 It's if you don't adopt it now. I feel like your competitors are already doing it. Yeah Welcome to the Sevo show. We have Ashay Shah here. This guy met him last year and I fell into the marketing world by accident. He will find out in a second but The way that I describe Ashay is he's an ads guy, but more so he Understands what needs to be done behind the ads. He's not just going give me the money and I will run ads and You'll get no results. This guy actually posts the ROAS the return on ad spend his receipts with his clients on LinkedIn I vibe with that a lot because it's complete transparency and what does the customer want return on investment? Making sure they don't waste money and most importantly They're not just making a two-time return where they're paying for their initial run and paying for his services It's way more than that. Thanks for coming in. Thanks Sevo. Glad to be here. So Let's go back to the beginning. Who are you? How did you get to where you are today? By you know, like why by marketing bro, what the fuck why marketing? That's a great question So I'm gonna take it back to probably high school I was really smart. I should say book smart in high school quite good at maths and science. So I was like, what can I do in uni? Naturally, mech-edge Engineering is like the logical choice to do so I was like cool. We're good at maths and science Let's just go down that path because I have no idea what I want to do From high school literally So yeah got into Curtin Uni for mechanical engineering did three years of that and then I did vacation work at very large mining company For three months and I was bored shitless the entire time. I was like, oh my god What like I can't do this for the rest of my life If this is it if we're gonna taste in like three months so then Only had one more year left. Yeah course. I'm like, I'm gonna quit right now You may as well just get the piece of paper and then I was like, let me Tack on finance as well or like a commerce kind of thing because like always like business my dad has always had a business a Group in Kenya. So all my uncles everyone's been in business for like a long time since I was born. So Naturally, I'm like, cool. Let's just do commerce. We'll learn about the big world of business We can then graduate uni and just be super rich So tacked on finance as well and then I think is in our fifth year of uni me and my best mate Tommy we We're seeing on the beanbags at Curtin on the grass here if anyone knows where the sloped area is and then Like let's start a business because like, you know, like we're learning finance here Commerce the best way to learn is by actually doing it. Let's get our hands dirty. So let's like start something and we're like I don't know what the hell will start. So love it. He had a the great idea of We should buy drones really cheap online and then flip them. I'm like now that sounds pretty stupid Drones are not not gonna be a big thing at all in the world. That's dumb Tommy. Why would you say that and then? We did some research online and then it just popped up on the corner like you may also like this and it was a bubble Soccer suit. Have you seen? Yeah? I was like, that's the one that sounds like pretty cool because I haven't really seen that in Perth So she definitely like Go down that pathway. I did some research Fannel is only like one or two companies. We caught up Yui on that day to figure out cool probably insurance is probably gonna be the biggest cost for us Let's kind of find that one out And then they couldn't insure us because it was too niche so we just dropped it there and then I Think I went traveling for like two or three months and then the summer break Came back to Perth and then I caught up my mate. I'm like, hey Are you still keen to kind of do this because it's our final year here in UD like we may as well just do it now I had a 3000 bucks. He had 3k We just put both our last 3k in to kind of buy the first batch of Equipment that we needed and that's how we got started with bubble bash Now to answer your question with marketing So because we were very bootstrapped we were doing everything ourselves So that's where we're to kind of learn about marketing kind of hiring team members all those things ourselves So that's why I learned about like social media advertising Google advertising all those kind of sources to bring in new clients because Our friends and family like it's only so much you could do so we like needed to get customers So that was my introduction into marketing. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And how did your business go? Learned a lot from bubble bash. Yeah, so um God so we did a Really good growth curve was we did a hundred bookings in about three months because we thought we'd be extremely genius And we did a scoop on deal Turns out back then scoop on like it was just Power to him because they they taught us a lot But um, yeah, we were working like absolute dogs in that one but pretty much in three months We doubled the business so we can buy a second set as well. Yeah, so our capacity increased that way But we kind of ran that business for about Three years I think wow three years is a good run three years. We started another brand called Archery skirmish as well because we're like let's diversify we because people only buy bubbles like a once They're not gonna kind of do it twice. Archery skirmish archery skirmish. Yeah It's like bows and arrows with the foam tip arrow with bunkers and stuff. So the smart idea was like, yes I've played that. Yeah, I played that at what's it called the That center and of Vincent Strait Lot lot this yeah, we've done a few bookings there. Yeah, that would have passed. I don't yeah Yeah, but that was I think that was like in internal setup because they drag it out of that office But that's cool man. So three years for going back to bubble bash your your bubble soccer. Yeah, was that your first business you ran? Yeah was the first one. Yes, and how old are you then? Go go back to 2016. So I would have been It's a very great question. Go to some quick maths here. It's probably 24 Amazing 24 so 24 was your first business now before for the audience because because the younger audience will be listening as well And was there any was there anything you did to start making money when you were younger than that? Paper rounds. That was my that was no actually. No, I got to take it back Okay, the first dollar I ever made was I Did a lemonade stand with my cousin when we first came to Perth here. Yeah, that was outside their house. So that was a first Dollar, I guess I made and how did you go you made a dollar how much I have no idea how much we actually made I think people just feel pity on us. So they gave us like some some coin But that was like the first one. That was the first leverage you had Get the pity. You're a child. Yeah That's rocket Is it wrong to teach your kids that? No, but then the second one I think was a couple of years after I probably still my teens But I went around the neighborhood to wash people's windows and cars. I thought like cool I don't know what it was. I just want to make my own money from like a young age So that was a second thing I did and then another guy I think just let me do it because I went like think probably 20 houses Everyone said no, then one guy thing felt sad for me again. Yeah, he's like sure you can wash my car My very first dollar I made was probably either paper rounds or my mum was actually doing tailoring and Suit my alterations for a brand called man-to-man at the time Yes, yeah, and my job was to un-unclip the the bottoms of the you know, let the let the legs down a little bit longer She gave me two bucks a pair of pants and I would do like one pair like in five seconds I'm like sick sick. Yeah, and and then I remember my first $50. I made there's a picture of me holding it in my PJs Like my first 50 bucks. Yeah, and what I bought with it a fox. You know that brand that yeah I bought a fox hat a red one and I was like Yeah you know consumerize yeah, and Then after that my favorite story of my teens entrepreneurial side of business It wasn't an official business. It was technically illegal or frowned upon I guess but I would go to my sister's Daycare Center, and they had all these chocolate boxes to