 Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go-to podcast for the most cutting-edge insights in functional and integrative medicine. I'm Dr. Jill Your Host, and in each episode, we dive deep into the heart of healing and personal transformation. Join us as we connect with renowned experts, thought leaders, and innovators on the forefront of medical research, empowering you with knowledge and inspiration on your journey to optimal health. Today, I am so excited to get to know and learn with you, with my host or with my guest, I should say Annette, and may I ask how you pronounce your name? I'm going to say it right. Verbio. Verbio. Yes. Awesome. Thank you. I should have practiced before, but I thought it was a French, sorry. Yeah, it is French. It is. It's beautiful, Verbio, the founder of Posture Pro. She's a Canadian entrepreneur, therapist and internationally recognized posture specialist known for her expertise in restoring the brain-body connection. Her groundbreaking Posture Pro method taught to professionals worldwide incorporates advanced rehab and injury prevention techniques, and her renowned postural evaluation system has a proven track record of eliminating chronic pain, enhancing strength, and improving sports performance. She's collaborated with elite athletes and prominent teams, such as the 49ers, the Florida Gators, and state police officers. She actively contributes to posture, health, and performance research, presenting her work at prestigious conferences through industry events and media. She advocates on good posture, leaving elastic impact on global health. I'm so excited to talk to you today, because I think a lot of people may not think about posture as like the first line place to go for health. But like I said, I can't wait to learn. Before we dive into all the details on how posture can affect your health, tell us, how did you get interested in this area? What's your story? My story is, as a rehab specialist, I quickly came to realize that the results that I was getting in clinic were short-lived. And this, I guess, forced me to look a little bit deeper and dive a little bit deeper as far as trying to understand how or why I was not able to actually resolve the issue once and for all. I had started noticing that, although the results seemed to be there and there seemed to be some kind of alleviation of the symptoms, they always came back. So I couldn't understand. I would just look at their posture and I was like, but that shoulder is still lower, that hip is still rotated. And so I'm, let's go on the table. Let's try to work on you. Let's do this. Let's do that. And how are you feeling? Oh, I'm much better. Oh yeah, range of motion improved. But nonetheless, the problem would always come back. So I was stunned to find out, especially to realize that the role of the brain and the nervous system is not something that is taught in the schooling system of rehabilitation. We are taught to look at a specific segment or a body part. We're taught that anatomy, we are taught anatomy from a segmental perspective, meaning we're separating the body into different pieces. And we've created therapies that focus on muscles and joints and the way that muscles and joints move. And in theory, this makes a lot of sense. But in a practical setting, this type of approach doesn't address the way that motor control develops in the first place. And it all begins with your brain. So putting the pieces together and starting to incorporate that brain-based approach into my practice is what led me to where I am today. Well, what's so neat is you and so many of my guests, what I see as a common element is this curiosity, right? Like you've seen clinical practice. This is not quite working like we were taught. And like what else is possible? And then you go deeper and find out all these connections and you bring something new like you have that really is transformative. So let's go back to just posture in general. Tell us a little bit about why is posture so core for everything else that happens in our body, including our brain health? So I don't think, I mean, posture is not something that's really looked at in the context of rehabilitation. The brain-body connection basically stipulates that is a system that works both ways. The brain affects the body and controls the muscles and the joints and gives us a sense of balance. But on the same time, the double highway here is that the body needs to be able to pick up information from the outside world and give that information to the brain so the brain can make the best appropriate decision in regards to your movement and your pattern and your energy consumption and whatnot. So this multi-component sensory system is, in my opinion, what is fundamentally missing in rehab or when we're talking about prevention or global health or wellness, because I have found that when someone is in pain or has an imbalance or is suffering of chronic pain, there is always an imbalance with that sensory motor system, that brain-body connection. Now, what differentiates our approach from other approaches is that we focus on influencing the subconscious proprioceptive system, proprioception being your sense of perception of where your body is in space, whereas traditional methods, such as the ones that I was taught, will often target the conscious proprioception. And I found that for me, this is what has made the greatest difference in my practice and certainly with the results that I've