 older episodes that needed to be broadcast and publish final and got those out past couple of weeks from the 21 convention last year in Orlando. Coming up soon, of course, about two weeks away in Orlando, Florida, final manuscript conference gathering of the decade. It's going to be fucking awesome. On today's episode of the red man group, though, I want to discuss the make towel community itself and that whole movement. As part of the larger man is fair. This has been addressed on the show before on the red man group. It's been a long time. I believe the first episode ever dealing with it at all was actually pretty infamous. It was with YouTuber turd flinging monkey was on the show. This is about a year ago. It's just a long time ago at the beginning of the show. And that was a big surprise. The other panels in the show, then like Donovan sharp and Dr. Sean T Smith, none of them were aware that turd flinging monkey TF family have to actually say his name like that had actually married a doll, like a sex doll. And it has his own Instagram account and, you know, all these pages and stuff. That was pretty wild. I remember I wasn't on the show that day myself, but I remember seeing Donovan sharp is absolutely like jaw dropping shocked. So that was interesting. DDGF course has its own history. It's pretty notorious with TFM as big falling out and dispute in their community a long time ago. So in this episode today, I wanted to dig into the community itself, though what it is, some of its history, and maybe we'll get into the positives and negatives of it criticisms and stuff like that. Keep it respectful and civil. Steve, the Dean Williams is known for having respectful criticism and commentary in this community. Myself, I kind of have my own opinions, like third party almost of it. I'll share those throughout the show. DDJ though is the one who has the most familiar familiarity with this community with this movement as part of the larger Manusphere. So DDJ, if you can open up the show, tell us a little bit about the MGTAC community and what your involvement with it has been over the years. Sure. I'm well, let me start by saying this. I mean, before Red Pill was an actual term and before MGTAC was a term, we used to have this term called confirmed bachelors, where you know, they were men who chose not to marry, maybe they chose not to have children. And they were just, you know, they chose to live their life for whatever reason. So I think that when it comes to this sort of thing, that's really kind of the genesis of a lot of these, you know, MGTAC ideas and concepts. When it comes to the actual term MGTAC, that was developed in like 2006 and 2007 on a website called No Ma'am. It was a blog. If you actually search for it, there's a lot of references to like married with children. It's kind of a little bit of a tongue in cheek. But there is a plethora of information on that site that discusses why men go MGTAC. But what's interesting is that, you know, from 2006 to today in 2019, what a lot of people talked about when it came to the concept of the MGTAC lifestyle and the MGTAC philosophy has completely changed and in many, many ways. So for example, originally MGTAC promoted three things. And there was actually a MGTAC manifesto. And so the MGTAC manifesto, the thing about it is it was they promoted masculine men, they promoted feminine women and they promoted limited government. So the reason that that's important is because those are very American viewpoints, very American philosophies. Now, as MGTAC started delving into certain things, one of the ways that they promoted feminine women per se, is that they shunned and stayed away from women who were not considered feminine. In other words, women who did not have feminine traits. And once the laws started switching, or people started realizing, I should say that the laws were basically discriminate discriminatory against masculine men, then the MGTAC community started promoting avoidance of marriage, specifically because they were concerned about the mass indoctrination of women who were indoctrinated to hate men. Now, it's important to know two things. This isn't Yeah, this is in mid 2000s. And it's important to note a few things. One of the first things that that I think is important to note is that the MGTAC community was not misogynistic and didn't hate women. So everybody understands that there are a lot of differences between men and women, for example, you know, men are at the higher end of the IQ spectrum. And if you look at a lot of YouTube channels, men are also at the lower end of the IQ spectrum, right? And then you look at women and women usually sit somewhere in the middle. So you usually don't have a lot of women that are knuckle dragon, booger eat morons, whereas you're going to have a higher number of men that are like that. But then on the same token, you know, when it comes to, you know, inventions that impact history, you know, on a macro scale, the vast majority of those are done by men. So when it comes to those types of things, that's kind of that's kind of one of the things that the MGTAC philosophy and the MGTAC lifestyle really discussed was this idea that, you know, we don't hate women. It's just that we understand that there's differences. And we also understand that there's mass indoctrination going on. And on top of that, we don't live our lives based on gynocentric validation. And now for a lot of people, I mean, I'm discussing terminology. So for anybody watching