sell. Yeah, and I'm like, I'll do that Fun grab that sold it within a day. Yeah, it was in half a day And and at the time is when my year year 10 they banned sugary like lollies and stuff from the The canteen I was like, okay, we can still fundraise and Wicked and then I would go back to the child care place and go sold another one sold another one sold another one Give me the envelope of the money. Yeah, and I thought it was great And then I thought I didn't like the part where I had to give the money back So then I'm like, what do I do now and then I discovered the bulk shop, you know the bulk bulk save Yeah, you know and the zombie choose There's a box of zombie choose for $20 and there was 50 of them in there Yeah, and before the ban of sugar the zombie choose that were best They would be sold at school were selling for 20 cents each. Yeah, and I was like Profit Marge, that's what I've learned about profit marge is the first time so I was like no I'm gonna sell them for a dollar see what happens. Just see what happens. Yeah Got a coca-cola one coca-cola flavor because I was like that's my favorite Went out there tested the market in the school grounds and had a couple people go on a dollar. It's a rip off I'm like, where else are you gonna? Yeah, joy or not? Do you want to hear and then within one one lunchtime I sold it out and I was like Okay, so I made $30 profit. So when I got two boxes the next day and My hot my school bag by this time it's getting pretty heavy with the candy and lollies. Sorry Australians So anyway, I sold those two boxes in a day and I'm like, I'm not I'm up. I'm at a hundred bucks started with 20 I'm doing good here and The best thing about that was I mentioned my mom with every school story because she's a teacher at school I had a stock room Eventually I had five boxes at home at my mom's in my mom's office at school Good God, so I could go to school with the box in hand sell it all before school Run to her office to see if I can grab another box And then see if I can hustle throughout period one and two before recess and then recess Business is open. This is booming, you know lunch get a third box. I think I think I made a hundred and 50 bucks in one day record and I'm like, this is fun. This is really fun. You know, did you not get caught like did not people not like This is the best thing about having a communist coming from a communist background We all have each other's backs So the teachers caught on to saying what are you fundraising for because I was like the only one selling anything And I was doing it openly where everyone else like would bring like a couple of lollies in Yeah, on the slide. I'm like, no, I go I don't give a fuck and I was like, yeah I'll a footy or something. So they would go to mom naturally. I'm like And well, she's like, yeah I Like that that was like the real proper start of like The business journey a business journey and if you and if you have an idea and you give it a go Yeah, you have setbacks. You can have a team of people or like my mom She was she was my you know back-end operations manager. She's like no, I think the main thing I'll say is what you got feedback as well Favorite one was coke. Yeah, you said so, yeah Yeah, Coca-Cola Coca-Cola. Yeah, not selling coke. Yeah, but um my I actually evolved that into a like a cartel sort of thing Where the year 8 I would give them 10 at a time to go sell for me for a dollar each And if they could do it they bring back the $10 and I'd give them a zombie chew for free This is definitely a gang here mate and I didn't I didn't read any books or anything about how to Diversify and branch out and you know grow the business distribution distribution. I was I just went I just It's like I felt like I invented that. I thought I was like the coolest person. I'm now look at us. That's normal But like that that time where it lived in Calgulli as well. Yeah, so I had one kid bring $20 note in 20 of them. I'm like my you're my best customer and then I started to like Nurture that relationship. Oh my god. My god, you know, like like if I can go to him every day or once a week And he can take pretty much half of the stock from one box I need a reward him. I need to nurture that and I would give him extra and then That that would build and then I just pretty much resell a whole box to one person I don't care what they did with it. They would eat it or they would resell it themselves Or I mean if they were sold at themselves cheaper to name it to the be it a loss the whole tell sort of things now Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was my first experience there. Yeah, but I Want to go back to you. Yes, and I want you to talk about Your journey from school where you were doing these jobs to then going into your Mechanical engineering. Yep. And then realizing you didn't want to do it. Hmm. You didn't want to do it because it wasn't for you Or was it it wasn't too hard? I'd imagine. I just think uni controversial kind of thing my thing use uni is actually very easy to get through easily Just gonna know how the system works. So I don't think That's you know to be fair. I think I'm quite good at learning so But I'm very good at learning logically. So if there's a formula, I'm like cool. That's very easy So just plug it in. We're set. It's a system. Yeah, it's it's binary to yeah I really hated English as well because it was subjective I hate it then in high school, but now I'm like they got to start you think they're yeah, yeah Yeah, we're hard at the time. Yeah, but now I'm like that was so powerful It teaches you negotiation and you know persuasion and all that stuff. I love it There's no right or wrong. I learned in in that class as long as you can kind of Reflect like yeah, we're like, so why are you thinking this way? Yeah, but they didn't Get get that in our heads back then so I still had it. Yeah, okay So I remember I remember because I I've got a science degree. Yeah, so I was teaching science at school as well I ended up teaching maths, but science was my thing and Physics was a unit I was looking very much forward to because I love physics at school, but I couldn't do it at school because I had cam I had all the TE subjects and I couldn't I couldn't do yeah And that's where my self-awareness came in and realized I need to do Jen when I got the physics unit at uni I was like, oh shit, but then it clicked. I was like formulas. Yeah, okay What do I put in the formulas variables? Yeah, where are the variables there? That variable is goes for that letter. It's like it clicked right and then I remember the exam and I write learning is so outdated But I remember I was like, how do I study for this? It's gonna be multiple choice. It's gonna be calculations. Okay Let's see if they have previous Exams exam papers from previous years I was like, I'm gonna look back about four years Back back back and then have a look at them all and now I started noticing patterns Yep, same and I'm like, oh shit and I looked at the last the the previous year's one Nothing changed from that last one to the previous one before that So I'm just gonna study every single question here and specifically cater to it And at the at that time I was still a hardcore procrastinator Yeah, so I could have done a lot better, but when I opened up the first page in the exam I was like no fucking way same one. I was like I can literally speed run through this I was the first one out of the exam. I had to wait. Yeah for the you know how like you have like a first half hour window Nobody can leave. Yes. I went Yeah, and I'm ready. I left and everyone's like what the fuck Smashed it as I'm saying uni and school. It's a system Like because obviously they got to have a system in place to teach because you can't make it too broad You just understand that it's easy to kind of pass there. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So you're you're finished. You graduated, right? You got graduated uni. Yep. Got my two pieces of paper And um Going back now to reflect back. Yeah, what skills did you Learn from within the uni system that you can Say you use now best skill I learned in uni is how to learn Okay, because you're just learning all sorts of engineering law, buddy finance This is it's just how to learn and I've applied that now to business and in life anyway, because yeah, and you didn't You didn't learn that in high school High school. I think was just Look again with the maths and the sciences. It's just a formula. So I don't actually know the concept if I actually learned it I just knew how the formulas worked. Yeah, there wasn't a why explained They did explain it, but I just didn't give a shit too much. Yeah like 40 watermelons who gives a shit Yeah, but I just like The formulas here like I don't really need to understand exactly why they do this But it just makes sense here. Just change this here. We're sweet. We're done. Yeah So the first segment is done. Yeah, and I'm trying to segment segmentize this Podcast now to really make it clean. Yeah second segment. We're going into now your transition into the real world Where you finish your studies? Yeah You've got your businesses that eventually Did they fail did bubble soccer fail? No, we sold it actually you sold it sold it during covid as well Can you talk about that? Yeah. Yeah, do you want me to talk from the From the sales from from realizing you you want to sell this like how does that work? Transition yeah, okay. Why want to sell so pretty much when I finished uni was in 2016 um And I was extremely lost as to what I want to do because I've got these two pieces of paper that I spent a lot of time And a lot of money so logically like it's probably good to go in the corporate world So I got you stuck. Hey, that's how they get you. Yeah, but then I had my businesses as well bubble soccer and That the tag so I was like I can push that as well but then That wasn't producing me enough income to kind of live as much as I wanted to so I obviously have to get other casual jobs as well. So I I was the king of casual jobs any kind of like niche you reckon I probably worked in that I was just a king of odd jobs So I was doing all of these things But then I was still very lost in life as to what the hell I want to do because I've graduated so I think I applied just Because I thought it's the natural thing to do. I think probably about 200 jobs Grad jobs in engineering in finance in government all those things I even flew to Melbourne once for a job thing there because I was like, oh, I've kind of made it this far may as well fly over But one thing that um, and I didn't get that job thank god But one of the things when I asked for feedback She goes like I'm not actually sure why you even came here doesn't seem like you Your hearts in this job like why you even want to interesting And that actually Was 100 true. I was there just to kind of tick a box. I'm like cool. I'm actually trying this so So whatever and then Yeah, that happened for about two years just in limbo land doing odd jobs and applying for corporate jobs and then running bubble soccer here and there and then one of my other jobs was working at a Radio station, which I absolutely loved. We did promotions. We did the marketing. I was doing stuff in engineering I was just doing all sorts then it was such a fun job And then I applied For a full-time position. I think three times and got rejected three times which again is a blessing now looking back, but um The third time hit me pretty hard and then I was like, man, I'm just yo-yoing. I've got one foot in bubble bash I've got one foot in this job. I've got one foot trying to apply for jobs I just need to cut it all and just have a singular Focus and then I spoke with one of my really good friends. Hirsch who's also been on this show He was running a marketing company as well. He still is um, I was living with him at the time and I think we just had a chat and Just came to the conclusion that Now is the perfect time for me to take risks Because I love business anyway, but like I'm single. I don't have any debts. I'm pretty free. So if I fall flat My worst case is I go into 150k five-foot job That's my worst case because I've got the two pieces of paper. I can easily kind of just get that done But with business like I'm young now. I'm as we'll just take the most of it So that's when I decided to like call up every job I hadn't said no That's my last week. It's my last month. Like I'm like set. Yeah, you had a safety net Yeah, that was it and until I had a contingency plan. Yeah, I needed to be Backed against the wall like I forcefully needed. Otherwise, I'll just be in that comfort zone. Actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah That's where most people are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so talk about talk about tell me about the uh The lack of comfort zone that you've established. What do you think you got that from? Apart from her giving the lack of comfort. Um, yeah, the lack of like needing comfort You mentioned the lady that said you're not you're not in this the right way. Yeah, and then hush said I think because my Yeah, just I didn't have the passion to kind of do that and I think Actually a really good, um, sorry Why actually kind of went on this pathway? I went to exchange and kind of have to go backtrack a bit But one of my really good friends Cal we were having a chat, uh, towards the end of our entire trip and then He mentioned a story about his dad because we were all talking about like life and what we want to do and he goes like, yeah My dad said like if you're at the train station, you can wonder Where the trains go and just sit there the whole time or you can actually hop on the train and then find out For yourself now I took that mindset back because I wasn't sure actually what I wanted to do I thought the best way is just start just do something and then the purpose will reveal itself And that's what I did with bubble soccer Super fun learned a lot of skills But then I lost the passion for that as well And then I realized I was like there's just no drive in this business So I pretty much quit all the jobs focused on bubble soccer for the next one year I said, let's just go in business and I want to start a marketing company as well at the same time To diversify a little bit Still working for myself, but it's business and just me so did that but then Did the bubble cycle for another two years with my business partner told me and then just got to a stage where I lost the love for that as well Because I was like man, we're just doing the same shit I'm not growing here. Um, so to answer your question by comfort I feel like if I'm doing the same thing and not growing. I think that's like I need something else just to push myself The bubble soccer was producing us me enough money again. I was very comfortable. So I said, you know, fuck it like Let's just sell this thing because he's got a full-time job I just have no passion for this anymore Let's try find a buyer and then I can just even go fully on kick as well afterwards because I found When you're trying to do too many things like your attention goes everywhere as well and you just Do a shit job at them all Theme of my life really. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get on to that. We'll get on to that So when you sold it you found a buyer. How did you find the buyer? So this is yeah The guy that used to work with us Ricky great man. So he was one of our contractors for about two or three years We initially pitched it to him like when we did want to find a buyer This was during covid at the start or like shit. How are we going to find a buyer at this time when everything's shut? But you know what we said it might be a limiting thing. Let's just put it out there We haven't even tried so let's just like Put some like marketing out some ads were actually for sale We approached ricky first, but um, he was working full-time at another job So like he would be the perfect person to take this over Because he knows how the dead in day runs. We just got to teach him the business side on the back end Yeah But then it didn't end up for six months. He was still at his job and then afterwards he approached us He was like, hey, is it still for sale? We're like, yes, it is and then he goes like, yeah, I'm keen So, um, we're like, are you serious? They're like, yeah And then, uh, yeah did the deal over like a month Finalize all the transactions in one shot We gave him some training for like the next three months just to kind of teach him The lead generation the marketing the systemization all those kind of things