 Well, good morning everyone. Wonderful to see such a great turn out here this morning. My name is Richard Downey I'm deputy director of the Africa program here at CSIS Welcome to the latest event in our statesman's forum series in which we invite prominent world leaders to present their views about critical policy issues Before a public audience in Washington and on the web as well today It's a great pleasure this morning to welcome back to CSIS the prime minister of Kenya, Rila Ridinga I think the last time you were with us, Prime Minister was back in early summer of 2008 only a few months after the presidential election crisis had died down Here in the United States I think many of us who'd got accustomed to thinking of Kenya as a stable and peaceful Country were jolted somewhat out of our complacency by those events Since then we've been following Events very closely and we're glad that Kenya such a close friend of the United States has started to pick itself up from that traumatic experience But it's been a tough road There's been a lot of soul-searching And compromises and tough decisions have had to be made and Prime Minister you've had to make more than most Adjusting to the stresses and strains of a power-sharing government While trying to put Kenya back on the right footing by addressing some of those structural problems and grievances Which led to the explosion of violence in those closing days of 2008 and opening weeks of 2000 Sorry opening weeks of 2008 One of the key challenges still to be overcome is how to break out of this destructive cycle Which we see in so many countries in Africa Where politicians have sought to win electoral support by making ethnic appeals Emphasizing divisions rather than trying to bridge them now in Kenya a very important breakthrough last summer was passing a constitution which would Provide a framework for getting beyond some of these divisions. It's the standout achievement I think so far of the Grand Coalition government Strongly endorsed by the Kenyan people in a referendum the challenge, of course is the implementation The jury is still out on whether who will prevail the reformers Or those who wish to defend the status quo But I'm very pleased to count the Prime Minister as a member of the reformist camp I'm looking forward to him speaking this morning about those outstanding challenges perhaps in the questions afterwards about the Constitution Other big challenges since the last election of course have been addressing the root causes of the violence and bringing to justice the main orchestrators of that violence the international criminal court has become the venue for that investigation And the six suspects including cabinet ministers Have within the past week appeared at the Hague to answer summonses in relation to that inquiry Now of course the need to address these issues and the wider causes of violence become all the more urgent as Kenya Once more prepares to enter another election cycle in 2012 So next summer's elections will be a major test of how far Kenya has come since 2007 Now at the heart of all these challenges I've outlined is the need for good governance And so it's very fortunate this morning that the Prime Minister has indeed chosen this theme good governance and Democracy as a subject of his address We're looking forward to hearing his remarks Touching on Kenya, but also the broader challenges. I think of good governance in Africa In which he's been personally invested Recently in his unique experience. He's been able to offer of power-sharing government at home Lending his support to mediation efforts by the AU the African Union in the likes of Ivory Coast Also closely following events in another power-sharing a government that's unraveling in Zimbabwe So we're going to be very interested to hear his views on these crises and the other challenges of Governance in the African continent Particularly this worrying tendency of contested election outcomes, which is popping up in so many countries So so much to talk about we're very grateful for such a timely visit With that I'll hand over to the Prime Minister and afterwards. We'll hopefully have plenty of time For members of the audience to ask questions as well. So mr. Dinger welcome Thank you. Thank you very much For such a very elaborate introduction Well, I say good morning In Swahili we say hum jambu well first Allow me to express my appreciation For the opportunity of giving me To address you this morning The Center for strategic and international studies is one of the world's leading think tanks And I believe its reputation is thoroughly deserved I have a location to talk to you on Varying subjects and each time I come here. I Come wiser than I came into the audience here You are crucial work looking for solutions to foreign policy security and development problems Continues to have a tremendous impact on the international community. I Want to speak to you this morning on a subject that is causing growing anxiety Among many of us in Africa and most of you here with us this morning That subject is what appears To be the democracy deadlock in Africa Is democracy under siege in Africa? Are we progressing or are we regressing? That is actually the subject I want to talk about There's real fear in Africa that a new pattern of failing elections is emerging It is all the more alarming that this represents a sharp regression After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 We saw in Africa the emergence of what we called the second liberation This established already established a multiparty political systems and demanded Greater transparency and