 Welcome viewers to our ongoing program nuclear free future coming to you for 15 years in January 2022 from Channel 17 Center for media and democracy here in Burlington Vermont. I'm your host Margaret Harrington and viewers we're welcoming back our special guest Kevin camps. Nuclear waste specialist for beyond nuclear radioactive waste specialist with beyond nuclear welcome back Kevin camps. Thank you so much Margaret glad to be here. Yes. So Kevin we have a whole, a whole lot of things to talk about. It's, as we go into probably the third year of the coven time, which of course has affected everyone in many, many ways. So, I'm going to start, if I may with the something specifically to do with Vermont, which was the Vermont nuclear decommissioning citizens advisory panel. You gave me some news about that. What is that Kevin. Well a hard one victory. After really many months but even years of effort and that was to get the Vermont Yankee nuclear decommissioning citizen advisory panel to back off of its advocacy, which began around 2015. Consolidated interim storage facilities out west. And it's fair to say that most of the panelists even in 2015 did not understand or even know that their panel was being represented as in favor of these dump sites out west but the chairman of the panel back then signed on to an initiative a letter that Yankee atomic had concocted to try to get out from under the liability of the high level radioactive waste that it had generated that it had profited filterly from. And they got this signature from the chairman of the panel onto a letter to the federal government saying open these dumps out west we want to send our waste there. So it took years all told to get the panel to back off of that advocacy. And at a recent meeting of the panel I learned that that had in fact taken place some months ago. I hadn't heard about the news so I was very pleased to learn that the panel had finally done the right thing and stopped its advocacy for these environmental injustices these defacto surface storage parking lot dumps that are targeted as we speak at Texas and New Mexico and in fact the Texas dump, which is very closely affiliated with North Star, the firm that is decommissioning unfortunately last September, got a license to construct and operate its dump from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. So it's quite an outrageous ruling by the energy. The good news is that a broad coalition beyond nuclear Sierra Club. The coalition of grassroots groups called don't waste Michigan and others that seven grassroots groups across the country, and even an oil company have all joined together with the state of Texas, Ruby read conservative Republican Texas to fight this decision by the energy and we're fighting it in court but we're fighting it in many other ways as well. Okay, I'm sorry my, my communication here froze for a bit a bit so it, it does no harm to repeat Kevin, if you will, the decision, the NRC, the NRC decision. Okay. Yeah, we've been fighting this dump since we learned of it, and really one place that this dump scheme began was unfortunately the Obama administration's blue ribbon commission, blue ribbon commission on America's nuclear future, which in January of 2012 recommended that consolidated interim storage facilities are a good idea for a plan B since the yucca dump in Nevada is not happening. So, unfortunately, the industry and the NRC nuclear regulatory commission took that recommendation, even though it's not law. It's simply a panel at the Department of Energy that recommended this idea, it's not law by any means. And they have ran with it ever since we've been fighting it ever since. I've written a letter to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in October of 2016 with our allies on the ground in Texas and New Mexico, because it was clear where they were targeting even way back then. And we said, for one thing to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, you should not process these applications because they on their face violate the Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982 as amended. Specifically, the violation is that the US Department of Energy cannot take title to cannot take ownership of commercial or radiated nuclear fuel at an interim site, unless there's a permanent repository open in the country. The reason that that safeguard was put into the law by small states like New Mexico, which has a population of just a couple 3 million people is so that they would not become surface permanent dump sites because interim storage will become permanent. If there's no repository to take the waste away to that's exactly the situation we're in. We disregarded our warning shot across the bow. The companies proceeded with applications and long story short, despite our best efforts in the nrc licensing proceeding in both New Mexico and Texas to separate companies. We were rejected by the nrc, even to the point of them mostly not recognizing the standing of many of the interveners. You have no legal right to even participate in this proceeding nrc ruled. Which was absurd because one of the groups they kicked out for lack of standing, or they never recognize the standing of this group is called Alliance for environmental strategies, which is the local grassroots environmental justice group in southeastern New Mexico, right on the border with Texas, they never got recognition of legal standing by the nuclear regulatory commission. And besides that they threw out all of their contentions anyway, that they lacked merit. That decision alone by the licensing board by the nrc staff by the nrc commissioners who backed it all up on appeal is an environmental justice outrage that nobody knows about. We