 You're welcome back to the Breakfast on Plus TV Africa and next conversation here will be about the salaries of federal lawmakers. A few days ago, chairman of the MBA section on Monday, Ubani wrote to the government asking for enforcement of, you know, the judgments that was rich, you know, asking that the federal lawmakers have no right to actually determine their salaries. Mr. Ubani, good morning. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. Good morning. I remember speaking to you a few weeks ago congratulating you on this landmark victory that you secured in the court. So now you're writing for enforcement. Tell us about that. Yes, after the judgment was delivered, which was clearly in favor of my request that the court should determine who actually fixes the salaries and allowances of the lawmakers and the court held that is only the revenue mobilization and fiscal commission that's supposed to do all that. So I now collected the judgment. I certified to copy of it after the Juzun strike was over and then I have now certified the judgment and I did it later to the attorney general of the federation in order to ensure compliance. I also wrote to the revenue mobilization allocation commission. I also wrote to the federal House of Representatives, to the SINEC of National Assembly. So I wrote to all of them bringing the judgment of the court to the knowledge and also asking that the judgment of the court be complied with the court. You remember that the judgment said that the revenue mobilization should now begin to fix salaries and allowances of national lawmakers in accordance with the economic reality in Nigeria. So I want them to actually comply with the judgment of the court. That is the purpose of writing that like I said. Okay, so when you say the ruling says they should now start, does this mean that this wasn't what the law has stated in the past and the ruling has now declared that the revenue mobilization and fiscal commission should now officially start to fix salaries of federal lawmakers? And then also how much money would you say has been paid illegally to these lawmakers in the last two decades? Yes, the position of things has been that the salaries and allowances of the lawmakers has always been very secret. But from the grapevine, we keep on hearing this information that they have been paid so much money, you know, by word of jumbo pay in their salaries and allowances. They were not ready to make it open over time. And then until one senator, Sunny, who happens to be a senator of the federal Republic of Nigeria, came up with the information that they collect monthly, 13 million Naira, and then 200 million by word of constituency projects, you know. So when that became public knowledge, I felt totally agree that this is not right in a country where people cannot afford one square million a day. Of course, we are still struggling with the issue of paying 30,000 Naira as monthly salary to several servants. Meanwhile, a set of people in Nigeria will be collecting 13 million Naira monthly as by word of salaries and allowances. So I needed this to be clarified from the court. Now, there was this conflicting information coming out from the revenue mobilization, who went as to whether they were the one that fixed those salaries and allowances. And they denied it that they're not aware of those jumbo pay. So it became imperative now to look at the provisions of the constitution. What does it say? Who does fix the salaries of public office holders? And it's found out that it is revenue mobilization and I felt okay. If revenue mobilization is the one that does that, they are now saying they are not the one that fixed that. Who did? So what I did now was to join the National Assembly Service Commission also, whether they are the ones that did it. They all denied that they were not the one. Federal House of Red members also denied that they don't collect such a amount of money. The Senate also says so fine. If they all denied and the revenue mobilization said they are not the one that fixed what was let out by Senator Sunny, deny now one they called now to actually determine who should and then how much they should be earning. So that is actually the purpose of what we're going to cause. So they call now look at the provisions of the law and came with the conclusion that it's only the revenue mobilization, fiscal and allocation that's supposed to do the fixing of salaries and allowances of public office holders. And then if they have been doing it illegally, then from now onwards, they should take over that responsibility that has already been assigned to them by the constitution. Then the issue of reform, they called the not one to rely on the newspaper publication in the allegation that Senator Shea was animating because said that it is a newspaper publication, which is clearly inadmissible because so they will not want to use that newspaper publication in the absence of any fiscal evidence of having that evidence that they are collecting such an amount. So he will not make any other as to reform. That was why the order for reform, because I also asked the part of my release that because she asked them to reform all the illegal monies they have been earning from the federation account. So the court said that they cannot rely on the newspaper publication. That was why the issue of reform was actually not upheld. It might be easy to interpret it as maybe even stealing. If nobody has been able