this, who may be relatively new to the hemisphere, relatively new to MGTAC, MGTAC means men going their own way, relatively new to this lifestyle. A lot of people don't understand these terms, but they're still living that lifestyle in that they're avoiding marriage, they're avoiding cohabitation, and you know, they're avoiding women who are feminist indoctrinated. And the thing about it is, is that when you're talking about gynocentrism, that feminist indoctrination also occurs on the conservative side as well. So even though there's that left, right dichotomy, there are many women who are conservative, who embrace feminist ideology. And that's a problem, because feminist ideology is cancer. And I think Milo said that the best. Yeah, totally. And this is like women who are pretending to be like, they call them MAGA thoughts and stuff like that. Well, and yeah, and before they were MAGA thoughts, I used to call them cosplay conservatives. Because what's happened is if you look in like, for instance, the 80s and the 90s, there were a lot of women out there that embraced, you know, slut culture, they embraced thought culture before thought was actually a term. And then what ended up happening is people realize, look, you know, these women are great for the weekend, you know, they're great for time shares, but we can't have relationships with these women because you can't turn a hoe into a housewife. So what they ended up doing is these women figured it out. So when the men started leaving, first, first and foremost, instead of going right to conservatives, what they did is they got into cosplay. So they started going to the anime conventions, they started going to the, you know, the gaming conventions and dressing up in provocative outfits to get attention from these men. When that's didn't work, and they realized they were time shares there, now they've all rebranded themselves as conservative cosplay. And they're like loading from like niche sexual marketplace to niche sexual marketplace. Correct. And Lauren Southern is a big, she's a big example of that. She didn't go to the cosplay. She went right to the conservative and she was promoting women to get married into be traditional and conservative, but then she wasn't living that lifestyle herself. And enough people ended up calling her out. And then for whatever reason, she ended up saying, okay, I'm done with public life and she was out. Now, but that said, when we go back to the MGTOW philosophy, I mean, because each one of these could be the subject of its own show. So I think that when you talk about this, and you, and you have this conversation, you know, it's important to understand that, you know, the people the the original MGTOW men that were out there, okay, the concepts, the philosophies, the information, many of those things trickled all across every tribe of the Manisphere. And so a lot of that wisdom was there. Now, I'm not saying that that the entire foundation, I'm not saying the yeah, go ahead and ask you, you know, the MGTOW community has obviously, based on what you're saying, what I've already known previously, it's been developing concurrently with the Thickapartis community, with the larger Manisphere, and even with the men's rights community, which I viewed in like my in the mid 2000s, and then my early 20s, I, I assumed that I still mostly believe it was the men's rights community that steered me away from legal, legally entangling marriage. I had like a private marriage that kind of cooked up years ago in my 20s. But it sounds like that might have also been influenced by the MGTOW community. Well, and let's, and let's talk about that cross pollination. There are many men in the MGTOW community, who all they do, well, all they, they have sex with women, and they use pickup artistry techniques to have sex with women, and then they fire, and they forget, and they go from there. But I know, for example, of an Australian MGTOW video content creator, all he does is fuck married women. Like, that's his thing. And so, you know, and, and, and so we're clear, I'm not talking about human. So, but I mean, you know, this guy's been around for a while, but so you have to understand that this, this is very common. There's a, there's a MGTOW content creator who no longer creates content in the UK, who is a very, very financially affluent, you know, PUA, and he would go and he would have sex with women. He just would not, he would not cohabitate with them, and he would not marry them, and he wouldn't even give them money. He would just be like, here you go, have a nice day. And then there's, there's an element of the MGTOW movement who have a lot of money, and they stay away from women generally, except for the fact that they patronize prostitutes. So, so there's that element as well. But then when you start talking about MGTOW 2.0 and MGTOW 3.0, what happens is that you get away from the MGTOW philosophy, and you get these new cults of personality who basically are trying to own what they see as a MGTOW brand. And so they're like, well, you know, I need to create my own audience. So I'm going to just reframe what this means and go from there. And let me just say something about that. In my book, The Feminist Lie, one of the things that I call out feminist for doing is redefining and reframing the idea of patriarchy and redefining and reframing opposition to feminist ideology as a hatred of women. Those two things were super victories for feminist, because now when anybody talks