continue to fight in fact one of the founders of alliance for environmental and sorry alliance for environmental strategies AFES. Her name is Rose Gardner in unis New Mexico. She has provided legal standing for beyond nuclear in the Texas dump fight. So, you know, I don't know how the nrc can recognize her standing in one case and not in another, but they did. And I don't know because rose is beyond nuclear standing in the Texas case and we continue to fight on her behalf as a member of beyond nuclear against this Texas licensing. And, you know, just today, January 20 was our major deadline for illegal filing, all parties opposed to the Texas dump were to have filed their first major motions and briefings in the court of appeals in Washington DC. And that was the biggest court in the land, the deadline was today. But just last week the court suspended the deadline. The reason for this at the last second as it happened is because the state of Texas and fast can oil have filed appeals in the fifth Circuit Court of Appeals against the Texas dump that's headquartered in New Orleans that's where Texas goes in its neck to the woods. The state of New Mexico has filed an appeal at the federal level in its circuit court, which is the 10th Circuit headquartered in Denver. This is kind of created a wrench a monkey wrench in the works because the courts now have to figure out, are we going to take three separate appeals and three separate places in the country. Are we going to consolidate them all into a single circuit Court of Appeals. So it's very interesting that our broad and our deep coalition of opposition has, for the moment, kind of fought it to a standstill. But this is really just a temporary stay on the proceedings the courts will make their decisions, and then we will proceed with the federal appeals at that point. Okay, thanks Kevin and bring us back please to Vermont. The VN DC AP resending its support for the consolidated interim storage. So what is then the, what is offered in the opposite way. I mean if they're if they're resented this support for one thing. What is the other the other that is offered. My understanding is that the end cap has no legal authority to set policy, or to take policy positions they are an advisory panel to the state legislature. And you know the state legislature could take policy positions. The end of cap should not be doing so. Um, you know truth be told, the alternative to consolidated interim storage facilities the alternative to bad siting of permanent dump sites like at Yucca Mountain Nevada, at least in the interim is hardened on site storage for waste that exists, if not on site then as near to the point of origin as possible. You know the Connecticut river, wherever my Yankee is located has had floods in the not too distant past. So the question has to be asked, is the dry cast storage at Vermont Yankee which is the current situation appropriate given this flooding risk or should it be moved some distance away from the river. Further inland to higher ground to better protect the waste. In fact, the very same owners of Vermont Yankee and pilgrim Massachusetts. Enter G nuclear in the past before North Star took over the Vermont Yankee site before whole tech took over the pilgrim site, and even further back in time Yankee atomic. There's so much overlap between these two sites. They both use whole tech containers for example to hold the irradiated nuclear fuel, once the pools are empty. And that pilgrim by contrast, they have moved the dry cast storage further from the ocean shore, further inland to higher ground. They have not done that at the Vermont Yankee site at the Connecticut river. So, you know, those are some of the questions that this panel should be looking into. And like I said, not just myself, but others from across the country and certainly local watchdogs have been attending these panel sessions, trying to educate the panelists as to the various risks, the various objections to these dump sites out west. So we're just thankful that they've backed off on their very inappropriate advocacy for environmental injustice out west. I should mention that North Star is so closely affiliated with the Texas dump. Many of the same companies. They're really the same company North Star is comprised of waste control specialists. This Texas low level radioactive waste dump. That's been taking large amounts of low level radioactive waste so called not only from Vermont Yankee but from 36 states. So it's a national low level radioactive waste dump. Other companies. Another one is Orano, formerly called Arriva formerly called Kojima, this French nuclear giant that has operations in the US. And there are other corporate partners that comprise North Star, but they are the Texas dump. They already dump low level radioactive waste, some of which is highly radioactive. That's the misnomer. Now they want to expand into high level radioactive rate waste irradiated nuclear fuel. And that's what we're fighting in Texas. Right. And, and, and Kevin, let's go to whole tech in New Jersey and the corruption that was upheld by the New Jersey court. Could you speak to that issue for three minutes, please. So whole tech, technically is North Star is competition, but they're actually in cahoots they're more of a cabal than they are competition. So whole tech based in New Jersey also based in Florida. There are big sprawling company with global global operations at this point but they came out of New Jersey. They began as a container supplier for irradiated nuclear fuel but they've expanded beyond that now. They now are decommissioning firm, they decommission Oyster Creek New Jersey, for example. And what just went down in New Jersey, unfortunately is a judge has backed