 All right, welcome back. It's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa away from all the press that we have mercy joining us Why do I feel like a special guest on the show special guest? Well, it's good to be it's good to see you first of all And it's good to you know, thank you so much. It's actually not black. It's navy blue And it feels great to be back in this beautiful Tuesday morning Morning, I mean if you if you know what's going on in the city of Lagos then you would understand that you know It's so difficult. What a time to be a Nigerian But however, we're hoping that you know, all of this would be resolved and then of course so would actually you know Move on and move forward. Yes Nigerians are actually biting, you know and feeling the biting effect of you know the fuse Cassidy and I got mercy And the fact that it causes the traffic that's the annoying thing in Lagos. It's just Horrendous, it's just terrible. So it's a combination of the fact that you have fuel scarcity That's on the one hand coupled with the fact that there's a lot of rehabilitation work going on in different parts of Lagos I mean majorly you have the VGC at your axis. I mean being that that work I really don't know what's going to happen that rehabilitation work is also constituting Naturally, you would say that Lagos would always experience, you know the traffic But with all of these activities the fact that people would have to queue up Feeling stations you have them on the road by the roadside and so longer time So all of the queues making the roads very narrow, but we need to move away this morning looking at the first major conversation as the issue of the constitutional amendment and the Proposed items or the items that has been considered now in Continuance of its constitution amendment process Niger's houses of parliament and the National Assembly comprising the House of Representatives and the Senate voted on 68 proposed amendment to the country's constitution a move on President since he was drafted on the the military rule in 1999 and these proposed amendments were the result of zonal hearings held across the country in 2021 the voting saw the National Assembly grant financial and administrative autonomy to all local governments in the country They voted for independent candidacy in elections and separated the office of the attorney general of the Federation From that of the minister of justice however lawmakers voted against the pension for presiding officers of the National Assembly and rejected Veterally all provision designed to improve women inclusion in Nigerian politics and society now some of the bills passed on Tuesday There was yesterday include financial independence of the state houses of assembly and the state judiciary moving of airports from exclusive lists to the concurrent legislative lists and Allowing states to generate to transmit and distribute electricity in areas not covered by the national grid Others also include a bill that sets a time frame for submission of names of ministerial and commission on nominees and others And also a time frame for the conduct of census one that enshrines free and compulsory basic education as fundamental human right Now it's actually a very lengthy one But some of the bills which were thrown out by the lawmakers bordered on the termination of tenure on Account of political party defection That's diaspora voting and procedure for overriding president's veto for Constitution alteration and the virtual court hearing also immunity for presiding officers of the National Assembly Heads of judiciary was also rejected at this point in time We will be being we're going to be joined by a lawyer and a former speaker of the cross-eval state house of assembly John Gall labor Good morning John Gall labor school to have you join us no message before we take John We understand that we have the video of him how it went down just give you a summary of how it went down yesterday and they will come talk to John and We have so much to talk with to John about because I really need to understand some of these great areas in a moment And John will be joining us So all of you are aware of the acrimony that almost existed and the legal altercation that took place in river states with regards to that Now the Constitution is saying That the vats is reserved for the exclusive lease has made it clear That is how it's going to be so you belong to the federal government So we are also gender sensitive parliament like we mentioned in our legislative agenda That we're going to project gender Issues to give them the fairness that they desire as well as the quality that they desire and This constitution is asking for special seating legislature for women both National Assembly also the house of Assembly all to the Nation beyond that also affirmative action for women in political parties So it's going to be you know a space for women because they are more in number This constitution is saying we are recognizing you even our political party Affairs and the women in the house work so hard to make sure that this come to fruition especially My own dear sister honorable Kiru. Oh, no Georgia The work so hard to make sure that this is achieved for women and I think Nigerian women are going to remember them for a very long time well, and that's it joining us this morning to make sense of the Constitution amendment that's as been ongoing is the former speaker of the cross River State House of Assembly John Gall labor Good morning. John Gall is good to have you join us. Good morning. My pleasure to be here All right, so John, let's get straight to the crux of the matter Do you think that the items on the Constitution amendment items on that bill to be amended is relevant to Nigeria and It reflects the immediate needs and concerns of Nigeria at the time Yes, I think so constitutional amendment is usually an ongoing exercise depending on the circumstance of the