to agree that they are the ones who set up the figures for their salaries in the last couple of years, it means that they were receiving or very likely were receiving funds illegally without any approval from the federal government and in accordance to what the constitution says. So would you maybe call that stealing? Yeah, what they called it say is that if it is true that these people are receiving this money because he doesn't want to believe on the newspaper publication. If it's true, found out that these guys have been receiving this money, but they have come to call to deny that they are not receiving it. That he would rather want the economic financial crime commission to come into the matter and investigate and find out whether they have been earning these salaries which they have now denied. And if it's true they have been earning it illegally, then they should commence investigation and possible prosecution. That was actually again what they called said in that judgment. So it is at that point that we are leaving it. But we want to press for that. If it's a country that is actually an honest country where things actually work, I think that EFCC also should be, it should come into this matter now, since they have formally denied that they are not receiving certain amount. Or if it's one that they have been receiving certain amount there of course they're stealing. They have been taking this money illegally because the person or the body that's supposed to fix their salaries and allowances is not the one that fix it. So the best thing is to actually ask them to refund or they will be prosecuted. That would be the right thing. But of course you and I know that the kind of law we have in this country is only applicable to the poor people. It does not apply to the people. But I think that that is not the way to go. And I believe, I believe that this time around that this government of judge will be right, we want to do the right thing. After all of us have been crying that we are paying so much to our public office so that and we are leaving later for us to develop our fiscal infrastructure. Nigerians are not benefiting from the so-called democracy we are practicing. You cannot afford decent accommodation. There is no power. There is no good road. There is no good education. There is no even issue of medical facilities in Nigeria. So why are we using the money we're supposed to use to develop Nigeria in paying few people? And the majority are going to pay empty. So it is important that this matter be pressed to a logical conclusion. I need the assistance of the press. I need the assistance of all well-meaning Nigerians and all stakeholders for us to get this matter addressed gradually. Let's start from the lawmakers, move over to the executive, move over to all other arms of government so that we can have a country that our children would be very proud of. For now, Nigerians are not smiling and that is a truth. So Mr. Omani, I really wonder why it seems like such a big deal to determine the salaries of federal lawmakers because even just to get a new job, you're asked to provide your payslip. So why can't that also apply to the lawmakers if they're claiming that they don't receive as much as 30 million like Sheikh Husani had alleged one time? Also, what is the RMFC saying in all of this? Well, as I said earlier, they came to call and they say that they are not aware of those allowances that is being claimed that these people are earning and they are not the ones that fix it. So that's why now, as I said earlier, I've now written a letter saying, look, if you're not the one that fix the salary, they call it now, as ordered, you know, to now fix salaries and allowances and accordance with economic reality. Maybe this is a starting point, but somebody has to, you know, anide it. You know, all of us have been over time, we're crying, nobody wants to, you know, take the go, right, the party, oh, so I decided to do this, you know, so I said that I need the support of the government itself. Maybe what I should also do is to write to the president and then the minister of finance. These are the two key people I omitted. So I'm going to also write to them in order to bring to their knowledge this judgment, this latest judgment on this issue, so that they should take notice and begin to apply the law the way you ought to, that those bogus or jumbo pay is not clearly, clearly a reflection of our economic reality and it is not done in accordance with the constitution. And then the body that's supposed to fix it is not the one that fix it. So these are issues, you know, we need to. So Barista O'Banni, we know about Nigerian politicians and how they basically disregard cost orders. If they do the same for this one and they go ahead collecting jumbo pay with RMEFC, you know, having zero to zero impute, what then do you do next? Well, I will go back to the same point where I called that judgment and say, despite all this, but you know, let me just answer that. It's important we get to know how much they are earning, which has always been very sacred. It took all these Shaywusani to reveal it. And of course, they came to court and deny, but they didn't come to court with any evidence of any contrary, I mean, any contrary evidence, maybe with a pay slip and say, look, if Shaywusani says we're earning 13 million, we are earning 2 million, look at the evidence of our pay slip, they didn't come to court with that. So as I said