accountability the management of national affairs It swept out some of those old dictators and Began a new era that promised an end to election rigging And in some ways it has worked Most African countries have very established a multiparty democratic systems there has been competitions and There has been appreciable Progress that has been made this is actually evidenced by the increased growth that we have registered on the continent In average most African countries or economies have registered above five percentage growth over the last ten years and Today elections are vigorously contested across the continent Since 2007 At least ten African countries have held presidential or parliamentary votes or constitutional referenda This year 21 nations will go to the polls Position parties are better organized a lecture monitoring is more effective and voters are better informed People are no longer silent in the face of election fraud and African leaders can no longer guarantee themselves landslide victories like in the past They know they will face challenges at the polls and that they could lose to their opponents For the first time in his history Africa also has retired presidents Since 2000 More than 10 presidents are retired when there are a lot of terms of finish Previously power change hands only by violent overthrow or assassination or when old men died But unhappily Some problems have a reason and there are fears that much of Africa could be drifting towards a new authoritarianism A significant worrying pattern is emerging of a troubled ballot Close the fort elections with the heavily disputed results are becoming the norm Incumbents are coercing electoral commissions to skew the polls in their favor and then when their opponents protests their research to force Many thousands die and are displaced until the internal community steps in the international community steps in In to work out some kind of power sharing arrangement. This is what you've seen happen recently in the code of war I am sure you are all aware of the Kenyan situation Where the presidential election results were disputed and The problem was resolved by an internationally mediated power sharing arrangement This was not exactly an export to be proud of But now alarmingly it seems to have become a new tool for dictators It is a template that was enthusiastically embraced by Mr. Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe Who used it to resolve his own rigged elections? An equal power is characteristic of a coalition government with incumbents grabbing the land share in Zimbabwe Mugabe side retained control of the military police and security services what you can call the instruments of power Leaving their coalition partners with economic development and reconstruction Mugabe's coalition partners Was thus expected to rebuild the nation after conflict while being undermined by Mr. Mugabe's side The result has been deadlock in government and paralysis in the country Kenyan's case is not dissimilar Most damaging of all The coalition arrangement in Kenya and his inherent tensions Have meant that preparing for the next election has been almost a continuous since the conclusion of the last one This has distracted from critical day-to-day issues and has often rendered parliament a theater of the absurd The lesson being learned here is that power sharing is at best a deeply unstable temporary measure with the negative long-term consequences The continent has seen other depressing developments in Gabon and Togo the deaths of long-serving dictators Omar Bongo and Nassimbe Iyadema Created room for elections in which power was smoothly transferred to their sons Mauritania Guinea Madagascar and Niger have all had coups since 208 in most cases because of the incumbents refusal to transfer power in some other countries Elections are being won by incumbents after intimidation of opposition supporters a Number of other countries have held massively flawed elections that left hundreds of protesting opposition supporters dead Opposition parties have subsequently been vandalized and many opposition is jailed Making them unable to compete in the subsequent elections It is telling That for the past two years the more Ibrahim Foundation Which offers the world's richest prize to African leaders who helped develop their countries and then peacefully leave office Has decided to make no awards No leaders mess the standards There have been a few Bright spots however such as Ghana Where presidents have twice considered defeat and handed over power to leaders from the opposition And Boswana and Benin are two others South Africa Has consistently exercised democratic free and fair elections With the free media despite the African nation of Congress dominance of the post-apathetic politics But Those countries that have done well are overshadowed by and outnumbered By the great majority where backsliding has occurred last year Freedom House, which is based in this city Found that political freedoms are declined in 10 countries on the continent In 2009 and improved in just four This growing trend away from democracy Includes not only power in states such as Eritrea and Sudan But also such key Western allies and recipients of foreign aid as my own country as well as Ethiopian Uganda where troops have Functioned as the de facto Western proxies in battling radical Somali Islamists in Mogadishu the West reluctance to challenge autocratic regimes appears to be driven by security concerns Leading to the fear that global politics Might once again be pushing the world to tolerate dictatorship in Africa Just as it did in the Cold War