 Today we have Professor Lü Guo-she, he's a research fellow at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. And he'll be talking to us about combating the three evils and China's counter-terrorism policies, with a particular focus on the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Our discussion for this particular session is Associate Professor Matthew Sussex. So we met Matthew a bit earlier. Matthew's research is largely in Russian foreign policy, Russian politics, but he has also done some work and research on the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. So he's really ready to get going with his discussant comments. And this is a session that will have a translation. Dr. Lü will be speaking in Mandarin and Henry, the translator, will be translating for us. So when it comes to your questions, I'd probably ask that you've really thought about your question, so we can keep it nice and tight because the translation process will tend to delay the progress of the session. So without further ado, I'll turn over to Dr. Lü. Hello, thank you very much for the invitation that Mr. Maikai gave me. Thank you very much. I work in the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. I've been studying international politics and international relations for the past few years. I'm a researcher on the Asian Pacific Cooperation. This is the first time I've come to Australia and the first time I've come to the A&U. It's my first time to come to Southern Hemisphere. I found Australia is very different from China. For example, the weather, seasons, and the traffic rules are very different. So I'm afraid that my logic might be a little bit different from everybody here. Luckily, we are all scholars, so we can talk and discuss. Today, the topic I want to present is the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and Counterterrorism in China. Let me introduce the Shanghai Cooperation Organization a little bit. The Shanghai Cooperation Organization was founded by six countries, China, Russia, and Tajikistan. It was found in the 201 in Shanghai. In 2015, India and Pakistan also joined this group. So far, it has got four members, four observers, and six partners. Four observers and six dialogue partners. We can see that the SCO is the further department of Shanghai Five. This organization is the regional organization. Now, it is just 16 years old, and it has been growing very fast since it was founded. Terrorism has presented a threat to this country. The member states are working together to counter terrorism. Now, I want to talk a little bit about the historical background of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Before it was officially founded, these countries have worked together for five years already. We call them Shanghai Five, and at that time, they have solved three problems, three issues. How to solve the three threats in the region? Terrorism and separatism and religions are extremely important. During those five years, they also do some communication among the members, and they exchange some views. At that time, the Cold War just finished. At that time, we need to enhance political mutual trust among the countries. During those five years, the five countries work together, and then we reach an agreement. During this period of time, we have enhanced our mutual trust. It includes two things. The first thing is to reduce the size of the armed forces. Another thing is to do the border demarcation. This is the foundation for the growth of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. All of these countries have security issues. We have the same political goals. Because the Cold War just ended, and the Soviet Union collapsed, and many countries in this region get independent. At that time, there is an ideology of vacuum in that region. Three threats arise in the Middle East. Many attacks happen in this region. The Cold War has finished, but the thing is the Cold War is still existing. Western countries try to export democracy to the region. The NATO also tries to expand its territory to the eastern part of Europe. Color revolution happens frequently in the region. Because of these three threats, it is getting more and more active. It spreads from Afghanistan to Central Asia. Many countries in this region realize it was impossible to solve the problem alone. So they need to work together to cooperate. This country had a problem with economic growth and social changes. After the end of the Cold War, regional cooperation has become a trend. Most member countries are developing countries. They are lagging behind in technology infrastructure and social systems. At the same time, this country also had some difficulties in transforming their planned economy into market economy. In the age of globalization, this problem becomes very urgent. If they didn't fix the problem, they were completely far behind the rest of the world. So maintaining security and pursuing development have become a common goal among Central Asian countries. The birth of the SCO also offers a new perspective on international relationships after the end of the Cold War. We know all the Central Asian countries are all joined together. All of them are victims of the Cold War. During the Cold War, they did not make too much progress in the development of politics and economy. But what is the next step after the Cold War? They have to think about this issue. It was obvious that they didn't want to return to the Cold War. So what should they do? They had to cooperate. Because of this, they have some high-five mechanisms. China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, Pakistan, and the rest of the world. Five