 Hey, Robin. I got a new computer, so I'm like trying to figure it all out. Oh, the new shiny thing. Oh, I don't know how it works. I know I hate that when that happens or a new vehicle. Yeah, if the dashboards were all the same, it would be just so much. Yeah, right. And theoretically I should be able to attach my headphones, but I'm not going to. I'm not going to take that leap right now. Had a mate. Hello, honey. Hi, Pat. Hi, Robin. Hello. How are you? Good. How are you? Couldn't be better. Is it really that color outside your windows? It's beautiful. There was a gorgeous sky before the kind of one of those, those. Religious kind of things where the light rays just came up behind the meadow trees. I wasn't in a position to grab my camera, but it was. It's in my mind. So that's all right. Yeah, sure. It's made with us. So. Their name. I'm trying to figure out where. Hello, Michaela. Hey, I was looking for the. Panelists invite like last time, but all I could find was the public. Yeah. They'll probably promote me. We wouldn't start without you, but. So this is 633. We have a quorum. It's being recorded. There's 11 members in the audience. And I thought it would be one more commission member present, but. Yeah, we're like waiting for Antonia and or. I'm not, I don't know if Madeline will make it, but I thought. Okay. We still have to wait two minutes anyway, right? We do. Yeah, we have to, we should wait. Yeah. I just sent you. Two photos from before and after. The fire of. 18, what did we say? 1879 of the. The Cutler block. I think I have those online in the. Okay. I scan about a half a dozen. Okay. And do we have any pictures of the. I was there today checking it out, but it didn't occur to me to take photos in real time. I tried to Google maps, but they didn't go down there. I think there is one Robin in the, in the packet. Okay. I'm going to miss it. Yeah, I took photos and then I've. So try to get them ready, but. Nate, there's a happy birthday showing up behind you as your birthday. Is it my birthday? It's showing up behind me. Actually, I don't even know what's my background. It's on where your arm is like this when you turn a little bit, there's like something that keeps popping up. It's this happy birthday on it. Oh, it's a bag. It's my daughter's birthday tonight. Oh, okay. Oh my goodness. Happy birthday to your daughter. That's why I have to leave early. We can celebrate at like 830 at night. Okay. I will just she made. She's 12. Yeah. She just getting started at 830. Usually have a late night anyways. So. Yeah. Okay. Well, it's 635 by my clock. It is. So. Should I just go ahead and open the hearing and meeting and all that. Yep. No, I'll know if, you know, if another member or two. For the commission shows up. Okay. I think I have this preamble right now. So it is 635. This is the. October 12th, 2023 meeting of the historical commission. And. The preamble pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. General law C. 30 a section 18 and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 22 of the acts of 2022 and extended again by the state legislature on July 14th, 2022 and signed into law on July 16th, 2022. This public meeting and public hearings of the town of Amherst, historical commission is being conducted via remote participation. Members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via Zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means. A hyper length to the hearing has been posted on the town's online calendar. And then to open it, we have been one hearing or two, Nate's one hearing for two buildings. Sorry about that. That's okay. I was getting my phones. I get some pictures for the building. So it's two separate hearings. Okay. Should we open them at the same time? Like we did before. Yeah. I think that'd be fine. We can, you know, have separate motions close them at different times. So I think that's a good idea. I think that'd be fine. We can, you know, have separate motions close them at different times. So it'd probably be helpful to open them at the same time. So it is kind of the same project. Okay. So I will open both meetings. So in accordance with the provisions of mass general law, chapter 40 a an article 3.6. Oh, of Amherst general bylaws, preservation of historically significant buildings. These public hearings have been duly advertised and notice that there have been posted and mailed to parties at interest. The Amherst historical commission is holding these public hearings to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard. Regarding the following demolition application requests. 45 South pleasant street. Parcel 14 a dash 250 Barry Roberts. Request to demolish rear L portion of the brick building. So with the hearing open, do we move to a presentation by the. Applicants. Is anyone here to represent the application? You could raise your hand. Right. I'll present you to panelists. It might ask you that question. Thanks, Nate. I don't know if Barry's here too. You might want to come over. Yeah. You may have some information about the structure that you want to hear. Oh, you know, hold on a minute. All right. I think if you unmute yourself, you're allowed to talk. Okay. Now. Yeah. Much better. So madam chair, you know, Tom reedy attorney with big and Wilson out of Amherst here on behalf of and with Barry Roberts. For these two. Portion of one of the buildings and in the entirety of the other building. You know, I know Nate's got a lot of the photos and in history. I don't know if he wants to go through that first. I don't know if you want to. I don't know what you'd like to hear from us, but no, we're obviously happy to have whatever discussion you want. I'll take one step back and say. If you don't know Barry, he's a, he's a long time. Amherst resident property owner. Developer. He has recently, when I say recently, I'll probably in the last three years. Moved three different structures. One down to Snell street. From further down South pleasant street. And then two from. Fearing street right at the corner of Fearing and sunset. He moved two of those. One of those went to Hadley. That's the only place he could find. The other one went down to 175 West street and Amherst. So. He also saved rehab. What's now Amherst. So if there's an opportunity to save and. To reuse. He does it. And I think that's why, you know, I think we're going to be focusing on the removal of structures. And I'd like to just remind the commission. That we are retaining that Hastings piece, right? That, that the separate building because it's. And is separate from that L, but that entire facade of that Hastings building and that building. Is being reused. I mean, there's going to be retail space on that first floor. And then the idea is to have apartments above that. And so where it, where it really makes sense, he'll do it. He's looked at preserving both the L and that. Wooden clabber building, the Brown building. And just, it doesn't make sense, you know, that wood building is not ADA compliant. Where it sits in relation to the Hastings building wouldn't allow redevelopment redevelopment would, you know, you need sufficient area and walkways for accessibility. And that building is really right in the way. We've thought about preserving just the facade, but that frankly really doesn't get us. Doesn't get anybody anywhere. Because again, that, that accessibility and the accessible routes that would need to occur in any future development condition. And so, you know, I just want as Nate's presenting the photographs. And I mean, yeah, the building's been there. And it's been part of the streetscape. We're happy. We've, we've also listed it on Craigslist. You know, anticipating whatever this commission is going to do, if we can find somebody to remove it. And whole or in part, at least it would be going somewhere. And, and preserve that way. So we've tried to be thoughtful about it. But in, in this redevelopment, we just don't see a way to preserve either of these, the yellow portion of the Hastings building, or that front building, meaningfully. And while it's always sad to see the buildings go, that's just the evolution of things, if you will. And so, you know, we're happy to take photographs and memorialize it to the extent that we can. And we really did give it a good effort to try to preserve it. So that's just more long-winded than I want it to be as an example of what I'll, I'll turn it over to Nate. Or whatever the commission would like for us to answer. Before Nate goes forward, could you just speak a little bit more about the L and what issues. You're encountering there. Yeah. So that's a, it's a, it's a separate building. It's, it's an older separate building. I don't think it has the accessibility that we would need. There's no elevator. There's no ramp. There's only stairs. And it's just, it's not easily redeveloped, right? Most recent Barry did the center school in Hatfield, if you're familiar with that, if not, you should go over and take a look at it. He did a really phenomenal job, but the infrastructure was there, right? The infrastructure there, it made sense to do it. And I can tell you that if Barry could preserve the building and redo it, I mean, it's, it saves money. I mean, it's not only is it beautiful and there's a whole story to it, but it saves money because you're not taking it down. You got the infrastructure there. And so if he could believe he would. And so, you know, I think with, with that L, that's the problem you're running into plus the footprint that it occupies. And it's just the layout is just not really conducive to that internal redevelopment that you'd like to have. Okay. Nate. Do you want to give staff comments? Yeah, I think I'm going to share my screen and then we'll look at some of the application images. We'll look at 45 self pleasant first. So, you know, this is the L that's visible for everyone. Here's, you know, from the, you know, this shows it clearly. This is when you're, you walk back down the alley and you're looking north. The emmer cinema building is a yellow brick on the left. So it is a separate building. There's a connector to the Hastings block. You know, here's just another view. This is from actually the, the alley behind Bank of America and between the cinema. So this