And you all know what happened during the Cold War In those days The enemy was communism So long as you said that you are an ally of the West in the war Against communism Nobody cared how you ran your country You are tolerated That is how we created mobitus as a seco kung was a banger of this world That's how we created Camus of Bhandas Jean-Badele Boccaccia Idi Amin Dada and so on Everyone had a vested interest and everyone turned a blind eye All this is happening when groups such as the US Agency for International Development and the UK's Department for International Development are striving for the UN aid goal of 0.7 percent of the gross national income To ensure millennium development goals are met But if governance is bad No amount of aid money will lift African countries out of poverty We have to fix the politics fast So ladies and gentlemen I have always been an Afro optimist and Developments in Africa give me more reason to be hopeful about the future of the continent Some of our governments and civil societies have woken up to the fact that regular Multi-party elections alone do not lead to good governance the rule of law and economic development And that elections have not eradicated corruption repression and under development People are demanding more than just trappings They want constitutional changes that create inclusivity stability responsibility proper separation of powers effective checks and balances and independent judiciary and media and clear election schedules and full limits on presidential terms and powers Some nations are also working to end into ethnic Tension through the devolution of power and Union federalism and to combat corruption by limiting the power of the executive and increasing government transparency I Can probably say that Kenya leads the park in taking proactive steps Last year you promulgated a new constitution that limits executive power set dates for elections Devolve control of resources and sets stringent integrity and accountability requirements for leaders. I Believe that year will spread events in Libya Egypt Code of war and Tunisia I was shown that the people are ready to take on those who abuse power and deny the majority they do It is also a mark of progress that the African Union summoned up the courage to take a stand in the ivory coasts and Tell the now deposed Lauren Bagwell that he had been defeated and must leave office as the middle as the middle class emerges and forms critical mass as Modern economy develops and professionals establish the associations and codes and As educated youth Becomes a large majority of the population Surely the yearning for true democracy will rise It will rise to the extent that the old order can no longer contain The peaceful birth of a new African nation the southern Sudan is a case in point This is a cause for celebration Celebration of the democratic rights of the poorest of the poor The culture of democratic constitutionalism has definitely taken root in parts of Africa Often thanks to citizens and civil society Activists determined to make everyone count vote count Progressive leaders are emerging I Believe that if this determination on the part of the people is buttressed by the support of the international community Hope is alive That these early years of the 21st century can finally see the true blossoming of the African continent But To stay is cause in chatting this sure destiny Africa needs your support I remain optimistic that the african african democratization process That has been ongoing Since we started since independence emerged on the continent is coming of age That this 21st century is truly going to be the african century This is the century in which you are going to see The mobilization of the massive resources that Africa has natural and human for faster socio-economic development of the continent African continent is on the upper trend Most of the economies are now registering between five to ten to twelve percent growth It can only go upwards I am confident that Africa will truly emerge Thank you very much Thank you very much Prime Minister for such a broad and wide-ranging address. We have a good portion of time for questions And I thought maybe I'll use my prerogative as the chair and kick things off and talk about the country We spent a lot of time worrying about and following here in in recent weeks a month and and one that you've been involved with Directly and and that's cote d'Ivoire Perhaps you could talk a little bit more about your role in in trying to end that post election and dispute it seems that Bagbo was given so many plenty of opportunities for a soft landing an honorable exit Rejected them all eventually was was ousted by force How is it how important do you think it is for the credibility of of democracy in Africa that this crisis has? We hope being resolved But feel free to sit down or speak at the podium, whichever you prefer, okay Well it is very unfortunate that Bagbo had to go the way he did and I advised him that He needed to take the offer that was being given to him I wanted to be known that among the two I Know Mr. Bagbo more longer. He's been a colleague for a very long time When he was the leader of the democratization Struggles in the Cote d'Ivoire When he was also in exile and We actually started the what the socialist international African chapter together I also know Mr. Watarra very well as an international civil servant when he was here with the IMF It's also come to Kenya. So we've had them a long relationship with both of them So I tried to use my closeness to try to bring understanding and I told Mr. Bagbo clearly that