fact Each case and depending on the issues You talked about The other time the foundation of any constitutional means public airing that means that as you go back to your Constances to all this public hearing you feel the force of people look at the other to find the needs and the areas of Priority so you form the business the main reason why a lot of items may be dropped at it after public hearing If the main reason why a lot of items may be added after public hearing is amazing why at the end of voting So the items that were earlier If you think that public hearing may not be taken so everything is dependent on the needs of society and the circumstance of this case If you look at the items rate, you will see that Partly the issue of the traditional power is quite necessary now We need it moving forward at the country to be able to achieve The true federation and then also the issues of the independence of the legislature the independence of the local government systems and the independence of the judiciary is also an important issue Against this because some persons are saying the issue of insecurity has not been I mean There's no that's really nothing to actually address the issue of insecurity And then we look at the major concern how you know funds have been shared I mean talking about the federation accounts the issue of restructuring He doesn't really talk about restructuring in his real sense how you know fund should be shared now You have some proponent who was saying that we should have been considering the 1963 Constitution that allows you know region at a time it was a regional Government that we practiced before we now and had the state government where you have the 50 30 or 50 20 and then the 30 to the polls and Some people are saying this does not really really reflect the needs of Nigerians at a time I think that This exercise He actually like that the legislative agenda is towards the setting area and then it is because of the legislative agenda that they identify the issues That's currently before the house now when you look at the issue of a devolution of power You're moving towards restructuring basically You cannot deal with restructuring Without looking at the foundation of the geopolitical zone the recognition of the street of the same geopolitical zone first Whatever You're talking about in terms of resource control also has to be there too, but we have not gotten to that point Our democracy is still not right to that point We are still practicing the unit system of government in a democracy in the sense that you have a strong federal government And then you have very weak state and completely absent local government system Now gradually with the amendment that is being proposed. I'm sure by the time we get to the next assembly You begin to see more items Now we're looking at the issue of the volition of power for instance the issues that were taken just involved the issue of power generation by state the issue of Rewire and all of that these issues are too minor. Why what why didn't they take the issue of Salim in Iraq in states? They're still critical area So you see this the National Assembly is still very protective of this of the federal government because they are also part of the federal government They are the legislature of the federal government so they're protecting a lot of these issues You have rape on behalf of themselves and the federal government now you talk about the issue of Security and insecurity is difficult to bring up the issue of security and insecurity in the Constitution because the Constitution only provides for a Framework for a security management. That is why you have what the first framework you have The various institutions you have the police you have the army you have the Navy You have the civil defense and all of that if you want to deal with the issue of security properly You have to go back outside of the Constitution to the loss of the sedition look at the police I've noticed certainly the last year or so the police act was amended to deal with the order Problem with the police is like someone that has the cancer The country in one day and the same thing with the army You know a long period of time, you know that you can't be in the issue of any by one simple simple constitutional provision so this constitutional exercise amendment some of the same as Projecting process and it should be there to instrument only we need to be able to be patient with them And then we also need to be very We need to produce constitutional activities who deal with the issue and raise the boundary of I get an agenda that the National Assembly should be within the constitutional amendment for the National Assembly I think going on now It is completely under their control the economy what they want to take a raise the issues that we need to consider amendment And then all of us flow from there. All right, Mr. Lebo, let's talk about some of the provision Thank you for giving a bit of a background concerning all that I'm Nigerians expect, you know From this some fifth and alteration, you know, there has been so much talk concerning them true federalism I want us to stay on the VAT, you know, for instance and Lagos did an aquarium. They are hailing the fact that The Senate and reps have retained them VAT on the concurrent list No, it's as though the federal government is losing out as it were, but is this you know a good development in your opinion Yes, I think it's a good development in my opinion and Because first I will I will just try to like like to do with the first the first issue Nigeria has that may be very difficult for us to develop is the fact that certain laws that have been provided and certain items in the exclusively stated list is If you continue to retain them, Nigeria is going to get into the best Developing the first of that is VAT. The second is revenue mobilization law revenue mobilization law That's we have it