 Daily Tech News show is made possible by its listeners, thanks to all of you including Miranda Janell, Justin Zellers, and Pepper Geesey. Coming up on DTNS, how do you pick a VPN? Allison Sheridan helps not just by telling us which one she picked, but the process for narrowing it down. Plus, Gucci comes to Roblox and Microsoft's console free plan. This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, May 27th, 2022 in Los Angeles, I'm Tom Merritt. Coming from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. And I'm Allison Sheridan from the Podfeat Podcast. Drawing the top tech stories from Cleveland, I'm Len Peralta. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Zhang. Let's get right into some tech things you should know. Lot of headlines out there announcing that Google Drive finally got copy and paste keyboard shortcuts, which is true, but you might say, didn't Google Docs and Sheets have copy and paste for a long time? Yes, they did. It would be odd if they didn't, but Google Drive's file browser hasn't had it until now. So to move files, you have had to drag and drop in the past, but no longer. Now you can control C or command C, depending on your operating system on a file name, move to another folder, control V or command V, and the file will then move. Google also added the ability to select multiple unconnected blocks of text, helpful for things like bolding headings. I Windows C and V because I use a Windows keyboard on a Mac. You also may have seen a headline saying that Twitter did not reelect Silver Lakes Egon Durbin to its board, but also did not let him resign, which admittedly sounds confusing. Essentially, what happened is the Twitter board felt like Durbin was on too many boards. He did not want to resign from any other boards, so they didn't reelect him. Then he offered to resign from Twitter and they said, no. Just quit somebody else. And so I guess he agreed to like, okay, fine. So I don't know what would happen if he had refused. But Durbin has agreed to resign from two other company's boards over the next year. The Brookings Institution and Alliance for Securing Democracy issued a report showing that Chinese state nudes agencies are very good at SEO. In fact, at least one Chinese state news article appeared at the top 10 searches for Zeng Zhang around 88 percent of the time on Google and Bing and 98 percent of the time on YouTube. They're even better when it comes to news focused sections. Chinese state media accounted for 22 percent of observed pages in Google News and Bing News related to Zeng Zhang and coronavirus origins versus 6 percent on Web Search. I wonder if we could hire them to help us with our SEO. Yeah, would that be nice? That's crazy. The Wall Street Journal notes that India is the leading world country in digital payments in 2021. Forty eight point six billion digital payments were made in India. Double that of number two, China. China has the second most digital payments made in that year. Mobile payments in India passed ATM withdrawals back in 2020 and hit a value of one trillion dollars in 2021. However, digital payment providers in India are still struggling to show a profit as the amount of the payments remains low. In somewhat related news, Reuters sources say that Google is in talks to join India's open e-commerce ONDC project, the ONDC project shares listings between platforms. Paytm is already a part of ONDC. The idea is to make it easy for merchants to sell online across platforms. You just list in ONDC and then you can sell on a bunch of them. So it's forty eight point six billion digital payments, but each one is only three rupees a piece. Yeah, I think the average is like $80 per person per year. Well, in total digital payments. Wow. Tether is most famous as operating the stable coin at USDT, which is pegged to the US dollar, but it also has EURT, which is pegged to the euro and CNHD, which is pegged to the Chinese one. Now it has a fourth as it launches MXNT, pegged to the peso. Tether backs its coin with a mix of actual cash and easily liquidated securities. However, it has been criticized for not being as transparent with those holdings as other stable coins have been. All right, I do want to pronounce it Yurt, the EURT. Yurt, let's talk a little bit about what Microsoft's up to. They confirmed a thing, but then said, please forget about it. But Allison, can you explain? Well, Microsoft spokesperson confirmed to Windows Central that it has been working on a lower cost gaming streaming device, codamed Keystone. This one is sometimes described as a streaming stick, but seems a little more like a Roku box. Basically, a device meant to stream games from Xbox Game Pass and Xbox Cloud, except now we don't actually know what it's ever going to end up being. Microsoft told Windows Central we've been working on a game streaming device codenamed Keystone that could be connected to any TV or monitor without the need for a console. We've made the decision to pivot away from the current iteration of the Keystone device. We will take our learnings and refocus our new efforts on a new approach that will allow us to deliver Xbox Cloud gaming to what to more players around the world in the future. Now, I had to phone a friend to ask what this might mean. I, of course, contacted Chris Ashley and he said the way he sees it, there's only two directions, hardware