all the evidence available showed that he had lost elections and That all the observer teams that had observed elections had said that he had lost Of course, he insisted. It's a language that we're used to That he won and that the electoral commission which had been We had which consisted of most of his opponents had rigged elections That he wanted the result to be verified That he wanted the AU to send up send a team of Impartial people to go and verify the results. I Told him that you know I Also won an election, but I'm not the president That is not the most important thing I think the most important thing is could it work and I told him that, you know, I was asked to Go to the court and challenge the results Which had been announced by the electoral commission. I refused to go to court Why because we had no confidence in the courts The courts were not independent The courts were appointed by the same executive that I was challenging and The electoral commission also had been Set up appointed single hundred by the executives. It was not neutral or independent Then I said we should have the results verified. I said no As why I said because Those ballard papers had been in the custody of the same electoral commission Which had done the rigging and the chances that they had been tampered with were very high So in your case It is the reverse These ballard papers you are talking about have been in custody of the court The constitutional court all this time The chances that they had been tampered with are very high So even if they are verified and it found that you won nobody will believe you It is an exercise in fertility So you must therefore go for a political settlement the political settlement is that the world perceives that you have lost and Politics is about perception You may not have lost but that is what the world believes and The conditions in the court of law does not allow for a repeat of another election in the next foreseeable future So you better agree and negotiate a political deal He agreed he was going to But then he changed his mind I gave him an offer Which I had been given to take up lectureships elsewhere given this country and that They would not be persecuted and That what Tara would agree to incorporate part of his people in a government of national unity All that he would say yes But then tomorrow you say no one of the generals Who will not hear of that and then of course there's always a woman somewhere in the equation Not that That is not the meaning to women at all. I am very gender sensitive But I Told him that to avoid bloodshed and necessary bloodshed where innocent civilians would die It was better for him to make a trigger deal He refused to take a deal and therefore we ended up the way you ended up Him being now taken in almost as a captive. I Have since at the occasion to send a message to miss a waterer That it should guarantee miss a bug was safety for the sake of Côte d'Ivoire that it should not be harmed and That if you want to go into exile, it should be allowed to go into exile somewhere If you want to remain in the country you can remain So long as he does not interfere with the political process That says they should also form a government that will include some of the people of the bug boss party In order to unite the country could the country fairly polarized That the north south divide This is a religious divide then there is indigenous Versus immigrant What they called it? I voriti? Ivoriti So in order to heal those wounds and reconciled the society So that is united. There's need for to play a game of inclusivity Other than a game of exclusivity arena takes all in my view will not solve The long-term problem of Côte d'Ivoire. Thank you. Thank you Well, I'll open the floor to Questions now we have microphones coming around so wait for a microphone. Please identify yourself and let's have Concise questions rather than statements gentleman at the front here Thank you Michael Marshall from United Press International Mr. Prime Minister Kenya like many countries in Africa in the developing world has a very young population It's skewed young and we know that Around the world the combination of young men and no jobs is politically volatile I wonder how you see Enough jobs being provided For the young people of Kenya particularly those who are getting an education and often don't find employment opportunities In what fields do you see? Suitable employment for your huge youth population developing. Thank you Let's take a couple of questions a couple of more questions Joel up the front here Microphone is coming There you go Joel Barkin CSIF two quick questions the first picking up on Richard's introduction about the struggle Between reformers and those who want to maintain the status quo which you alluded to yourself Could you comment on the implications of the proceedings in the Hague? The fate of the Ocampo 6 particularly, Mr. Ruto, Mr. Kenyatta and Mr. Mathauro The events on Monday the rally is reform grinding to a halt in there in In Kenya and secondly in respect to your comment about US tolerance for dictatorship Is that in fact occurring again in respect to US Africa policy with respect to Uganda and Ethiopia, thank you Let's take one more and lady at the front here in the middle Honourable Prime Minister His Excellencies ladies and gentlemen, my name is Rosemary Segero Best here in Washington DC. I'm from Kenya. Mr. Prime Minister Honourable Thank you so much for your wonderful presentation on not only Kenya, but Africa Thank you for your support and we support you. We are here We are behind Kenya and we are behind Africa also