years later, another country, Uzbekistan, also joined the group. We established Shanghai Cooperation Organization. We signed the declaration of Shanghai Cooperation Organization. After that, the SCO grew very fast. Now the member states have increased. Now we have eight member states. Now I want to talk a little bit about why China joined this group. Everybody knows that after SCO was founded, China has been very active in the group. Chinese government also make a great contribution in finance, resources, and manpower. The summits of Shanghai Five were hosted in China. And the first meeting of the SCO was also held in China. So this group is called the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Its headquarters is located in Beijing. The first secretary general is deputy foreign minister of China. Why did China put so much effort for this group? Because we have three considerations. From the perspective of domestic policy, after the Cold War ended, terrorism presented a big threat to the western part of China. When Shanghai Five was established, China has launched its open-door policy for 20 years. China also faced some problems like regional imbalance in economic growth. Since the beginning of the 1990s, the Chinese government has been trying to transfer some of its energy to the western part of China. Because of the terrorism in western China, many private companies were reluctant to invest in western China. But because western China is very close to Central Asia, terrorism spread in those regions. In order to deter terrorism in Xinjiang, we had to work closely with Central Asia. The second consideration is from the geopolitical perspective. Since the Chinese economic reform, the ultimate goal of Chinese foreign policy is to create a very friendly environment for the modernization of China. But China has some problems in the eastern part. The relationship between Japan and China doesn't look good. And the Taiwan issue and China's disputes are all problematic. Beijing has to make sure that the situation in eastern China will not get worse when it is trying to maintain social order in the northwest China. So this is an opportunity for China to work with Central Asian countries. Another consideration is from the perspective of regional economic growth and global economic growth. After the Cold War, the European Union was created. At that time, in the Asian region, Asia Pacific and APEC also founded. Europe was doing very well and Asia Pacific is also considered a new engine for global economic growth. China is geographically advantage in connecting to economic zone. The people called Central Asia is a decking region. Because of Central Asia, the global economy is very difficult to grow. For the sake of Chinese economic growth and for the sake of the future of global economy, China has decided to cooperate with countries in Central Asia. I also talked a little bit about the organizational structure and cooperation field. It has become a good model of international organization. Many research institute has been studying this organization. The SEO has been growing very fast. Since it was born, this can be proved from three perspectives. The organizational structure and cooperation project and its international influence. Its structure has become more and more complex and complete. It has the Council of Head of State, the Council of Head of Government and the Council of Foreign Minister. Besides, SEO also created a framework to promote non-governmental cooperation such as the SEO business council, SEO inter-bank consortium, SEO forum. It also made a great contribution in counter-terrorism. SEO member countries also keep increasing their cooperation projects. Security issues and cooperation in security issues are the most important thing. Security issues and cooperation in security issues are the most important thing in security issues. The way we cooperate is very comprehensive. We have used traditional methods and non-traditional methods. The greatest achievement we have got is cooperation in economy. When SEO was founded, the trade volume between China and Central Asia was $12 billion. In 2015, it was $130 billion. Also, we have done something. We have cooperated in education. Originally, Russian President proposed that we should establish university for this group. But in the end, we decided to choose university for the cooperation project. We have joined this cooperation project in 62 universities in the region. We established a training center in Shanghai University of Political Science and Law. The foundation of this cooperation project is political cooperation. We have to enhance our cooperation in politics. SEO has become more and more influential in international society. The number of member states continues to increase. Before I visited Australia, I was very lucky to meet the Secretary General of SEO. We also have Ukraine, Egypt, Ukraine, and even the United States. In addition to our cooperation, we have also established a stable cooperation with the United States. Why SEO is growing so fast? Because all these countries have the same philosophy and the same need for international cooperation. This is because the three threats, especially terrorism, have a big threat to the region. We have to work together to take joint action to deter terrorism. SEO has created a better cooperation model and principle. We have the philosophy of SEO in Shanghai spirit. This is based on the principles of mutual trust, mutual benefit, equal rights, mutual action, mutual respect, and joint development. We call this principle the Shanghai spirit. The way we cooperate is a little bit unique. I am a specialist on the Asia Pacific