or software. So if they're pivoting, it sounds like they would rather go software, which does have higher margins, but more headaches based on the number of devices supported, kind of like the way you can play Fortnite on an iPhone. That's what he thinks they're going to do. Now, there was a lot of discussion about what the operating system of this the Keystone device would be. Would it be Android so that it would be easy to bring other apps like streaming services like Netflix on to it? Or would it be Windows, which you can still bring streaming apps on to because people make them for Windows, but not in as great a numbers. And yeah, maybe what what they decided was, well, if we're going to have to bring an app in any case, maybe we just don't make the hardware. Roger, you were telling me earlier, you kind of think that's where they're going. It would most likely I see it as being an app, mainly because if you didn't make a device and everything you alluded to, well, now you have another thing hanging off an HDMI port. People I'm I think people have gotten very comfortable with the idea that whatever they plug into it, whether it's a Roku or Chromecast device or whatever, you can send multiple types of content to it. You're not just locked into I can only play games. I can only watch movies. You know, my shield made my individual shields. Great. It supports, you know, literally all the apps, including Apple TV. And so I can watch everything, but I can also Chromecast devices. I can play games on it. Supports Nvidia GeForce. Now, Stadia, unfortunately, you know, the the X cloud game Xbox services still sort of side load and cross your fingers if it works, but it just makes more sense. Plus, you don't need to you don't really need to tech support all that much hardware or invest in making sure that you have some way to manufacture and then ship all those just download it. I mean, it's streaming. It would be a little bit easier than than dealing with a bunch of configuration or or DMA issues if you actually had to write a game for the specific platform. Yeah, I feel like what Microsoft may have been thinking, I don't know what they were thinking, but what they may have been thinking was, well, we want to get people used to the idea that you don't have to buy a PC or even an Xbox to game on Xbox. You can use our cloud services. So let's have a device that will be the showcase for that. That's what they do with the surface line of laptops and tablets. Right. Is it's a showcase that says, yeah, there's lots of others out there. But let's show you what it looks like. And I think what they may have learned in the development of this is that people don't need to be taught. People have smart TVs like Roger was saying, they have Roku's. They have Nvidia Shields. What you want to do is what Netflix did, which, yeah, they started by actually partnering with Roku on the Netflix player. If you remember, the very first Roku was called the Roku Netflix player. But what they ended up doing was just being everywhere, having an app for everything. And I think Microsoft is really realizing they don't need to partner on a game streaming player. There's plenty of players out there. You just need to have a controller available for it, which is already possible on most of these boxes and then just make the app. Yeah. And, you know, both of those controllers are Bluetooth enabled. And what is the Xbox one controller? It's Bluetooth. So, I mean, it's they'll win on both hands. Plus, I mark my words, there's going to be an Xbox Live button or X, X cloud gaming button on the remote on some of these devices in the future in the same way you find Netflix buttons. I hope the buttons thing goes away. I don't need to be looking at that that expired, you know, Fandango now button anymore, you know, you know, talk to the BlackBerry people about physical. Why are there a BlackBerry button on my Roku? So harsh. Well, Telegram has a slogan that you see in multiple places if you're paying attention, including when you first download the app and you launch it, that says Telegram is free for ever. No ads, no subscription fees. Android police notes that Telegram made no secret that it's been working on a premium version of the service. Betas have been indicated that it would include in things like reactions and stickers, modern stuff, and a badge to note you as a premium user. But most recently, Alessandro Pellusi on Twitter found data strings that reveal a new page that reads, quote, Telegram provides free unlimited cloud storage for chats and media and, quote, the word forever conspicuously missing. Hmm. Telegram hasn't added that page to the live app, nor has it officially announced details about a premium service, including how much it might cost. But one might wonder what has changed? Allison, as a Telegram user and dare we say an advocate of Telegram, how does this sit with you? Does it worry you? What do you think? Well, I think you could call me known Telegram apologist as well. It's pretty funny. People love to attack me for my love of Telegram, but it strikes me that people kind of like to attack either side. If something is free, they assume that everything is nefarious about it, right? They've got to be making money somewhere. They must be stealing your data. They must be doing all these awful things. And then if they try to