 Let's look at Nigeria's ranking as one of the most corrupt countries in 2022. Nigeria again has scored 24 out of 100 points while ranking 150 among 180 countries in 2022. Corruption Perception Index, released by Transparency International on Tuesday, had stated this. Although the country maintained its previous years, that's 2021's score of 24 out of 100 points, there was a change in the rank from 154 to 150, that's like F9. As for some other countries, they seem to have performed more poorly in 2022. Now the tools for measuring the levels of corruption were based on prevalent indices such as bribery, diversion of public funds, public officials using public offers for private gain without consequences. The ability of governments to contain corruption and enforce effective integrity mechanisms in the public sector. They talked about red tape and excessive bureaucratic birds and amongst many other factors. We're joining us to break this down this evening. We have Wemimo Adomi, she's a media strategist and communication expert. We're also being joined by Binga Ashu, he is the ADC Chairman for Lagos State. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. Good evening. Good evening, my pleasure. Good evening, it's George, because I know you keep a colleague from the channel. George, it's so good to have you join us for a second there, I knew something was wrong. Let me start with you Wemimo, as a journalist of course, every year when Transparency International and all of these indexes come out, we're always looking for when Nigeria is. And then of course we look at the measures, whatever they're using to measure how corrupt we are or how less corrupt we are. But then of course a lot of people have been talking about why Nigeria had to move a few points up, but then still maintain a particular number. Now I want to go through some of the reasons they gave. Transparency during COVID-19, nepotism in public service, lack of adequate corruption, legal framework, et cetera, et cetera, I'll stop there. For the government of President Buhari who rode into power with the number one reason being that they were going to fight corruption, what does this say, especially as Mr. President is about to bow out after the elections in February? That's a very good place to start. No one knows that the President when he came into power back in 2015, one of the things he rode on was a fighting corruption and being a military man, I mean it was easy to believe that he would be able to achieve that, which I believe is why Nigerians voted for him in 2015 and possibly a repeat in 2019 because before then the Good Love Jonathan administration was started to be really corrupt and Nigerians were looking forward to a government that could change all of that, save us some money, jail some corrupt politicians and persons and set a good precedent for the Nigeria we want to see. Now have we been able to achieve that? I totally doubt it and I believe that the much touted slang of the President of being anti-corrupt was certainly which I believe is one of the reasons why we really badly were doing so badly. Now if you remember one of the very interesting cases from 2022 was the two former governors who were pardoned by the President. Now these two gentlemen, Yame and Dume, had been convicted and sentenced by a competent court of law in Nigeria for being corrupt up to over billions, over billions of naira were saying stuff that happened over 10 years ago. If you calculate what that money is in terms of inflation, rate and everything, in terms of possible development for their state, we're talking I mean more in billions. These two men were sentenced by the court and it was a good time for Nigeria to see oh that our courts could truly sit and sentence corrupt politicians. Now what happened? Not even half way through their sentences, the President pardoned these two gentlemen. If nothing else tells me that the President's so much touted anti-corruption slogan is possibly not deeply rooted, that was a very good example. I mean a president that had been set which would have made the public officers sit up was broken on his back. They were pardoned and four months after the pardoned they were freed. I remember looking at the photos the media of they had, they were all smiley. I mean and the remember that this index we're talking about is a corruption perception index and it is measured taking a look at the perception by businessmen and experts. Also remember that it focuses only on the public sector. So we're not talking about private sector or individual corruption. We're saying the public sector and like you said in your introduction it takes a look at how the government is able to handle corruption, how it's able to reduce bribery, how it's able to reduce nepotism, how it's able to generally reduce corruption in the public system. Now when a court of law in Nigeria sent convicts and sentences due for my governor's studio, which should have said a precedent which I think might have improved our perception and our rankings, the president goes on to pardon them. Now you asked me what perception does this further lead to? Not just for the international community but even for politicians and for public servants. It tells you that if you I mean if you play your cards well you can still as much money as you want and all you have to do is be in the good books of whomever is the president and you get a pardon as if it never happened. What a pardon means is that your sins just like Jesus said for your sins and wipes them away. Your sins are totally wiped and forgotten. You can never again be called a criminal. You can never be referred to as such. You can sue such a person. Is a presidential pardon the highest level of pardon for corrupt former governors? I think the president lost a very good opportunity to put his foot down and set a good precedent in terms of our anti-corruption fight in Nigeria. So the president might doubt that he's against corruption. I'm yet to be convinced. Let