 Welcome back to the breakfast this morning. And of course, we're still having a conversation on the president's statements from yesterday in a reaction to incidents in the southeast. He's also spoken with regards to INEC offices being damaged and preparing for 2023 elections. We're speaking still with Nikolasi Bekwe, an investigative journalist, and Mr. Ikemesit Effiong, the head of research at SBM Intelligence. Nice to stay with us to both of you. Thank you. I'm going to go back to Nikolasi Bekwe. You're from the southeast. You've visited the southeast a lot of times, like you've said, lately. But I want you to speak on the incidents and how it makes you feel seeing the almost complete militarization of the southeast in the wake of these events. You spoke also of Operation Python Dance, Python Dance and Stegwiki, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and the new ones now. But there's people who have mentioned that there are certain parts of the southeast that when you walk past, you have to raise your hands up. You have to step down from your vehicles and lift your hands up before you pass. How does that seem to you? Well, the southeast has been heavily militarized even before all of these. I mean, try and travel to the southeast through the festive period, and you would count tens of checkpoints from all the way from Oral down to even from, yeah, from Shagamu actually, the amount of checkpoints you would count. And these are politically aimed at southeast-town travelers. I mean, if you have traveled on the road in the north before you became very insecure, before you become a security thing to do now, have traveled in the north, have traveled all the way from Kervi states to Kaduna on the road. My brother, I did not see one police checkpoint from Kervi states to Kaduna. I did not see one police checkpoint. That was a long trip lasted for over six, seven hours. I did not see one police checkpoint on the road, not one on the road. So if you compare that to a short trip from, even from the headway, I mean, I am from Oyu, and I am traveled towards the Owi Rionisha road. I mean, in the ordinary days, you could see up to 15 checkpoints in that short distance. So the southeast, what we are seeing today is not new in the southeast. We have seen it in the past, this reason of hand and everything. It does have the intensity. We are seeing that now. And this is part of the reason why we have this discontent, this distrust for the government or anything government in the southeast. Because people, because you also observe southeast, and perhaps one of the most traveled people in this country. So they go to other places, and they don't see this kind of heavy security, even as of this, as of the period when the southeast was peaceful, when there was no attack of any form. We have this heavy militarization of the southeast. And they say these things and they come back, and they are wondering, what is happening here? Why do we have this, I mean, heavy police and military presence in the southeast? And we don't have it in the north, where we have bandits and everything happening. We didn't have any of these. So it's a concern. And the government has to really see that. And we think it's approach. I mean, I was in the, I was in the Garden of Top Army Officers, because a few days before the National Army staff had that unfortunate crash. It was actually at the Garden, anybody. When I was, I was called, as a discussant, to come and discuss the image of the army and all of that. I was there. And I told the all the redneck generals who were there, I mean, and I told them, you've had pints of dance, one, two, three, four, three, six, what have you achieved? The southeast is still resting. I've come back to become more powerful. You beat people on the street, you fuck people, you shoot people. I mean, there are straight bullets killed civilians, young kids working on the street and everything. What have you achieved? It doesn't achieve anything, because except you mean your aim is just to go there and suffocate people. If your aim is to find the lasting solution, and you have tried this over and over again, and rather than solving the problem, it has worsened the problem. Don't you think it's time for you to think of a different approach? You know, so that's what I would tell the government. The evidence I've done there. Look at the evidence. Nothing has been solved. I mean, the the shots have become deep in. The security has become deep in. They've sent in shots of force and everything. That was the time the government had them. They made him slip through their finger because of this so harsh force and all of this nonsense that they were doing. So, I mean, it's nothing. How much you look at it? Alright, let's go back to Mr. Effiong. I saw a couple of comments in response to the president's handle and the sweet home yesterday. And people, you know, had mentioned that, oh, you know, there was something similar that happened or, you know, a similar reaction from the presidency before the incidents and reaction to the Ansar's protest October 20th and the incidents in Lagos that night. And so, there are those fears. So, I want you to speak on the possibility of tackling the criminal elements in the southeast that have led to the destruction of INEC offices and police stations without having any innocent casualties. Is there still that possibility seeing the reaction of President Obama-DeBouyre yesterday? I mean, even without the president's reaction yesterday, the possibility of, you know, the security authorities are carrying out any of the activities without, you know, the set of, you know, under the set of, you know, human rights or, you know, without anyone being susceptible to human rights abuses was probably nonexistent. Our security authorities have shown and have a well-documented track record of human rights abuses. So, that wasn't going to happen. The president's statement probably just amplified the space, you know, and the opportunity for that to happen, you