cooperation. I have been looking at how people cooperate for decades. In the Asia Pacific region, many international organizations start from economic cooperation to political conversation. It is very difficult to continue. Shanghai cooperation is a safe cooperation. When countries began to cooperate, they usually started with cooperation in economy. But SEO is different. We start from security issues. Nowadays, when countries cooperate, they can start from the economy. But when they talk about politics or security, they stop to cooperate. But the starting point of SEO is security issues. Now I want to talk about the major issues that SEO needs to tackle at the moment. It is facing some problems now. The first one is you need to improve your own ability. This is because of the pattern of terrorism. Because the e-commerce and internet banking also spread to every part of the world. So SEO can be limited. At the same time, it needs to deal with other international organizations. SEO needs to cooperate with other international organizations. Because SEO cannot deal with some problems alone. Also, SEO needs to deal with other powers. We all know there are some conflicts in Central Asia, like in religion politics. This threat is very good at taking advantage of conflicts. But the thing is, some major powers have different views on terrorism, how to define terrorism. We all know that in Syria, Afghanistan and other countries like Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran, we all know this. We can see that the United States, Russia and some major powers play a different role in Syria and Afghanistan. How to define terrorism accurately? We still have a long way to go to reach the agreement with other major powers. Before I came to Australia, the British Home Office has this Turkish Islamic party as an Islamic terrorist group. This is a good thing. Now I want to talk a little bit about China's counter-terrorism major under the framework of SEO. Now we work closely with the SEO member and we take joint action to deter terrorism. Since the birth of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, China and the SEO countries have launched joint exercises 13 times. But seven of them were hosted in China. And Chinese government always give full support in manpower, finance, resources and logistics. We have a partnership with SEO countries in various fields. So we try to strengthen the SEO counter-terrorism ability. Now we build a new intelligence system to fight terrorism. We want to make sure that home land is safe and secure. We have all the level of government that we have some counter-terrorism office. We have some special forces to deal with terrorism. We also continue a mass live campaign. We include all the members in the society into this system. We also start the radicalization program in Xinjiang. We also put a lot of efforts in local education of Xinjiang. But the thing is we found that people in Xinjiang did not know their own history very well. Everybody knows that we are doing the bell and the rock initiative. Now we also combine anti-corruption with counter-terrorism. Now we try to trace the corruption problem. Now the measures that we take to fight terrorism is we combine the urgent measures and the ongoing measures. We also combine the politics and economy and domestic policies and international cooperation. This is my conclusion. Thank you. Thank you for a very interesting paper. I now invite Matthew to come up and give his response. Thanks very much. I would like to particularly thank Dr Wu for his excellent perspective on the evolution of the SCO and the challenges it faces. I should note at the outset that I'm somewhat at a disadvantage in that I'm having to rely a little bit from Dr Wu's translated paper from Google Translate. So I hope our Chinese guests and anyone in the room who has much better language skills than I do will forgive me any egregious misinterpretations that I might make. I think Dr Wu's paper is quite commendable for a number of reasons. Chief of which is his focus on the interplay between domestic factors, geopolitical factors and the economic drivers behind the SCO's evolution. Second, I think he's correct to identify the need for coordinated and flexible responses by defence personnel across nations. And this came out in the written version of his paper, as well as the use of social inclusion programs to try and prevent radicalization and also working with regional bodies on cooperation. And I think this is consistent with China's approach to the three evils and also consistent broadly with many SCO members' interests. But I do think one thing we need to consider is whether the motives and the rationales of different members within the SCO can always be viewed as mutually reinforcing. And I think that because interests in respect to counterterrorism are quite vulnerable to being subsumed by perhaps broader strategic considerations, there is still the possibility for misunderstanding and even security competition to emerge in the SCO space, both as it is now and especially when it expands in 2017 to encompass India and Pakistan as well. So in my remarks, I'd like to adopt a kind of broader geostrategic approach or lens to consider the question, is the SCO the right or useful organisation to manage counterterrorism planning and responses in Central Asia and increasingly in South Asia as well? Now, I noted in an earlier session that dealing with the types of security dilemmas that China has to face now was a kind of inevitable product of its upward trajectory. And I think that logic does hold in a kind of general sense. But that said, it doesn't say very much about the prospects