because he already knew how to run the day to day At gig so you gotta know the back end though the back end. Yeah. Yeah. And is it still going? Yeah, it's still going Insurance is a bitch. I know After covet but they are still going. Yeah amazing. Yeah, and I think also from what I do speak to him and like the marketing that he has put out or the post like he's he's breathing like New life into it. Yeah, because one thing that I was on my mind I'm like, you always spent your your heart and soul to come Do this thing with the next person take it on but when I kind of saw him I'm like, that's pretty cool all the things that we wanted to do. He's like actually doing now Yeah, well, that's that's what I really find fascinating about businesses that exist that I I look at I go you guys can do so much better with the right Branding approach. Yeah, or the the right persona online There's nothing and I'm just I'm just like Really obsessed with the idea especially with the what the americans are doing Identifying that and going can we buy your business and then then they just applying their system Into that business and then it just scales. Yeah, instead of helping them They just buy them and just do it themselves and then make all the money. Yeah. Yeah, yeah Yeah, and they're not really and there's no kind of monetary transaction apart from the sale of the business Yeah position of the business. Yeah, and then it's just their system their time their resources They already have to be and there's no back and forth. There's no many chefs to the pot It's like we've acquired this all right team bang. Let's do it That's exactly what it would kick marketing last year. I bought one of my friends thing Pretty much just to buy his systems. Yeah, because I hate that and I literally just paid him like a huge sum of coin Just to buy all that That's how you got kick marketing. No, no, no, that's how I scaled kick mine to the next level last year Because I bought another company that does the exact same thing. Yeah for their systems. Amazing How does how much does that sort of thing cost in that sort of We did a we did a revenue. Sorry a commission split over six months So it wasn't like a full amount in the from the get go but for every client that came on board We paid like a hefty comms upfront Um for that So it's easy for us for cash flow and for them in the transition when they want to wind down as well And then there's like a no compete clause after that as well if they wanted to Start another one up using their systems that they gave. Yeah, I think we had a verbal kind of thing Just like knock a peak is is a close friend as well. So yeah, I mean, I mean, that's also another topic We can get into but um, so now you've got kick. Tell me about kick. How did you decide to go? right, I'm going to now market instead of You know run run a physical business You know, I'm so grateful that I kind of just fell into this because starting kick marketing I realized how good it is to be online and like you don't need like an office space or any overheads you get paid recurring as well Paid upfront so all these things I'm like kind of fell into it without just my luck, but how I got into Metta marketing and paid ads is again my friend her she was in the google space So I said cool. Let me do the facebook ads kind of stuff Not to compete with him, but I can kind of model and see what he's been doing in his world And he was like one of my first unofficial mentors as well. So um, he helped me get my first three clients As well Top bloke got me on to uh, the who know how I read that classic book And I'm like, yeah, that's a good book. So he got me into well I kind of said cool I'm going to go into uh facebook ads because we did it for bubble bash my first ad for bubble bash He's still on my gram as well my instagram god. It's a yeah a relic So relic makes hilarious because you're just going to put yourself out there and go do it So yeah, that's how I kind of started kick marketing to specialize in facebook ads Yeah to go down that way So uh, sorry for the interruption, but this show would not be possible without the help of bright tang brewery They are the major sponsor of the sevo show huge shout outs to them check them out Great beers great people great everything and uh, well, let's get back to the episode um, if you can give some insight of where Where we're at with metamarketing meta ads for instagram and facebook What what space do you currently see everyone in? So this is a new segment. We're here. We're changing the segment guys if you're hearing this We've we've established ashay's life story We've established his business transit transition into and we're going into now the The juicy parts of uh, his specific niche. So uh, for the young audiences out there This may get a little bit boring I don't know as well. I don't know if that's good to say on the podcast But if you're looking to get into how to advertise your future businesses Keep watching this next session is definitely important so facebook and instagram right now What are people currently doing that's working? I think one thing that is working. It's never not going to work is the advertising fundamentals Just literally understanding your customer and what their pain points are and how you can actually help them your value Propositions to go to articulate that in a really good way. So that's where the copywriting comes That's where your branding kind of comes. So that's number one number two is If you go on your ig if you go on your facebook, you'll obviously just be bombarded with ads galore Like it's just the way it is But it's got about getting people to stop their scroll and say attention span whoever can control attention They control the next step because you can have the best business in the entire world But if you can't get people to take notice of what you have to do Deaf ears so when it comes to advertising your creatives That's where you come in with all the stuff you kind of do with all your hooks and stuff the graphics The ad copy all of those things. So yeah, it's really it. I've been preaching this for ages. I I've come in organically yeah, and I would be as as Recently as 2022 last year. I would go now ads ads aren't necessary Because I was like everybody needs to go long-term play long-term play if it's your brand your business You're pushing it. It's a long-term play. But then I realized people need money now and some of them have Not got any patience and they need to see results within one to three months and I'm like Ah, I mean we can flood the market with a lot of content and then you'll be able to learn quicker and then Hopefully something will hit and I feel weird saying it but there's never a guarantee And then if if you do want to put a lot of money in for one video that will Increase your chances of a guarantee whether it's an amazing hook or whatever It's still one video. So then going into quantity over quality first was always my play And still to this day everyone that's done it that I've taught to do it. They have dominated They have dominated in some way that you know and all they're learning how to make content over and over and over That's the long-term play now. We're into ads and I'm starting to really Grow myself into it going right I see the value I still refuse to learn myself. It's the who not how right? Yeah Like when we we sat down and and you told me to do something I'm like, where do I go? And then we zoomed each other and I shared my screen. You're like, that's not what it's supposed to look like That's my problem It's like you guys have all got a completely different portal You show people how to do it on that portal and then when I go do it It's completely different setting. You're like, I got you out now. You have to use me But that's just me not knowing how to navigate Instagram Facebook ads People are doing doing the fundamentals. They're looking at the creative. They're testing analyzing What is the pro tip now the advanced pro tip? To get the attention using ad spend wisely What's the pro tip? Good god. Um It's simple It's actually not that hard. You just got to literally again It just comes out understanding what goes through your ideal customer's mind And speak it out. So let me give you an example My ads actually so I work with a lot