know, which is tragic and unfortunate because, like you rightly pointed out, we are coming on the back of, well, coming on the back of, I think, nine months now since the end-to-hours protest, you know, very little has been done to tackle the issue of, you know, of police and state enforcement brutality. And we are looking at a situation where the military is about significantly, the security authorities in this case, well, of course it's not just the military that will be, stay ahead in these activities. You're looking at a situation where the security authorities might be, you know, might significantly escalate one of those more latent, you know, one could argue, frozen conflict, right, that we've had in Nigeria for a while. So, whichever way you look at it, the opportunity and then, you know, once you sit with that within the context of Nicola's point about the South East being overpoliced and over militarised, it is basically that the security authorities are forming a game, right? You know, they are used to doing things, you know, the way they've always done things, especially in places like the South East and getting away with it. And there's nothing to suggest that this time will be any different. All right. I want to go back to Mr. Ibeque. And Mr. Ibeque, you mentioned earlier about, you know, the state of roads leading to the South East and how it seems to be so heavily criminalised. And after, you know, the alleged assassination of Gulak two days ago, the Arawa Consultative Forum had a meeting yesterday where they issued a travel advisory to Northerners against travelling to the South East because of, you know, all the insecurity challenges. So, with, you know, with this new travel advisory, the murder of Ahmed Gulak in the Southeast, you know, just all the security situation there, burning of police stations, attacking of INEC offices and police officers at checkpoints. How do you think this is affecting the image of the South East as a whole? This is my, this is my major concern with ASM, or IPOC. How do you turn your homeland into a war zone? I mean, my understanding of war is that you go out to fight war, you fight the enemy, maybe at the border of the town or something. You don't invite them to come in. I mean, so Ndumdi Kanu seems to be, seems to have his mind set on one agenda. He has this Biafria, this Biafria utopia that he has in his mind. And he doesn't care how many below of Ibo's would have to sacrifice for him to have his Biafria utopia, where he becomes the supreme leader. Already, IPOC members are referring to him as the supreme leader. So, I think there's a cause of personality in the form of what we have in the King's family, in North Korea, already been built around Ndumdi Kanu. If you see the way IPOC members digitize him and worship him, they physically have defied him really. So, that is what he wants. He likes the trapping. He likes almost, and so for him, he doesn't care how many people has to die if that is the only path for him to get there and he thinks this is the only path for him to get there. So, and the government is basically playing into his hands. So, the point I keep saying is that it is this happening because I have folks who live in the southeast who calls me. Businesses have shut down. Life has not been the same in the southeast since December this year. You know, things have become very difficult for the people who are the people are concerned. People can't even speak freely. If you understand the way the southeast traditionally is cultured, it's a Republican culture where everybody has the right to hear their views. I mean, if you go to, we have a meeting where people sit down and discuss issues over and over and over and over again before they are resolved. This is the misconception that most people from other parts of the southeast had and say, oh, people are not united. No, we are united, but we believe in discussing in dialogue. You know, if you live in dialogue and discussing issues before we reach a solution, we can be in the village. We have different children in the village. I mean, if you have like five or six people in the village and six of them or maybe four of them say they're doing something, the fifth people can choose to say, I don't want to do it and everybody respects that and they are fine. That is how the Igbo culture is. But look at what he is doing now. You can't even debate with Canon, not the Canon and his followers. It's either their way or the highway. Okay, so let me say break away. The last question for me today will be earlier. You mentioned about how it seems the south easterners are being marginalized and how the president needs to make sure that everyone has a sense of belonging. You know, seem to have that, you know, belief that they belong to one Nigeria. And we know that southerners have been coming for, you know, the presidential slot saying they're the only, you know, region in Nigeria that has not had a chance to be president yet. And we know there's a controversy between APC, PDP zoning the president for 2023 to the southeast. Do you think a south eastern president would solve all the agitations and make south easterners believe that they indeed belong to one Nigeria? Also, do you think that with all the insecurity and, you know, agitation for a Biafra Republic, that even the APC and PDP will be confident enough to even zone the presidency to the southeast? Mr. Ibeque and Mr. Efen, please. Quickly, so that Efen can end is that first in place, the misconception, there's a lot of misconception that the people who are acting for Biafra is just a fringe amount of people in the southeast, not the whole of the southeast. So it is wrong to paint the whole region with that rush of that we want Biafra. I mean, what the south easterners need is a place to do their business. We are business people. We want to trade. We want to move city. We want to be able to import our booze. We don't want our booze to be stuck at the port for weeks. I mean, we want to do business. We want