charge for a service, then they say, oh, but they said it was going to be free. Why are they charging for it? I kind of like a company that has a freemium plan where you can get a lot of free stuff. But if you want the extra stuff, you pay more. If it's just free, you always kind of feel queasy. Like, why is it just free? So I think if they find a way to charge for some kinds of services, there will, of course, be a giant uproar if they take away stuff that was free and then make that paid for. And I'll probably be really mad if they wreck it because I've convinced so many of my friends and family to use Telegram to talk to me real quick. Why do people make fun of you for using Telegram? I mean, I feel like because it's not signal. Allison, don't you know, it's more secure as signal, which is true. That's what I mean. But it's still very secure. It's just, you know, right. But it's also really easy to use. It's really the you never get a blue bubble, green bubble problem. Now it's threads never splinter. They're always synced across all my devices. And that is the primary thing I want in a way to communicate with people. So that's why I love Telegram. And I know it's not as secure as signal, but it is really secure. So I yeah, I would say to people out there, if if you're one of the crowd who loves the Sheldon Freud of catching some hypocrisy. This is a great story. They said forever and now they're charging. And you can have arguments with people about like, well, it's still going to be free. And as long as the freeze tier stays forever, does it matter if there's a premium tier and the premium tears only for stickers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, in the end, none of that matters. Right with there with Don't Be Evil, saying free forever can go down in the annals of history of like, should they have said that? I don't know. In the end, if Telegram keeps the free tier as functional as it is now, that's all that matters. And so far, it looks like they will. So that's kind of where I sit with it. And the fact that they said free forever, I don't know. I don't plan to sue them. Maybe somebody will. Good luck to them. I can see where, if you were all in on Telegram, you'd be like, well, hold on a second. Now you're pulling back some of this free forever stuff that I was promised at the beginning. This is perfect, of course, to be honest. But I mean, they're not pulling back the free part. They're just adding some stuff that wasn't there for free. So that might not actually be free going forward. And I don't know. I mean, I find no reason to be outraged about this. I also don't use Telegram on a daily basis. They're not working hard enough, Sarah. There's a reason. Yeah, I know. I think the lesson is never put forever on anything. If you care enough, you're going to be mad about pretty much everything. I believe in you. I bet you can find a reason. All right, I'll try harder. Yeah, me too. I'm not outraged by this either. But then, hey, I wasn't outraged by DuckDuckGo either. And apparently I'm a horrible person. So, hey, if you want to tell me that or something else, you might want to know my email address. Tell us about your outrage. Yes. Or lack of. Either way, we want to hear it all. Please email us feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. VPN stands for Virtual Private Network. It's not about security so much. Security usually refers to encrypting your data. So even if someone sees it, they can't read it. VPN isn't meant for that. VPN is about privacy. It creates a tunnel that hides the things you're trying to access, like your domain names and where you're coming from, like your IP address. If you're on open Wi-Fi at a hotel, an airport, or a coffee shop, it's useful. It can keep others who are on that same Wi-Fi from seeing what sites you visit. Some people run their own VPN for exceptional privacy because then they're in control of all the ends. Darren Kitchen of Hack 5 told me today, why pay anyone for the privilege of sniffing your bits? To which I made a remark about Vegas. But he's got a freely available script that can set up a VPN on your own machine in two minutes. I'll have a link to that in the show notes, as well as his YouTube video on how to set it up. But not everybody's going to want to do that. Most people don't. So there are lots of reputable services you can pay to provide it. This will, of course, mean that the company you're paying can see all the sites you visit. But if you trust them in the reputable, that's great. But you need to trust the company. And how do you figure out which ones to trust and which ones are shysters? Well, there are several independent and reliable organizations vetting VPNs. Privacy tools is one just off the top of my head that I realized it does a good job. But Consumer Reports also a very reputable organization and did an exhaustive study of hundreds of VPN providers narrowing it down to 16 that they intensely evaluated and then put out a recommendation for four VPNs that met their security and privacy criteria. And that criteria was pretty comprehensive. It included things like good encryption, end-to-end encryption, vulnerability disclosure, data management policies, privacy policies, transparency reports, ownership, logging, complaints, all of those kinds of categories. Allison went the extra mile and not only read this