for great power competition, the potential for spoiler roles by South Asian states who have completely different perspectives on what constitutes a terrorist or a freedom fighter, and what good management of these types of challenges might actually look like, not just by China, but by other member states of the SCO as well. Now, I don't think it's possible to answer a question about whether the SCO is the right organisation without first asking really, what is the SCO? And I think in the West we often have a kind of cartoonish view of the SCO, much of the literature on the topic, at least in the early years, hasn't been very, very helpful. Now, let me give you some examples of this. One view, and I should hasten to say that this is not a view I endorse, but one view is that the SCO has been a club for dictators. And under this formulation, it's effectively a way for Central Asian despots to gain strategic confidence in their position between Russia and China, and at the same time, some kind of personal confidence that they will receive insurance against rose, tulip, orange, other colour revolutions. That view, I think, is wrong because it puts Central Asia more or less in the driver's seat within the SCO. And there are much more pragmatic reasons for cooperation and mutual benefit that do go well beyond political orientation. So a second view at the other end of the spectrum is that the SCO is a vehicle for Sino-Russian cooperation, bilateral cooperation, under the guise of minilateralism. And although I think this had some truth to it initially, given that the core reason that brought the Shanghai Five together was indeed a security problem, a resolution of border disputes, I don't think we can say this logic holds much longer in a much more expanded, much more diverse SCO. A third view is that the SCO is China's laboratory. In other words, it's a place for China to test out various ways to manage regional order in its own backyard. Again, I think this view gives a bit too much significance to just one actor within the SCO, and it doesn't really reflect the range of activities that it's become engaged in. So in addition to pointing to the need for more nuanced Western scholarship on the SCO, I think there's a more general need for assessments of what types of cooperation the SCO might be suited to. And here I think counterterrorism is perhaps a useful case study. Now, in my own previous work on the SCO, I've looked at it as a type of regime. You might think that odd, not so much because regimes produce notionally nested institutions that reinforce cooperation, but more because regime theory is more usually applied to Western liberal democracies, seem to be an easier fit. But I have argued that the SCO does bear the hallmarks of a sort of nascent security regime, one that if the current trajectory continues may well potentially be a kind of hegemonic regime that China may wish to activate in the future. But of course that isn't the case yet. Most of you will know that there was a tussle, a difference of opinion between Moscow and Beijing on precisely what the SCO should be. Moscow wanted it as an Asian NATO, as a military security organization. China wanted it as an energy trading club. And I think in the last four years or so it's been fairly clear that Chinese preferences have won out in terms of framing what the SCO is. And here also I'd echo Andrew Small's analysis that Beijing has been concerned primarily with energy deals across the SCO membership region and trade routes second. But in terms of counter-terrorism cooperation, I think there has been slow but incremental evolution. The regional anti-terrorism structure or rats within the SCO initially seemed not so much concerned about managing terrorism, but to do with the more fundamental question of can Russia and China work together in a military sense in terms of mutual exercises. But that is changing. It's changing and it's also becoming more urgent particularly because of China's AFPAC dilemma, which we've talked about previously at this conference, as well as the policy posture of its new members. I think it is safe to say that on China's northern flank it's more or less allowed Russia to take the leading role on counter-terrorism through the auspices of the CSTO, the collective security treaty organization. And the reason for that is a coincidence of interest. On the one hand, Moscow's desire to ensure that it has a stable geopolitical buffer zone. And on the other hand, China's willingness to shift the security burden onto Moscow while engaging at the same time in trade and investment opportunities within the Central Asian region. But I think partly because of the success and the growth of activities within the SCO, you do have to wonder whether economic factors might begin to start driving broader insecurities, particularly on the Russian side. If they do, then counter-terrorism cooperation within the SCO actually becomes much more important. And that's particularly the case because the CSTO, over on the Russian side, has proven itself too slow, too poorly funded, and really too divided to perform those types of tasks really effectively. So, is the SCO an appropriate organization to coordinate counter-terrorism efforts? My answer is maybe. I've said absolutely nothing about the United States. I've said very little, or actually no, I've said absolutely nothing. I was going to say something, but I've said absolutely nothing about the European Union. But I think those, as well as Indian and Pakistani membership, will constitute a number of pull factors that will start to impel China to look at regional organizations like the SCO to advance and safeguard their