is all the way back, you know, with your, your back against actually South pleasant street. So you're looking, you're looking west here. This is the emmer cinema building here in the yellow. This is the, the one side of it. Here's the. In this side, this side actually is visible from South prospect street. So this would be the, the west facing facade. And so, you know, that's the building. I think that. I'll go to 55 self pleasant as we're looking at it. Here's, it's a two story building. In downtown. Here's a side view down the alley. Here's the back view. And here's again in the front. And so, you know, both of these buildings are, you know, deemed historically significant. So that's why we're here. And, you know, they're, they're mentioned in the national business, national historic district nomination. This building in particular right here is one of the two older buildings, oldest buildings in downtown. It has changed shape and form over the years, but it has been a part of the streetscape for, you know, almost 200 years. The other building, although less visible is visible from South prospect street. And it is, it is also an older structure. And so, you know, I'll walk through what were some historic photos really just focusing on 55. So, my, yeah, let's go to the top. Sorry, I was out of order. So here's the building. This is when it's Kendrick's market. This is actually, this is the one that was used to build, but it's still a little bit more chronologically from earliest to oldest as we go down. So here it was was a one story building. The only existing building remaining right now is, is, is, is this one from this picture. And here's 1879. Here's the building. This is a pretty good view of it. Here's, you know, this is what would be the Hastings building. And here's two buildings that this one is remaining. So this is the one that was used to build this building. And this is the one that was used to build this building. So here's a, a portion on the left side. If you're looking at the, the southern side. You know, the gray change of south pleasant has changed over time. So, you know, the, the road has been brought up. You know, there's been improvements to the common, but, you know, here it is again here. So this has been kind of a steady part of the streetscape. Here it is. This was, this is into the 1880s. So this is the new building, right? This is the old building. This is the old building. This is the old building. This is the old building. And this was what replaced it. Is that correct? Well, so I'm focusing on just the, the 55. So this is. Yeah. Yeah. But that was my understanding that this building here. In the picture that you just have. That you can see that's got the Italian eight roof. And the windows are different. The previous building was lost in the fire. Or. So go back. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But, but the one that's proposed for demolition. Remains, right? So it's not. Oh, oh, okay. All right. So that remained. That's the still the same building that survived the fire. Is that what we're saying? The way the nomination and everything I find is written. It did. So it says it's one of the few buildings that survived. Okay. All right. Thank you for that clarification. Yeah. You know, there's a, like a half a dozen fires in the. In the 19th century. And so they started building brick in the civil war. And after sometimes a little earlier, but. You know, here it is down here, still a single story building. You know, here it is in the 19. 20s and here's two story. And so, you know, what happened, you know, my guess is in the teens, it went to two story. And then Barry has mentioned that in the 70s, they changed the siding. I think that's when the roof changed. And so it was a flat roof building. It was a flat roof building. It was a flat roof building. It was a flat roof building for most of its existence. And then it changed with the front pitch. To what you see today. And so back in the 70s, there was a push to try to make things look a little different. I don't want to, you know, assign to Chris press with the planning director. She's like, you know, almost Scandinavian, right? But like there was some aesthetic that they were. Trying to achieve and a number of buildings around town. And so this is what it looks like today. So, you know, it's changed shape over time. It's formed, but it's been a presence on the street. You know, and it's how, I think in the narrative and application, local brands and local shops, you know, familiar names that have been associated with this. And so, you know, I think that's apparent. The other building, you know, although less visible is still. You know, has, as time mentioned, it's a, it's an older building. It has some really nice brick work, some detail. And it is a separate building from the Hastings building. So structurally. You know, they're connected by. but they don't share the same foundation or a wall. And, you know, I mean, that's, I guess I could keep going on, but I, you know, that's, that's it for now. Hedy and I were at special collections today, just looking at the sand, the sand burn maps and trying to get a little bit more of a sense of the history of that L and also the buildings together. It looks like the L is pretty consistently been related to a building that's related to the Hastings building as, you know, part of that. I mean, it was a market and a dry grocer and then storage. So that's information that we have. Should we move into questions from commissioners states that were around? Sure, yeah. Okay. Antonia. I have a clarification question. So for 45 Pleasant Street, when was that, like, when was that done? It was in the 19, was that in the 1920s? Like that was that replaced the one before or late 1890. I don't think I was fully clear about that. So 45 on the macros record, I think it says circa 1879 because they don't have, dates before the fire. Is that essentially, right? So, but those photos, we know the photos that you have or at least prior to the fire because the previous building is existing in them. So we're looking at what circa 1800 for the smaller building or even further back. No, I mean, I, you know, it's, there was some earlier photographs and it wasn't present. So I mean, it's like, you know, early to mid 19th century. Yeah, it's hard because a lot of things are undated. There's not a lot of records that would pinpoint an exact date. Right, but pre 1879 for sure. Yes. Yeah. Other questions or comments? I have a question. My hand is up. Oh, sorry. That's all right. There was mention of advertising to have the 55 moved. And I'm just curious whether there's a structural engineering report that would support that or not. And aside from Craig's list, is there any other effort to try to get someone to repurpose, to move, to repurpose the features of the building? So if I could, Madam Chair, I'll start with the second piece first. We've actually got some great responses on Craig's list, actually folks who are really interested because it's, you know, we want to be respectful of the commission process. We don't want to tell people, here's the date, come and get it, right? Obviously. So it's been really high level, but there's been, I'd say, six to 10 inquisitions of, can you tell us a little bit more? Do you have a timeline for it? Can we take it apart? Piecemeal, you know, I've been in the building. I don't, I mean, it's got somewhat of a cobble basement. There's, it's like a six foot six in the bit. I would find it hard for somebody to pick it up and actually move it somewhere, to be honest with you. You look at one of the photos that Nate had from today, it's got that fake peak on the top. And on the interior, you know, there's probably some good old wood, old beams are probably in there, but I would find it hard for somebody to just pick up the whole thing and look to relocate it that way. It seems more like a disassembly and then either using portions or probably the best that could be done. If you go inside, there are stairs, which don't, I mean, they're not to code. You've got risers that are, you know, maybe lopsided one way. I mean, in its latest iteration, it was a hair salon, I mean, Caiman's had been in there. You go in there and it's just, I think Barry's word was functionally obsolete. So, you know, Pat, I don't expect somebody to come in and to move the whole thing. It's probably more like disassembling reuse. We had somebody ask for the clabbers for a neighbor's barn because they thought it would be a good reuse because they're older, you know, that type. But we have got, to answer the question, I don't know if we can look if the commission's interested in other avenues to get somebody to do it. That's completely fine, but we've got a pretty good response on Craigslist. And I think we could find someone there to at least take the parts and purposefully reuse them. Thank you. I just wanted to make some comments on 45. It looks to me and I'd be happy to hear other people's input. Like the one thing that it suggests in that streetscape, it reminds me of the Amherst typewriter building that we also looked at, you know, what a time when Amherst had much lower structural height. And so when you look at the building itself, the height says, this is kind of from an earlier time, you know, we weren't building up high at that point. At the same time, I'd be curious, I'm guessing that to me it looks like if we're talking about an issue of preferably preserved, it's really lost a lot of its physical integrity other than its height and its scale on the streetscape. It doesn't seem to have a lot that still tells the story of what it was before. And I just wanted to put that out there. I mean, I would use that as an argument to weigh against this particular preservation of this particular building because I'm not convinced there's enough there of the historic fabric to really need that integrity level. And I would also add that it wouldn't be as concerned about it not being able to be moved because I think a building of that type in terms of being a commercial building, when you move it out of a commercial streetscape like ours, again, it's setting tells a lot about its historical use. And so there wouldn't be, you know, I'm very in favor of