 So welcome everybody. Thanks for joining our talk here today. I hope you're having a good time at Drupal Con up till now My name is Mieshko I'm co-owner of Golgorilla and I've been in the Drupal community for about eight years I'm a Drupal Con speaker virgin. So please be nice to me and and My love for Drupal started slow. So like like I said, I've been running Golgorilla for about eight nine years now But my background is more in industrial engineering and it's in analytics Google AdWords advertising. So it's not so much about code Like Dries said today in his keynote so the so the love of code changes into the love of Community and that's what's happened to me, but it took a while so From my background I'm more into advertising and the business side of things That's also why I today I represent the business side of things when talking about fixed teams so I'll be talking from a business owner perspective And Avelina here, which you will introduce herself will be talking from Scrum master perspective So I'll give the floor to you. Yeah, all right. So hi everybody I'm Avelina and Golgorilla or Mieshko was kind to hire me about three years ago and ever since then I'm also part of this had his big Drupal community and For most of our clients we work in an agile way in scrum method and then I act as a scrum master But we also do some waterfall projects so I'm also some kind of some how the more traditional project manager for smaller projects and Today we're gonna talk about Multidisciplinary teams how we implemented them And we're still actually implementing them and also what well especially with challenges We came across and we hope to give you some some solutions to the problems we came across But first let me take you Back a year later. Yeah, I have to click her please So first let me take you back a year ago because in 2015 I think Golgorilla exceeded about 20 employees and Along with his growth a lot of other problems slowly arising and became bigger and these problems Mainly about planning so we have a lot of we had a lot of resources who are planned along among a lot of projects and Which also led to scattered knowledge among all these people of these projects But also customers had a lot of different contact persons to talk to so there was also also not very entirely clear for our customers And also if you look at the scrum way of of managing a Big part of scrum is to keep a dedicated team for a longer period of time And also this is something that we were not always following Also, we were still working in a more traditional way of having departments like a design department and development department and these department didn't really Yeah, cooperate and Also, they were like these single islands in our in our company in our company basically So well at the end of 2015 we were like, okay, we have to solve these problems And how can we do that? We had didn't have these problems when we were smaller. So maybe we should try to become a little bit more smaller again and create sub teams where we have these small gorillas And this this is where the multi-disciplinary teams came in. This is not a new concept I think over the last years. We also visited a lot of presentations and conferences About this topic and I think well and the end of last year. This was the time for us to take the step and Well, we're currently not not there yet We're still I think we believe in two-third of our implementation and we're heading towards having more than two multi-disciplinary teams and also Yeah, I'm making the teams actual responsible for the revenue and their their sales basically so Just to give a bit more context because that's what I should have said on the first slide So so go girl has been growing like 30 40 percent a year for last Three four years. So at first that this is rather easily. Oh, if you start with zero, it's easy to get to one and etc But at a certain moment, especially around this 20 20 people Barrier it really started to hurt. So We had like pretty heavy business reasons for doing this as well. So it's not only about, you know Implementing a methodology. That's that's rather hip like agile but we had a hard time staying profitable especially in 2014 it was a rough year and I Think in the end. It's difficult to like grow quickly and also keep revenue up and and keep some money at the end And this was was really starting to worry us And as a side note, I always had an ambition to build something that's a bit bigger than myself as well So so when we had this company would was like more traditionally structured in departments We had like a marketing department design department development support It always felt like, you know, you were at the top like the puppet master You had to manage all the strings at once and once you removed yourself You know, it would stop moving and this didn't seem healthy to me doesn't feel right and also I think it Neglects some of the talent in the company because people don't have the room to grow into their full potential So so there were like both emotional reasons and also like long-term business reasons for trying this and doing this So, you know, this talk is a bit of a beginner level talk, I think at least that's what we promised But just to get a feel of the room Let's do a show of hands. So who is in there like a project manager role or a scrum master role Okay, so that's like one third of the room. That's nice Who's the business owner? Okay, wow, so