report but purchased all four of the top contenders from the Consumer Reports study and then did her own work to narrow it down to one that she would decide to keep. Allison, so what led you to this point? I love that you went the extra mile on this. Yeah, I've managed to write a 6,000-word essay on the topic to cover the 48 pages of the Consumer Reports article. But I started with, I've been using a service called Encrypt Me for a long time and it was bought by Zip Davis recently and then it's been kind of deprecated. It's end of life, it still exists, it's still running but they're not doing any support and they're not doing any kind of enhancements. And as Dan Moran once said, I like to quit software before it quits me. So I wanted to get a new VPN but it seems that most people make the decision based on one of two things. Either they go, they choose one based on what their top favorite tech podcaster is currently advertising, which may or may not be a good tool. It might just be the tool that offered them money to advertise. It gives you a leg up, maybe it's an indicator but it's definitely not an exhaustive study to see if that's a good one. Or the other thing they do is they go to these top 10 VPN lists and there are tons and tons of these but most of them, if not all of them are either affiliate link farms or they've actually, people have paid to be on that list. So I didn't wanna go through any of either of those and I was kind of paralyzed how to choose a new one and listener Lynn to my podcast sent me the Consumer Reports white paper which they put out for public use. You don't, it's not kind of paywall or anything. So I read the 48 pages, not every single line of it but I got the gist of it of what they were testing and how they were testing. And then they, like you said, they narrowed it down to four. The four they narrowed it down to was MOLVAD, IVPN, Mozilla VPN and PIA which stands for Private Internet Access. What I did beyond that, what I loved about this was I didn't have to take any of the security and privacy stuff into account because it's already been answered. I know these four companies are doing things right. So from there I could go with my own personal reasons why I want a VPN and what I wanna use it for. And it is really important to keep in mind that there's a lot of different reasons to have a VPN like you outlined. So everybody's decision criteria at this point is going to be different. If you wanna watch the BBC and you're in the US maybe you want it for one reason. If you travel a lot like I do to foreign countries I wanna be able to be on a VPN everywhere I go even if I go into a coffee shop at a local place. So I sat down and created what's called a QFD and QFD people you're going to hate the way I do a QFD. This is a simplified QFD, got it. Yeah, like when Tom tells you how micro LEDs work and he tells you if you really know about displays you're gonna hate this but leave me alone I'm trying to simplify it. So I do a very simplified form of a QFD where you put down all of your criteria first and you give each one of them a waiting factor of a one, a three or a nine. You're not allowed to go one, two, three, you can't go to one to 10. It has to be one, three or nine so that the answer ends up pulling apart between these. So I gave each of my criteria a one, three or a nine in importance and then I tested each of the four services against those criteria and other things that I discovered along the way. And then you'll give each one of the, you take each criterion for a given service and you give it a one, three or nine on how well does it meet it? For example, price. A one would be boy that thing was really expensive a nine would be no, it was really inexpensive. So I was able to go through that and in the end what fell out for me was PIA was the best option. And what I really wanna stress here is two things. One, you don't have to pick what I picked. There's no reason for you to pick what I picked but I would like people to look at the study and see why you wanna look at a study that is independent, not a top 10 list but an independent study to help you understand the reasons why you would get a VPN and what would make a good VPN. And I've had a bunch of people challenged me already going, well, I use blah, blah, blah and it's the best, you should really consider it. It's like, yeah, but it did really poorly in the study so I'm not going to. So that's kind of the process I went to through and I'm really excited to have finally come to a conclusion. I found one that's pretty. It's actually the least expensive of the four and it does all the things I needed to do. As a Mozilla VPN user and subscriber, I pay for it. I use it for various things, not all day, every day. In fact, it kind of breaks things that I do otherwise but if I'm doing anything crypto related or just something that might be outside of the market that I would get normally if I was using a browser. No big business but yours. Exactly, it works really well and I'm kind of a Mozilla person in general so we're good there. But yeah, I think I have a lot of people who say, well, hold on a second. What are you doing that's so nefarious that you would need such a thing? And that is a legitimate question and maybe in some cases that would be the case but for those of us who understand how these things work and understand