me come to you. I like that what we all made especially talked about the fact that this is more about the public sector and not necessarily sorry about the government officials and not about the private sector. But do we not also play a role in that public sector because we always solely put this at the feet of government or government officials and I mean look at what happened recently with the field scarcity. You and I cannot get access to fuel but then the guys who were selling it in jericans get access to it. We see what's happening in different sectors. You go to an office and you need to get certain things done. Well a certain lady says if you're not going to part with someone is the file is not living her table. So if we solely say that the politicians the guys who are in a public office the guys who are up there are the ones who this index is about. But what about us the people because I'm thinking did they fall from Mars? Well corruption at the level of governance is far more damaging to the economy far more damaging to the human development indices that related to the welfare of the people and that's why it's critical for that to be examined on his own merits because 90% of all income that comes into the country goes into the composite government to kudo sales. And so when you have all of this income and most of it is filtered away PWC even told the government they said right now probably by the thousand to a thousand five hundred dollars per individual per person you know is connected to corruption in this country which is basically our GDP most of the GDP per capita is lost to corruption. So if you know our GDP per capital is maybe say five thousand dollars and two thousand five hundred dollars of that is lost to corruption that means you're left with just half of that you know to run governance. So that's why it's critical to examine that and to look at the holistic way to attack the issue is cultural it's become a major problem and the system of governance which we have right now is not helping it's top heavy it's egimonious it's very expensive and it doesn't allow for transparency the president came as a military person but he cannot rule as a military person he has to deal with the judiciary now he has to deal with the legislature now he has to deal with state governments that have in the constitution their level of independence so he cannot by fear you know say whatever it is that he wants to say and make it happen he has to negotiate his way to things he has to give and take us to be compromises and that's exactly what you saw there with the partnership you know it was basically but I'm going to give you a pattern because I need you to do this for me that's something that's been done over over over decades ago as well so it's a cultural problem it's a it's a government problem and nobody has been able to get to the root of it which is at the end of the day is greed as poverty is a lack of faith in the nation as a nation a lack of patriotism it's a key reasons why people fail infinity I can do what I like because I don't care about what happens to the people in this country I don't care about the country itself I don't care about the future of the country which includes the future of their own children so we need to really really go back and do a deep dive as to the root causes of corruption at every level whether it's a private level whether it's a business level corporate corruption or whether it's the government level but the one that has the greatest impact is political corruption that is exemplified by what happens at the top of government in Nigeria I just want to push you a bit further because we we we we talk about these issues of corruption and and nepotism or bribery and just as you said in the last statement that you know you can do whatever nothing's going to happen but does this not put a question mark on our judiciary I mean these these arms of governments are supposed to check each other and and I don't know if there seems to be any form of checks or balances but then the judiciary like we say on the streets supposedly the last hope of the common man but is it is there really any hope in our judiciary today in making sure that people are one way or the other like she said like the women were said some guys are walking free today because of presidential pardon so why should the simple person not also want to be a politician so they could steal their share of the national cake sometimes it's the law itself that is weak the law the law itself the constitution and the laws and the acts that are connected to these issues are not they're not clear-cut enough for you to diligently prosecute people so when you have a great area someone steals money and then he says oh I gotta prove to steal it and then you know so technically speaking he says I cannot go against my principal because my principal says go and collect money and I had to go and collect the money so I didn't steal the money he stole the money that's using the law playing playing with the law because he's gray as gray area so when you go to court there is a there is a presumption of innocence and based on that presumption of innocence diligent prosecution is required now the government does not have the expertise and the capacity to diligently prosecute corruption the people in legislature the the the various attorney generals in the state at the federal levels most of those lawyers don't have the right to kind of experience and government cannot continue paying private lawyers to prosecute its own cases so essentially the justices are hamstrung by the fact that this is what the law has permitted someone is not paying their taxes and they go to the you know they go to the law books and use the law books as a base for saying what the law permits me to do this and do that and do that so this is all I can pay you and the law permits it so so those are the key reasons why the legislature will seem to be weak because if you go if they if they send someone