the reuse of materials, but I'm not as concerned about this particular building being relocated in order to preserve it for a lot of those same reasons. Oh, how do you have your hand up? I'm sorry. I was just curious based on the photographs that Nate was showing us, that the building when it was one story high had a series of raised steps up to the doorway. And that seems sort of still to be there. Am I right? You know, that you, in order to enter what was the red door salon, you would go up some steps to the door and then in and sort of sort of window on the, what would be the left-hand side. So it seems that that's kind of been a kind of continuity through the changes in the building. And it really feels like a sort of groovy funky vernacular structure. It's very anomalous in a way to much of downtown Amherst. It is a bit like the typewriter building. And it speaks to a kind of diversity that doesn't really strike you when you look at the sort of overall commercial brick Victorian structures that are so handsome. You've got this little funky thing sticking there and having been inside the building and through the fretted instrument shop, you can actually see where the two buildings join at the back. And it's pretty funky. I mean, they've missed it by six inches. So I don't know who built this building, but it wasn't anybody who would still join the week, skills or, it's very, very work a day in quality. Which kind of is intriguing to have a building like that in the downtown. I'm sure when you walk through it, calm that it didn't feel very much like anything. But in a way, that's what makes it intriguing to me as a historian, just as the typewriter building has a really interesting history in terms of who's been selling typewriters out of there for Amherst's history. And so, I'm curious about stuff that is, what I wanna ask you about is actually stuff that doesn't sort of relate to the hearing, which is sort of how the building, how the demolition process will influence what kind of a structure you're making with those two spaces. But I have every faith in Barry because he knows that area so well that that will be considered very carefully. But anyway, I just wanted to mention that about the steps that you can see at the front of the building, the 45. Thank you, Hedy. Pat, Michaela, do you have any comments or questions? I'm not sure about like the historical relevance of it, but I just wanted to know about the mural on 45. Is there any consideration given to that? It's also pretty funky and cool. Yeah. I think for the mural is on 55, is that right? Do I have that right? On the back of 45. Oh, back of 45, okay. I've got them mixed up, I apologize. So, yeah, it is pretty funky. So it was done by an artist that had worked at Hastings. Hastings kind of allowed him to do it, took several years, but the folks at Hastings had had a conversation. And the artist understands the ethereal and temporary nature of street art. And so was fine with it coming down. You know, I think we'd like to, I don't see on a future condition here if the redevelopment happens for that, for a mural to appear, but we're gonna try to find another space to allow that artist to represent themselves. So it's that sort of thought that way. So on building 55, so this is the shorter and stature brown building. Oh, and Nate, you have your hand up. I'm sorry, I should have called on you. Did we have an answer to my question about the none of the exterior is original at this point, right? No, I was gonna say that during the hearing, I was just looking at the nomination form and the inventory form is, and so it both claimed that it was rebuilt after the fire of 78, but they say it was built to have the lightness of what was there before. And so it's really hard to determine, is this a 79 structure or is this part of the earlier structure, right? So there's no really records that indicate that. So what looked like a stucco wall or some wall maybe under the current siding, but it looked like from the 20s picture that it maybe had been, could have had brick on it. So I think the material, the outward facing material, kind of a saw treatment has changed over time. Yeah, I mean, that looks pretty contemporary at this point. It doesn't really, like, I mean, what I was saying before is that it reads to me as the size looks historic, but the rest of it, I mean, the window openings, I guess, but I'm not even sure about that part of it. Does anybody have, and I apologize for mixing up the numbers. Does anybody have any other questions or comments about 55, the smaller of the two buildings on top? I'll share my screen again. So here it is right in the 20s as a two-story. It's right here, that's visible. And as a one-story, let me just, sorry, just want one more. You know, here's a good image of it. And this would have been the rebuilt version if this is accurate after 78, so. And it looks nothing like either of them now. It looks like this today. I mean, they kept kind of the step back entry here. There was the asymmetric facade and overhanging second floor. They kept that, you know, if we, pardon all the scrolling, but if you look here, I mean, it looks like a three-window, three windows across, you know, there's four. It's really hard to say, you know, what's happened over time, right? I mean, I think they've, you know, it was modified over time, right? As needed, things changed and added to it. And it's, you know, so it's probably been, you know, I think it's probably looked like this for the last 50 or 60 years, maybe. Right. Any other comments on that building? Okay. So the brick building, which we're referring to as an L, which is sort of an L because it's sort of its own structure. Questions or comments from commission members? And that's 45, the rear building. Yeah, I'm sharing the screen right now just so you can see that again. And if anybody has raised their hand now. Do you have a photo of the front facade now of it? Well, this, I mean, this is, you know, so there's really no front, right? It's behind the building and then you can see it, I don't know, you know, if you're standing right at the edge of the Bank of America parking lot, you look behind them or cinema. Yes, yeah. You see what you see is that you see this in the distance. So, you know. Got it right, the difference. Got it. Yeah. And if you're standing by laughing dog bicycles, you see the other view. Yeah, I see this. That is the front because that seems to be where things got loaded in and out. It's a little hard to see with the dumpster in the way, but there's a pretty significant door there. And there's, you know, that. I'd emailed myself some pictures, but they're not coming through. So it's okay. But the, yeah, that central area on the left portion of the building with the lintel over top, like that looks like that was some sort of loading door script over now, but to the left. Yeah, right here. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I will offer that this building speaks to me a lot more in terms of its retaining its integrity for its original purpose. It looks from the sandbar maps, like it's been pretty, pretty consistently associated with those market buildings with the dry grocer and 55 as well. And I absolutely appreciate the comments about efforts to the challenge of efforts to rehabilitate and particularly in terms of accessibility. But I have a harder time. I have a harder time with this one from my non builders, but historic preservation perspective, wondering what might be achievable and whether this meets the commission's bar for preferably preserved. It is a space that you, when you go into that space and you have Laughing Dog, I mean, that's an old historic building back there. There's a sense of history going on in that area. And I'm leaning in a different direction on this particular building, but this is where it gets challenging considering the putting a demolition delay on to see if there are other avenues for repurposing that really would be feasible. It's not, I'm not taking that lightly. So yeah, I was gonna say that here's 55 and then here's 45 right here. And this is the 1887 Sanborn maps. And so it, there's probably six or seven series of Sanborn maps up through the 1930s. And these are always present. The labeling may change, but right there pretty consistently shown. And this was the catalog, when the building is rebuilt, it's the catalog. And I don't remember, it's color. Yeah, yeah, business. You can see it right there on that. Nate, can you enlarge that at all for us? Yeah, let me just, great. Is that better or? Yeah, that's wonderful. So you can see Laughing Dog and the little tin smith on the back, which is appears to be dark in every map that I looked at. And you can see the back ale, which is really two sections in the 1887 Sanborn. And I think at one point, I noticed it had some kind of heat source, because of course, Sanborn would have been really interested in that, in that space. Yeah, I walked with Tony, who owns Fretted Instrument through his whole space there. And it's pretty cool in the back. There's a workshop space that he uses to repair musical instruments that has a barrel vault ceiling. These things are fantastic. So there's some question about whether that was a performance space at some point. I've got some correspondence with a butter that suggests that might have been a place called Sweetser Hall. Difficult to confirm all of that at the moment. I took a photograph and heard about it from people who've been in that area for a long time. So there's a sort of a strand of all history evidence that I'm trying to respect at this point in the process. And I'd like to know more about that. Like to kind of track some of that stuff down if possible. And so like Robin, I feel this building is a little bit more complicated. Thanks, Steve. If I could, maybe just what you showed on those sandborn maps. And I don't know if you have a current aerial, like if they pull up Amherst maps or something, just to compare the two, because they appear different. You'll notice today that there's this different back piece on it. So just to compare them side by side. And then... Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but just to jump in, Heddy and I don't have them in front of me, but Heddy and I looked at the succession of the maps. It does change a little bit. I think that footprint might show up in a later map. So... Yeah, so here's the current structure now. Is that visible for everyone? And then, so I was just jumping around on the sandborn maps. Here is the 1896 sandborn map. So it says now this is labeled meat for 55. Here's 45. It still has what, you know, still similar to 1887, you know, little change in stairs. And I can, you know, I can go back through the directory if we want. Now we're back in 1910, yeah. Show it. Oh, and I forget which one it is on this one. Let me just see which one it comes up as. I was told that the stairs got added so that people could go into this performance space without going into the rest of the building. They could just walk down the alley as it were and up some stairs. And there is still, there is still material evidence of that in that back space that's used as a workshop. So here it is now, I think in its current form. Oh, a little bit more similar, yeah. And I think maybe, Madam Chair, one of the other things to consider is the proximity of this building to the property line and just what that means for meaningful redevelopment. Plus the size of the space that exists currently and what would have to be done to bring it up to today's code. And I don't know, Barry, I don't know if you wanna talk a little bit about, because I'm definitely not a builder, just what that entails. Because if we're talking about, right, so if you're gonna put a one year delay on and say it's preferably preserved, it should be something for a purpose to say can something happen there? And I'm just not, like I said in the intro, I'm just not convinced that it can. So Barry, I don't know if you wanna talk it all about the structure and what it would mean to redevelop it. I guess I could say that the problem with it being so close to the property line is being able to get windows. I mean, there is some windows there, but to do what we're proposing to do, the windows probably don't line up anywhere near. And if floor levels don't line up now with the interior of the Hastings building, there's stairs that go everywhere. And I don't know how you correct that and make them, put ramps in and all that to make them, because we wanna use the new building that we propose to build in conjunction with the front building. And they don't line up now at all. Okay, thank you. This is where, and we have two pretty new commissioners here. And I mean, even I feel like this gets challenging because our directive, I'm just looking at our bylaw is to give a designation of preferably preserved if a demolition authorization would represent a loss to the Amherst community. And we're not kind of given, we're not giving power to make those decisions because we're not builders. We're here to kind of vote for the building. And at the same time, really understand where you're coming from. And so one of the advantages of the fact that there's demolition delay is that eventually, if nothing's possible, a delay will expire and development can go on. So I'm just trying to give myself and my commissioners a sense of what our charge is here in terms of deciding on this building and everybody can have their own opinions. But what we're not deciding about is whether we think it's, if we lack the technical know-how to understand how feasible it is to redevelopment and whether or not we do think it would be valuable to give time to explore that option further, I think. Maybe that's a good way of saying it. Is that, Nate, am I being clear? Is that helpful? Yeah, I mean, I think the idea of a demolition is it's more due diligence time. So whether it's documentation, research, possible reuse, I mean, in the spectrum of preservation, it would be preserving it on site, maybe reusing it, moving it, and then down to saving salvaging parts. But I think it begins with some a little bit more research and documentation. And so, Heddy's brought up a few interesting facts that it's through the research that I've done, something that isn't, it's not described very well. And so, even on the inventory forms for these buildings, they're just like, yeah, they're historic. There were some fires and Amherst and they were rebuilt and they've been here since, for 140, 50 years. And so, and because of that, and also because it was some of the same families, there just wasn't a lot of, the buildings and the properties didn't change hands a lot. There's not a lot of deed research that can be done. So if this stayed with Caymans and Kendrick and certain families for 100 years, then there's really not a lot of documentation about what's happening there. We don't have any permit records that go back that far. I mean, we can chase it through some vital records that are available through the clerk's office and everything, but that takes some time. I mean, that's gonna take some more research. And so to me, a delay would allow that research. The bylaw also allows for lifting of a delay if a bona fide efforts been made to seek a different solution than demolition. And so we provide that for an applicant. Yeah, so the applicant can come back at any time when they feel they've thoroughly exhausted their efforts. Is that correct, Nate? Right, yep. So even if you had a 12 month delay imposed, the applicant could come back and conceivably the historic commission could lift the delay if they felt due diligence had been done. Right, and it could be that, Pat's asked about an engineering report for 55, the building on the street. And so, is there an engineering report? Is there quotes from contractors in terms of the viability of salvaging or moving or whatever options there are available? And so those are the efforts that would be presented back at the commission. And that's helpful just if I could before Antonia jumps in. I mean, cause I was gonna say, sure you can do all the research in the world, but to what end if it's just not going to be viable? And because I think from our perspective, it just isn't and it's maybe just a matter of proving. And if it is by, I mean, we've looked at it. And like I started with the intro, if it would be, we would be having a different conversation here, but it's helpful to hear what sort of things the commission would be looking for in order to provide additional evidence that here are the impediments to redeveloping this. And I wonder if the commission would, I mean, it won't take, frankly, very long to pull those things together because we've already done it, right? We've already thought about it, we've already said, what are the, we've had architects in there, we've had the structural engineer in there, we've looked at reuse of the property, how Barry mentioned they don't line up and we can document that. I don't know if the commission would entertain a shorter delay. I mean, we, or we can be back in a certain period of time. If you're gonna impose a delay, we'd say start it now, just so that time starts going. But I think, I mean, for us, that's the way we're thinking about it. Okay. So for the sake of time, does anybody have any other questions or comments substantive wise? If not, we could move on to the point of making a motion for each of these properties. But I think we need to have some public comment too. Right? Right. And Tonya sells her hand up. And I'm sorry, Antonia. Feel free to speak up. No, I'm not. No worries. Today. I was wondering, this is questions for you. So we have, our options are to either delay, approve, or is there another option? Sometimes we have, we, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nate, we move the issue to the next meeting to give more time for research. But I think what we're talking about is doing that kind of research if we were to impose a delay. So. Right. The commission could continue the hearing to a date certain, you know, a month from now to allow for more information. Or if we feel that there is, you know, enough information to make a decision, it could be made tonight. So there's, you know, you could continue. You can, you know, allow demolition. You could impose a delay. Thank you. Any other comments from commissioners? Okay. Then we should go to public comment. Yeah, there's 11 attendees still. If anyone wants to speak, you can raise your hand. I didn't receive, you know, I received a few phone calls and some questions, but I haven't actually received much in the way of comments. You know, there was a few articles in the paper, but I haven't received anything. So I'm not seeing any hands raised. We could ask one more time. Okay. One more time. If there are any members of the public who wish to speak on demolition permits before us on 55 and 45 South Pleasant Street. No, I don't see any hands being raised. Okay. Here's one. Hi, Sharon, you can unmute yourself. Am I unmuted? Yes. Thank you for all of your thoughts and considerations. My name is Sharon, Pobanelli, Meir, and I are the owners of the Mercantile 45 South Pleasant Street. And I appreciate your thoughtfulness about these buildings, both of these buildings. I myself have gone to work there for 30 plus years. And if anybody has feelings about those buildings, certainly I do. And to Tom's point, you know, as we discussed how to preserve as much as possible that area of town, that area of my life and Mary's life, it was pretty gut-wrenching to have to consider taking down the L. And I know that your commission, as you stated, your charge is not to figure out whether things are viable one way or another. You're speaking for the building. And I can tell you that there's a big part of me that speaks to that building and is, you know, I would be the first one in line if there was a way to preserve that and still preserve the front portion of the building, I would be right in that line. It's just, you know, I just wanted to make those thoughts and just I appreciate how you're thinking about it. And I just want to let you know, as Tom has said, you know, we'd be happy to provide anything you want, that what we've done to figure out how to preserve as much of that as possible, the streetscape as much as possible. Thank you. Thank you. I see no other hands raised at this point. So we will close public comment. And I have the issue of both demolition applications