how logging works and how to be able to privately kind of go about your business a little bit more anyway than if you weren't using a VPN. It is really important, whatever you choose, you have to choose wisely but it can help your life on the line. Your Mozilla VPN is in the top four. So that's good. Yeah, and it's seamless. I mean, again, not free but it's seamless for me because I'm a Firefox user. Telling somebody they're being suspicious by using VPN is like saying, if you don't have anything to hide, why are you worried about privacy? Like, you know what, running a VPN is, some people run it, you said this in your article, Allison, some people run it at home just because they don't want their ISP to monetize their data and know where they're going and that's fine. I think VPNs have lots of very good uses. What I love about how you did this, Allison, is that you can adapt it and say, well, I don't just wanna go with the consumer reports one. Let me go and look at why they dinged the ones that didn't make it into the top four. Maybe I'll pick the top 16 because I'm less concerned about this aspect of the privacy and maybe more concerned about geolocation. Let's say you're someone in a country where certain services are blocked and you want to be able to access those services freely without the government stopping you from seeing them. A VPN is a way to do that and that may be more important to you and you might want the service that provides getting around geo blocks and put that in your prioritization higher than say the fact that it's in a five eyes country or the fact that it has a vague policy that may not be problematic, but we don't know, so we dinged it for that. And I think that's the important takeaway here is not consumer reports said it's these four, so only pick these four, it's Allison giving you a template to be like, hey, you know, this is a good starting point and you can adapt it to the things that are important to you. That's a really good point. I think the, if you look at the consumer reports article, one of the nice things is there's a whole bunch of bar graphs and you could look and see why did mine fall down in that or the one I'm considering, why did it fall down in that? And look at it like you said for is that important to me or not? It's a great resource. Even Bart didn't read the entire thing, but it's quite good. I like he said, even Bart who reads everything, he really does. But yeah, these bar graphs are great because the one I use, I use ExpressVPN, it falls down in a couple of things that I knew it fell down in and I was not surprised to see that data retention and deletion, but that's not something that has been in my use case for it as important. So this didn't make me angry that mine didn't make the top. It made me, it confirmed that like, oh, the thing that I thought was its weakness is agreed. And so we're all good. I, I was the one open. So an informed decision. Yeah, exactly. An informed decision, that's what it's about. Exactly. Top 10s don't give you that. But I tell you what, I have a backup that I use called PrivateTuttle that I've used for years because it was made by the open VPN folks and this was back before WireGuard was even a thing. And this is going to make me stop using it as a backup. I've used it as a backup because I bought a bunch of credits and the credits haven't run out yet, but it showed that it was great when I bought it back in 2012 but it hasn't kept up the time. So it's time to get a more secure backup. Yeah, I think Sarah alluded to one thing she kept saying she pays for it. Don't use a free VPN. Yeah, basically it's free. It's not, it's not. Yeah, too good to be true. Too good to be true. Well, here's a sentence that we don't say on the show all the time. Gucci loves Roblox. You might say, what are you talking about the high end fashion brand? Yeah, I am. Gucci did a collab with Roblox on the temporary Gucci garden last year. So if you're a Roblox person you might already have known about it. It's now launching a long-term space called Gucci Town with a central garden linking various areas space for minigames, a cafe, virtual store. That's where players can buy virtual Gucci gear for the Roblox avatar. That's actually making use of Roblox's new layered clothing technology. Gucci says more than 20 million Roblox players visited the garden and it's two week run last year. So it got a lot of attention. It wants its new more permanent space to develop and grow over time. Out in the non-metaverse world Gucci has also teamed up with E-Sports Organization 100 Thieves for a backpack and Microsoft for a very expensive cool Gucci themed Xbox. First thing I thought of is like, wait a minute isn't it younger folks using Roblox? And I went and looked it up 54% of the people who use Roblox are pre-teens are younger. Only 14% of the users are older than 25. Everybody else is between 13 and 24. That's the other 29%. And there's 202 million active users. So why are we marketing Gucci to a bunch of pre-teens? Tom, how many YouTube videos have you seen? Well, I don't know. I'm not gonna judge you, but like at the end where they go, Gucci. Gucci is like, young people love the brand. Not necessarily because they're gonna have a Gucci handbag because they're very expensive. This is a high-end brand. But it's like, it's a thing. It's like a fun thing that I