earlier, it must take a probably higher authority or the economic financial or even ICPC for them to really know and get to their pay packet and say, this is what these guys are earning. And they are doing it contrary to the provisions of it, so that we can, I need to be helped because I couldn't collect the fiscal evidence myself while they caught. And that is what also what they caught, say that what I was lying upon was only newspaper publication, you know, that I needed more fiscal evidence to show to the court. But how do I do that? When I'm not a member of the house, and none of them would be willing to give you their pay packet, you know. That was my question earlier, Mr. Baristal Bani. Can they be petitioned to actually, you know, produce their pay slip as evidence of what they earn? Yes, the right thing is when economic financial crime, you know, those who come into the investigation, when they do that, then I think that that information will certainly be out because they cannot hide it anymore. That is the truth. All right, Mr. Bani, I know it's not necessarily your office, but what, you know, would you suggest, you know, what range of salary and allowances would you suggest that a Nigerian lawmaker, National Assembly member, should receive taking a close look at our economic realities, like you've mentioned? My brother, you know what much civil servants are earning now. He started 1000 Nigerian minimum pay. I should think that our house, this should even be part-time, I mean, the responsibility should be part-time. There shouldn't be any more than maybe one million Nigerian, or if that, with all the allowances inclusive. Of course, you know the situation of things in the country where, as I said earlier, people go to bed, you know, not even guaranteed of one square meter, but here we are with people earning so much, you know. So I would recommend maybe just a million Nigerian, you know, all inclusive, includes both basically the allowances. That would be my own. That includes the newspaper allowances and the wardrobe allowances and the allowances for the aids. Based on economic reality, one million is, I mean, how many bank workers, how many, this in turn up to one million in a month, you know. Okay. So the point is that they are our lawmakers. So, and they live in a budget where things are very expensive. So I would recommend one million Nigerian. All right. So Baris Al-Bani, how would you think, you know, the RMFC coming into determine the salaries of lawmakers and then slashing it down to as minimal as it should be? How do you think that would, you know, make government unattractive to people or for people who simply are there for the money? The point is that if you really want to have free fair and credible election in Nigeria, who must start with the price of office, what these guys and when they get into office, starting with the governors. These guys have what you call a hindered access to our treasury. The governors and so on, any governor, three months, they become billionaires because they have on hindered access. Our institutions are very weak. So if you really want to have credible election in Nigeria, let's start with dealing with what these guys get when they get into public office. The moment you don't address that issue. These guys, we keep on, you know, disturbing our electoral process. They will keep on, you know, ensuring that it is too, too, too, for you to get in to be too stressful. You have to kill, you have to maim, you have to make sure that you will clear anyone on the way, you know, that for you to get into the office, knowing fully well what is available there. And that is, if you go to, of course, you have to watch American election. You have to watch a UK election. There is not much trouble. People just from the office work into their pulling boat and vote. And people who contest offices are doing well in their private business and they want to come, you know, and they spit what they have achieved in their private, you know, private business in public office. For here, somebody has no beginning, has no second address, comes in and become a multi-billionaire and doesn't have any industry. Meanwhile, he's rated as one of the richest men in Nigeria, no industry, only from the public treasury. So I think when we really define what people should wear, you know, and then make it to be something unactive, I tell you that the best hands in this country will begin to enter into politics in order to, you know, govern Nigeria the way Nigeria is supposed to be. We're supposed to be running and not crawling. We are crawling. And why we are crawling is that we keep on, you know, sending our second 11 or even third 11 to go and represent us. But the first 11 do not have the resources for them to come into power. They don't have the money. And if here is money politics, so why can't we now redefine, you know, our politics? I'm very happy with what I hear this morning about Soludo Imagine as a candidate of Africa. You know, this is kind of people we should be presenting for public office, you know, people who have antecedent, you know, people who have, you know, character, people who have, you know, have managed public office or private office, and you see what they have achieved. We should be presenting our first 11. And I'm not surprised with Anambra. And I will not be surprised if he eventually emerges as the governor of Anambra state. They have always gotten it right in the Eastern