before us. So I'm going to go ahead and make a motion. And I believe that the procedure is motion second, discussion vote. I'm going to make a motion to allow the demolition permit for 55 South Pleasant Street. And that's based on my feeling that the integrity of the building doesn't meet the standard for it to be a significant loss or the community. So the motion is to allow demolition for 55 South Pleasant. And Micaela, you're raising your hand. Yeah, I'll second the motion to approve the demolition of 55 South Pleasant Streets. So we have a second, do we have further discussion? Feel free to raise your hand or just go ahead and speak for a pretty small group today. Nate, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I was going to just throw out there that it is a two story facade along the street. And so I think that whether or not the treatment of the facade has changed, the presence of the building along the street has been there. And so there will be a loss, a visual loss along South Pleasant Street, where there's a pretty consistent setback. Buildings are cheek and jowl with each other. And so I think that is going to be an impact on the street to lose that. So buildings can change and this one has. We saw the picture, so it's three different, possibly four different styles and facades treatments over the last 100 and 50 plus years, but it's been a, you know, it has been a consistent streetscape element. So that's just something I want the commission to consider. Antonia. I guess going off of Nat's point, I would say I would move for a delay on this on 55, due to the fact that I think there is a significant loss on despite the buildings change throughout the last 150 years, it has maintained this unique scale that I don't think should be minimized as like only the scale as it's one of the, probably the only building on that streetscape that is like this integral to Amherst towns, like when you enter, that's what you see and what is like the advertisement for the town and is one of the only ties we have to a time when those buildings were low. And I think that has a large impact on what the community is going to see from the common, from even city hall, looking on that South Pleasant Street. Thank you. Pat. I'm pretty much of the same mind as Nate's point and Antonia's that I think that a delay would allow an opportunity to either move or repurpose the building, it will change the streetscape from, you know, 100, what did you say, 150 years or so. And so I'm not opposed to a vision for the future but I would like that building documented more fully and it's history document for the mass historical commitment before it would be demolished. Thank you. Patty or Michaela, discussion points, no? All right, so we have a motion before us to allow for the demolition. I would have said the only other comment I have is that we did allow for demolition of a similar small building where Amherst typewriters of that building area. So for similar reasons, but it sounds like we're ready for a vote. So the motion is to allow the demolition permit. If the motion fails, I'm assuming we would look for a second motion to approve it or do it was that what happens? I think we had a motion fail in my time before. Yeah, if the motion fails, it can be another motion made. All right, so I will go ahead and do a roll call vote. So the motion is to allow for the demolition of 55 South Pleasant Street. I am an aye vote. Pat, I'm sorry. Pat, did you have another comment? Your hand is up. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't put it down from before. That's okay. Okay, so. Sorry. I'm gonna say no. All right, Michaela? Yes. Okay, Antonia. No. Okay, and Heddy? Unmute, my dear. Heddy? Sorry, I'm a no. Okay, so the motion fails. So do we have a motion to impose a demolition delay and what time period if such motion is coming before us? I'm very amenable to what Tom said about, does it have to be the whole delay as per the bylaw? I mean, maybe we don't have to stick with that. It doesn't. We can pick a time period up to 12 months. Yeah, I knew you would know. If you wanna make a motion, I'm not sure what a good time period would be. Also with the caveat that the applicant can come back even if we impose six months, they can come back at any time and request the lifting of the delay. So I had my hand up, Robin. I would like to have a motion that there would be research, that there would be documentation, that there would be continued efforts to salvage some of the building or move it, which the moving doesn't sound very feasible. But just to have a delay so that the developer can come back to us with that information and more information filed with the Mass Historical Commission about the building. I think generally, I'm just trying to think this through here, generally when we allow a demolition, we put a condition on it. I think if we're going to put a delay on that, some of it puts the onus on us to do research. Is that true, Nate? I think it's a little both. If the applicant would like to have the delay lifted, they would do the research that Pat mentioned that's been discussed. So I think it's, they're here tonight, Tom and Barry are here and they're listening. So I don't necessarily think we need to condition delay motion. I think it's just, that would be the bona fide effort to try to get it lifted earlier than what could be voted. If I could, Madam Chair, just one thing. So I mean, we've been listening on Craigslist for about a month. And so like I said, I don't think anybody's gonna lift the whole thing and move it and people are asking about when it can happen. And so if there is a directive to us to provide additional information, I don't think that would take photographs. We can do all of that. But we'd like to, if there is some preservation of the materials, we'd like to be able to give people while they're kind of on the line, the ability to say, okay, at this day, it will be available. And then we can figure out who's real, who's just coming out of nowhere and just to rattle rattle. So, if that's 30 days, 60 days, something like that, I think it's not a very hard turnaround. There's a lot of information that was provided. I know, and we can provide some more. I think most of it has been provided. So that's coming to us. Thank you. Nate, can I just ask your recommendation? Do you think three months would be reasonable? Two months? Oh, I wouldn't go any shorter than three months. Okay. I mean, we say it doesn't take a long time, but if someone's busy for a few weeks and we'd like to get a written report, or, you know, I just, I don't wanna, you know, they can always come back sooner than that, right? So, I mean, we could say six months, and then, you know, they could come back in three and it could be lifted. It's just, you know, I wouldn't short change this to, you know, just because I mean, things always seem to take longer. Yep. I hear what you're saying. All right. In that case, I'm gonna go ahead and make a motion again. I'm gonna make a motion to impose a demolition delay of six months. And I need a second. I second. Okay. So Antonia has seconded any discussion for this motion. This is 55 South Pleasant Street demolition delay period of six months. During that time, the applicant can return to us and ask that the delay be lifted if we feel we've exhausted the possibilities and obtained the research that we need. And so the clarification would be that we're doing a delay of six months to give the applicant time to return to us, but they could return to us at any point within that six months. Okay. So any other discussion? We can go to a vote. Okay. So we're gonna have a roll call vote again. I'll start with Makayla. The motion before us is to impose a six month demolition delay on 55 South Pleasant Street. Yes. Okay. Heady? Yes. Antonia? Yes. Beth? Yes. And I will vote yes. So that motion passes five, zero. Delay imposed six months on 55 South Pleasant Street with the ability of the applicant to return to the historic commission for a request to deal with the delay. Okay. Do we need to close that hearing, Nate? Oh, you're Nate, you muted. Yeah. You can have a motion to close the hearing or if they're open simultaneously, you could see what happens with the other, you know, the other building. Okay. I'll just keep it open for now. I'm mindful of the time and the fact that I lose Nate at eight o'clock. He's my lifeline, so. Okay. So 45 South Pleasant Street and we have entertained public comment for both buildings since both hearings are open. Does anybody else have any further discussion or want to put forward a motion for the demolition application for 45 South Pleasant Street, the L at the rear of the building? Someone be brave. Okay. I'm going to put forward a motion to issue a six month delay on this building as well. Same situation as for 55 South Pleasant Street. Six month demolition delay for 45, the rear L 45 South Pleasant Street with the ability for the applicant to return to request a lifting of the delay. Do I have a second? I second. At seconds. Is there any further discussion? Okay. Then we'll go toward a roll call vote. I will start with Antonio voting for a six month demolition delay on 45 South Pleasant Street. Yes. Aye. Okay. Heady? Yes. Is that Mikayla? Yes. Pat? Yes. And I vote yes as well. So that motion passes five, zero. Okay. At this point, can we close the public hearing? We need a motion to do that. Okay. Somebody give me a motion. Okay. So moved. I have a second. Second. And vote. I vote aye to close the public hearing. Both public hearings, Pat? Aye. Mikayla? Aye. Antonio? Aye. Heady? Aye. So the public hearings for both properties are closed as of 7.39 PM. Thank you to the applicants for entertaining us with your information. And I assume Nate, do you have any more comments regarding? No, no, I mean, I think, you know, we can be in touch. I think, you know, it's, you know, if we'd like to do a site visit, we can coordinate that if we want to do any more research. Yeah, I think that's something that we, you know, in the next few months, we, you know, the commission as well as the applicant can undertake that. Great. Thank you very much. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Have a good night. You too. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So moving on to the public meeting portion of our meeting. Announcements as the next item on the agenda. Nate, do you have any announcements? No, I will say right. I have to leave around eight o'clock. We are meeting next week to just continue the discussion of the Jones library and the relationship to the preservation restriction. And so I've asked for some updated information. I get to receive it, but, you know, that is a week from tonight. And, you know, it could be noted later in the agenda, but I just wanted to remind everyone now that, you know, next Thursday we will meet with the Jones library. It's the only topic on the agenda in part because there's a lot happening with the site and a lot to review in terms of the preservation restriction. So, you know, nothing, you know, the packet from last month will be it's the same unless I get new information. I'll get that back online and share it, but you can always review it. And if you have questions, let me know in the next week. Okay. I just want to let everybody know that next week I'm going to start working a new job with the Massachusetts Historical Commission. So it doesn't affect my position on the commission, other than I may have to recuse myself here and there, depending on what comes before the commission. But that's my update. Anyone else have any? Congratulations. Thank you. Okay, no other announcements. We can move on to our next agenda item, which is the update and discussion of the preservation plan and the presentation by the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission. I know that Shannon is in the audience. And then Ken as well. Ken, I'm going to... Ken, I was going to promote you to panelists as well. Right now I'm having a little trouble doing that. Hi, Shannon. Hi, and Ken Komiya should be... Oh, there he is. Yeah, my... Yeah, it was slow. I don't know, my computer's a noise slow lately. I'm not sure what's happening. Hi, Ken. Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming. Nice to see you guys. Good to see you all too. It was very interesting listening to the hearing. Yeah, Shannon and I were texting back and forth, and I said I've never been through a public hearing of this nature, so it was kind of neat to see it in action. It was really civil tonight, so it was a good... Oh, that's good. Well, I'm sorry that I got you the draft. I was hoping to get it by Friday, but as we got a little breathing space with the end date for this, I started adding more things, and then it was hard to stop. So what I had emailed to Nate, maybe he forwarded you the body of the email, but related to this draft, we wanted you to see some of the things that we added and look at the formatting and see if it makes sense, and it's easy to read the way that we've started to set it up. Just basically get your comments on what we have so far. We put in some of the action steps and just started adding some of that so if there's anything that you say that doesn't make sense, or if you feel like there's anything missing, this would be great for you to share that with us now. I'm ready with my open word document to take notes. And happy birthday to your daughter, Nate. I will say that it's what a phenomenally large document. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that I put like the plans, we can move some things to the appendices. So it won't be so wordy. So anything I wanted you to see it all, but if there's things that we need to shift, and we'll have an executive summary, one page, when we had talked early on, Nate had said, could this be something that could be pulled out as a standalone document? So we'll streamline things as we get towards the finish line. One of my first questions was, as I was dealing it as a PDF, I was wondering if it would be possible for me to get a word version and do a track changes and a word version. Yeah, I could do a Dropbox file. Yeah. And then trying to get a gazillion comments over Zoom meeting. But one of the things that I did want to add was one of our accomplishments is that we do have our barn and outbuilding program funded. We haven't distributed any funds yet, but we got CPA to approve. I'm trying to remember. I think it was $10,000 for assessments for barns and outbuildings in the accomplishment column. Noted. That's great. Yeah. And I, I, Reverend, I just wanted to add that I would appreciate tracking changes. Okay. Sure. Thank you. It was very hard for me to send it to you with it not being finished. But yes, absolutely. So I think, yeah, we could set up. We're not, we can't use Dropbox from a town account. Yeah. I think that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was surprised when I saw it. I was like, Oh man. It's longer than it was a while ago. But. I do like the format and the flow. So. I think it reads well, you know, the previous plan. I know something about it seemed, it seemed more dense, even if it was the length is similar. It's something about how it was structured, you know, visually or something. I feel like this can be kind of a quicker read. And, you know, I think for the commission, I mean, some of it is, you know, looking at the action steps and, you know, we had a, we had talked about what was, you know, Ben in my position said, well, you know, what are parts of Amherst that could be explored that weren't really researched well before. And what really are, you know, concrete action steps that can be taken, you know, their short-term long-term goals. But I think, you know, what's nice is having that because you know, the preservation plan before to me felt like it was a great Catherine in the history of Amherst. And then it had kind of broader things that commission can do, but not having it specific to Amherst. And so the commission was left saying, okay, well, what does it mean to do this? Right? So how do we implement local historic districts as a preservation tool? And it's like, okay, well, you know, we're doing that now. But, you know, it took actually more research to then say, how do we implement local historic districts as a preservation tool? And it's like, okay, well, you know, we're doing that now. But it took actually more research to then say, how do we get that going in Amherst? And so, you know, the idea here would be, let's have this be something that speaks to, you know, actionable items in, you know, a year or two years, five years or something that we can refer to a little bit more easily. Yeah. And as I was going back through, it helps me to take notes during meetings because as we all, you know, we're all at home or, you know, it's late at night and then you forget some of the things. Christine at the planning board meeting had said, as a final kind of comment at the end, perhaps this could be, this plan could be something that's adopted attached to the master plan. So we put that as an action step because the common theme, especially from the municipal stakeholders was we need some type of guidance on how to make these decisions. So it's, if it's something that's formalized, I think that would be helpful. Visually formalized and, you know, not just you all know what it means and we can Google what the standards are, but something that is part of the Amherst, you know, documentation. One other thing that crossed my mind, it was really pleased to see the focus on expanding histories in terms of Indigenous populations and African-Americans. And I don't, I have somewhere here, a document on integrating LGBTQ history. That might be something of the commission to add in terms of diversifying. I don't think that we've had that focus before to find. Yeah, there is mention in there. Because Joe Hagopian, who's a planner here now, he had started to delve into that. Just trying to, trying to, and this is an interesting thing I threw in as an action step, which I'm curious of your take on this. We're hearing from a lot of communities. We need to have a broader history. We need to recognize all of our residents, but as I was starting to do research on this, I realized that's kind of outside of the scope of this project. Because the reason we don't know is because it, there's not a lot of documentation. So I threw in there an action step of pursuing. A town history, updating the town history that, that could be a separate project for a historian. And so I think that's kind of, you know, when we do these types of projects, we're always looking at these histories that were written in the late 1800s, early 1900s. It's kind of the primary resource for this, you know, the history, the history of an area, but there's, the information is not in one place. So it might be a neat thing to, to have that as an action step for the community to really. Formalize that process and write that history so that it's more, and beyond the scope of your commission, but can help to inform decisions that you have to make in your roles. Any other comments? Yeah. I'm page and Shannon. And, and. Where you start the MS community profile and historic context. It's a bit of, it's nice to get that sort of general paragraph going first and then you jump to European settlement. Could we please add a paragraph in between those two that talks about the indigenous landscape so that there isn't such a big kind of jump in the sort of chronology and the sort of sense of inclusivity as well on between that first and second paragraph. That's page 10 because it exists when you get not to not to plug a dead horse, but if you go to the next page, it's all there. I think it's just nice to, to say we're going to talk about this in, and here's, here's, here's sort of the, the setup, you know, right from the beginning. That was, that was the only thing that really stood out to me. I really love the plaque program idea. Page 43 that we're going to do a nomination for the Mill River Trail corridor. Okay. I think, I think, I think you've identified some really good action steps. It's a little daunting commissioner. You know, there's all this, you know, stuff to add. I remember that comment early on was, please don't give us things that we can't ever achieve. So I, this, this Ken and I are still working on this and we'll work on this with you, but we do this in our other plans too. We try to identify kind of