think people want to be a part of. You were describing it as a poster on a wall basically, except in Roblox. Exactly. Yeah. Makes perfect sense. Good old Gucci. All right, let's check out the mailbag. Let's do it. Mohan had some thoughts on our conversation we had with Justin Marbet Young yesterday about proton and email migration in general, which he did recently. Mohan says, looked into proton mail, can't really use it with my choice, email clients evolution and Thunderbird, depending on which OS I'm using since it's encrypted. So no IMAP or CalDAV, Cardav support. But I decided to fully migrate over to Zoho mail. Wasn't an easy task. I'm 99% done. Zoho offers free and paid services of everything that Google does and none of the tracking or advertising. I have to say, I've been really happy with it. And it's great to have just one email address for everything that I use. Also, George wrote in and said that while switching to proton mail does take a little effort, proton offers a built-in utility and he found it pretty smooth. So he had a good experience switching over from Gmail to proton mail. Well, thanks to Mohan and George for writing in about this. Yeah, because yesterday in our show, we were sort of like, at least me. I was like, seems kind of cumbersome. Is it easy? And it sounds like no, not necessarily super seamless, but if you want to do it, can be done. All right. Well, thanks to Len Peralta, who has been illustrating today's show. Len, you must have drawn that Gucci, right? Well, you know, here in the United States, it's a holiday weekend and it's Memorial Day on Monday. And this weekend, I'm getting ready to get started. So I am going down to Gucci town. That's what this image is. I'm heading out the Gucci town right after this show. I'm leaving and it's gonna be one heck of a time. Looking forward to getting on my Gucci belt and my Gucci, you know, just everything. Gucci loafers, got Gucci glasses, all of the things. Exactly, exactly. So yeah, so I'm getting down to Gucci town. This image, if you're interested in it, is at my Patreon, patreon.com forward slash Len. You get it right there right now if you are a backer. Also, it's at my online store, lennepraulestore.com. If you wanna go ahead and purchase it, you'll get it sent to you either digitally or, you know, as a print signed by me. So get on down, get out there to Flavortown and the Gucci town. Get on down to Gucci town, you know? Hang out with Len. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Good stuff as always, Len. Alison Sheridan, so good to have you on the show. Let folks know what you've been up to lately. Well, if you don't have the energy to read my 6,000 word post or listen to it on my podcast about VPNs. Tom did a fantastic know a little more about Quantum Dot OLEDs, but I also had John Syracusa on my show Chitchat Across the Pond Light. He's from the Accidental Tech podcast and he walks us through LCDs to LEDs to OLEDs to Quantum Dot LEDs. It's a wonderful conversation that in the way only John can do. Yeah, my know a little more is the 100 level class and John did like the 300 level class. They're good compliments, I think. Yes, yeah. Like you were like the junior college. Yeah, yeah. And John is like, well, this is your major. Yeah, you can find all that at podfeet.com. Perfecto. Thanks to our brand new bosses because we got two of them, Matt O and Logan T just started backing us on Patreon. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Logan. Yay, it's so good to get new patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you so much. Yeah, we're gonna roll into the weekend feeling pretty good about ourselves. There's also a longer version of the show called Good Day Internet. It rolls right in after DTNS and it's available at patreon.com. slash DTNS. Just a reminder, if you'd like to join us live, we do it live. Monday through Friday, 4 p.m. Eastern, 200 UTC. Find out more at dailytechnewshow.com. slash live. Reminder, we're off Monday for the Memorial Day holiday in the U.S., but we're back Tuesday with our guest, Chris Ashley. Have a great weekend, everyone. Talk to you soon. This week's episodes of Daily Tech News Show were created by the following people, host producer and writer, Tom Merritt, host producer and writer, Sarah Lane, executive producer and booker, Roger Chang, producer, writer and host, Rich Strafilino, video producer and Twitch producer, Joe Coons, technical producer, Anthony Lemos, Spanish language host, writer and producer, Dan Campos, news host, writer and producer, Jen Cutter, science correspondent, Dr. Nicky Ackermanns, social media producer and moderator, Zoe Deterding. Our mods! Beatmaster, W. Scottus One, BioCow, Captain Kipper, Gadget Virtuoso, Steve Guadirama, Paul Rees, Matthew J. Stevens and J.D. Galloway. Modern video hosting by Dan Christensen, video feed by Sean Wei, music and art provided by Martin Bell, Dan Looters, Mustafa A. A. Kast and Len Peralta. Live art performed by Len Peralta. A. Kast adds support from Tatiana Matias, Patreon support from Dylan Harari, contributors for this week's shows included Scott Johnson, Justin Robert Young and Allison Sheridan and our guest this week were Aaron Carson and David Spark and thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. I hope you have enjoyed this program. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.