now in Nigeria the company in the world is such a law a law That is driven only to generate and share a law that does not encourage the Local government and the various regions of Nigeria, you know to be look on their own the law that is particularly like Revolving to be last case in the case of difficulty if the state cannot generate money Why are you sharing from the National Conference? If the reason why our GDP cannot grow the reason why our phone is not grow Because we have to share that revenue mobilization law is one of those laws that need to be repealed or amended to meet the Accidents of this the second issue is the issue of VAT I mean, I don't know in terms of those domestic product of every country the GDP But the growth of the country if you look at the GDP is the geographic is a zonal issue if you look at the America for instance, and you see that America with a 24.2 trillion GDP some states like California have three point six trillion GDP just some states like New York has one point nine trillion GDP that state in America Now if you check at the economy of Russia the GDP of Russia, the state of California is the state of Russia the state of New York is the state of Russia That is how it's supposed to be now with the VAT system You are muddling everybody under one GDP control system You're muddling everybody under one the bloc and country system legal state by The GDP of Lagos is about the shift of six leaders Come it will be a three to sixty-two country in Africa A private state will be about nine and give us to be about eleven But at this rate the structure that we have where the VAT is exclusive on the federal government control You have some states like in the north Town they don't consume alcohol the bulk of that VAT comes from consumption of alcohol Then you centralize collect all and then share it to them The person who does not consume alcohol because the skill is is a crime or is a leisure thing But it shares in the market is wrong. They are not you're not supporting productivity You're not the bloc in the GDP and this state will not continue. I know the reason why The federal government is very angry because this is for the disorderly the Supreme Court is going to deliver judgment This much I think around 15th or 16th of March and that and what that judgment is doing every week Nigeria is on the path of progress and development Okay, but just before you know We also look at another issue because the issue of local government as much as we have said that the local government Is also a third tier of government and it should be treated, you know with some level of independence Just as you have the federal, you know, the state and of course the local But some people are saying that creating because you know, you have this bill seeking to create Um, you know special funds for the local government that shouldn't be the concern of the federal government It should be within the jurisdiction of the state government and it still brings us back to the issue Why we do not because if you still talk about all of this it boils down to, you know state controlling their resources And going back to the regional system where you have states, you know Having 50% of what they actually generate and they can send 20, you know to the You know center and of course 30 can actually be distributed amongst the units as well So What are your thoughts on this one now local government should be should it be a consent Should the federal government be bothered about creating special funds for You know the local government or should that not be the concern of the state government? Okay, first of all the federal government should be concerned and the reason why the federal government should be concerned is that the local government Is the third tier of government as you have the federal you have the state you also have the local government Because the federal government is concerned about state they're even engaging in bailouts of state The federal government should also be concerned about local government That's one without the local government structure or system There will be no federal government of the new state government. So the federal government should be concerned The second reason why the federal government should be concerned is because This they basically 80 or 60 percent of what the state government used in terms of funding to run the state and the Local government used to run the local government come from the federal allocation account to the revenue mobilization So the money in the first place does not belong to the state per se Is given to them by the federal government and the local government also get the funds as well from the federal government Now what the state government has done is to bridge a gap take over the place of local government around the local government in their own style and manner Is a is a big problem. One of the reasons why we're having a security Is because of the non-existent local government system where the chairman of local government supposed to be chief secretary officer of the Local government is that the appointee of the governor is nominated and appointed by the governor through an election process And then when you have the councilor They are also like the appointees of the chairman of local government where the legislators will not have security Let's make it both where the local government security As architecture including security boats are not available The state government don't make funds available to the dialogue. It's the funds to local government like ministries and departments So it's a difficult issue The state government ought to take responsibility But at the point we are the federal government must play a role in providing a local government reform system I'll give you a typical example Number one if this state today has a ministry of local government The way that the federal government not have the minister of state