of builders and developers to join them leads My best ad is I thought about this is a lot of builders and sorry new home reps and property companies They get paid once the slab goes down Most of time So I took a picture literally at a housing block with a finger pointing up at a slab Best ad no text whatsoever stops the scroll Just got to understand what goes on in the consumer's mind. So it varies from every business to business Once you understand the fundamentals You translate that yeah And how do you how do you navigate that? Finding that with a customer when they When they don't know themselves You have an onboarding survey to kind of extract exactly what you need So just without processes we've developed over time is A lot of businesses are also too close as well to their only thing So they may think that they're really great at this or they're really great at this But it's just the story they've told themselves and because it's just too close to it So it's asking them the right questions Because whenever we bring on a client we probably ask the same question about four times and I tell them It's well, hey, by the way, we're going to ask you the same thing in four different ways Don't get annoyed if we just got to see if there's any gaps when he holds And that generally does pick up any holes because and you go oh, but didn't you say this you're like Yeah, should I did too so Yeah, that's how it works. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And is there any any specific Field that you really enjoy advertising for Properties are a main niche. So buy a leads investment property kind of leads. I really love that just because The impact you can actually make on people because actually buying a property is like a pretty big deal for most people Whether it's to live in or for investment, but that's going to leave a lasting Impression for the whole life because that's going to Help them retire get cash flow right now help sell their kids and so on So I think the ripple effect helps like it feeds my soul in property and we're also great at it Which is why we do it But another one is also in the healthcare kind of space. So like when we're dentist or like skin clinics or those kind of things because The way we present ourselves the way feel about our bodies emotionally I think is a huge deal. So if you can help someone in the transformation for example, like That feels my soul as well that we could connect like someone that had a problem with the solution with our clients Work on that bridge. So Makes me feel good that we're kind of playing up a part in the world. Yeah, yeah You're a connector, but you're optimizing it through your skills of Channeling yeah in different, you know, the way that the meta advertising space works. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool That's cool. What is what is in the near future for this Space for ads for meta ads for businesses Tell you what meta ads evolves every single week. I jump into the bm or the Account for the ads and stuff and then it just changed the whole time. So the technical platform changes all the time, but that's up to Media buys like myself and so on just to understand but I feel It might get a bit more expensive. Who knows just to market Where's the cheapest attention to purchase right now? I'd say reels Instagram rules here with ads there's a night and day difference for one of our clients literally on reels We just run ads specifically on reels That's it because that just gets the most views the most clicks the most purchases Amazing. So yeah, what sort of business is it? e-commerce it's Very proud of it actually because it's a 49 dollar product So it's actually quite hard to get like a row ass at times for like such a low value skew item But actually the key in the castle for this. Yeah, so we've spent probably about two years on this one product It's going up and down but for past year One single video that we cracked on is just producing us just insane wins like the rawest is between three and probably five Some that might be a little bit small, but for a 49 dollar product. That's really fucking good. I'd say It's video content. There's this one piece of content that we have I'll show you after Just triggers people unintentionally. We didn't even plan that it just triggers people gets a lot of engagement It pushes uh facebook ads to say it's a popular post and we just get insane reach People just purchase off that one amazing that one video and you can just let it fly We try uh Replicate that now because we obviously got the formulas we get other people just hey can you make a Same video in a different style though. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, but that's what I mean like Where I come in with the organic side And you flood the market with 100 organic videos And then you analyze from those hundred and generally it's between five to 10 percent Depending on how good you are with creative and editing and the hook And then from that you can pretty much grab those 10 percent to run ads with But in on the other side of the fence what people are doing is they create 10 videos from the straight off the bat and go We're going to put ads behind this and it's going to work Yeah, I'm finding that that doesn't work as well as the organic side, but they prefer it because of Time you get data quicker though. So again, it's it's you're either investing time or you're investing Money, yeah, if you got both then sweet. Yeah, I like that. I like I'm all for and Yeah Like long form and short form. Yeah, because I say to people I'm like, what are you doing with your brand in two to five years time Yeah, because every campaign you run once the ad spend finishes that video is gone Yeah What are you doing organically to build your brand in perpetuity where your clients your customers your fans Have your attention and you can go right Hey, I'm doing this uh next week. You should check it out. Do you know building a brand? I've actually learned How critical it is more so in the past six months because A lot of the clients we kind of work with are really great at sales So traditionally we relied on they can convert clients because they can close sales easily But if you don't have the sales capabilities and not trying to be like a scammy kind of garden thing But just how to communicate with people quite quite well to kind of guide them down the buying process If you don't have that they're going to be researching you compared to your competitors. Are you posting content? Do you have? Like testimonials. Yes. So all of these things actually I used to say like you don't need a website before but you actually do it like Validate you for the business. Yeah. Yeah, and if you're not making sales organically anyway, yeah Then paid ads are just going to magnify a problem. That's already there. So it's going to be very Critical as to when you actually start with ads as well. Yeah, I've been learning a bit about SEO Yeah, um, but I've also been learning more about the ai side of things. Yeah When I was I was on snapchat a few few months ago now I don't know if I told you this story, but um They implemented an ai bot you can chat to Okay, yes. Yeah, so I started chatting to it and the ai bot said to me What do you like to do for fun? I'm like, well, I'll hang out with my wife and free mail You know free mail specifically and he's got oh, that's cute Uh, I recommend you check out little creatures And bread and common both places we've been too frequently in both places we like And I was like that's interesting. So turn my marketing Channel on my put my marketing hat on go. Hey, listen, let's say I was starting a business in free mantle How do I get you to recommend my business just like you did with little creatures and bread and common first And it told me told me what it was looking for which is which is The website is fresh. Yeah, your content is consistent. Yeah, and you're getting google reviews Yes I didn't understand how powerful that was until like literally this year. I was like, no You don't need this and they're like, no, this is so valuable because if you get price shopped or like Yeah, if you get head to head against the Competitors if everything's the same so who they trust more. Yeah, so now I'm thinking I don't know if there's a term for this but Maybe aio. Are you artificially intelligently optimized? Or sco aio. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not trying to coin anything. Maybe I am but I realize and the the tool that I'm building ss live the There's a back end research function that we have That helps analyze the brand you drop your url in and it understands your brand It understands all the pain points and it understands the target audience the what the why the who the how Just from a url link because it stalks it. It even does like a google research to see what other people are saying Yeah, right and sometimes it doesn't work And I look at it carefully of why it doesn't work because i'm trying to figure out if it's the app or the website And more recently we found that it doesn't work because of the website We look in the website. We analyze the words and go. Oh, it's not it's it's barely seo Optimize it doesn't make sense. Yeah, it's barely it barely has any good seo and The ai now is going I'm confused so if there's a competing brand that is looking to Get that hey Old mate. No one say it because it'll trigger my phone Can you recommend me the best place to go to in free mantle? And it whoever is optimized In those three ways the ai will pick it up and go these guys And I think people will be scrambling to figure that out I think people should be already thinking about that big time because the kids gen alpha I'm saying little little videos pop up on tiktok where the kid gets out of bed And he turns on his his alexa and he goes he wants to play i'm still standing by old mate John elton john. Yeah, and um, yeah, he just stands up So can you play play this and he starts vibing getting ready for his day and i'm like that's gen alpha. Yeah 10 years from now all they're going to do is go Uh recommend me a pizza, please. Yeah bang first one. Yeah Convenience speed everything. Yeah, and these brands now are thinking about That they're not thinking about that. Actually that voice search would be like a bigger thing huge I don't think it's taken off as yet As much as I thought it would not yet. Yeah, I think the more people put out content The more voice recognition there is and yeah the more times you drop specific keywords like in this podcast Right because I look at tiktok and I see um How it categorizes my videos? Yeah, it doesn't get enough views It doesn't get categorized at all, but I'm just like, okay, we need to improve the views and then I go put in the keywords in the video that it picks up on That it's talked. Yeah spoken as well the audio and then in the captions and stuff as well But I also notice that it categorizes based off of what other people say. Yeah And technically you can think that a comment is Is a review Whether I mean my first 10 comments are just kids going first second early here went before going viral So that doesn't help me being categorized at all. Yeah, um, which is frustrating But at the same time, you know, you know, you've made it but um Like one video I was interviewing these kids from New Zealand. Yeah, and Nothing was mentioned about their accents at all But it was categorized into New Zealand accents because half the comments were oh my god They love we love their accent accent accent So now anytime someone searches the video they they or they search up kiwi accents your video bam My video pops up. Yeah, and now I'm like, how do we How do we strategize for that to do that with brands organically and you know creator Like a viral moment, but also categorizes so people find it easier searchable to benefit yet to yeah Searchable to benefit for AI as well. Yeah, because I'm I'm talking about beyond SEO now I'm talking about beyond organic content I'm talking about beyond ads. I'm talking about people's convenience and going What are they going to be doing in 10 years time to search up these businesses? Yeah And then I'm talking to those businesses now planting the seed going Do you plan to retire in five to ten years or do you want to make a play? And people don't want to think ahead that that that far Because AI as well. I think it's it's still such a new thing even though it's been out there for a while though But um, it's if you don't adopt it now. I feel like your competitors are already doing it anyway So systems. Oh my like two days ago the new gpt 4.5 turbo released and that's four times faster Yeah, and four times cheaper. Yeah for my api. Yeah for my for my my thing And my version one was Is we're still using it to test Is technically redundant. Yeah Because of their new update. It's so quick. They're just the way it goes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but um now you can build your own Your own module inside a chat gpt, which is huge Yeah, like I'm getting nostalgic feelings of when I first opened up our Um chat gpt last november. Yeah, and then this november there. It's like insane. Yeah, but I've already found the gaps. I've already found the areas of pain And I'm going oh, well, it's not good enough now. It's not good enough now But I reflect back and go what is everyone else saying? 99% of them think that my business my thing is redundant. I'm like, no, it's not version two the user interface is much cleaner much easier to use and anybody can use it You can't build that on chat gpt. Yes When chat gpt's user interface features come out, which I probably will think in another year. Yeah Then I'll then there'll be some problems, but by then I will have evolved ss live into the monster So you got to keep up with the times. Yeah Now that's my story of me adapting to ai I'm not saying businesses adapt to ai And there are Functionalities that you can get now you can code into a card Or you can get people to google review in seconds. Yeah, right. Yeah NFC chip Bang Other side qr code for an offer that car becomes your little voucher It's called tap connect. We actually made this product and we already have businesses wanting it And tap connect is just one example of a hospitality industry needing to Leverage. Yeah, you create something that people go if I don't get that and my competitor does and it works for them Holy shit That's ai so It takes it back as well because a lot of the companies on that on google During the ones I had the most five stars and the most testimonials. They're the ones that get the most clientele as well So you're not adapting to it. Yeah, we're too slow to it You'll get left behind so I haven't validated this stat completely yet. Yeah, but um, it makes sense Every point one star increase to a hospitality business. Yeah is like a between a five to 9% revenue increase That's a great start to lead in with them as well. Yeah, yeah And google reviews have released a feature a couple of months ago. Yeah, well, you can filter by star rating Yeah, 4.5 and above. Yes four and above three point five and above now when you google I don't know Wine bar in northbridge. You're gonna have a whole bunch of different bars And they're going to be sponsored ones. Yeah, your mates and then you're going to have just like SEO opt SEO right SEO bit I see some that are in the top three or four that are sitting on 4.4 Yeah, and then I can see people go on Filter by star rating 4.5 and above it disappears. Yes, then I go to that 4.4 star rating brand and go How many reviews does it have? Okay, what's the star rating 4.4? Calculated using maths To go to 4.5. How many on average reviews do you need at five stars to get that and it'll spit it out? Yeah, I'm like, oh a hundred Oh, this this business has got 350 since it's opened I don't know five ten years ago We have a product that can get reviews So much quicker than ever before. Yeah, and people are seeing those You know those google taps to google on the counter. No one gives a shit No, you see it subconsciously see it. You've seen it and you're like, oh, yeah, but you never remember to review But I wouldn't do it until they tell me to kind of do it. There's no incentives. Yeah, but even then Until they're like staring down your throat on reviewer right now You're not going to do it and they're not going to do that either because they don't have the confidence There's no incentive. Not not for the staff anyway, but I think the the hospitality industry the businesses who Realize this And make it a game and make it a competition