to make money. We like the easy life, but not that that is punning. It used to be the, I mean, I used to call it Nigeria and Las Vegas. It used to be the enjoyment city, I mean, in the southeast, you know. So we just want to do our thing and go. And it's also a misconception that they say, yeah, we understand that for equity and all of that, the military should rotate and all of that. But who are those that money for them? Is that the politician in the south? So the southeast presidency solved the problem? I don't think it will solve the problem unless there is, the problem can be solved by not some president who addresses those concerns and those fundamental concerns and not that of the presidency to come to the southeast. They are far from that. So Mr. Effiong, okay, we hear you, Mr. Effiong, what do you think about that? Do you think if we have a president from the southeast, you know, that will solve the issues there? No, not necessarily. And I think it's a bit of, I should probably not use, you know, the word and it's all. But I think it's, I think it's disrespectful to the sensibilities of the southeast to imagine that if you wave it to them at them, then, you know, all of those historical, political, you know, and social and economic issues that they've had within Nigeria states because that's really what the president is. The presidency, yes, is powerful. The president has a significant amount of, you know, leeway under our constitution and under our democratic tradition to get a lot of things done. But mainly occupying the position is not a guarantee that the right policies, that right policy framing and thinking will be enshrined. I mean, you know, look at our current president who's from, you know, who's from the northwest and look at what the security and economic situation in his home region is. So, so it's really not by that. Would it help? It would help somewhat. But the fact of the matter remains that any Nigerian president that appropriately engages with the southeast, that is smart and is intelligent and brings the right people to the table and gets the right policy setting right. Done. We will go along with what's addressing the situation in the southeast. It doesn't have to be someone from the southeast. It just has to be a president that has a national mindset. Mr. Ifeong, finally, and you know, I'm going to bring in a very tricky angle, you know, in reaction to the president's messages yesterday. I saw two particular messages that I thought were very interesting. The first one is from a guy called, from a handle called FS on the school Yousuf. It says, my heart goes out to every Igbo in the country. I bear, I may not bear your name or speak your language, but I share your pains, light, strength and love to you all. There's also another one from Emi Abaga, the rapper. It says, all of us non-Igbo Nigerians should make tomorrow a day of solidarity to stand with our Igbo brothers and sisters. We cannot fix the years of hurt, but we can say, well, we come with one voice, say we are one, we are together and all of that. Yeah. So is this an interesting angle in reaction to this? Well, it is from the standpoint that you are, you are seeing a clear generational divide in an understanding of how national issues and how national politics work. Now, for a much older generation of Nigerians who oftentimes participated or were born, you know, during and under the scepter of the civil war, they are very, very deep historical and animosities that remain. Is that apparent in, you know, in our generation, in Nicholas and mine and your generation? That's also apparent, but I think one of the things which is shifting is you're now seeing an increasing number of Nigerians, especially those who are not of the southeast for a south-out extraction, who are making an effort towards educating themselves about the issues. And the part of the matter remains that if you closely watch and observe Nigerian politics, then it's very, very clear and apparent that policy making towards the southeast is significantly different from policy making for the rest of the country. You know, it used to be the case that, you know, the south-south also used to enjoy, well, enjoy isn't the word, but the south-south also used to be at the receiving end of that kind of policy setting. But, you know, the debate around the derivation, right, in the early part of our return to democracy post-1999, went a long way towards addressing that issue. That uncoupled, you know, with the fact that, you know, our dependence on oil receipts has only deepened, right, within that time frame. The southeast has not had the opportunity of having a concerted, nuanced contextualized, you know, and far-reaching conversation with the Nigerian state that the southeast has been able to have. Until that conversation happens, lots of Nigerians and especially young Nigerians will increasingly see that dichotomy between the way Abuja treats the southwest and all of the northern regions and increasingly the south-south and the southeast. And the logical question is why? As long as, you know, that imperative for that questioning or that line of questioning will remain, then you will see a lot more people who actually will speak up about this. And not just people like Likunas and I who are from the region or who are close to the region. All right. Thank you very much. Ikemesit Effiong. Thanks for your time this morning. Nikola Zibikwe also. Thank you very much for joining us. Yes, thank you very much. And for spending your Wednesday morning with us. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes, and we need to remind Nigerians that the message really is unity no matter whatever it is. The hope really is that the presidency drives towards ensuring security for all and that we all leave it in unity and peace. It's a wrap here on the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. My name is Annette Felix. Thanks for joining us. I am Osalge Ogboa. I'll see you at 9am for the news brief. Good morning.