that's another one third What what represents the others coders any coders even coders came nice job guys and Just just to give an indication because I think Like company size is also a factor in this So so how many people are you like one to ten was a one to ten Business, okay a bit less than like one fourth and then ten to 15 Yeah, and 15 till 20 or more Wow, it's quite a lot of you guys So you basically solved all our problems or maybe you experienced and did later on we can talk about this later you know so so as a as a structure of our talk we have 20 or 50 minutes left at the end to get into more details depending on on how Technical you guys want to get and if you want to talk about tools and stuff like this Back back to this slide, so why should this be interesting to you In my opinion, I think we should have done this earlier It's always a very bad idea to reinvent the wheel again. So if you do this In our experience you end up with a wheel that looks something like like this So it's not the most modern wheels will be crappy It will break So preferably if you can you would like to have something like this, you know much better wheel But believe me they didn't do this by starting at zero. No, they iterated on the existing design and made it better So it's think I think especially for the like smaller companies It's good to start thinking about these issues as early as possible So To sum up for scrum masters, we'll be giving some suggestion how we do can you can do planning and accountability That's something we found is important And for business owners, I'll talk a bit about KPI select key performance indicators how you measure your success very important And how you can use those tools to be to build a sustainable Drupal agency business in the longer term, okay, so So we're gonna touch on four challenges which we thought would be interesting We guys in the first one is the roles of team members how to organize them because it's not simply like Like adding all these people in a team and that's it. You also have to literally become multi-disciplinary It's not just adding these disciplines in a team So what we did is Approach it agile as we always do so we started to Implementing it step by step so we could also learn of each step and adapt if needed to the next step So this is a go gorilla and what we first did our first step was basically create two teams and Each team consists of our developers or front-enders and our project managers So we split them up as as first step And what we tried for a couple of months is how to how the developers in front-enders would collaborate in a smaller team exchanging their knowledge and also learn how to benefit from each other and The project manager starts to experiment a little bit on the reporting How do we show how billable we are and how do we show? How much capacity we still have available? So Next step for us was to add the designers. So we have interaction designers and graphical designers We also split them and added them each to a team and And Yeah, again, we started to to learn how to collaborate with even a discipline who is even farther from your normal daily job So that was as a code and also. Yeah as a project manager So there was already something we had to learn and we started doing this for two months and also Started to learn how to collaborate Between the teams because it's not that we don't want to have any collaboration anymore whatsoever We still have to spread knowledge between these two teams So we have set up some several events where these teams cooperate with each other exchange knowledge and all kinds of things Well next step would be to add marketing to the teams and we're actually right in Front of this are you calling it at the beginning of this step? So we're not there yet and marketing can already has a use part in our customer projects But we also expect that the marketing can help the team to promote themselves Which can also be a very beneficial if if co-griller wants to hire new Developers new designers so that we're actually out there and and telling how cool we are what we do and what kind of team We are and I think that would also Be a very beneficial Well next and maybe the last step step Is to add sales or sales activities to the team. So we're not quite sure what this should be But in the end we're hoping to yeah to go towards this figure and to see Or actually to give the responsibility to the team in terms of revenue sales and all these things So but we're not there yet I think we hope to take a step in this in the beginning of 2017 So for us it was really helpful to take it step-by-step up till now and I think the biggest The biggest thing for us was learning that the collaboration between these team members It is not happening Just from a split second you have to really invest in it. You have to learn what can benefit Another team member. So this is really where we paid the most attention to in the past month. So And I've been looking at it like a more company-wide situation. So if you take like 2014 and 2015 I already told you we had this department. So we are like pretty traditionally structured With the end result being that almost all accountability Was right at the top if you really looked at it. There were like no Reporting mechanisms for for people working in the departments or at least maybe there were some reporting mechanism But there were no no no real consequences when when things