up whole tax corruption and law breaking. What whole tax CEO Krishna saying did some years ago is he filled out application from a massive tax break in New Jersey to the tune of $260 million. And he lied under oath on this form. When asked have you ever been debarred ban from doing business with a state government, a national government. Have you ever tell us about it. And he said simply no, we have not. And that was a false statement under oath. Whole tech was barred from doing business for a unfortunately too short period of time with the Tennessee Valley Authority, because of a bribery scandal in Alabama at the Browns Ferry nuclear power plant. Whole tech, and there's evidence that Krishna Singh was directly involved paid $55,000 in a bribe to a Tennessee Valley Authority official to secure a contract for high level radioactive waste storage. And that official gotten trouble was convicted of receiving the bribe, but incredibly enough, whole tech has largely largely skated Scott free the giver of the bribe. In fact, they eventually went on to keep that contract at Browns Ferry. So they were implicated and debarred for a short period of time they had to pay a $2 million fine, having to do with that bribe. But Krishna Singh simply said no, we have never been debarred was caught by investigative journalists at pro publica and WNYC radio. And it led to a major investigation, and even a lawsuit in New Jersey. Incredibly, a state judge in New Jersey, Superior Court just ruled that no state of New Jersey you must pay whole tech, this tax break money that you had agreed to incredibly. In my opinion, the state judge is now a part of the corruption that whole tech, all too often operates under. And yet, despite all this, the Federal Nuclear Regulatory Commission is all too happy to allow whole tech to take over at oyster Creek New Jersey at Pilgrim Massachusetts. I think a final approval of whole tech taking over at two nuclear plants in Michigan palisades in the Southwest of Michigan, big rock point in the Northwest of the lower peninsula. This crooked company involved in criminal wrongdoing, including serial bribery has been put in charge of not only decommissioning retired nuclear power plants, but managing the high level radioactive waste at those sites and is on the brink. The NRC was supposed to, by schedule have approved outrageously the whole tech dump in New Mexico, but whole tech paperwork is so half baked. Its responses to NRC staff requests for additional information have been so bad that even the NRC has had to delay final approval of the New Mexico dump. It has bought us some months of additional time to resist the New Mexico dump, thankfully, but incredibly you know, whole tech largely gets away with all of this wrongdoing nationwide. And, and Kevin, you, you answered my, my question when I we were preparing for the show that the main issue in 2022 is your fighting it through beyond nuclear the high level radioactive waste dumps targeted at New Mexico and Texas. So this is your main focus for 2022. Correct. Yes, and it's going to intensify big time. Right. I said this this stay on the court proceedings is temporary. And once it's off to the races, the deadlines will come fast and furious but we're prepared to meet them. We have some of the best legal counsel in the country on our side. We have tremendous support in the states of Texas and New Mexico. So there's this, you know, lie called consent based citing and both whole tech and interim storage partners claim that they have consent in these places while they sure don't. Andrews County, Texas has taken the position against the dump targeted at it, which is a major reversal. They were enamored with the money they were making on low level radioactive waste disposal. While they've gotten the message on high level, and they're no longer into it. But also the state of Texas passed a law shortly before NRC rubber stamps the dump that disallowed the dump by state law and Texas in fact, the state of Texas is preventing its own agencies from providing permits needed for the dump to go forward. And the same is true in New Mexico. So I should mention that that Texas dump is a whopping 0.37 miles from the New Mexico state line. That's why New Mexico is so concerned about the Texas dump, both states oppose both dumps because they really hover on either side of the state line separating the two states. We have tremendous grassroots and even state government support in our opposition to these dumps. Right. And Kevin, let's put it into the context of the, the permanent dump that Senator Harry Reid resisted throughout his, his tenure in the US Senate. Can you speak to that issue at the moment. Harry Reid has passed. And I remember meeting with you in his offices in, in, in Washington, with the Alliance for nuclear accountability. I believe at that time, he couldn't show up for the meeting with us but I think that you later you did meet with him so could you just talk about that for a few minutes. Harry Reid was a US Senator, a Democrat from Nevada, who went on from very humble origins to become the Democratic leader of the US Senate. And when the screw Nevada bill was passed in 1987 singling out Nevada at Yucca Mountain as the radioactive waste dump for the country. The powers that be in the nuclear power industry and the nuclear weapons industry their friends in Congress and the executive branch mess with the wrong rookie senator, a farmer amateur boxer, a former capital police officer. Reid devoted the rest of his illustrious career to fighting the Yucca Mountain dump and winning. He succeeded. It was a huge David versus Goliath struggle. But Harry Reid had a lot of help. He had the help of the Western Shoshone Indian nation whose