the stakeholder, the group spearheading it, but there have to be partnerships involved in getting anything done. So I try your, you won't be the lead on every idea. It really made me think about what you say on page 46 about resiliency planning. What an interesting idea. I mean, I'm very late to the table on all of this, but that was a really great phrase. I think to start, just to think, well, what are our priorities? You know, what does resiliency really mean there? Is it about staffing? Is it about, you know, whatever it handles. You know, it just seemed to me to be a by word to kind of hold everything together. Yeah. That's, I'm, that's a good point about staffing because it's not just the resiliency of the physical buildings, but it's also the capacity of the community to be able to support everything that you're trying to do resilience. I attended this. So, and I'm going to go back to you Increase St. And then we have the hostess, which you'll see referenced in here, coordinated statewide emergency planning Massachusetts. I apologize if you're hearing it echo. It's coming in and out of where I am. But it's, they, statewide cultural resource map and they put a lot of toolkits on their website to think about planning. And one of the presenters was the curator of a historic property in Salem, and he talked about how he had just worked with the fire department showed them where the important maybe collection most important area where collections were in their building. And they had that kind of conversation in advance. When it wasn't an emergency and then there was a fire and because that was in the books, they knew, okay, we really. There's maps in there from the 1600s like we so it's just to put that in a plan I think is important. For a community to then work with the building inspector work with the local emergency responders. I'm the planning department to think about this in advance. Okay. If we had, you know, a flood come through here or a tornado, like in months and where or what, how could we move some of these collections to a more resilient area. So I'm glad that you like that because I think we're seeing every master plan we work on starts with a municipal vulnerability. What is that called can MVP MVP. Municipal vulnerability preparedness. Hard to say that at eight o'clock at night right so yes so resiliency has to be part of the conversation because months in with that tornado, going right down their main street. We want to have those conversations and thoughts before. Thanks, honey. Michaela comment. I guess my comment is a lot more. Not about the content but more about the formatting the community feedback survey that starts on page 31. There's some like repeated. Answers on different charts but like the color and order of the answers is not consistent so it was really confusing to me. To understand what people were saying because the colors are not correlated to each other on each chart. Okay. So, okay, that's helpful. And the. Some of the comments that I put in the appendices we don't have to have them all in there but I wanted you to see the broad range of write in responses. That was more towards the end I did a lot of quotes of people, you know, do you have any other comments. People have a lot of comments. There was only we had 124 responses for this survey. But the people who responded, they really, you know, put thought into what they were. They were writing meeting. So if you haven't had a look at that, it's there for you're viewing pleasure. So yeah, I think that, you know, when, when this is finalized, I like to have having the penises as one document, and then the plan is one but then also having having them combined and we could have it all online but, you know, just so someone doesn't think it's, they have to read 100 and plus whatever how many pages of being it's just, you know, but I think having appendices, I like having, you know, having it both ways. And I'll also in the table of contents, it'll be linked so it can jump to those sections. Yeah, so in the planning board had this discussion. It was a while ago. It was interesting. A lot of members were talking about, you know, the preservation of the bill form, right. What was happening tonight with the demolition review, and maybe the settlement patterns of village center is an open space. I do think that the preservation can be broader and so, you know, we've been looking at different members for to fill vacancies for different commissions and, you know, I think making history accessible is really relevant today and so, you know, I think some of the programs are trying to do and what the plan has is really important so, you know, I feel like education can be preservation and, you know, and it's still something that we have we struggle with you know how do you educate the public how do you make things more kind of relevant and, you know, accessible and so it's a to me I also help with housing right affordable housing it's the same kind of thing. You know when it's in your backyard you might talk about it but in general people might not. They might say they support affordable housing but when it really matters there, maybe there's a lot of questions or comments or concerns and so, you know, I like, you know, I'd like to be able to have this and put it online and I think adopting it to the master plan is great. You know I'd like to take some of these action steps and say can this be folded into any budgetary process with the town or capital things and really try to switch that's newer right I think it's really, it'll be really relevant and how can we keep furthering it. After it's done so I like, you know, like I like way structured and I like what we can take from it how we can. Great. Thank you. You have a lot of good quotes, making history accessible is relevant today. Education can be preservation. I bolded that one. Thank you that's very helpful. Yeah, the former chair used to say that all the time, you know, we, you know, he's gathered paid or two out of certain books and email the commission and it's like, you know, like a problem. What is the message from everybody we spoke with was we, they're trying to understand what's the process what are we looking for what and something you said tonight earlier about the press, what is the commission's designation of preferably what it's somebody somebody in one of the things that this is very industry specific language and I remember attending a some preservation mass conference a few years ago and they were like you have to you can't like speak preservation talk because you're going to lose people so it is a fine line of not talking, you're not talking over people's heads because these are all terms that we have to use when we're assessing things but that that meeting in the middle where you're making it more of it's a it's a community benefit to save these buildings it's not just this small group of people who don't want anything to change. So trying to find that strike the balance, but making it a conversation instead of talking at people. That's the goal of this plan. Next time you see it, it's going to be just right. What is the timeline. So we've extended we just sent the amendment. Nate just got that like just a few hours ago. We've extended the end date to December 31. And I think we've done the full outreach process and reach different groups that we feel comfortable with what we're recommending. I'm hoping I would like to give you the next draft with your comments and the rest of the missing information before your November meeting, although do your meetings kind of float with that. Would that be about four weeks from now or do we have it in the calendar and I don't think we have November. So I'd like, you know, about four weeks from now to give you the revised version with your edits after you've had a chance to track changes in a document. And then we'd like to then take that version and ideally have the final version by mid December and give it a little bit of time and space so that whoever else you want to look at it can make comments. I'm sorry. And Tony, did you have a question. Yeah, I was just a comment on the history aspect of it. I was wondering, I mean obviously it's a non finished draft but I was wondering if there is information about like the names of some of the enslaved members of the Amherst community that would be included. And then I was wondering if in your like researcher compilation of research whether there was anything about like the proximity of Amherst or the inclusion of it in the underground railroad because I know like Northampton and Florence had large aspects in the underground railroad so I was wondering if that would be something that you looked into for Amherst's history. So thank you for those questions so we did include some of what we found about the, and I'm still now trying to figure out because as I'm researching more African American has shifted towards the black indigenous people of color and trying to decide this is how we started realizing this is so much bigger than this project trying to fill in these holes but then also to explain the entire history of Amherst. So my goal is to put as much information as we can on this missing, but also make recommendations for what could be further researched and that's my pie in the sky idea of why not we should be writing a proper history and filling in those blanks as much as possible. Thank you. And the underground railroad piece I'm, I haven't come across that but I wouldn't be surprised I know the Mass Historical Commission did a related resources type documentation but there's not a lot of buildings that they they finished all the way. I'm confirming that they were. I know we have one in Springfield for example, that was supposedly part of the national of the underground railroad but it's not documented that way it's just kind of local lore. So that would be something that we could point out to research that was something that happened in Amherst. Shannon, when would you like our tracks changes by this deadline. deadline. Yeah, I'd say. Well, I'll email this tonight but I'll give you, you know, a week, week and a half, two weeks. It would be great to have something towards the end of the month so that Ken and I can then finish and in the