and make it an incentive They will start to see the increase in in customer. It's just simple thing. It's just simple thing simple thing, right? Add that in with content and this is something I've told a couple of hospitality brands now Get your staff to film shit What are they doing when it's not a big rush? Are they doing odd jobs that don't really matter just because just to keep them busy so that you can validate their $25 an hour. Yeah, you know, it would validate their $25 an hour and probably get them a promotion If they create a piece of content That is interesting to the public That goes viral and they're on the front lines as well. They're the best people to do it as well The ROI on that is huge. Yeah, and they're not doing it Now I understand if you're a bartender or a waitress and you you don't want to fucking do it You're genuinely not that person Fair enough But what I reckon they should do is they can they should hire especially with gen zed and gen alpha coming into the workforce soon 27 28 of the workforce now is gen zed anyway. Yeah, they're all on their phones. They're all on tiktok all the time You need to grab your you need to hire people going We're looking for a hospitality person Who is sat uh internet instagram reels or tiktok savvy? Yeah You know many people there's so many there anyway. Yeah, and they're so quick as well just to make it They're like, how'd you bash that out? That's so quick exactly and like I know how to do it Yeah, but like I'm telling the kids now right now if you want to do a Easy job. I mean hospitality is not easy, but it is pretty pretty simple It's just you have to deal with people sports off. It's a shitty shitty part of it, right? the shitty part of the people and Even retail as well, but like if you have if you add an another skill set. Yeah, and you make that content You can leverage a pay rise you can leverage your worth you can Values a lot more because you can it's tangible as well. Yeah, and you can become a junior marketer You can you can become a marketer without a degree. I don't have a fucking marketing degree neither do I neither do I? But this is what I mean like you do not need to go to school or or you need to do the marketing What you need to do is have the passion. So I think that's my prediction like these these businesses are going to go Can you do tiktoks like would you be able to do tiktoks and then they go? What's in it for me? You know, they don't have to do it because it's just another add-on I hate it going to businesses to talk to their internal marketing teams When I rock up I can see in their eyes after the initial kind of couple of times because then they they get a bit like Oh, it's ever but after the initial couple of times they go Fuck I have to actually learn how to do this now as part of my job and I don't like it But I'm a marketer It is my job So they add the job description or whatever. I'm like, this is going to be a huge problem for companies Yeah, because they have an internal marketing team That isn't creative. So what do they do? outsource outsource and the outsource Do they know the ins and outs of the business? No, they take weeks months to figure it out and then hope that it happens for them And then splash some ads spend behind it and hope that it happens Whereas if you go internal With people inside that actually are invested given that incentive And when it starts working, I this is I've done this to almost every single client that that has taken it on They still have to do the reps so all the clients that have ever done the reps have all succeeded in this But then the next question goes. How do we measure the row ass or the ROI on it? That's when the ads really come in Yeah, like my I learned a little bit about tiktok ads and and running it all and I was like, all right I'm going to spend half a day to just come into this. Yeah and credit was good And we had it was like one of the best launches that I've ever been a part of we had so many people come in through the door It was a hospitality thing There's like a new nightclub up north But um after that there was too too many chefs in the pot and I was like, this is fucked This is fucked make this content Don't reject it Let's see how it goes Don't overthink it when it goes viral because it will because you didn't overthink it We're gonna put ad spend behind it. And if it doesn't work, no one cares. No one gives a fuck. They're gonna forget it anyway One of my biggest ones. I remember there's a story. I had I had two different People I interviewed for a content for for this concept. Yeah, and I said, what's your biggest red flag? That you see in a guy. Yeah, no an answer like funny questions funny answers And then I did it with the girl with the guy. What's the biggest red flag you see in the girl? you know Tell the red flags. I was like, great. These are both great piece of content. It's going to go, you know potentially viral. Anyway Put the girl one out does well. Yeah, sweet. Let's put the guy one out. No, I can't do it. It's too misogynistic Yes Don't cares bro. And I was like fuck man Misogynistic nice Good god. So yeah, anyway, um Yeah, that was a bit of a rant Just gonna get that off your chest. I can tell you I had to get that one out. Yeah, but um I think like what I've learned moving into this space after doing three years in with different companies like Red Rooster was fun But they're too corporate Good money too corporate And no idea, but I feel your your style was quite good because I've been following you even before we were mates I was like, oh, fuck it's ever. Oh shit because I followed you from being a teacher. Yeah, I ticked. I was like his style's Really good. Yeah Thank you Like I've had people tell me like sev ever since you stopped creating content for red rooster their content's been shit and I'm like Can you tell them that because I genuinely wanted to help but there was a moment where I Did really well. Yeah, and then they said we want you to do this we want you to do this now and I'm like Why the fuck would you want me to do that that won't work? And I don't get to be my creative self Which is what you hired me for and then I was like I'm out Do you know who's got a really good way of? Socials is Ryanair. Oh right there. They are classic every business talks about Ryanair And every business wants to be like Ryanair, but every business can't be like Ryanair because they don't have internal common People that have creative freedom 100% that is the golden rule to dominate on tiktok these days Hired into intern that understands your brand But give them creative freedom and don't freak out if they post something edgy because they post some edgy stuff It's hilarious, but I think that's where the Authenticity of the brand also comes in place because you can't fake that kind of stuff if like let's say I don't know Makas try to do what you do what the fuck like oh bro. Makas Fucking they they dropped they fumbled. Yeah, okay I had they were doing you know like every day and then someone like famous comes to Australia And then they do like a like a meal for them about them. Okay, sure like two three weeks They had the jack Harlow Whatever yeah, yeah BTS came in and they had like some Korean sauce with their chicken and it was good meal and I was like I'm gonna bootstrap this and see if I can force a meal on their menu Yeah, because I've seen it done in America. I was like, all right, I'll give it a go went up to the drive-thru I was like, this is how you get the servo meal and then I was like Can I get a high yeah? And then he goes and then fortunately the guy recognized me because you know they got the cameras He's like hi. Yeah. I was like cool. And then we drove through and then and then he played along He goes hi. Yeah. Do you say hi me? I was like, yeah hi. Yeah, and he's like yep That'll be this much and then I got my meal which was actually 20 nuggets and a sprite Yeah, because that's what I was feeling that day with some mustard Cajun fucking shit and It got like half a million views Everyone was tagging Makas. I even messaged them because they follow me on instagram after my project I did a couple years ago Nothing I'm like, what are you doing? Yeah This is this is what you need to do like I still have the most organic viral piece of content In the