go Not how we plant them. So This had a yeah, this this effected Basically all the responsibility was that was at the management level and and we everybody behaved accordingly Because you know that that's what what what you destruct your supports So we had like quarterly reviews with the company, but we didn't really share financial information as management So we were not really keep you I focused in that in that way So it was really easy for people to and I understand that you know, I'm not blaming people It's like the logical consequence that that there were the beginnings of not my problem culture like I would like We could say so so people were just thinking well somebody else will solve this issue and in the end The bill somewhere ends up at those guys at the top and we'll see what happens And basically that's that's my fault, you know for structuring it this way So I don't blame people again I don't think it was a terrible company to to work at or that we are disastrous bosses But you just end up in a situation that works like this And I think it's important to to if you can't prevent this and be ahead of this by by doing it differently That's that's basically the The story here So now when you have these two we have two teams furthest in forming There's much more responsibility within the team and We have a few key Ways in doing this and I think this is something I would if you if you take away anything today That would be nice to think about this. So so We use I think you can call it the all hands meeting is which is every six weeks And every team is now responsible for presenting its key PI's and our basic key PI is Billable rates So so we the teams report on their efficiencies instead We used to be born like a revenue focused company, but that doesn't really tell you much about profitability at the end In our in my vision. It's more important to focus on billable rates If we will go in more into detail about how high these rates should be or what what is the consequence of this? So let me see and So, yeah, so these this all hands meeting it's getting more popular that you hear about this Many companies, but I really feel the key difference is that not the management is reporting like afterwards about those Key performance indicators, but the teams do it themselves, you know And when you end up with a much more transparent business as a whole because now nobody can say well I did not my problem. I didn't know and you have like once a year a discussion about the financials No, you'll see potential pitfalls or any issues much much earlier Yeah Yeah challenge to is about managing several agile projects within a smaller team Because Well, when you have a smaller team, it's you also a bit less flexible than we were before like a project was there And we said, okay, this guy has some time this guy has some time We'll yeah squeeze them together and here is the project team But now we have to fit it in these smaller teams So that is also a challenge and what you try to do is sell springs to customer Customers and try just to schedule them One at a time. Oh, yeah, keep forgetting this story So and schedule them one at a time and what we do is we communicate to to sales Basically, what is our available capacity and what kind of project would fit in there? And of course, you cannot steer this but this is something we try to to to inform sales about the wood it Doesn't need to be a more development Focused assignment or should it be more design a focus So this is also something we try to communicate to sales so that they can actually find the correct Or actually the right project which will fit in the team and Sometimes we also have to do smaller waterfall projects and what we try to do is well schedule an extra iteration in between sprints and just squeeze as much as fits in there so we can have this a bit more structured instead of That it flows through our springs and that is more parallel. So we try to avoid Working parallel because we're still one team. So we have to Yeah, also work as a team and focus on the same goals as a team Yeah, then the fun starts because when I see this And I think well we have these empty spaces. It's like two teams and I have this very nice Three week project which I could potentially do in one sprint Then I'll just squeeze it in there like over team one and team two. I'll just Push it in there and like make money. That's nice, right? And we used to do this a lot, you know, even at the at the beginning of the of the of the teams as well but even more before When we just had individual members everywhere and this almost always ended Not well, not maybe not a disaster, but it was it was not pretty The results were like project overrun lower quality deliveries than you actually would like But maybe most important when you'd like deliver this This project there's again you're back at this situation that there is no real responsibilities So because a few individual made it nobody was really hands-on for for the end result And then it's really hard to follow up with the customer with something is wrong Or we want to make iteration or next version So my biggest tip is how big the temptation gets just don't do it You know, just don't start squeezing in stuff across teams Projects across teams because there are better ways of doing this So so if you come up with this type of situation consider like Either extending the team and by this we mean like hiring new people