arkansas National Guard through Southcom's, you know, military operations. So it's like, who would guess, right? The Arkansas National Guard is assigned to do training operations with the Guatemalan military, right? And all of that is organized through the U.S. That's how they get around military interventionism. That's how they get around the Leahy Law, right? Exactly. Yeah, you know, financing continues going through just last November, 95 vehicles were donated to the Guatemalan military by the U.S. Ambassador. William Popp had a huge show with the generals and the, you know, military grounds in Guatemala and talking about, you know, fighting drug trafficking, talking about fighting, you know, all the problems of Guatemala. But really, I can tell you from dozens of both anecdotal, but there's also actual research on this that this ends up being turned against migrants and against activists. Those are the two groups that end up being repressed and suppressed in incredibly violent ways. The drug lords are connected in networks to the people in state power right now in Guatemala. So it's just unbelievable. But like I said, the U.S. isn't gonna pay attention to that because Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan, very important to have an ally in the region when you're losing so much. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, Frank, in our closing minutes, what can we as U.S. citizens do? I mean, we definitely can come work with you at Nisqua. Is it beneficial for any of us to come as international election observers? Or what, how can we best as activists, as an audience of activists? Serve the work in Guatemala. I think that is an excellent question. And I can share some ideas, but I really think this is a collective mind needs to go developing this, right? Even at Nisqua, we have a political education group internally with folks in our network because we ask these questions to ourselves all the time. So, yes, electoral observation is very important. And I say that in the qualified sense that we spoke earlier. Expanded understanding of electoral observation. If someone can only do the day off, great. Like we'll accept it. But it's so important right now for folks to come down to Guatemala, to be able to really address and highlight what is happening. Because like you said, it started in January. The electoral process started in January and the worst of it happens before the day of the actual election. It's happening right now. Another thing that actually I think is fairly underestimated at times is the importance of having good researchers who are almost like, I would call them social movement researchers, right? I think there's a lot of folks who are already doing this, but using their research skills, whether academically, journalistically, et cetera, to be able to really uncover a lot of the roots of the problems. So for example, the foundation against terrorism that I was speaking about in Guatemala, they operate a lot in the shadows. And so some things are known about them, but not a lot. And how do you fight something you can't see, right? So it's important to be able to have international support. Then I would also say, from the US, there are movements in the US, like Niswa and others who are trying to move things that address the real root causes of forced migration, like restricting or ideally cutting the so-called security aid, which is military aid, so the region, that's some of the work that we have done in collaboration with CISPIS and other comrades from Honduras because this entire region. Same, yeah. Same model. Exactly. Those are three immediate things that come up to me. The thing that I would say, because I think I learned this from the Sabatistas, which it doesn't sound immediately connected to Guatemala, but you're an internationalist. And so I know you understand what I say this and I think most folks on your program will is organize where you are. Like organize intensely, fiercely and relentlessly where you are. Like get your neighbors together. And I'm talking about with a radical revolutionary political program and mentality that can really get at the roots of problems because when I say we're interconnected, the people in power know that. Look at the capital, look at the right wing. They know we're all interconnected. So if you're struggling in your region and you're part of the world to organize and to fight the arms company that is in your backyard to pass resolutions against military financing in your local city governments, those things reverberates. And when you're strengthened in a collective and an organization that is doing that, it's so much easier to make connections and so much easier to find what we can do together, right? And so I know that that's not an immediate thing. That's a long-term objective. And like most people, I will say, and I've shared this with the audience many times, all the delegations I've been on over the years throughout Latin America and the Caribbean, inevitably someone that in the country you're visiting, it could be in a formal meeting, it could just be a taxi driver, somebody on the street you're buying, you know, Sandhya from, we'll say, thank you for being here. Thank you for uplifting our voices. Now go home and fix your own country first and the rest of us will benefit. That's where the work is inside. You know, for all of us U.S.ians, it's inside our own country. And you know, the connection and the relationship that even we're building, because like we said earlier, that is the foundation of every truly transformative movement. Because like we said, there's so much distrust, there's so much risk to all of this. In Guatemala, we have this phrase that we always ask, like when someone is, you know, everything from political movements to ordinary daily life, is the confianza? Like, are they trustworthy? And that's a culture that has developed, like people just say it on a daily basis. But I think it's so telling because it really shows that to really transform things, we need to build trust with each other. And so, you know, build true relations with people. That's what we're trying to do. That's why we're called the network in solidarity. We are a network and there are thousands of people in the network that have built over the years. And the goal is to continue building these links. So, you know, continue lifting up, you know, the voices of the people in the US, organize with the people if you're close to them. You know, there are growing migrant groups in the US that are doing important work, both to support Guatemalan movements and also to work with migrants and organize migrants here because there are millions of migrants in the US, including Guatemalans. So if you're with migrants, organize with them, show solidarity, you know, build organizations with them that create, you know, strategic short, medium and long-term goals. And so, again, I think that that is my message for folks because right now, an electoral observation is very important for this moment, but then whatever happens next, we need to start looking ahead because we're in it for the long haul with Guatemala and we're looking to other countries to really learn a lot of what's being done. And I think that's what they did 30 years ago or 20 years ago. They were saying, all right, we really have to look far down. So that's what I would say. Wow, thank you so much. I am so thankful for this conversation and really thankful for your time that you were so generous with all your time and your knowledge. This has been a really, really powerful and informative conversation. And boy, we'll be sure to get it circulated and I'll include a number of the things, articles and things that you've mentioned in the program notes. And for the audience, what social media handles can I share of any? The NISQA handles, I won't share yours personally. Yeah, the NISQA handles. I, on the slides, you've seen the website and the Instagram handle, which are usually most active, but we also have Facebook, which are active on and Twitter. So I can send all of those to you right now, but those are the ones we use the most. And the website, we also update regularly. Okay, great. Absolutely. And if anyone wants to be personally in touch with me, they can go through you. And if that's okay with you, and I'd be happy to connect with folks to continue talking about this and organizing in more practical ways. Okay, fabulous. And just for the audience, these questions are being, I'm asking these questions to Frank because it is a security risk. His work has some really high security risks. And so that's one of the reasons I'm so thankful. He was willing to talk to all of us today. So I'll put all that contacting for my email and the NISQA website and the social media handles for NISQA in the program notes for the audience. So thank you, Frank. What a privilege to have this conversation. Really beautiful. Thank you. I appreciate you and the work that you do as well. This is an incredible program and more people need to continue listening to it. So I appreciate your invitation. Thank you so much. So for the audience, I'm just gonna remind you, you've been watching what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean where a popular resistance broadcast. You can find us on YouTube channels for CodePink, the ConvoCouch and popular resistance, 7.30 p.m. Eastern, Thursdays, post-broadcast recordings can be found at Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And so we'll see all of you in May, next Thursday. Next Thursday. Thank you so much, everyone, for joining us.