my question is how does the African Union look into all these violence In Africa when it comes to election are you are they going to come up with a policy or are they go What are they going to do and we need them to involve us into these issues because we are here as Kenyans as Americans and as the world watching them So we want them to involve us into these issues How are they going? How are they looking into the elections when it comes to covenants corruption and other issues? Thank you Well Yes Kenya the first question Like many other African countries as a relatively young population in fact according to the latest Sensors as was carried out in 209 about 15 I mean 35 percent and below constitute about 72 percent of our population So the population they say can either be An asset or A curse Depending on how you look at it and how you make use of it If the population is not empowered then it becomes just a dragon the economy and The solution is fast and foremost to provide education a quality education to this population because now we're talking about a global as well and We are in Kenya have resolved that we want to develop a knowledge based economy And that's why we are investing very heavily in education We introduced a free primary education now we have also introduced a free secondary education and you're also expanding How high institutions of learning You want to ensure doing we are also increasing the transition From primary to secondary and from secondary to University and other colleges of higher learning now employment because employment Created depending on how the economy grows If the economy must grow at a pace commensurate with the increase in population So that they are employment opportunities for our people What you have done now is so we have short term measures a midterm and long term Of course long term is that one we want the private sector to expand at a much faster rate to create more Sustainable employment for the people We are also investing very heavily in infrastructure infrastructure development provides a lot of employment For the youth of our country Then this is IT field Which also is creating quite a number of jobs and opportunities We Then there's the small and medium scale businesses. This is where people get self-employed This is where this is the factory of entrepreneurs The government is supporting small and medium scale Enterprises in the country because this is what will produce much more jobs for the people We a public sector employment is fairly limited We employ as a government a total of nearly half a million people And that's a very bloated bureaucracy which we are trying to trim down by way of retrenchment But on every year basis we produce over 750,000 new graduates That is those who exit at primary level those who exit at secondary level those who exit at University levels, so we are very much seized with this matter. This is how we are dealing with the issue of getting jobs Joe I See I mean ICC ICC as you know did not invite itself to Kenya Kenya actually invited ICC because the Report of the Waki Jassi Waki Commission, which investigated the post-election violence Had recommended that a local tribunal be set up To deal with the perpetrators of post-election violence But then they recommended that in the event that the government or parliament was unable to set up the tribunal Then the list Which they had compiled and and sealed in an envelope should be forwarded to ICC that envelope was given to Dr. Kofi Annan When we went to parliament as a government with a bill To amend the constitution to create an independent tribunal to try the post-election violence Suspects we were not able to get the requisite two-thirds majority in parliament there was a campaign That against a local tribunal That a local tribunal will be manipulated by the powers that be That the small fish are the only ones who will be fried the big fish Will not be tribe who cannot be tried locally So they all said that let's take this thing to the Hague He said don't be vague say Hague So he said fine. Let's just go to the Hague That's how the matter ended up in the Hague and Then mr. Ocampo First gave us another four months Which he said he did not want to come to Kenya unless I mean if Kenya was able to set up a tribunal Again, we were unable to make use of that offer So ICC then started his own investigations and then came up eventually with the six The six Suspects who appeared before the tribunal the ICC last week When so come for now mentioned the names then the story is to change Then ICC became a political court Politics that is being played that it is some of the Presidential candidates who want to remove their challenges from the field I'm one of those who now stand accused Serving influenced the ICC To take some of my opponents out of the way But nothing of course could be further from the truth The fact is that the list was prepared by the Commission that carried out investigations and handed over to the ICC Of course The law basically says that innocent until you approve guilty through the due process And this these people have not yet been tried and therefore they are innocent And all we say is that we wish them well in their trial But all at the same time What we don't want to see is the ethnicization of Politics Which will polarize Politics in the country and increase political temperatures at the time when a lot of reforms See need to be carried out before we go to the next general elections Well, I have said that regarding the support for dictators Well, I'm trying to say is To draw attention to a trend that is now fairly apparent That