But this might be dangerous if you don't want to commit for long long long term I would actually recommend looking into Acquiring like a partner Drupal agency that works for us. It works really well You could look into nearsharing it for example and the reason why I prefer working with agencies instead of freelancers It's even a bit more stable, you know, if the agency has a few bit more resources available And you will not end up with a freelancer which disappears or it's busy on a different project when you need them the next time So instead of like trying to squeeze stuff in Horizontally or vertically in this this case Try try thinking about expanding or maybe do some like flexible expansion of your teams It tends to to work much better and the team just absorbs a new team member if it's a few people Without much pain in our experience. Third challenge is about reporting as At Mieske kind of already introduced We are at the moment really focusing on our billable rate And we also set a target for this per team one X X every team has the same target so what we do is we say 75 percent of our time we should be billable and 25 percent we can spend on Yeah Spend on personal growth and we can either do this in on in a personal lever But you can also look at us as a team if you want to visit a conference or if you want to learn some Specific thing in in the course or those kind of things. So we call that of course R&D but The 75 percent since we also told that the teams are not responsible yet for their revenue and their sales We like to keep this figure because it really focused the team and to get used to these targets but also is the most important thing is that we that we learn to be more efficient and especially in in go girl Our projects are I think the majority of our projects are heavily development based so once in a while our designers have less tasks to do and By adding them in these teams as well We are now making sure that the entire team is responsible also for this designer that he has work to do So they are looking for new things and they are being creative in a different way What work and I help with what will benefit? What will benefit if if I help around in this team and explore tasks beyond the yeah the border of your of your normal daily jobs, so think of Helping testing or create some documentation or help out with a customer because they had a lot of questions those kind of things So it's really paying off to see that people are Yeah, helping each other and making sure everybody has enough work to do so Told you about our like six weekly company meetings. So so I told you it was really important to do take this take this home So emphasize again, and we do really do strict reporting on billable rates in those weeks And actually sometimes we are a lot above those billable rates, but we know what is a healthy like Down down level which is at 75 Maybe you can explain everything why we're above a hundred, but That's maybe discussion for a different time But you know there's a few things we still need to learn and I think if you start looking into this type of structure You should look into them as quickly as possible And that's also looking ahead because we're approaching this a bit like a accountancy Based system, you know, so you look only in the past which is all nice It's better than doing nothing certainly But it gets interesting when you can predict this to a certain point and look ahead So if you see problems when you bill ability will drop to unhealthy levels or if you're just too busy So you just cannot do any more projects And this this still has proven a bit hard for us to Look ahead and this is the next step. We are working on so not only reporting back But having some kind of way of predicting this like two or three months ahead And then, you know, what's important to tell in terms of results because I was telling that this is about building a sustainable business in the end At least it's for me So so in 2015 we we did about 85,000 euros of revenue on Per full-time employee and we were like with 18 people So that's close to $100,000 That that's okay, I think it could be higher, you know if we are pretty young team if you if you If you have wanted a room for growth, it should be a bit higher even still And now when we look after we implemented this Our situation is a bit different this year because we are investing heavily in a distribution as well But if you count those hours as billable, I think we see about that we are about five more percent more efficient And grown like 20% in our team size So so that's like pretty in my opinion is pretty good results because we had always trouble keeping up growth and sustaining profitability now we actually increased both so so it From what we can account for now. It does work. So I really recommend it and Just like as a final remark, you know, it don't it seems like I'm only in it for the money But in my belief Those billable rates are also important because it says something about those 20% or 25% in which you don't need to be billable So it in the end it drives innovation as well You know just working for clients 2047 will will not always yield the best results in the long long run so Yeah, I think it's important to think about how much time you want to spend on Innovating your company and for us this seems to be healthy levels I know about levels which are a bit different. So I know agencies that press up up to 85 or Or