about patriarchy, they think it's something different. They listen to the feminist definition, and they refuse to look at the different dictionary definition. And it's the same thing with, you know, opposition to feminist ideology. Let me tell you something. An ideology is not a gender. It is an ideology. That's why they're different words. And so what happens is with the MGTOW community, you had content creators in the MGTOW community probably four or five years ago that started reframing MGTOW as something completely different. And they reframed it, oh, this is MGTOW 2.0. Look at us. We're evolving. You know, this is MGTOW 3.0. Look at us. We're evolving. And what they did is they did that. And then what they did is they actually shamed other MGTOW who followed MGTOW 1.0. And they're like, oh, you're just a blue pill cuck, or you're a purple pill, or you're whatever, and this and that. Now, I'm not going to say this as well. I'm not saying that any MGTOW is or is not racist. I noticed that from one of the commenters. I'm not going to say that any MGTOW is or is not misogynist. There are people, just like in every other community, there are people who are misogynist. There are people who are racist. There are people who were who have these other issues that that basically, unfortunately, we have some bad actors who have painted the entire community of that. But the sad part about this is, is that a lot of these content creators three, four and five years ago, they ended up being so effective in reframing what MGTOW really is that they've evolved it into something else. And so now the MGTOW community is full of doxers. The MGTOW community is full of incels. And again, I'm not, it's a word clear too. I'm not shaming incels. I'm frustrated by the incel community because they should know and they have the tools at their disposal to know that if they start living free from gynocentric validation, regardless of what anybody else calls them, they cease being incels. Yeah, I was going to ask you before I bring Steven for his comments on this. You know, as the incel community, a lot of people especially outside the manager, they would lump together an incel community and the MGTOW community. Are you saying that's not the case? I'm saying that the problem that you have is that incel and MGTOW are mutually exclusive. So one of the things that Steve talks about, and it's one of the things I support, and I've always supported even prior to coming online as a kid, because Steve and I are relatively the same age and we've lived in certain aspects. We've lived, there's been some crossover in our previous lifestyles, not individually, but just in the lifestyle choices we've made. And the thing about that is, is that, you know, when you live free from dynocentric validation, free from female validation, you're chasing your chasing success. You're chasing what you're chasing. And when you chase success, a woman's attention is just the icing on the cake. So MGTOW men do the same thing. The actual MGTOW men do the same thing. They don't, they don't run around chasing women. They don't focus their life on picking up women or any of that. They're successful in their own lives at their own, like, like how they see success, right? And then, you know, they've got jobs, they're financially independent, they've, they're able to move forward, you know, in their own life, and they don't worry about that. And then the women just make themselves available. Whereas the incels, the incels are like thirsty PUAs. And I say thirsty PUAs, because I don't think every PUA is thirsty. But you know, look, if you're wearing mirror shades and you're in mom's bathrobe, and you got fucking, you know, 1990s matrix background in your bullshit, and you're making videos, and all you're talking about is how thirsty you are. Maybe you're not going the right direction, just saying. But that said, what happens is these incels are like, I deserve to touch the golden vagina. And I'm upset that I can't do it. And then, and then what happens is they go, Well, if I want to get laid, maybe I should go to the gym, they don't say that. Or if I want to get laid, maybe I need a job, or maybe I need to show some some form of success. I know guys that were dirt poor catching the bus, but because they took care of themselves physically, and they did calisthenics and body weight strength training exercises, they got they got as much pussy as they want. So it's not about finance alone, it's not about that aspect, but it's about the fact that these incels sit down, they don't do anything to improve themselves. And all they do is bitch about how they should be entitled. And the sad part about it is, is that they are no better than the feminists who sit and bitch and don't do anything to fix the problem. And they are contributing to the problem rather than the solution. The issue you have now is, is that many of these incels are still in that area where they were they number one, they need female validation. Number two, they want female attention. Number three, they're angry about not having female attention. And so what they do is they reframe themselves as migtau because they want to be part of a tribe. And then it become and then they're like, they don't they don't do the things that you need to fix. I mean, the idea of migtau is twofold. Okay, it's one, living free from gynocentric validation, living free from female validation. But then the other half, which is just as important, is you have to be doing