interests in the field of particularly counter-terrorism. And the reason for that is because the optics of multilateralism are preferable, and multilateralism can be less costly than bilateralism. At the same time, of course, China's desire to become very deeply embedded in terms of trade routes, but also energy through one belt, one road will deliver the kind of push factors. But of course, China will need to be wary of institutional dilution that may well occur from having new members come into the same organization. So, let me end then these observations, random as they are, with the kind of third question. And that is, is the SCO ready to take a leading role on counter-terrorism in a broader regional sense? In other words, I hope this might engage our Chinese guests into the discussion. I'd ask, is China happy with the SCO? And what does it see as its future priority tasks to perform some of the roles that it needs to in future? Thank you very much. Okay, so thank you for that response, Matthew. During Dr. Lu's talk, I thought we'd come back to that problem again about definitions. So I was thinking of your paper, Sean, and the problem with definitions related to terrorism and different ideas about constitutes terrorism. So that was interesting. And I think you end with a very good question, too, to get our discussion happening. So I open the floor to questions. Thank you, Greg Jarosz, National Security College. Doctor, if the SCO model was successful in enhancing conventional and unconventional security with neighboring states, has this had the effect of reducing, increasing, or making no difference to terrorism? Thank you very much, Matthew. I'll answer your question. The next step for the SCO, I mean, the SCO is facing many problems. We have some problems like self-improvement and the relationship with other international organizations and countries. In our process of counterterrorism, we have some problems with the relationship with other countries. When we are doing our project, one bell and one roll, we can't compete with national security. Some major powers say that China is doing a lot of things. China is doing a Chinese version of martial plan. When we are doing one bell project, this is part of our comprehensive counterterrorism project. But in this process, we can see that we have been facing some problems and challenges like self-improvement. So our comprehensive counterterrorism project will definitely have an impact. Yes, these challenges will certainly affect our comprehensive counterterrorism project. One roll, one bell, including two directions. We can see that some problems have happened in Afghanistan and Syria. The civil wars are a big issue there. We also see that the South China Sea disputes. So NATO and some Southeast Asia countries are very wary of our counterterrorism project. So it's too early to judge success? This is a long-term process. But we have the determination to make it successful. If we don't make it successful, our country will be like a national joke. This is no process. Dr. Wu, I have an answer to your question. I have many opinions that I agree with. You just asked whether or not the SCO is the president of the United States. Yes, I can't deny it because those countries just transformed themselves from a dictatorship country. If you look at the relationship between the Central Asian countries, I have no opinion. There is no way. We are determined by the history. Because this is part of the history. If we don't make it successful, our country will be like a dictatorship country. If we don't make it successful, our country will be like a dictatorship country. Just like the Western-style democracy, we cannot practice the Western democracy in China. I think everybody in this region likes freedom and democracy. You also mentioned that the reason China helped establish SCO is because we see that Central Asia is the backyard of China. This is your question. Yes, we want to secure that region. Not only the Central Asian region, in other places, we also want to create a safe environment. We want to build a model for the Central Asian countries. We want to use Central Asia as a model to let the people in our region see. I agree with you. Yesterday, Mr. Mei said that the National Security Council has made a clear decision. Three points. Do you think the definition of terrorism is different from the foreign policy? No, it's not. It's not exactly the same. But it's the same. Yesterday, we discussed the definition of terrorism. Regarding the definition of terrorism, do you think our definition is different? You mentioned that the definition of terrorism is different from the foreign policy. Yes, the definition of terrorism was mentioned yesterday. Regarding the definition of terrorism, do you have this question? I was making a comment that there has already been a discussion about that there is no single definition. I think in terms of the international community, we need to move towards getting a single definition. That was something that Sean had raised in his paper. It's been a current... Regarding the definition of terrorism, there hasn't been a single definition. It's clear that we have seen this story. Yes, that's right. I have another question. You said that Russia and China are participating in the Shanghai cooperation. You just said that Russia is going to turn it into a NATO, right? Yes. After that, China is going to strengthen energy. I'm not very good at this point. You said that maybe Russia wants to use the SCO as an Asian NATO. But China wants to use the Central Asia as a resource. Because when we were in the Shanghai nuclear war, we were discussing this issue. I can't agree