even higher when they work on like full-time agile projects, but this seems to work for us for now And seems sustainable. Oh, I didn't mention that we are actually achieved 12% profitability in 2015 on on this That's an important thing on this 85,000 euro revenue So it is a healthy business But I think as the owner you should keep those metrics in mind and see if you can Come up with something that works long-term. Yes Yes, so look into the yeah, okay Back to Aveline Yeah, so the fourth and and last challenge is is growth. I think we have mentioned this a couple of times Because when at the beginning of the year we said hey, you have you all have 25% of your time Which you can dedicate on personal growth or team growth Well people were like, okay, what should I do and there were not many Ways or they were not very creative in in these things So one thing we came up with and is how we call it our developer journey and can also call it designer journey, of course But twice a year Developer in this case sits down with a few of his team members and and just discuss a lot of Technical skills, but also soft skills and and and they discuss whether this skills already performed at a more junior level or a more senior level and level and yeah, we have some terms for that on the right You see infant and Silverback and growing, but it's just a major thing and Based on these on these on this feedback from his team members This person can set like a plan in which he wants to focus on the coming six to twelve months in this 20% 25% of his time Well, and as I said He can do it on a on a personal level so he can just follow his own path and and and make sure that he Learns a lot and if he wants he can share it with his team But what we're actually seeing now is that people are trying to To Cooperate with other colleagues who have the same interests and are interested in the same focus areas So we have some small groups of people who are very interested in security or performance and they just Schedule their own time and make sure that they set some goals or learn new things all kinds of things in these focus areas and The nicest thing is of course also that they can even spread this new knowledge in their teams Yeah, this this last one is I think also interesting because this really touches upon like a long-term Vision because I think what is important to align personal growth with like Collective success of the company if you somehow manage to do this You will be doing well in a long time a long term and but this this might be harder than than it looks because Yeah, so we have two things, you know, so we have like salary salary So most people like to earn more when they look are more experienced And they're right right for it But this doesn't always Align with making more revenue, especially what we have seen and this is something we could talk about once we're At the end of the session is for instance, we used to charge like junior media and senior rates for people To our clients and and then if you do that, it's possible to align more experienced people with with actually making more money So then they can get more experience that you can charge more Etc. But in our experience the market is changing a bit and people Tend to like flat rates at least in our business in the Netherlands and some of our international clients So what happens then that this no longer aligns So if you charge like flat rates and everybody is moving in those journeys to like higher senior level salaries, then you in the end it will not compute, you know, so so you will start the better you're at your work the Relatively less profitability you will achieve. So so this is something We really need to think about and our answer is actually we decided to Implement one flat rate. So there are like no differences because nobody wants to hire like a junior person But we do have a like a pretty aggressive growth strategy So so our answer for aligning those two is to keep on expanding those teams, you know So so the more experienced people break off. They potentially can form new teams and you feed The teams with with new people And this is interesting because in my way did in my vision. This is the only way to actually do this But you do have a you cannot implement this system and just say well, we'll just stay at 10 or 15 people I think it will it will not work in the end. So if you move to this Team structure be prepared to to look for growth, you know and our pace was about 20 to 35 percent a year I guess it's it's interesting if this is a sustainable rate. It seems so but But keep this in mind So we're at the end of our talk let me summarize you the key takeaways We have for you. So if you're interested in this type of Structure for your company think think in teams not layers of management and and departments like we used to have in 2014 So if you have capacity issues like like I showed you like trying to squeeze in projects across teams Which is really unhealthy. Don't don't do it Consider expanding your teams either temporarily by hiring Freelancers or maybe setting up some more sustainable agency Corporations with other Drupal agencies I Think it's really critical to our success in a way those six If it doesn't matter if it's six weeks or eight or whatever But these all all hand hands-on meetings in which you discuss Important performance indicators for us its billable rates make sense a lot. I think And last but not least think about