meantime I'll keep filling in the missing sections but comfortably, you know, by the end of the month but the sooner you get it to us the sooner we can work towards finalizing the next draft. Yeah, I mean I'd like to propose the next meeting be the, you know, around the 16th, the Housing Trust typically meets the second Thursday of the month. I also work with them, but I missed their meetings the last few months. So if we could have it, you know, that week even the week of November 13 so it could be Monday Monday's a 13 so anytime that week. And that's, you know, I do that for two reasons one, it could give us time for this for the draft and you know for commission to make that commission members make comments and then for pbpc to incorporate them. And also if there's a demolition hearing, there may be an application would give us enough time to then also have a hearing and try to combine it with meetings and not have two meetings, you know, within the same week or something. That sounds good with the caveat that if my daughter is in a state divisional soccer game I will not be here. You will have the draft one way or another, but I think that that's going to be soccer playoffs and her teams currently ranked first. So, do you have any questions for Ken or any comments related to the municipal section. That was a new kind of a more recent addition to this draft. Yeah, I think just to add to Shannon's comments and Nate, you know, kind of summarize the conversations that we had with the planning board, a lot of my work at pbpc is regulatory looking at zoning and mostly land use type things and you know, having worked in many communities and how to address historical resources has been something that communities are all in different pages. And so it was fascinating getting to read and do some additional research on this knowing that I think for the most part of the communities that I've ever worked in, Amherst is probably the most robust of trying to figuring out, you know, what types of protections there can be under land use regulations but also ensuring that your municipal processes are doing the best, you know, it has the best impact. So, you know, I look forward to the comments from the commission as to, you know, if those things are helpful, I think also comments from the from Nate, you know, if there may be things to look at more closely for the for that particular section. You know, something that we can make a little. That's more to. Yeah, I was going to say that, you know, the planning board is looking at rezoning different areas. Village centers for density, maybe overlay and university drive to offer denser housing. And I think, you know, what what it looks like is really important. So we're also have a request for proposals out to have a consultant come up with design standards for the downtown and those centers folks in the downtown. The commission can be a part of that. So, you know, what Ken said is, is interesting to me is that, you know, we could try to have the commission, you know, think about what could zoning help with preservation and so, you know, it's not just the, you know, you know, a delay or preferably preserved it could be, you know, are there setbacks or other pieces that, you know, whether or not the commission researchers that maybe it's something that we recommend to the planning board that, you know, there's certain aspects of control with zoning that could be important for preservation. And oftentimes I feel like those pieces aren't really connected very well. And so it's nice to see that. You know, I don't have anything specific, but, you know, we have design guidelines downtown now that are advisory and that we're trying to make those a little bit more have a little more teeth. And so I think it can go along with this plan in terms of what, you know, what's important is it. Yeah. A lot of the comments were about scale and, you know, that feeling of, and I think that design community wide design guidelines would be helpful for anyone. I also was curious if you noticed our, we threw in a minimum building. It's known as demolition by neglect, but minimum building exterior standards. And we were looking at your bylaws and there's the nuisance bylaw, which has been getting stronger, which even relates to stuff on the sidewalk and we were like, huh, so that's, that's something that we'd like you to take a look at. Because it was coming up in conversations with your commission about absentee landlords and letting buildings, that's a kind of a different way to approach, not creating a local historic district, but just saying, okay, we have, we expect you to keep up your building and, you know, design guidelines, there's different tools and things, but we linked some case studies that we thought were interesting examples and also the certified local government is something else we'd like you to take a look at because Amherst would be a good candidate for that and also could open the way to more funding and support from the National Park Service and Mass Historical Commission. And then that's on page 55 right. Yes, yep, 50. 56, I believe, in that. Yeah, and there's a narrative within the body but yep the action plan. Community design guidelines certified local government status. Community minimum building exterior standards. We're some of the things we, we thought might be interesting to talk about. And like you said, different approach. Wow. I think I'm going to run, I'm sorry, but I'm going to run, you know, I'll just you myself and turn my screen off in case I come back, but Robin I've made you the host. Okay. I don't really know what I'm doing, but we'll give it a go. Thank you, Nate. So I will link up with Nate and get a, what did he say, one, I forget what the, I know that some organizations aren't using Dropbox anymore but we will figure out how to share the word version. Yeah. Yeah. One drive. One drive. One drive. We'll link up so that you can get the word version and then track changes. Okay, that'll be really helpful. And then the goal will be towards the end of the month to get your comments and then we'll incorporate that along with what we're adding to it. And Shannon a question. We've been working on these plans kind for other communities. So I know that we've had a really long delay between when our last preservation plan was put together in this one. This update. What are communities, it makes you recommend what like every five years, like what's your. Yes, but you're good. Most communities don't have a preservation plan at all. Like Amherst just is just doing theirs right now right Ken. Not Amherst North Hampton. I'm sorry. See this. I'm normally asleep at this time. So I apologize. North Hampton is doing their first, I mean they have design guidelines for the district, but they are doing their first community wide historic preservation plan. So Amherst is like, like as Ken said, you're, it's a pleasure to do this because you've already done so many steps continuously over decades of, you know, understanding what is important to the community and and then working towards those goals. So I think it's 10 years. I'm not sure. What's the state preservation plan. They just updated it. Maybe that was five years. But yeah, you're, you're good. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's good to, I was just thinking in terms of, you know, as we get this one under belts to keep to not lose track of when it actually starts. And I think that the 2005 plan, did it say 10 years, I believe was the recommendation. So that would have been 2015. So it could be 10 years. Okay, I think would be safe, but great. Great. That's, I'm going to put that in there that that should be an action step. Any other comments, anybody. Right. Anything else from you Shannon or Ken. Thank you for inviting us to your meeting. Appreciate you reading through this giant document. So much. Have a good night. Good night. Okay. So the remainder of our public meeting items, other than public comment, are all old business, which, from my perspective, I don't think anyone, I certainly haven't made any progress on. And I'm not sure if anybody else has, I was just going to suggest that we table them to the next meeting when we can hopefully get some movement there. If anybody has any questions on them they were, we've been trying to develop commission one and five year commission goals. So that's the historic barns and outbuilding assessment pilot program that's got funding now from the CPA. And we need to get word out to our property owners about that. The policy for preservation restrictions really requires Nate to be in on that discussion. Same for national register nominations, documentation of 140 southeast street. So we're all items that I think we're just going to move to the next meeting unless there's any objection. Okay, I don't know the exact technical language I'm supposed to use but. And at this point, we, the next agenda item would be public comment. I see that Hilda green bomb is in the attendees. If Hilda wanted to make public comment at this point she could raise her hand and I can see if I could figure out how to let her into the meeting. Oh, look, there's a very handy button that says allowed to talk. Okay, hello Hilda you're currently trying to write this up for the end. Oh, you have nothing to say okay. That's a very rare occasion so. All right, well thank you Hilda. So, since there's no further public comment. Let's see. An anticipated items anyone have any unanticipated items. Can you just confirm the next meeting on next meeting. Yeah, we have a meeting next week, the 19th, and that's to deal with the Jones library that specifically for the Jones library preservation restriction issue and Nate will be getting us more information for that. And then in terms of our November meeting and the week of November 13, I will, when we get off here I will send out a doodle poll or a doodle like all for those evenings to see which, which day works best for everybody including me. And then we'll forward that to you guys by email to let you know the next, the following meeting the November meeting. I think I don't need to have a vote to adjourn unless anybody has another comment. Okay. Thanks everybody. Being here. Everybody. Thank you. 817. Bye guys.