when we are friends You sometimes want to look the other way when I commit mistakes I've been saying that let us be consistent and Convey the same message to everyone and all the times We have seen Some of the trends that are now taking place particularly northern Africa my view is that The wind of change that blew in Eastern Europe Then Came mainly to sub-Saharan Africa left some part of the continent and that this Is more or less akin to What happened in Europe? Particularly in the 19th century It's more like it than the Eastern European phenomena which is happening and Really, it is a wake-up call Because in the Middle East term the US has been a An ally of regimes who have no regard for human rights completely So we are a beer you talk about elections They tell you go and tell that to your grandfather In some of the best allies of the Middle East of the US in I mean those areas But my view is that term the change will come Change will come and that's why it is important for us to be consistent Let us not be Talking to languages that contradict each other If it is about human rights this is about Democracy transparency the accountability let it apply across board This really is what is now happening It started in northern Africa and you've seen where it has spread on fled to my view even if they use the gun To try to muzzle the people. It is just a temporary arrangement Ultimately the will of the people shall prevail the AU that is rosemary AU Yes has some problems because It consists of Membership which are fairly disparate and are at different levels of development And that's why sometimes reaching a consensus becomes difficult it becomes some I Remember when we had a problem in Kenya Then the AU was going to meet the general assembly is going to meet in the suburb and some of my friends were encouraging me to go to the AU and insist that I was the elected president Then a friend of mine, I will not mention his name But then a minister in the UK government To me that Rila I would advise you he was himself on the way to the AU meeting That it should not go to a disabab because There in that audience Many more people with similar problems like the one you're having here So you will not get as sympathetic Hearing there this is a case where you'll be better off in that the European Union meeting than an meeting so The sometimes have taken contradictory stance like in the case of AU at first there is all that the Bag bow should go that it will Exercise economic sanctions Yet some members violated those sanctions and went on to supply back bow with arms and Mark funds Then He said that in the event that that did not work. They would use legitimate force in order to ensure that What are as government was Swanine then eventually when another Meeting took place then it was a all again change is now say we are sending another mission to go and try to talk to Mr. Bagbo They are after a very little was happily happening But this are because of the heterogeneity of the composure of the mix that you called a you my view is that as democratization is taking place Among the member state of a you They will become much more and more coherent in the future. So a you actually represent the future of the continent Thanks very much for those clear answers. Let's take another round of questions. Let's have a Connie Freeman Syracuse University Mr. Prime Minister, thank you so much for your very informative remarks It's delightful to see you here in Washington. The last time I saw you was in Kenya Many of your remarks related to the progress or lack thereof of democracy on the continent and Systemically a number of people are beginning to discuss whether there's a problem with Implementing particularly first past the post type elections in African countries and I would be interested in your thoughts on tweaking the system as it were to make it more participatory and more Ubuntu Etc. If there are ways that you can conceive as a politician that the system can be changed to Make it more effective within the African context. Thank you Okay I'm neglecting this side of the room. Let's have a question lady at the front there Hello, my name is Maketa Jirugae and I'm a student at Howard University And my question is just what are some of the current developments and ethnic reconciliation that are going on in Kenya right now And what are some of Kenya the Kenyan government's long-term plans for ethnic reconciliation? And let's take a final question gentlemen right at the end there Good morning, excellence. My name is Alan Icampo. I am with the Orange Symphony and you said a moment ago that I You sent a note or a message to president Alassane Watara To offer mr. Bagot amnesty Given the the violent in the bloodshed that occurred as a result of his cling to power don't you think that I Given him any amnesty would have a dissimilar effect of Emboldening others to hold on to power just like coalition governments do and One more if you don't mind What is your thought about? The presence of a France in the events that led up to mr. Bagot's arrest That has a propelled them to the top of the headlines Along with mr. Bagot himself and mr. Watara. Thank you So we have a question on electoral systems. Do any tweaking in the African context? efforts for ethnic reconciliation in Kenya and then two questions on on Connie the first post that I don't know whether there is a Kind of a electoral system that will be uniquely African Because some look at where we're coming from The the call what is the genesis of this problem? Art independence for example we most countries inherited fairly a Democratic governance structure