how we will align personal growth and like professional growth of people With growth of your company and revenue because those not always align and then you will run into problems in the longer term So I think we're good on time so we have quite a lot of time for discussion I I Have like one first question prepared for you guys if you're a bit shy and then We can maybe expand and just talk about all kinds of things you you think is interesting so Just to just to start One of our things we haven't solved yet is about a question about sales so Maybe somebody wants to tell about how how he or she integrated sales into their Organization in a team like structure Because we don't really sure how to do this yet So anyone I see a bunch of people shaking their heads like no Sorry, maybe you could Yeah, thank you so much. I'm sorry. I'm Eric Hi, I might have a clue on how to address these kinds of topics because many of them are related to Not the functional role of team members. I'm a designer or I'm a developer or whatever but more in in terms of People roles their theory for example theme role models from from her team blanchard that discusses on what kind of people are in a team or should be in a team to have a Successful theme for example, you need plans that people that come up with ideas all the time and you know But you also need bureaucrats that write them down or raise objectives or things like that So maybe if you look at more People skills within your team That might be helpful to address sales as well because maybe Your developer might be a good salesperson at least for some clients or some projects Doesn't need to be a different person Yeah, so that's an interesting point. So if I understand correctly you say it's also about the soft skills and maybe somebody could develop these roles within their main Role as a developer or a designer or whatever But still then then, you know, you have to have revenue and sales because in the end if you don't the team will fall apart So so I think the key is where the responsibility lies, you know So I have somebody at the front. I think that it's It's very hard and it's all on the management in the beginning To to make sure that if you put the salespersons into the teams, that's a very good idea But not to give them too many hats Because it becomes a problem when you have a salesperson who's also involved in the process of producing And and he won't be able to focus on selling the next project Which is why I don't actually agree that that to Develop the team members into salespersons would be a very good idea. But on the other hand by placing the salesperson into the team he can take on some what of a product owner role and become more technical and and as technical product manager, which I am now and previously I was sales an account manager and and my problem when I was a salesman and not integrated in the team was that I didn't have the technical Understanding that I really needed to understand what had to be done when I sold stuff and and now that I'm more Involved in the process. It's easier for me But then I lose track of the sales stuff because I have to make sprint reports and Manage the next week sprint because I keep getting more hats. So it's It's kind of like okay. Now you can do more stuff. You don't have to do more stuff But it's nice that you know that stuff exists That's It wasn't really solution-oriented what I had to see I was more problem-oriented No, but I think it's a really good idea to integrate sales into the teams because We all it's often it becomes us versus them when it's the developers versus the sales teams because sales teams Don't have the understanding of what it's like to be the developer. Yeah, and they think well, this sounds easy It's only a bit of code. We can do that Tomorrow, no problem Yeah, so that's interesting point. So but your point is basically opposite to what we heard that First there are like lots of fingers at the end of the Room. Yes. Yes So I'm here. I'm responsible for sales and marketing and partnerships at an agency called manifesto I completely agree with your point. So I joined the agency when there was 18 of us about a year and a half ago There's now 40. So we've grown pretty rapidly and I Initially started the company having come from a background in recruitment and please no one throw anything at me So I had absolutely zero technical knowledge and my natural transition into that sales position was To work in kind of an account management account direction semi project management Basis get to know a little bit more about it and I've gradually moved out of that now and I run basically sales Alongside our CEO for manifesto and you're totally right having too much to do leaves you with too many things to do We found that something that's been really really important to us in our new business is to have a decent marketing strategy So a lot of the way that we do sales isn't so much cold-cooling. In fact, I do very little cold-cooling There's no active attack towards a product. It's more Education every base. So we host a lot of events and we put a lot of content up on our website We do lots of blogging and we do lots of thought leadership and it's mostly network based So we keep our relationships close to our heart and that's why having come from that background in account management I think definitely helped in terms of bringing new business in for manifesto Yeah, interesting. Thank you To more