region. But when it comes to leadership in the Abia state, you know, Abia of all states, you know, we have always been presenting our worst 11, you know, to go and help this. And that's where we are today. We have not made progress as a state. So I think that all over the country, let the electorate begin to have a mindset that we must redeem this country. And those who have antecedent, those who have character, those who have competence, those who are patriotic enough, should be the ones who send it to the houses of assembly, who send it to the executives, send it to the judiciary, you know, so that we have a country all of us shall be very proud of, you know. So that's what I think. All right. Mr. Abani, it's, of course, a nice place to start from. Hopefully the web catches on, you know, like you've said, the governors, the state house of assembly members, the presidency, and, you know, and everyone who is in a lawmaking position across the country. I believe that, you know, this conversation also includes the number of aides and the number of vehicles and patrol vehicles and police personnel that are attached to these people, because these are all so part of the things that, you know, make the National Assembly cost Nigeria billions of Naira every year. So how fast do you think that this web will catch up on, you know, every other government office, including, of course, state governors, like you've mentioned? I think we should start from somewhere. You know, leadership is very key. Everything rises and falls to leadership. The moment you get the kind of leader we all desire in this country, you will see that all the things will begin to fall in line. When we count people who are not going there to go and steal, you know, they're not interested in the money, but what they want to do is to go and render service. We start from the head. If you have a president that really want to, you know, run this country in such a manner that you begin to, you know, free the money that we, you know, use in paying few people to develop our basic infrastructure, it will start with even with the security vote. I've said it before that security vote has no legal basis. It has no legal backing, but monies have been taking some governors take up to one billion every month as security vote. Meanwhile, we're not secure. Then they take so much money from the local government money. When the money comes into the joint account, they give them money to go and pay salary. Some money to go and pay salary. Meanwhile, they will have them to sign that they have received the full money. Meanwhile, the money will not be given to the local government chairman in order to go and develop their local government accounts. So we have issues with that. We have issue of a world of contract that is no standard. The law is not being, you know, complied with on the issue of tender, you know, you know, people will just use one billion in order to bid one kilometer and a person will use 10 billion. So there is no uniform standard and orders. It's just at their wins and cap prices. So I think that any government that decides the leadership will begin to correct all these things one after the other. And when we really emphasize the issue of money in politics, you know, I can assure you that the people that are competent will begin to emerge. We have so many competent men who have been so well in their private companies, but they cannot come, you know, into public service because the kind of money they have to spend in order for them to win election. And secondly, their lives also will be at risk because of the money that is, you know, being made that is available. There is just so much desperation in the entire process. And that's why we cannot even guarantee credibility in our electoral process because those who want to come in are ready to do a manner of things in order to win election because of the money that is available. So let's not begin to de-emphasize the pigs of office. Let's begin to pay people what they are worth and then encourage the best hands to come into politics. And I think that we can only start with leadership. I think we have the correct kind of leadership in this country. I can assure you, you look at you guys doing so well in your profession, intelligent, but you may not have the money now to enter into politics. You can be a governor in your state, you know, learning the kind of intelligence you have, including the lady, she can be a member of the House, but you don't have the resources for you to win election in your state. All right. Mondeo Bani, thank you so much for, you know, your service and for also speaking with us this morning. We look forward to, of course, more of these conversations and, you know, better Nigeria. Yes, thank you. And we can't stop congratulating you on the landmark ruling. Have a great day. Thank you very much. I'm so grateful. God bless you guys. You're welcome. And bless you too. And Anneta, of course, can be a governor in her state. Yes, Edo 2023. Thank you guys for joining us this morning. My name is Anneta Felix. Remember the name for the next few years for the elections? Remember what? The names for the elections? Mr. Mondeo Bani really gave me ideas, and I'm running with it. 2023, Anneta Felix? Uh-huh. And those state governorship elections? Yes. Or party? Anneta People's Party, APP. That could work. Stay with us. All right. Nine o'clock, the news brief comes your way. I am Osaugi Ogboa. Cheers.