been seeing since 2006. Wow, so this is fascinating. And I want to get my head around, and for those listening too, this is kind of new. But it makes so much sense. I'm just going to give an example in the movie. You can dive into specifics or give us an example. But years and years ago, I had severe low back pain, got MRIs on my back. And of course, it looks horrible to generations. Some narrowing of foramen that are impinging on nerves. And I thought I was destined at 35 years old to have low back pain. Well, today I have none. And it's because of changing movement patterns, changing conscious thought. And I don't even know all the stuff you have to offer, but I'm assuming that's not uncommon to have someone who thinks that they're going to have degeneration or looking at an MRI or picture of the structure and saying, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. But the truth is, it doesn't always relate. So take my example or another example of anyone like that. And how would you go about it? And how would you actually change that perception of pain through your methods? Well, so we begin with someone's body stability. Just to give you a little education on as to what proprioception is. So we'll have our sense of our muscles and our joints will give information to our brain in regards to our body position. And we match this information with what we're seeing. And feet and eyes will affect our sense of balance which is our vestibular system. So if there's, for simplicity purposes, if there is a mismatch between the information going into the brain. So for example, if I'm sitting here and I see a train moving in front of me and I have the perception of is the train moving or am I moving? If there's conflicting information between my sense of balance and my visual system, the part of the body that is going to take the slack will be the muscular system. So if we're living with these, if we're on a daily basis have conflicting information that's arising from our inner ear and our eyes, over time, these imbalances become stuck. Kind of like this muscle imbalances become stuck in that pattern and we learn to live and function and walk with these imbalances. Now we know that movement activates the brain but this is where in the example that you've given if you're moving with a body that is misaligned it's just a question of time before you wear out your muscles and your joints which then will be the pain. So that's your- Okay, that's as I keep going. Well, I'm sorry, I was gonna say, well, that's when you get the MRI and they say, well, hey, you have discol degeneration or degenerative disc disease or whatnot but the point that, I mean, the perspective that we take is what we would wanna prevent that from happening, right? Most people will go into an MRI or we'll get a partial assessment when they have pain but there is a way to prevent this because if we just look at someone's posture and assess them beforehand, then we'd be able to prevent a lot of things. So keep correcting me if I'm wrong because I do not know all of this. You are the expert but I just wanna understand it. So my thought is that if you are walking around and you're structurally not aligned and you're getting this disinformation from the vestibular system and the balance system and your proprioception, right? You're trying to, and your brain's trying to make sense of all that, right? And so then you have to adapt and you might have like an inactivation of a certain motor system or a lack of pulling the pronation of your foot or something, right? And so do you actually go, do you watch people move and actually change it from the movement to the brain or do you change the, how do you go about assessing someone? So in a non-moving posture. So before we have you move because movement is a succession of different static postures, right? It's like a card game when you go like this and kind of movement happen. So we'll look at static posture first. I wanna know what is your weight bearing surfaces? Are you, and we can measure this with a force plate. We have very precise numbers that will show us if your weight distribution is, let's say you weigh 100 pounds. Are you 50-50 and are you 25-25 on each foot or are you leaning most of your body weight on the forefoot of your left foot, right? And if there is an imbalance there, then the muscles and the joints of that, the lower body will overwork on one side and underwork on the other, which will lead in what you've just explained different types of muscle compensations or muscle tightness. So the first thing is how, what's your foot posture like? Then we'll go and look at eye movements. And we know that then these eye movements, the ocular motor muscles, which are the muscles that attach to your eyeball, how is your eyeball moving in the socket? And what we find is more often than not, there is an imbalance with those ocular motor muscles, which then leads to further compensations to the way that you weight bear your entire body weight and then try to balance your body as you're trying to move through space and just walk or jog or live your life. Then again, these imbalances will then further decompensate the body. And this is where imbalances in the vestibular system will start to become a reality. And this imbalance in the vestibular system, since the cerebellum and the vestibular system work hand in hand, then there's gonna be imbalances in that unconscious system as well. The erector, spine, those tonic