land Yucca Mountain is by treaty right. He had 1000 plus environmental groups across the country. And we stopped it. Sometimes by the skin of our teeth. But we did. So why why this is all relevant right now. I should mention that President Biden was one of the speakers that Harry Reid's funeral in Las Vegas and listed the Yucca Mountain victory as one of Reid's great accomplishments of his career, which you know, the Obama and Biden administration. Both times, recognize that Yucca Mountain, they say is not workable, which is a euphemism for the people of Nevada in fact the environmental movement of the country and the Western Shoshone will not let this happen. It's not workable. So at least Obama and Biden got that and still do. Why it's relevant still is that these consolidated interim storage facilities they use that word interim, how can they get away with saying that when there's no permanent dump site. They assume that Yucca will someday open incredibly the nuclear regulatory commission is complicit in that assumption they've licensed the Texas dump already. They're about to license the New Mexico dump based on this false assumption that Yucca will open someday it's not going to open. So what's important about the NRC doing that is they are supposed to be the objective neutral unbiased judge in the Yucca Mountain licensing proceeding which has not even yet begun. Obviously they've already ruled in favor of the dump opening, but that's to be expected of the NRC. If you know anything about the NRC, it is that it is a rubber stamp agency that gives the industry everything it wants. It may take some motions it may take some time to do so. But it does so, no matter the merits of the case whatsoever it's raw politics, it's raw giveaway to the nuclear industry. So Harry Reid fought that tooth and nail for decades at Yucca Mountain. In fact, a little known thing about Harry Reid is that he had a huge hand in stopping a consolidated interim storage facility in Utah. In fact, he had a low valley go shoots Indian reservation that would have brought the waste that close to Yucca Mountain Nevada. And then the inertia the momentum from bringing it that close to Yucca Mountain probably would have put the Yucca dump over the top. And he helped stop that. Okay, I'm sorry that sometimes the. It freezes my screen freezes and I lose some words here but, but I'm sure that they'll be on, they'll be on our program. So, let's, you just got off the doomsday clock announcement so please would you tell us what that is, and what, what you learned in that amount of time. The bulletin of atomic scientists started the doomsday clock in 1947, and for a long time they kept track of the nuclear weapons danger, the danger of nuclear war. In more recent years they've added things like the climate crisis and now the pandemic to their global review. And I attended before this interview they just announced what the current clock is set at and it is 100 seconds to midnight, which is where it's been since 2020, which is the closest that the clock has ever been to midnight, which is the bulletin of atomic scientists saying we are in much more danger of things like nuclear war and climate chaos and global pandemic, then we've ever been in since 1947. So you know there were some other close calls back in the 1950s during the Cold War, when the US and Soviet Union were really rattling their sabers. But the clock has never been set closer than it is now. And I'm not even sure you know they've kept it at the same place for 2020 2021 now 2022. When I heard them do that just now, I couldn't help but ask, but did you recognize acknowledge account for the fact that there are more than 100,000 Russian troops on the border of Ukraine. And as President Biden said just yesterday in his news conference, when wars start. There's no telling what's going to happen. So you have a nuclear armed power, the Russian government about to invade a country that used to have nuclear weapons when it was part of the Soviet Union Ukraine but to its credit gave them up. They turned to the Soviet Union. Now Russia. But of course, Ukraine has allies like the United States and France and the UK, who have nuclear weapons themselves as members of NATO, which NATO effectively is the nuclear umbrella, protecting 30 countries, unfortunately with this false notion of nuclear deterrence. It's a very dicey situation I'm not sure the bulletin of atomic scientists accounted for that little detail of the present moment that we're on the brink of war between Russia and Ukraine. And just for a moment, could you talk about, I know that you've told us before in your wonderful many visits with with this program about your starting out with beyond nuclear. Were you there at the beginning of beyond nuclear when it was founded. And when did beyond nuclear. I won't say switch the focus to nuclear power but when did it give it full balance with nuclear weapons. So beyond nuclear was founded in 2007, and I was right there at the founding. We sort of stepped into the shoes of Helen Caldecott her organization nuclear policy research Institute. We took on the 501 C3 status changed the name Helen is still recognized as our founding president. And granted MPRI was focused on both and we are to. I wouldn't say that we as as much as we try to address nuclear weapons are real focus is nuclear power. But there's that issue that nuclear power leads to nuclear weapons, the proliferation risk of nuclear power. Don't take it for me take it from Ernest monies and MIT nuclear engineering professor who served as President Obama's energy secretary, who several years ago said, we need nuclear power so that we can maintain our nuclear weapons arsenal. They used to deny that they used to claim