country for a fast food brand red rooster. Yeah, we just sat down in the restaurant and just said no one comes no one comes here look And that's what people commenting. Sorry. And then I was like paying around proof that the actual customer. I remember seeing this one Yes, I remember seeing that because that was on my mind as well and they're like that's a great piece of content No one's doing this. No one's taking the piss out of themselves because it's so fixated on yeah stay Oh my god But I think also with um with the way the corporal was it might limited kind of way into it is like everyone's trying to Not do best for the actual job. It's the best job to look good for the higher up anyway So that might be the best but the higher up doesn't get it Yeah, I don't know. So I'm excited about this venture because the ss live thing It's ours the marketing. Yeah completely ours I already recorded like 15 pieces of content With this whiteboard and it's just me being a dickhead And we'll see what happens with us. We'll see how it runs a great split test. Yeah between that one and this Yeah, how long do you split test for before you call it quits? Is there like a Where's the marker where you're going to go? Yeah, we can upgrade this to the next level You look at the data. So a classic point is we're doing a landing page campaign for a client to send traffic there Getting really good click-through rate again very technical, but that's pretty much how many people Go off your ad that have seen your ad. So that's a good ratio Very high CTR. Yeah, but then nobody signs up on the actual page. So it tells us cool the content's great The ads are great. Something's wrong on the the backside. Yeah So then we did two different versions of the landing page Still crickets on there who did another two and then bingo bang leads flooding in again So to answer your question is you just got to look at the data. So it's testing But it's also understanding how the marketing works all the click the CTRs The cost per leads all those kind of things. I'm very excited to do this testing venture And seeing what happens and that confidence is like a case in point here because I told you like we got two Spam leads. Yeah, great. It happens. But now this is where the marketing comes into it We're going to like optimize and see what's working and what's not and then we kind of fine tune exciting Okay, so we're going into the the hour now We're rolling over the hour. We are now moving into Something called pod decks pod decks. It's an app Pod decks. I have to pay for it, but it's really cool So, um, I want to go back to your personal side and ask you some questions about if you really know about the topic So, um, I'll give you I'll throw you some, uh, throw you some topics and you pick one and we'll go for it Okay, we've got the hustle So hustle life The Beatles, maybe if you're a Beatles fan Um, great inventions True crime movie night We've got techie conspiracy theories And we're gonna go with let's go with Entrepreneurial secrets Now they're not gonna be like I ask you it's not it's not trivia. It's just stuff like a topic that interests you the most that you can You reckon you could talk about let's go last one the secrets on the entrepreneurial sequence. It's a great choice. Yeah What's the scariest thing about entrepreneurship? You don't know where it's gonna go You could literally put something out amazing and think it's gonna like be the king of the world and then it flops completely So just that uncertainty factor That uncertainty factor and going through that and getting Out on the other end is part of earning your stripes as a real entrepreneur If you can't go through that If you won't go through that It's definitely not for you It's gonna test you as well because once you go through it, you'll understand what you actually made off And I know a lot of people as well like they started businesses and then it was too hard and it's completely fine Don't do something else like I think that's fine But it is gonna test you. Yeah. So what advice would you have for people who want to start the entrepreneurship Sorry, I'll start again. What advice would you give people thinking about becoming an entrepreneur? Just start Literally, I don't have I didn't have a business plan whatsoever I'm like just start because the the hardest thing is just starting I say like the hardest thing for me is like going to a group fitness class is just rocking up to the class Or actually just driving To the gym. Yeah, get in the car. Just get the door. That's literally it just start your clothes on Yeah, just start because you're gonna get feedback And the feedback is important because you're not going to get the goal from like day one. It's just business You're not going to make it perfect, but just start. That's it. Yeah. Who's your entrepreneurial idol Fuck I have a few I so one my good friends Hirsh, obviously I've just seen obviously you work quite close I've seen what what he's kind of doing just being close to just Just the hard work that he's just put in um My other friend Blake Burton as well, so I was with him like last night So I'm very fortunate. I've got like a really good close friends of like business people as well that we can vibe off Which is I thought everybody runs their own thing and has a group of friends They just run their own thing, but it's actually not like that. It's collaborative You gotta be collaborative because we were like last night, which is bouncing stuff off of this We're like, holy shit. This is going to like have legs for this new product that they're doing, but aside from like My mates are I can um from afar Malcolm Turnbull Malcolm Turnbull Okay, all right. I uh read his book and um, yeah, the guy's a G. He's a very smart man. Yeah All right, we're gonna do a speed round now cool speed round and then we'll finish it off Um, should budding entrepreneur should budding entrepreneurs take out business loans to grow their business Fuck um, not the start. No, no if you don't have the skills. Yeah do it afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, um What's your entrepreneurial backstory? Actually, we already did that one. What is your view on hustle culture when it comes to entrepreneurship? There's going to be a period when you are going to have to hustle It's not a bad thing But it's all about being consistent in business if you're hustling all the time most likely you'll get burnt out So it's about there will be periods. Just got to do it. Yeah How do you deal with difficult business related news that directly affects you like for example the 14.5 iOS update? Shit happens in business man like it's it's Yeah, you just adapt like you're never going to get like a perfect run Just adapt. That's it. Adapt Improvise overcome beggars. Yeah. And finally, what is your overall goal in your entrepreneurial journey? So that's a great question because I used to have these Revenue targets and they just fucked me up completely But my goal is just if I can help two new businesses every single month that I can bring in I'm sweet. Love it. Love it. Yeah, and for the young ones Entrepreneurship aside one piece of advice you'd give them about anything. What would it be? It's all gonna work out. It's very cliched, but It's all gonna work out. Yeah, that's it. Just like this podcast I've set it up. Got the cameras going You're seeing us here. The lighting is good. The audio hopefully is good And uh, you've enjoyed the show Please like and subscribe I hate saying that but you know, you got to do it. Got to do it, mate. Shout out to Bright Tank as always for Keeping us uh, keeping the lights on. Shout out to Camera Electronic for keeping the cameras on and also the lights and uh, the audio Shout outs to Yeah, the people watching you guys are the guys and girls that are making this happen Please review and leave a five star Thing on my thing because we're talking about reviews. It'd be good. It would be helpful If you don't think it deserved a five star review, please Comment in the video telling you why how we can improve it if you're on Spotify leave a Answer to the question of what you thought about the episode and uh for everything else as mastercard And ashay with his details in the description on both channels. So thanks again for listening as always