In for in charge of states a minister who is super intense over all state governments No, you don't have that By the federal government but at the state they have the commissioner for local government He's literally the super chairman of local government. Then you have the local government service commission Now you mean that the local government service commission and the commissioner for local are all appointed by the governor Now we also have issues like primary health care. You have issue of Primary education and all of that. They are all there to buy the state government Now when you look at the appointment the management of primary health care The governor of the state appoint the did you or the staff of the primary health care When you look at the staff of the local government system Is appointed by the local government service commission and the commissioners are also appointed by the governor So when you're talking about special funds for local government The first thing you need to deal with is to deal with the administrative autonomy of the local government system first Unless you dissolve the joint Allocation account, which is currently in existence And unless you take away That of the administrative responsibility of local government I would only be taking away by them by state government ministries and agencies The ministry of local government are taking over 80 percent of their responsibility The commissioner for local government are taking away 80 percent of their responsibility The local government service There's no local government chairman today in Nigeria that can recruit staff into his local government You want staff you go to a local government service commission they recruit for you You want the staff you're in the local government Medical department you go to primary health care agency appointed by the governor You want staff for primary school you have to go to primary school management board as the case may be So as far as i'm concerned there's no local government system The local government system is part of the ministry of state government So this amendment is not for me is not enough to deal with the issue As long as the governors are not ready As long as the governors are not ready and as long as the local All right, uh All right, Mr. Lebo because of time there are lots of unprovisioned A lot of unvoting staff that were done yesterday But I just want to ask uh, which are Which of them were the major highlights for you because uh, uh, the national assembly also rejected pension for presiding officers Of our legislature the client down part override the president's veto Turns down proposal for special seats for women in legislature among others Which of them actually hit you as by really very very striking Um, I feel that the independence of the judiciary is quite critical very fundamental and important Because you know the judiciary is the hope of the common man and the last man and if we check In terms of our evolving democracy the judiciary has played an important role in determining What is right and what is constitutional now with the new electoral amendment system We need the judiciary to sit up to be able to put this right because you can see that politicians are still not ready To abide by that new electoral We've seen violence in different elections across the bi-election that I heard this week So you need the judiciary to stand up. So that's standard for me The second is the autonomy of the legislature. It's quite important No matter how various legislators have been hijacked and substituted by governors They need the House of Assembly to be autonomous in terms of their finances If the House of Assembly has autonomy It will not be able to sit down legislate and provide for the autonomy of the local government system Where you have the speaker and the House of Assembly members who don't have their own autonomy They will not even value the autonomy of the local government system The thought is the autonomy of the local government system and the fact that this time they have actually dealt with the issue of administrative autonomy of the local government system Again, abrogation of jack the joint allocation account commission. I mean, that's quite Good, then I'm also impressed with the devolution of powers You know, I I wish they had gone further into other issues like mining and all of that But the fact that they're there to be away the fact that they're there to power generation and all of that Is a sign that they have started so far the exclusively is too Packed up for the federal government. We need to be congested and move a lot of items to the concurrently So that is good for me I'm also not impressed with the fact that the drop the issue of women and then They are controlled in terms of Political offices, you know, I feel that that issue ought to have ended I don't know what this question is with the independent candidature You know, and then so is another issue then the office of the attorney general separately the office of the attorney general Quite critical. I doubt if the president would give a sense Social, but I feel that it's also very important and then trying to override the base of the president Is is is okay, but I doubt if the president is going to ascend that if the president himself would sign out himself The authority to ascend to the constitutional amendment I doubt either will happen, but I feel that there's quite a lot of issues and hopefully Looking at the next amendment. They should be able to deal with that issue. I hope they achieve They get the president to be able to ascend to some of these deals when he's Come on tonight for the appeal to the president for us John go lego One of the issues that I've actually, you know, really played us as a country and where we are right now As the issue of revenue generation if you look at it, it seemed to be a very, you know, huge problem A lot of persons would