things in your life to make your life better. You know, if you, if you, you take care of your health, you take care of your intellect, you take care of your finances, you take care of those things. And it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor or whatever, everybody can live within their means and everybody can move up at least in the United States, because we have a lot of opportunities to do that. It's about living minimalistically within your means. It's about practicing a little bit of stoicism. It's about having some backbone. And it's about not bitching when it rains outside. And I mean, that as much figuratively as I do literally. So when it comes to those types of things, yeah, there's there's a lot of of entryism in there. And there are content creators out there who are shilling certain products directly to in cells and saying, buy my product, you'll be cool. Yeah. So that's a problem. Let's let's shift gears a little bit and talk about, I mean, this is a whole that was a whole conversation, holy fuck, from incels to mixtap to mixtap 1.0 2.0 holy fuck. I like to take the conversation over to me and Steve a bit. You know, we all three of us have been around for a long time in the hemisphere. I found it when I was 17. So I've been around for 13 14 years now. Steve's been doing this thing for even longer than that. You know, over about 20 years or more, Steve. You're muted, Steve. Since the late 90s, since the late 90s. Okay, good time. So let's comment, Steve, about some of the things we like about Mctown before we get into criticisms and stuff. I can say what I like about it is it's a part of the hemisphere. It's a distinct group. And, you know, they do get some criticism and some of it is probably legitimate. But for the most part, they seem aware of like very serious problems today in the West for men, legally and culturally and socially and all these things. So I like that. They have different solutions, obviously, and different outcomes of what they're going to do with that information. But they're aware of this stuff. And that to me is important. It's important because they're not contributing to more of this like feminist empire, when we get to get, you know, through a divorce court and child custody and all this shit, they get to steal all the goodies from men. So these guys are not making that problem worse. They're kind of like getting at the sidelines at minimum. They're getting out of the problem. They're not contributing to it. And I like that they're not encouraging men to do stupid shit, for sure. So I like that a lot. They also, you know, like DDJ is talking about, they focus on themselves, you know, to take care of their health, take care of the finances, take care of their life as a man. We might not agree with that all the time, you know, other parts of the man's sphere, but they do, they're doing that pretty well, a lot better than your average shump walking around just doing random shit, you know, drinking shitty beer, cheap beer, duff beer right out of the Simpsons, sitting around eating, getting what is it, you know, aging way of Cheeto dust all of your face or something like that. Well, and can I interject real quick too? Just kind of dovetail what you're saying. Listen, let me tell you something. There are a lot of guys in the man's sphere who understand how successful MGTOW men are. And what they do is they start their YouTube channels as MGTOW channels. And then what they do is they transfer to something else once they've made their population and they started getting their pay pigs, you know, so so they're you know what I'm saying? And for those who don't know a pay pig is a Patreon or a subscribe star person who gives these people money because they like their content. That's just kind of a defensive term for it. But yeah, there's a lot of guys out there who start out and they're like, MGTOW MGTOW MGTOW. And then they get their 50 or 100,000 subs. And then they switch over to something else. And they're like, I was never MGTOW. No, they yeah, they fuck off every part of the community has this you'll have content creators get inside of some group of it. The Red Pill has this too. And then they fuck off and they say you see it now guys turning on the man's sphere, they call it like gay night clubs and shit or something like that. You know, it's funny. Ha ha ha. The man's sphere is not a perfect term. But I see people content creators, you know, we don't need to name names, but they're turning on that term, not because of the name, but because of the concept. And they're using the names and excuse to turn their backs on this community. And that's really fucking retarded. And I don't see, you know, DDJ doing that. And that's fucking fantastic. Well, and the good news about this is that a lot of the guys that do do that sort of thing where they where they're disparaging of the different tribes of the man's sphere. The advantages is that usually their wives are pretty available. Yeah. Steve, do you want to hop in and comment on some positives you see about the McTown community? Obviously you and DDJ have had a pretty good relationship on the show. And you guys are both from different parts of the sphere. So I like that a lot. Well, no, no, I don't, to me, I don't I, I, it's hard to say anything good because I don't, I don't under, I don't understand. I mean, good, I could say is that I met DDJ is a good, I mean talking to DJ is a good person. But as far as the the Midtown movement goes for me, I