there was a separation, but now we know there's not and really truth be told there never has been. So that that really, I know that you were, you have an active in the nuclear, the anti nuclear movement from from your very youngest days, and you, you have shared with us on this program, your initiation into this world. So, what is the, the role of money in this world. I mean it seems to be the bottom line and the top line in observing what is going on like here in Vermont. The, the issue as you have addressed it with us on this program is the transport of, of irradiated fuel to the, to the places in the West, and money, money, and government money which is taxpayers money seems to play the major role in it. Do you agree. Yes, follow the money. The nuclear power industry certainly the nuclear weapons industry have been the recipients of literally trillions of dollars I mean there was the atomic audit written in 1996 by a number of authors, and the figure that they've calculated was that $7.5 trillion had been spent in the United States on the nuclear weapons arsenal since 1942 7.5 trillion dollars. As we speak, I mean the nuclear power industry has been the recipient of hundreds of billions of dollars and public subsidies over the decades. But as we speak, the bipartisan infrastructure bill that was passed contains $9 billion for nuclear power, 6 billion for bailing out old reactors that are in dangerously age degraded. Another 3 billion for proposed new reactor designs that's already on the books. That's the US taxpayer money. The bill back better act the US House passed version contains up to $35 billion in old reactor bailouts. It has not passed the Senate yet. But there is talk of breaking up the bill into smaller pieces, the climate pieces in which the nuclear part is included is a likely front runner. Joe Manchin, the infamous so called Democrat from West Virginia is very pro nuclear power. He says he's big on nuclear. He's the chair of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee. So he's received large campaign contributions from the nuclear power industry, and away we go. Nuclear power bailouts are particularly dangerous to safety because they would prop up reactors that in some cases are now 50 plus years old. And, for example, energy at Palisades Michigan has said they will close that 50 plus year old reactor by May 31 of this year. I don't think they're lying this time because whole talk is so eager to take over the site for decommissioning whole talk currently anyway is not operating reactors, although they do have a small modular nuclear reactor division. They would like to build new reactors and operate them perhaps they have pulled a bait and switch at oyster Creek New Jersey where they're supposed to be dismantling a retired atomic reactor. Floated the trial balloon of hey what if we build a small modular reactor here. So again whole tech cannot be trusted at all. But anyway, I fear that with that much money being thrown around a lot of reactors that would otherwise shut, perhaps even including palisades that is on the brink of closure might be resurrected like zombies and keep going which is so very dangerous, they are at the breaking point in terms of many of their system structures and components that could lead to a meltdown. Okay. Well on the note on that note. Let's end, if you if you agree with the treaty for the prohibition of nuclear weapons. And bring us up to date on that. Please. Well, January 22 of 2022 will mark the first anniversary of the entry into force of the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons. A year ago, the 50th country in the world ratified the treaty, making it binding international law, at least on those who have signed and ratified it, which is a very large number of countries at this point, but does not include any of the nuclear weapons powers. Or as I mentioned earlier NATO, any of the countries that enjoy so called nuclear umbrella protection. So we still have a long way to go, but this treaty is so inspirational and so hopeful. Well, folks are recognizing this anniversary with banner hangs and vigils and film showings to try to raise awareness that nuclear weapons are illegal internationally, making the United States a rogue country at this point. Okay, on that note. I mean, making the United States a rogue country. That's very heavy. Well don't take it from me take it from Henry Kissinger, who I don't often quote, or agree with on many things but he said more than a decade ago. The United States has few existential threats. And one of them, the lead one is nuclear weapons held by our enemies and our adversaries, which would include terrorists at this point. And so joining with other former secretaries of state and secretaries of defense, Henry Kissinger who built his entire political career on nuclear brinkmanship said we need to abolish nuclear weapons echoing President Kennedy, who said we need to abolish nuclear weapons before they So don't take it from me take it from Henry Kissinger. It's about time that the United States do what's right and wise in its own self interest. Thank you Kevin camps, again, for your, your, your wonderful eye opening elucidation of what is going on in this time. And thank you for all of the work that you do. And please come back and join us again and, and, and bring me some ideas for programs as we go forward into 2022, and best to all of your colleagues there including not a beyond nuclear person I don't believe for say but Alfred Meyer. Who you have heard on this program with and we hope that he will return to us. Also, yeah, physician for social responsibility. Yes. Thank you so much Kevin camps till next time. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you.