muscles will be imbalanced. And this is happening at an unconscious level. People will notice and will say to me, oh, I've noticed I always tilt my head when I take a selfie or I'm always leaning on one side or if I look at my shoes, an example would be, take a look at your shoes. Are they wearing out unevenly? Are you wearing out your jeans on one side more than the other for gentlemen that are listening? Are your suits tailored in such a way that one arm is longer than the other? These are all signs of these partial imbalances that we think are normal, but are really just adaptive to a underlying imbalance in the nervous system. Oh, this is so fascinating. So my thought is vestibular, I send people all the time to vestibular evaluations in therapy, especially after a concussion or sometimes like toxic in effects of mold or things or infections can affect the brain. So you're starting from assessing posture and then assessing vestibular system. And then what do you do as an intervention? Because like a vestibular therapist might give eye movement exercises, right? Where do you start? Cause there's so many areas here that could be compromising and I'm so curious as to, do you start with the brain? Do you start with the eyes? Do you start with the posture? Yeah, so we'll start with the feet always because there are some studies out there that do talk about how weight bearing surfaces can affect eye movements. And we know that eye movements can also affect weight bearing. So it kind of goes both ways. But because individuals walk with their feet, they don't really walk with their hands. The evolutionary process, we'll start with the feet first. And a lot of times what we'll see is that some eye movements will improve with foot correction and the sense of balance will also improve. So we do these basic tests where we can test to see if the stability, the imbalances, the vestibular system has improved simply by working on foot correction. And we do this by using therapeutic insoles, which is one of the products that we use. And the therapeutic insoles were born out of the science of the fact that we have these sensory receptors in our skin that respond to frequency. So if we then use that frequency to stimulate those specific sensory receptors, the question was, can we improve someone's stability or decrease their instability simply by working on those mechanoreceptors, which are those sensory receptors in the skin of the foot? And it turns out that the winning frequency is a 90 Hertz frequency. So when we use that frequency under the sole of the foot, the brain perceives this information, you're not gonna feel anything per se. And consciously this information is being picked up by the skin. And then the brain simply projects the motor commands more symmetrically in the body, which results in better posture, better upright posture and better balance. Hey everybody, I just stopped by to let you know that my new book, Unexpected, Finding Resilience Through Functional Medicine, Science and Faith is now available for order wherever you purchase books. In this book, I share my own journey of overcoming life-threatening illness and the tools and tips and tricks and hope and resilience I found along the way. This book includes practical advice for things like cancer and Crohn's disease and other autoimmune conditions, infections like Lyme or Epstein Bar and mold and biotoxin-related illness. What I really hope is that as you read this book, you find transformational wisdom for health and healing. If you wanna get your own copy, stop by readunexpected.com. There you can also collect your free bonuses. So grab your copy today and begin your own transformational journey through functional medicine in finding resilience. Oh gosh, this like I said, it's so fascinating if you are gonna get tired of me saying that, but I'm so interested. So you start with a feat and that can actually change the balance, change the vestibular system, change the eye movements. You're going from bottom to top. Give us examples of, I'm in your bio, you've treated athletes, you've treated police departments, you've treated all kinds of. In my practice, I have just chronically ill patients. What's some of the patients that really benefit the most from this kind of therapy? Oh my God, everyone, everyone. You're saying everyone, right? Everyone, who would not benefit from this, but let's talk about the last study we did with Massachusetts state police, clinically speaking. Police officers are probably the profession that is under the most stressful or chronic stress, right? So we wanted to see if there was a way that we can help them with just regulating their stress through posture correction. And there were three criteria that we tested with the Massachusetts state police was grip strength, shooting accuracy, and blood pressure. And what we did is we simply corrected the feet with the therapeutic insoles, pre and post. And we had some clinicians on site that would verify if the blood pressure did indeed decrease. And keep in mind that some of these officers were on blood pressure medication. Others weren't. Some were younger, some were older and everything in between. And what we found is in all 13 officers, all 13 of them improved in their blood pressure reading. Their shooting accuracy also improved as did their grip strength. So we know, I mean, I've seen this, I've been doing this since 2006, but it's nice to have the validity of that clinical study that at