don't, I don't necessarily see anything positive about it. In my opinion, I mean, I respect it, but I don't, I don't, I don't see that it really helps men being men, in my opinion. I don't, I don't see it as a man thing, because it was I can understand that Midtown was going on since the beginning of time. And it was a thing. But like all things in the internet, it's just, it seems like people just come up with stuff and just try to follow fads. But it's not, I mean, no disrespect, but that's just how I see. I just don't, I don't see anything not net. I see that it affects a lot of people in bad ways, because it takes to me, it takes away from manhood to me. It's, you know, it it's, I just, I don't, I don't know the understanding concept or understand why people would even do that. But I mean, that's just my opinion. It's no knock, but it's just, I just, I mean, like well, and let me, yeah, and let me dovetail on what Steve is saying, because here's the thing, you make towers really good for each individual man who does it. It is not good for society. It is not good for procreation. It is not good for the creation of your own family. And that's one of the things that a lot of me tell content creators are unwilling to address. And frankly, Steve's criticism is extremely valid, because, you know, while individual men like myself, we understand that, yeah, for us, this is our personal choice. I'm not knocking anybody else for their own choice, but on the same token, I know that, look, see, so I would, I might, I might be more proactive towards Steve's view. If I did not have my four children already and my two grandchildren and been married twice, right? So I've experienced those things in life, whereas some men have not. And, and I think that part of manhood is, is, is having that. I mean, if we, if we take out the feminist indoctrination of the reasons why men go to MGTOW, Steve's right on point. Steve's absolutely on point. And even if, even with those things, MGTOW doesn't help our society. It doesn't help our community. It doesn't strengthen marital relationships. It doesn't strengthen all of those things. And, and, and some of that's by design. But the reality is that at the end of the day, if we really want to look at it objectively from that lens, from the lens of creating a family, the lens of having a relationship from the lens of, of, you know, of raising your children. Yeah, MGTOW is not good for society. And, and I've said this many times. Yeah, I didn't really just cut out. Yeah, I wanted to comment on Steve's thing about, you know, MGTOW has been around a long ass time, like you're talking about two DDJ. And that to me is like a sociological issue. And that's actually one of my, you know, outside observer things. I've never been really a part of the MGTOW community obviously, except to the extent a part of the Manusphere. But the fact that it's existed for so long, and it's gotten so big, I think it's at least as big as the Red Pill community, a couple hundred thousand across like Reddit and YouTube and all the stuff. It's a big, it's a big chunk of guys who are really actively engaged with it, right? It may even mean more than that. Yeah, we call that the stated MGTOW community because there's two types of community, yes, stated and unstated, but right, right. And Pickup Artist community is the same way on Reddit, they have like an R seduction, they have like 300,000, but then you have YouTube channels that are huge sometimes, like simple pickup and RSD and stuff. So it's like how big is it? It's hard to say. But yeah, you have the explicit and then you kind of have guys on the periphery who read the game or watched TV show or some shit. But per Steve's comment, like it's it's really interesting that it keeps existing and it exists for so long. And you know, why is that? I think there's, you know, for better or for worse, there's a there's a reason that's existed for so long. It's existed and evolved in parallel to these other groups in the atmosphere. And I can't I can't deny that that's a fact of reality. It's a fact of life and it's it continues to persist, no matter how much criticism, you know, right or wrong that the community gets. And it's big. And I think there's a reason, you know, there is a reason it exists. One of the things I've heard Socrates say about the McTaw community, one of our panelists and, you know, 21 convention speakers is that the McTaw communities for guys who are like risk averse first they're identifying these red pill issues with women today and so, you know, culture, but then they're more risk averse. So they choose risk averse options and they exit the sexual marketplace. And that could be because like they're really low in SMB, or they just don't have any tolerance for the fucking insanity of like feminist culture today from from me to stuff to believe women to divorce rape and all this bullshit, like the list of problems with like feminism today affecting men is really long. And I do realize in that stuff. Yeah, and I agree with Socrates, I've met Socrates, he's a great guy. I've listened to a lot of what he says he's absolutely great. But I think I think something needs to be said as well is that when it comes to McTaw 1.0 guys like me, risk averse doesn't mean not getting laid. Okay, it just doesn't. Right. What it means is we're not cohabitated, we're not married. And a lot of people including new McTaw content creators, McTaw content creating, you know, the last 18 months or so. A lot of