people at the back. Well, we have the time no problem. Oh, yes, sure. I'm Woody. Thanks a lot for the talk It's really interesting. I Have many questions, but the two of them that are more important Is there any magic number for the team size that's one of them the other one Is there any bonus system for the team for the team lead? Well, I'm not sure if there's a magic number, but we like to keep it around nine people max Also kind of depending what kind of disciplines you have in your team But I think if it exceeds beyond that and then you have to see if you can split it. Otherwise Yeah, the other Problems which I talked about will yeah Come up again and where's the responsibility and too many people to spread knowledge and to collaborate will also lead to these problems again Do we have a bonus? Well, I think we should That's a really good question we talk about this a lot, so yeah, what can I say about this? Well, I think it's it's a good idea I would really love moving there I think we are not up to the level of accountability to make this actually happen because Like you saw we have like targets for efficiency like billable rates And we look mostly behind us how it went if if we like more depth at actually planning for this in the teams itself You know now Mostly the planning is done by me and the co-co-co owner if any planning Once we get there when you when teams are actually responsible for the future I think it would be a good idea to look at some kind of bonus system But but now I don't actually as a business owner I don't think they actually have enough as a responsibility yet to to to be like Entrepreneurs like mini entrepreneurs inside of a company, so but I think you're back to different But in any case I think the bonus should be to the team in my opinion and instead of a single person Because that was what we want to achieve you all have the same goal So in my opinion would be a bonus for it for entire team Thank you. Hey, my name is Shailesh. Yeah, it's a similar problem. We have now about hundred people company The way we try to address this issue is verticalize them So we had healthcare media publishing as verticals and the entire team is responsible for a particular target So they're responsible for a target and the team co-owns the target and then right behind it So there is a mix of subject matter expert also within that team and that's how they've been growing from about 50 people Okay, that's an amazing achievement. Well, we actually are doing something a bit similar So I didn't want to like throw it into the room already beginning but We're trying to do like sales meeting next to next to our all hands-on meeting and at the moment. It's meant by the scrum masters and what we call consulting project managers and We identify like opportunities for upselling with Existing customers which just tends to be a bit easier and they're really hands-on, you know Because they know the project the client in detail and it's easy to identify like opportunities to grow but also we Share the like the sales targets and try to build areas of expertise And so also to get management involved and say well, we have these opportunities guys What do you think should we proceed on them? We have a few criteria on which we judge business opportunities and if we should move forward some them or not But that's the beginning of a structure, but it's still like emerging. I think in our case We still have like the maximum of 10 minutes left And if you've got more than enough staff for a number of teams, how do you select those teams and Do you rotate them so that these guys aren't always working in the same teams? well We actually let the guys decide on a teams themselves. We had like an Yeah, we had like a setup, but we discussed it with every team member and see and in the end Also, some team members switch because they rather want to be in team 8 and b because they're already worse on customers and projects already divided among these teams and Do we rotate them? Yeah in the beginning. We said let's look into After six months see if we need to rotate them. Well, that was too quick But we are going to have these discussions in in a month actually to see if we want to rotate them and I think it would For the teams it will be very beneficial But we also have to look into what does this mean for our customers and our projects and the end on knowledge Yeah, you mentioned that you have different teams, but basically working on the same kind of matters for example two project teams that have a billable rate as KPI have you noticed any kind of Competition the motivation effect and if so, how do you battle it? Yeah, I think we noticed it especially because one of the teams so that the figures of being 105 percent billable We're actually true because one of the teams is pretty stuffed at some months And the other team is working on our on our distribution. So we're actually not really billable So yeah at the beginning these figures also could raise some Yeah, I'm not sure how to call it But in the end it was just about being transparent and at the other team Okay, even though they're not that billable and this moment while the company has chose to build this distribution So we know that we wouldn't be billable But by explaining what kind of work we do and and that we're basically doing the same except It's not billable and that we're just as busy and that made sure that the teams were on the same page