least you're like, wow, there's really something that's there that confirms that through foot correction, you can have an impact on so many systems and just improve wellness and longevity in anyone really. This is amazing. So what about post concussion? Is this some area that you treat specifically? And I'm assuming it would improve because you're addressing that. Yeah, I mean, I think with post concussion, there is improvement, but what I would say is, you can avoid a concussion from happening, right? If it usually is through a sport, I work with a lot of athletes. But what I will say is that if there has to be rehabilitation after the concussion has occurred, it's always going to be easier to rehabilitate that athlete. If before the concussion, they were better aligned. So if their eye convergence was perfect, if they had good posture, the protocol and the treatment protocol post concussion will be easier and much, you know, the results will be quicker or should be quicker if there are obviously no other issues. You're putting the favors on your side to have successful treatment. And of course with concussion, the regular protocol that has to go through will go through and will unveil. But, you know, that disconnect, that brain disconnect is always going to be faster and better when posture is better aligned. Amazing. And obviously the police officers are stressed, those things that are totally unrelated, we would think from posture improved. What about children? Do you treat children? Do you see kids of different ages and how would they benefit? Yeah, so I love to begin with children. I think that prevention starts with the children and where this becomes really interesting with children or even with adults is looking or the understanding of how primitive reflexes are going to affect what it is that we're seeing. If the primitive reflexes are basically movement patterns that we all have when we are born, that allow us to develop our muscular system. They develop in specific stages, allowing us to control our muscular system and move within the environment. And what we find with the, what I started finding is that by correcting foot posture, I was actually able to, in not all of the cases, but in many to improve primitive reflexes, simply by working through the feet. So I was like, oh my God, what is happening here? I mean, I was testing it with kids, testing it with adults. And I was like, from a four out of four, let's say we're talking about an asymmetrical neck reflex, which is basically when you turn your head on one side, the body will follow, which is a positive reflex with adults and kids. I would see that through the insole correction, we would get a massive improvement in the integration of those reflexes. And this is because we're having an effect on that primitive brain through the vestibular system by improving body upright posture. Really, what we're doing is we're changing the autolithic system, which is constantly, constantly, constantly projecting on the muscular system. So I do work with children. I think that for parents, it's important for them to know if their child has retained primitive reflexes. If they do posture correction insole's eye exercises, then primitive reflexes, but also the jaw, everything related around the jaw, breastfeeding, jaw development, proper tongue posture is also gonna have a huge role because we do work with the jaw as well. Feet eyes and jaw is what we work in clinic. And we address the jaw with a functional activator, which is basically a device that just positions the tongue on the palate. So it does not move your teeth. It's not an orthodontic device. It serves one purpose and one purpose only is when you put it in your mouth. It forces proper physiological tongue posture, which allows the child or the adult to breathe physiologically through their nose. Wow, so, oh gosh, there's so many questions I have around this because the jaw is huge. I've known that from dentists and the TMJ's autonomic. Tell us a little bit about why does a jaw have such a big profound effect on the autonomic nervous system and posture? And let's connect those dots for people who don't realize the connection there. Yeah, so the jaw is really four systems in one. We have the actual joint. We have the muscles, we have the teeth and we have the tongue. And what we know is when the proprioception of the jaw in itself is within, which means that the sensitivity of your teeth, the contact of your teeth, that is how proprioception is relayed to your brain. Now, what ends up happening is if you have what dentists call a premature contact, which means that when you open and close your mouth, if instead of all of your teeth touching together, there is a contact prematurely on one side and then boom, there is an adjustment, which is kind of the same thing when you're walking, if your heel is not landing properly on the ground, then that information is gonna be picked up by one of the biggest cranial nerves in your brain, the trigeminal nerve, and that's going to discharge everywhere. It's going to, it can affect your eye movements, it could affect your vestibular system and if your vestibular system is affected, then that is going to create stress and anxiety in your body because you are physically unstable and instability causes anxiety. So now anxiety, cortisol and so on and so forth. So when we're talking about the jaw, what we wanna make sure with children is is the occlusion with newborns, ideally they