with you because both Russia and Central Asia and China, all of us don't like the Cold War material. We are doing our best to avoid Cold War revival. If Russia wants to turn the Shanghai nuclear war into a NATO, it will go back to the Cold War. If SCO becomes an Asian version of NATO, then we have to go back to the Cold War. China has to consider whether there is energy. There is energy, but only one aspect. Regarding natural resources, that is one of our considerations. Our consideration is very comprehensive, including a resource environment and resources just one of them. If we don't cooperate in the energy and natural resources, then the situation of Russia would be much worse. Thank you for the presentations. I have very simple three questions. Number one, do you have to write it down? This SCO, you said, is some regional security organizations. Are you fighting or targeting all the Uyghurs in Xinjiang or in Central Asia? Or are the organizations also dealing with other Central Asian militant groups? If you do, can you provide an example? That's the first question. Are you fighting or targeting Uyghurs or Uyghur militants in Xinjiang or in Central Asia? Or are they dealing with other Central Asian militant groups in Central Asia? Regarding the SCO's anti-terrorism work, is it still a part of the Central Asian militant group or Xinjiang militant group? Yes, including the Central Asian militant group in Xinjiang. I also ask if you do, can you provide any examples? Can you provide an example? We are dealing with the strength of the attack on terrorism in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. It provides a framework, but the specific measures are still within our country. If we design cross-strait, we provide information, information and information about the anti-terrorism. The SCO provides a framework to deter terrorism. We have some joint exercises against terrorism. But the thing is, regarding the terrorists in other countries, they have to deal with terrorism. So you don't actually have any examples to provide? You actually did prevent the other militant groups in Central Asia? We just... You said that you don't have any specific examples. The specific examples? Because the SCO doesn't have any specific examples. The SCO doesn't have any specific examples. As a scholar, I can't give you some examples. Adam, we're going to have to move on, I think, because we've got another question. Because we've only got two minutes left, so I just want to allow for the other... Let me ask the last one. Okay. Make it quick. He said the religion in East Turkestan or in Xinjiang is different, and you didn't translate. So I asked him, what has it made different... There are some different sections of Islam in East Turkestan, because CCP trained a new generation of religious leaders in Iran and came back, and they have two different views of Islam in East Turkestan, or it's different to the rest of the Islamic world? That means the link between Islam and religions, is the link between religion and sect, is the difference between religion and religion. Did you mention it when I was talking about the lecture just now? I know, I remember. This is the problem. As a scholar, we are from the history of the development of the Islamic religion. Sometimes, because we don't study the history of the Islamic religion, the idea of the Islamic religion has been developed. So we have to tell the people of Xinjiang that we can't just tell them. We have to study the history of the Islamic religion. How did the Islamic religion come about? Maybe we can continue that discussion in the break. I'm mindful that there's one question, and then we will have to wrap this up. Yeah, I'd just like to move back to the counter-terrorism question and the SCA. I am aware of some modest improvement in counter-terrorism liaison within the SCA, so I congratulate the SCA on that within the member states. Just one question I do have in the majority of the world. It's normally law enforcement or police that lead counter-terrorism. I was just wondering with the SCA, what role or what cooperation do police take within the member states? The role of what? The role of police within the SCA and regards to counter-terrorism. Well, first I should ask, is there a role? Or is it military-driven? And if police do have a role, what is that role? What role does the SCA take within the member states? Or is it military-driven? On both sides. As I just mentioned, since the establishment of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, there have been 13 major military exercises. One of them is military-driven, and the other is public security-driven. How many times? 11 times. Since the birth of SCO, we had certain joint actions to joint exercise. And 11, two of them were actually conducted by police force. The SCO was conducted by two years. So the SCO was conducted by four years. Two years? Two years. The SCO was conducted by four years. The SCO was conducted by two years. Every four years, the police force in China, they would participate in joint exercise every four years. And regarding the army, every two years. So the SCO is conducted by two times. So the police force has participated in joint exercise twice. The target of the SCO was the same. But the method and the foundation were different. The SCO came from the people. It was more like a group. The two exercises were different. The target was the same but the method was different. So we started five minutes early. We're ending five minutes late. Thank you very much, Dr. Lu, for your talk. Also thank you to Matthew for your very good discussion paper, so thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.