with multi party systems Then immediately thereafter a school of thought begin to develop that The system which was inherited from the colonial colonial colonial masters was not African That the adversarial system of resolving disputes as is as exists in the West Was alien that the traditional African society provided for Resolution of defenses by way of consensus That was for example single called it a palaver Palaver that people said under the tree and Discasts and eventually a course consensus was arrived at That the multi-party system of governance was an African so Necroma also argued very eloquently along the same lines then they say that multi-partism was a luxury that a young developing countries could ill afford That the gigantic task of nation building required consolidation of efforts And that is how a multi-partism was led into extinction by way of coercion bribery And use of force they call the Opposition was led into existence. So extinction Then they first some of them de facto eventually the jury by way of legislation Now after a long long period of struggle and so on multi-partism was reestablished which basically entails competition in the Political process So that political parties have become instruments for peaceful brokering of competitive ideas and ideologies and In this there's no other way if it's a competition Then there must be some benchmarks You must be a referee And then they must be a winner and a loser This idea that in Africa, I mean political parties are ethnic and so on in my view does not hold what Because People will say if it is led by so-and-so it is the party of those people But we have managed to develop political parties that cut across the country But all the times they will still try to look at all these parties for this because so-and-so comes from this region but even if you go to the United States Even this country the states which are purely Democrats the other states which are purely Republican Generally, if you go to Britain, they will tell you that is a safest labor safe seat And they'll tell you this is a Tory seat Seat, you know, there's a blue and red just like here this country So that's like for example in Kenya There are areas which they are predominantly ODM, which is my party Other areas which are PNU But then there are other gray areas where we compete So what is evolving in our country is not different from what exists here in established democracies But if now is a stronghold and you have what you call homeboy mentality even here Oh That is a They would in that way they will never ever because we have 42 tribes And a leader of a political party must come from one of those 42 tribes so if Because is from that tribe then that party belongs to that tribe Then of course you'll say up. We'll never have then we're going to have for the two different tribes Parties may view so it is basically a perception By the media It is basically used to enhance democracy rather than consiling to society to make the society integrate Ethnic consideration we are actually been working very hard to try to reconcile the communities Which have been Fighting against each other There the conflicts among communities have got different origins For example, you have issue land Which has been a source in some part of the river valley of our country Where you have got indigenous Population versus immigrants those people who came from one area because of land scarcity and then were settled in another particular area and the new constitution has become a very good instrument Of dissolving some of these disputes and historical injustices which have existed for a long time And that's the reason why We are pushing and fast-tracking the process of implementation of the new constitution To be able to resolve the issue of land disputes and give people security of tenor And that people can live and work in every part of the country That you've guaranteed by the new constitution. So the new land bill is now is Before cabinet for approval There are other areas where you've got personal communities who fight over grazing lands. I mean grazing territories cattle wrestling and so on And again those are ones again we are trying to reconcile so that they can live peacefully and disengage from the practice of robbing because it's nothing but robbery Taking properties of other communities using Amminations So we are working with the civil society we're working together with the administration with religious groups And elders of those communities to consign reconcile them and to ensure that they live in peace and harmony The Mr. Bagbos Amnesty Yes, I talked about amnesty because I do not believe that retribution or recommendation will solve the problem of Côte d'Ivoire It will in fact open up new wounds If you look at the results of the last elections By the UN records and other records of other observers The difference was about eight percent In other words, Mr. Watara got about 54 percent of the votes The Bagbo got 46 percent In the first round when there were more than four candidates Mr. Bagbo won by 38 percent Watara came second with 32 percent Then Mr. Badié got 25 percent In the second round Mr. Badié put his weight behind Mr. Watara And that's how he increased his percentage to 54 percent But for the 46 percent is a very substantial amount of votes That basically means that Mr. Bagbo has got support on the ground So if you now begin to try Mr. Bagbo He becomes a rallying point for his supporters Which is what he really don't want in a country That is coming from civil war The civil war will not end That's why we're talking about reconciliation And if