should breastfeed as long as possible. And one thing that you don't wanna do or make sure is that there is no thumb sucking, finger sucking or these pacifiers so that you can promote a jaw development and chewing hard food as much as possible and movement as much as possible. Everything that we're not doing anymore with our kids pretty much is what we need to change. But then what we'll find is that if there's this asymmetry and in pressure with the jaw, it's going to, there are some studies that are showing or explaining that the position of the lower jaw will affect the sagittal plane and that goes back to the feet, the eyes and the vestibular system. So understanding this connection even for dentists or anyone that's in rehab is extremely important because this is a global and holistic approach to the body, to body stability as opposed to cutting the body into different segments and saying, go see a dentist and go see this. I mean, dentists are great. I mean, we need dentists, but they're completely unaware of the role of the jaw in regards to posture and balance. Gosh, that makes so much sense. And even when you talk about the police officers or blood pressure, many people would like, why are those connected? But what you're saying is that all of this, starting with the feet, the jaw, all the areas, the eyes, it actually sympathetic, parasympathetic effects our whole autonomic system. So if you are in a chronic state of imbalance, you're also going to be in a chronic state of stress. Is that correct? Correct. Yeah. Correct. Absolutely. You completely nailed it. And if we have, then the question is, if we have constant stress, a constant release of cortisol, which is the hormone of stress in our body, what will then end up happening to, I mean, then there's a cascade of events that could end up happening from even a digestive perspective or just even a wellness perspective. Your ability to, your blood sugar levels will be affected. Your digestive enzymes will be affected. It could affect the hydrochloric acid in your stomach. It could affect your pH balance, your blood flow, your enzymes, and the list goes on and on and on. And this is just stemming from cortisol. So if posture can affect our stress levels, nevermind what's going on in your life right now, it would make a lot of sense to indirectly tap into posture to help us better manage our stress. And this holds true for children as well as adults. Yeah. I'm just thinking back and maybe you can comment on this. Who knows? I was born, I had severe allergies. I had swollen adenoids and tonsils. So I breathed only out of my mouth for the first five years. I sucked on my fingers, probably up until about five years as well. I did breastfeed, but it's interesting as you mentioned all those things, I'm sure all of those had a huge effect on my whole sympathetic, empirosympathetic. And then later on I got cancer at 25. I had Crohn's at 26. So as I'm hearing you talk, I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense even in my history. There was probably a lot of things. Now, do you ever see corrective, like Invisalign or braces make things better or worse because they're clearly affecting the vaults and the tongue and how do you feel about those kinds of things and good or bad or neutral or? Well, everything is good as long as we're considering all of the sensory entries that are contributing to posture. So it goes back to what we were saying at the beginning of the podcast, unless we're working on each and every one of those sensory components at the same time from a multi-disciplinary approach for an extended amount of time, this is where we'll see the fastest results. So if we work with different treatments or mouth guards or whatnot for the teeth without considering that there may be an imbalance with the eye muscles or an imbalance with the feet, we'll have a correction with the teeth, but this correction will either overcorrect or undercorrect because there are still a source of imbalance that is going on in the body stemming from either the feet or the eyes. And the same holds true for the feet. If you just decide to address your foot without looking at your eye movements or your jaw, then you have two other sources of imbalance that are contributing to the instability of your foot. What I'm proposing is an approach that addresses all of the sensory components at the same time for a minimum of six weeks. For a minimum of six weeks. And six weeks, why six weeks? Because that's roughly the equivalent of 10,000 hours, which allows for neuroplasticity to occur and become permanent and be fixated in the nervous system and in the brain. And then we just reassess, how are you feeling? How are you doing? How are your symptoms? Of course, with everything, Jill, that you're doing right now or any other functional neurology doctor or any specialist out there really that cares about their patient's health, whatever it is that you are doing, if you add posture correction to it, you will just propel the results. This is amazing. So you would start, so let's walk through what you would actually do in your program and kind of the devices and things that you've got a lot to offer. If you're listening and you wanna know where to find her, we are gonna list all the resources, all the websites, whatever you have for us. So don't fear, I'll have those for you and we'll talk about it at the end. But take us through, like say someone, let's say a 40 year old female with some