again So yeah, there was some friction. I think yeah Do you evade the trap of not my business when you have a different teams basically competing each other And then having to do the knowledge sharing a k.a. Well, this is not my stuff I don't need to care about it, but instead working with the team spirit keeping those So-called mini teams as a one big team and having the common goal Well, that's one of the biggest challenges in the data to Had to make sure that the team is all Fighting for the same goal and that's very new to us, especially well across these disciplines We used to start with the design and then the development and when we are at the part of the development the designer wouldn't basically care anymore and and Yeah, I think we we also have these these meetings within the team to talk about it to say hey We've noticed that the designer has less to do what can we do about it? We noticed this that this goal is not achieved by everybody So it's just a matter of discussing it on a monthly basis and being transparent and try to be honest to each other Yeah, and yeah, I tend to I tend to agree that transparency is a very big part of this So like I mentioned, we used to do this quarterly reviews or maybe even yearly reviews that really doesn't work So then people get like surprised at the end of the year. So what have you been doing? You know, you were like not billable or whatever So but if you somehow make this like an easy subject to discuss regularly It doesn't emerge as an issue that much and a different thing is that we started to count our We somehow we always have the ambition to do our own projects You know like modules or whatever and we separate those but do count them as Um On top of the billable rate because obviously that's time spent Being productive very productive even giving back to the community one could say So so that Especially when you're working on a distribution or example that aligns those billable rates more to like a realistic expectations Instead of just saying well, you're at 20 because you spent your time at modules That's strange So Yes, please the war like questions at the back Would you be so nice to come forward? Yeah Dear question that you have before I think you should ask the teams If you empower your teams to decide themselves You should ask the question that you just ask us from the teams Because if they're not for it, then I think it's a bad idea If they don't want to wear many hats like you said, they won't take it It's it's bad idea to just push the idea But if they're open to it, maybe it can even vary from team to team It doesn't matter if one team wants it and the other one doesn't why not Why can't being just some teams and not in others? So that's my opinion on that. Um, I also have a question for you use showed a lot of numbers and talked about the teams, but Did you measure how the changes that you made, how the people felt about the changes? Did you measure happiness or? Spirit or did you get any numbers on those? Short answer is yes, I think I'll get Evelyn to answer this one, but first to get to your first one first Yes, you could Try to place this responsibility into the teams to make their own decisions But in our experience This maybe goes a bit too far at the beginning because you know Like I said, people are not Entrepreneurs some of those people choose not to be entrepreneurs like like a conscious decision And we shouldn't pretend they are And if you try to ask to make them those decisions They basically force them to to take on a much bigger role than they Used to have like like only six months ago So maybe I maybe I think we might get there, but it will certainly be slow So that's that's my opinion on on it And I think there is like a responsibility for management that certainly as well to make some Some good effort to solve this I'll get about the happiness question to you Yeah, we don't have very strict metrics, but we do do it in Different ways the the one team is is more evaluating it and talking about in the meetings that we have as a team And just evaluating Yeah, not on specific metrics actually and the other team is actually like I think it's actually on a weekly base They they vote the happiness they had in that week So they are doing some more metrics like but that's within the teams. It's a different how they solve it So I think we answered all of your questions Excellent. Well, that's about right. We have like two two minutes left So just as a reminder, there are like sprints on Friday if you're the few coders that are in the room be sure to join them And be sure to give feedback on our talk So you can go to the page on Drupal.org and there is the possibility To give feedback and we'll post our slides over there And so you can look back if you find anything interesting I haven't talked about Gogarilla much I skipped some of my lines at the beginning I saw But um, yeah, maybe interesting to know we have like a big project that's open social If Alina is wearing it, it's a distribution for building online communities You might want to check that out and you can you can reach us at Twitter, so that's our Twitter addresses or you can also email us at our general address And we have a booth downstairs Oh, yes There are almost 10 of us here at DrupalCon And we man the booth at 906. So if you want to follow up or just have a chat or whatever You can walk by Yeah All right. Thank you for your attention and have a good week