to prison for corruption person goes to appeal and takes a just a little principle the law to you know to make a case for themselves their appeal court is going to overturn it and then they will go to the supreme court and so some of this case is going for 10 15 20 years and governments change and governments change and political parties you know new political parties are controlling governments across the country and then the the decision by the new government is might be that oh I don't want to prosecute this case anymore so it's of no political use to me besides I need this gentleman in my cabinet I need this person in my political team so I'm not going to prosecute that case and this is these are the things that happens if the law itself you know pardon me it's it's it's a piece of ass we need to change some of these laws themselves some of them are cake the laws that we you know we take over from the British that we have not tweaked you know because we're coming from a parliamentary system into a presidential system so some of those things need to be looked at by a law reform in itself by the judiciary they have to be able to do that and then it needs to go through the national assembly to ensure that new laws are better laws are passed and then the prosecution is easier you know most that's achieved okay let me well I'm coming back to you now because we can't keep I mean there's a lot to do but I want to ask you a two prong question because of because of time the number one reason why these people still ranked Nigeria where we are today is absence of transparency during COVID-19 now you and I were here we heard about the palliatives it became a thing and we saw the blowback of the palliatives right across the country and all the drama that was around COVID-19 and how government was being or most of the issues and the monies were shrouded in secrecy I know that a group called follow the money are still dragging the federal government on the issues of where did the money go in terms of COVID-19 now the second part is do you see Nigeria coming out of the doldrums of corruption anytime soon we're getting ready for another election season it's happening in 24 days how ready are we to fight corruption or stop it or are we just managing with corruption okay let me let me start with your first question now that's a very good question or let me start with the later one can we get out of the dungeon we certainly can I mean like the other speakers said Mr George where we are is remember that we're talking about this ranking we're talking about I repeat is a perception which is why sometimes perception can determine a lot is the perception that people have that's why you hear that I mean perceived justice sometimes is even more weighty is weighty at than the justice itself if people do not perceive that justice has been served now can we get there it's easy to say that the people who become the judges and who become the lawmakers that we refer to they come from the common man they lead the vote of the common man they step by the vote of the common man they collect the pvcs of the common man they block the common man from getting their pvcs it's a multi-layered unfortunately multi-layered problem but I believe a lot of our leaders are dancing around I mean recently the president said he has tried his best that's a very convenient way of saying oh things are bad and I pretty much did what I called and left the rest it says his garden is best and he doesn't believe he's appointed anyone I am disappointed because the box stops at the table of the person who was voted in and you hold the power particularly as as the head of state now can we change this perception we can interestingly I'm one of those who believe so much in the in the in the concept called Nigeria I believe the Nigeria can grow the Nigeria can become better the Nigerians can be served as citizens of the countries but the people that they vote in the power what we need and I believe it might just be a stroke of miracle that what we need is two tenors of two people who would put their foot down and say that we must kick corruption out let me put you in a tight corner quickly my time is up they're telling me I have to go looking at the 16 presidential candidates and of course you might not know all the governors across the country but for the presidential candidate who's who are these two people who would be able to put their foot down looking at the list of these presidential candidates so is it to say I've been you know I mean I've been a journalist 11 years these things are not easy for me to declare on public platforms but in my personal analysis of the three top most candidates I'll put my faith in Peter Obi in the truth and this is because we've seen what the other parties have done the ACC is not is not perfect I mean they are still there and so I mean and we see the clash some people would say that uh internal is internal rank glint within the APC is trying to discredit the presidential candidate of the APC but that's what them to deal with and we see where we are have they done well in terms of infrastructure or yes but so many other things that could have been fixed were not I would say let's give it a fresh shot let's give it a I mean the other two parties have had their time let's try a new party like I said a stroke of miracle maybe this is it maybe this is it and again they already have that when they become president they are president unless we vote them out again okay well I want to say thank you George Ashiru is the state chairman of the ADC in Lagos and what we're doing is a media strategist and of course we always have the pleasure of having great minds on this show thank you lady and gentlemen for being here thank you my pleasure all right well that's the show tonight we will be back tomorrow still talking for development I'm Mary Anacorn don't forget you still can get your PVC before INEC puts a stop to it it's your passport to a new Nigeria have a good evening