low back pain wants to optimize her posture. What would you start with a feet? Give us a little bit of like a, how would you address her? What would you start with? Yeah, so I'm looking at her stability, doing different types of testing to see if her vestibular system is involved. I'm gonna be looking at her weight-bearing surfaces. Is she leaning more on the left or the right or the forefoot or the rear foot, the toes or the heel? What's going on here? I'll make, I'll couple that information with their posture or sagittal plane, frontal plane and transverse plane. And I will of course match that with their pain level. You know, what are they restricted in? Do they have pain right now? Can they bend over forward or whatnot? I will then look at primitive reflexes as well. And then I will correct the foot with the insoles and then I will look at the eyes to see if there's also an imbalance with the eyes. And if there is, I will do some visual eye exercises to unblock their diverging or hypoconvergent eye. And then I will reassess. And that's typically what a session looks like. And the question on the eyes, is it like convergence and divergence and tracking and the stagnants? And is that the kind of like a typical vestibular assessment? Yeah, not even as complicated. I will just, you know, have them converge and see what's going on. And what we find is that nine times out of 10 there's a diverging eye. So the first goal for me is to correct the diverging eye and to restore proper convergence before we start looking into any other issues. And then what we find is when we do that, the imbalances that we saw in the sagittal frontal and transverse plane as well as the instability test, nine times out of 10 completely improve. Wow. Alongside, alongside with their pain and their movement restriction. And that's before you do anything with the mouth. You do the feet and the eyes first. Exactly, exactly. Typically the symptoms that someone will get when they have a jaw problem that predominates, now the jaw will affect the feet, the feet will affect the eyes, the eyes will affect the feet. So it's all linked together. But which one is causing the problem first? If there's an occlusion problem, typically the patient will feel the pain in the morning when they wake up. If it's more of a visual problem, and if the eyes, the ocular motor muscles are causing the imbalance, then the pain would be felt towards the second part of the day. And if it is all day long, then we're talking about the feet. Wow, fascinating. Now, obviously if people can see you in person, that's amazing. But do you have a program where people can do this either virtually or online? Or how would someone, if they wanted to see you or get assessed, how would they do that? Yeah, so we do offer online consultations which can be found on our website. And for any healthcare professional that wishes to learn these methods, we do offer courses as well, depending on where you're at. And if you're looking to implement this type of method in your practice, we do offer the posture pro method. And then we have other programs that are more introductory to a brain-based approach. We also have programs that will talk about the jaw exclusively or the eyes exclusively or primitive reflexes exclusively. But the posture pro method is what is more for professionals or for anyone that's looking to really combine this in their practice and make a living out of it. That's exciting. So you have the ability to teach someone like me or someone else who's in any sort of healthcare field to assess and give recommendations. Absolutely. Amazing. Oh my goodness. Yeah, cause we need more people like you out there which is why you're here. I love that so much. So give us maybe a couple examples of some of the cases cause I can see how there's probably things that you wouldn't expect to improve. And you might have seen like the police with the blood pressure or their grip strength. Like those things I would not have expected to improve but clearly you went in knowing this is a whole body thing. What are some of the surprising things that you've seen in certain cases maybe that have been really amazing? So the one that stuck with me the most was Parkinson's disease stage four. This was right at the beginning of my career. I have to say that I didn't have the knowledge that I have today nor did I have the confidence that I mean I had the confidence in the science but there's always that part of your brain that says what if it doesn't work? Right. It doesn't work. And I had this lady Diane. Diane, I still have her videos. I was actually stumbled upon her videos last week as I was looking to do a video, different types of videos from my social media platform. So she ends up having stage four Parkinson's and she says to me the doctors are not sure that it's Parkinson's nobody can figure out what's wrong. I have extreme pain. I'm completely unstable. Can you help me? And I was like, honestly, I didn't know. I'm like, I don't know. And what's the worst thing that can happen is that nothing happens. And I should release her videos now because at the time my social media channel was not as big as it is today but her testimonial is eye-tearing. I could not, I mean you feel her passion and this completely changed. And what I did is I just addressed her foot. I had her eyes, muscles work out and what I did with Diane is I worked on her scars as well. She had a big scar and I worked on the scar and the changes