actually think that this constitutional review and amendment process would consider You know the funding formula funding formula Maybe find ways to allow, you know state to actually take advantage of For instance cross river states blessed with, you know, natural resources Let them, you know Harness it and generate their revenues for themselves and manage it Because that's a major problem. The idea of having to go to the center to collect, you know Handouts as some people will call it has really not taken us anywhere far with the fact that you have a lot of divestment Going on right now. You have some of these companies Divesting and then, you know Stakeholders are coming up with one or two policies, but that's on the one hand Another fundamental issue that some persons have said they say the 1999 constitution says we the people The fact that we the people never gave a consent to that constitution A constitutional amendment can never solve the problem We need to get to a point where we have a representation of the people and of course talk about the interest So this constitutional amendment process some people think that This does not solve the problem of we the people where the people originally were not represented What brought about the 1999 constitution? I'd like to show your thoughts on that Well, first of all Let's go back to the basic issues If you have three arms of government, you have the legislature whose responsibility is to pass And amend laws and you have the executive whose responsibility is to run government and the policies of government You have the judiciary that Will give justice and interpretations and revisions of the law We mean that you have a source the powers of making laws and setting Or a responsibility to the warmth of the dreams of government Now when you are when you have a mixture where you have appointed You have you have voted for your senators and members of the House of Representatives and the House of Assembly You have a source the powers to make laws to amend laws and to the constitution to them So let's go back to the basic issue. The basic issues that Nadira has a very poor merit architecture system for governance and leadership to send very poor Inequipped people to the legislature. The legislature is like a place for political contractors You know, you go there and you find people without any background understanding of what the issue should be So it is the quality of what you're finding now in the national in in constitutional amendment It's dependent on the quality of the legislators that you have I mean you have You have you cannot run away from the fact that equality legislature should be able to deal with the issue Devolution of power as it relates to revenue control And as I've been I was speaking across the space and I know that the legislature Was judging on sabbatical when I say on sabbatical because most of the issues that would have formed the base of Our legislative assembly have already been quarantined to the federal government On that the exclusive means to work with us is just to sit there and take resolutions from government and pass it and then approves The budget and then setting resolutions to go on. We do have this new series of assembly that has to be content of issues to deal with All right, Mr. Libo Thank you for all of those insights that you have shared another Provision that people feel on Nigerians feel should be looked into is that of citizen by marriage as it is right now all we have is that One on Nigerian man, you know gets married to a foreigner automatically. She becomes a Nigerian But that's not the case, you know when a woman, you know Marry is a man from out of Niger. What do you really think? Johnson, I think I think I think we thought it's the same thing. What's talking is about our Our cosmopolitan intelligence. We are developing very slow because this issue should have been It's not an arguable issue. It's an issue that should be dealt with There is a minimum international benchmark and standard for citizens management across the world And it is shuffling the Nigeria versus problem with that issue It is the quality of our representation the quality of our Our of the of the national assembly and the quality of human capacity that we have in government That's causing this. I feel that these issues we have been dealt with if you provide Any woman or in the human is a Nigerian should become an agenda the standard all over the world I wonder how are they laying about that? So I feel that we need to deal with that quickly. I'm also impressed with The diaspora voting if the asset can be given is also another issue that Is bent benchmark. I feel that we should keep moving Unfortunately, there are not the target as we expect, but given the infrastructure we go to deal with that Let's produce more constitutional activists to formulate issues for the national assembly That will form the basis of the future constitutional amendments All right, many thanks John Gaulebo. We appreciate your time this morning and making our time to be part of the breakfast We look forward to sharing your thoughts on some of these issues as we proceed Thank you very much All right, John Gaulebo is a legal practitioner and a former speaker of the cross river state house of assembly We definitely continue to discuss the great top on the list has been the fact that the women will be protesting as regards Uh, the special seats or the special seat No, not the marriage issue majorly I think the concern is about the fact that women and not uh, you know Include that given the the additional seats that were supposed to be created for women and the representation at the end of the day That's also another one. And so, um, let's see how that pans out. Maybe just maybe this law makers may kind of reconsider That particular one, but that's it. We step on the brakes right now when we return we'll be looking at our second topic Stay with us