you want to reconcile Give Bagbo safe exit Then get some of his people because he'll be sent a number of people Or also a big region of the country Get those people in the government So you play a game of inclusivity That is how to heal the wounds Which are still very fresh in that country France France of course was a colonial master in Côte d'Ivoire And France has a long extensive relationship with Côte d'Ivoire They've got heavy investment also in that country And there are very many French citizens who also live in Côte d'Ivoire Every country acts most of the time in its national interests In the best national interests But here I don't think that France really should be blamed And there is a lot of time Try to put blame on so-called foreigners When we mess up and we are not able to solve our own problems There is no serious evidence of French involvement in this Serious one I was there myself The country was of course divided In the north Was controlled by what you call first novel Who are basically the forces that are Sympathism is a war-tower The south was controlled by Babou's army Or loyal to him In the middle was the UN Baphazone The UN is the one which stood in the middle And then there was also the French But the UN had a much bigger force of 12,000 men strong Compared to what the French had there In the country And then of course there was a statement the ECOWAS had already passed a resolution That they would use Legitimate force if Babou refused to surrender Unfortunately they were not able to because Nigeria which should have provided the troops Are going through elections And Jonathan told me That he will not use the army During the elections because his opponents will use that against him But as soon as they've done elections he will send his troops To Côte d'Ivoire So if if French troops were involved in my view it's positive Because this is a problem that needed to be resolved in my view So I do not really want to see that this is used negatively against France Well we're almost out of time unfortunately So may perhaps just time for one more question and I guess I'll ask it myself Lucky me I get the microphone You've you've spoken about You mentioned the important role of the the United States and the international community in promoting Democracy and good governance in Africa. What are the you spoke also of the need for consistency in actions and words What's the most important thing? What's the biggest gap which the international community in the u.s Can help fill in advancing this objective in Africa. What would you like to See the u.s doing more of in Africa to promote good governance well Already, I think let's talk about the positive side That the u.s has actually has been fairly proactive In trying to promote democracy in some country countries of Africa I'd say for example in my country They have been very much at the forefront each time Uh reminding us of what need to be done And um in supporting a civil society For example, because I believe very strongly that um A strong civil society Uh itself is um a sine qua non for thriving of democracy in a country Um together with an independent vibrant media Um This of course has grown in Kenya um The days when they were able to Come up with what we called a section 2a to make the country a single party Those days the civil society was almost done existent in our country now um the u.s um has also of course um being um supporting the empowerment of women uh in our country and um the involvement of the women um Actively in political process in my view is um a positive sign um but um What I'm trying to say that This message has not been uniform or consistent the u.s um looks at the situation So it is one is uh they deal with it um On a case-by-case basis If you look for example egypt Egypt of course um one of the biggest economies in africa Egypt is a very old country messy But egypt has never known uh democracy um NASA and go over through the uh federal government of king parouk in 1953 And then um Established the rule 1956 a nationalized the swiss canal and became a hero But then stayed on Because elections were held which were basically rituals under 1971 he died and his vice president Anwar Sadat took over And put mr. Mubarak as his vice president And then went on until 1980 when he was killed Mubarak took over and Mubarak then went on Each time elections were being held which were just rituals There are no elections in egypt And nobody really said anything about what was happening in egypt I met with mr. Mubarak last year I was his guest in may last year And he told me that uh this year told you one he was going to do an election and he was going to win And uh if uh what happened in january had not happened Of course, um, he would have won the september elections And he would have been recognized So what i'm saying is that let us go Deep beyond the surface Let's not just be scratching the surface And without looking at what is rotten the rot that is The underneath this really if us did this to really help african democratization Thank you very much. Well, it's been a terrific discussion. Thanks so much Prime minister for being so generous with your time and answering such a broad range of questions We wish you well on on the rest of your visits And wish kenya well on on on facing some of the difficult challenges in in the year or so ahead Just a note before we close If you wouldn't mind everyone remaining in their seats just for a couple of minutes until the prime minister has departed But please join me in thanking the prime minister for his time this morning and uh hope to you again soon Thank you