within 24 hours were life changing. And she literally called me and said, I'm coming back into your office. I need to do another testimonial. And she's just laughing, laughing, laughing and screaming of joy. So I have to say that that's what really stuck with me. That was really it was Diane and my very first assessment was a knee surgeon here in Montreal that was retired that was unable to just get up from a chair. He had gotten two double knee replacement four years ago and he just basically said, I'm unable to just, for the last three years I just can't get up without my cane. And it turned out, same procedure, let's assess his posture, let's correct the feet, let's look at the eyes. They all have a diverging eye by the way. We work on the feet, we work on the eyes and within 45 minutes I have the guy just standing up without any pain, without his cane. The whole family just rushed towards me, hugged me crying tears and emotions and everything. And these were really moments that shaped my career. Yeah. I love that you've taken it and now you're teaching doctors and it's again I can just tell a fellow healer the heart of number one curiosity because it took that to get to where you're at now. But number two, just being creative enough to really create a system that works that you can multiply, that you can share with people. I just love this. So tell us where can people find you? Where's your website? Of course we'll include these links but if there's any specific products you mentioned the feet they can actually get insoles as well, right? Yes. So the therapeutic insoles is the product that I've been using in my practice since 2006. Ever since COVID we've released other products that are more affordable for certain folks but the ones that I strictly work with are therapeutic insoles which can be found on our website posturepro.co. And our social media channels are also posturepro at posturepro. And we've had a custom, a mouth guard, one size fits all I'm gonna have to say because we can't customize it to people's mouth but we had a mouth guard created called the functional activator to help with tongue posture because I could not find a mouth guard when I was working here. I was like every single mouth guard I'm putting in someone's mouth and they're coming in with their mouth guards I'm testing them and it's creating an imbalance. I mean, you could see that it's either blocking their cervical rotation or it's increasing their instability. So I'm like, well, if it doesn't exist, I'll build it. And this is where we came up with the functional activator and we've just added recently a vagal activator as well which are these really awesome devices. It looks a little bit weird but you put it in your mouth you kind of flick, you flick the tab and it creates this vibration that helps boost your vagal tone and it's very efficient at just giving you allowing you to relax fairly quickly. Amazing. So what's for you in the next five years or so where would you like to see yourself or your work or the world or just cause we all need someone like you or there's so many people who are suffering with pain and that what would you see as the next step? Yeah, so the next step is called Symmetrix.com. I love it, you already know. I do, I do. It's the next step is Symmetrix.com which is basically a fusion where posture correction and jaw alignment will converge and we're also looking to create a multi-disciplinary clinic where we have different doctors that are gonna be working under this clinic. The work is in progress, it's not yet launched but we are collecting emails and our waitlist can be found on our social media channel and when this is released and ready to go we will certainly send an email out to everybody but this is where I envision myself in the next five years. Amazing and I love that you've really put efforts into multiplying your knowledge cause it's so often you get this incredible practitioner who knows so much but there's only one of her. So I actually really love that you're training and teaching other people to do what you do. Well, I'm so grateful to be able to do that through other practitioners, I'm able to help so many other people where I would otherwise not be able to reach. So, and it's through podcasts like yours that I'm able to spread the awareness. So I'm very grateful and thankful to be able to speak on your podcast today. Well, you are welcome. It is absolutely a joy and treat to meet you. I look forward to watching the progress and like I said, if you're listening we'll be sharing all the links where you can find Annette and her work. And again, thank you sincerely for the amazing work that you put into the world. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill. Wasn't Annette amazing the power of posture? Who knew that the jaw and the eye movements and the posture could affect so many different systems? I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Stay tuned for future episodes or release new episodes every week. And you can find all of my episodes on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. Please do stop by and leave a review. It helps us to reach more people. If you want transcriptions or audio recordings you can also find all of the old episodes on my website, jillcarnahan.com. If you want to research products or services or some of my favorite things you can go to drjilhealth.com and find everything you need there. And thanks again, look forward to seeing you next week.