these guys, they're like, oh, don't talk to women, don't be with women, don't you know, and they're and they're talking about basically, you know, they're radicalizing these men at such a level, that these men can't even get their sexual needs filled. And that's to me, that's a problem. Because, you know, there's levels of risk adversity. And many of us are, you know, they still date women, they'll still have sex with women, they'll still have, you know, distant relationships with women, that kind of thing. They just don't cohabitate or marry. But then you have another, like I said, a McTaw 2.0, McTaw 3.0, that's like, don't talk to women, don't be around women, and I can tell you, I'm the first McTaw content creator to actually have a female cohost on my live stream when I ran DDJs Inferno, I had a Lily even 32. And I caught so much shit from that. You trade. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's why I would challenge these guys. I was like, well, what's the concept of McTaw? It's don't cohabitate, don't marry, right? And they're like, yeah, I said, well, am I doing any of that? And they're like, no, that's all right. Well, you know, go take your meds and get back to me. So anyway, I apologize, I'm jumping in a lot. No, it's good. Yeah, you're the, you're the McTaw rep here. Like, I don't know much about it. I mean, Steve or just kind of like on the outside looking at it. Yeah, listen, let me tell you something. If men have sexual needs, and, you know, whether you choose to rub one out or whether you choose to go, you know, hang out with a woman or whatever. That's that's your thing. But I think that a lot of these guys out there is, you know, they do these odd things. And let me tell you another dirty secret about the McTaw community. And I say this after being on some McTaw discords. The dirty secret of the McTaw community is that a lot of these McTaw men, especially the ones that are like stay away from women, they're like undercover brothers. They're into traps. Okay. I mean, it's it's it's it's not good. The thirst is real. And so these guys are patronizing trap camhors and all this other stuff. And they're like, Oh, I guess that's okay. It's like, yeah, no, I mean, it's yeah, it's it's crazy. And and they're pretty open about it. And that's to me, that just doesn't make a lot of sense. Because if you don't want to be around a crazy woman, why would you want to be around a community that makes crazy woman look sane? You know, so Oh, and to speak to Steve's point about McTaw being a new thing, I agree with him in that prior to 2006, the term McTaw didn't exist. However, you know, I'm 49. And back in when I was 1817 16 years old, I lived in a big military town. The town that I lived in had 100,000 people. We had two seriously large military bases. We had an Air Force base, we had an Army base. And I had a lot of guys that were friends. I had my neighbors when I was 19. I had next door to me, I had a two bedroom place next door to me was a two bedroom place. And there were four guys from first group special forces live in there. And so we would talk about the military all the time. Now the reason I bring this up is because back even in the 70s in the 80s, the military was telling the telling their troops, look, when you just deploy to this base, whether it's Korea or Japan or Okinawa or Guam, or even in certain places in rural United States, you just stay away from these hoes, because they will lock you down with a kid. And then once they got the kid and the child support, they're going to kick you to the curb and the military is going to force you and they're going to order you to sign whatever order she puts up. So these guys, even before MGTOW, the military was warning these these young kids who were young, dumb and full of cum. How to avoid, you know, thought culture per se, because they didn't want these guys to have their lives destroyed. So so you know, even though the term MGTOW is new, this is something that's occurred for a very long time. Yeah. Well, oh, well, let's say by the way, guys, if you want to call Steve, we got these calling 6.059373 and call us up comments about MGTOW, ask us a question. Steve will bring in Steve. Go ahead. Yeah. Again, I don't know 1.0 and 2.0 and all that other stuff. Um, and again, this might not even be about what with DDJ is talking about. But from what I've seen from other people, I won't definitely not you, DDJ, but from other people out there, I've seen that these things have turned into like more like cults than helping helping young men out as far as just because it's taking it's taking the responsibility and accountability out of being a man. Yeah. Instead of being your own community, it seems like they're reeling people in to say, OK, because your mom, your mom didn't teach you how to be your, you know, you had you, you're attached to mom's a biblical court or, you know, you were never responsible. You didn't take accountability. Come come with us. And you got you're allowed to hang out with us and we will protect you under our umbrella type. And I was saying you, but I'm saying that's what I've been seeing a lot with a lot of people that's no one's taking a accountability for themselves as men. Now, and I understand, OK, but I've never understood this now much I mean, what is the term go when you go your own way? Where are you going? I never understood. OK, I love this criticism. I never understood it. Oh, yeah. So the idea of going, yeah, the idea of going your own way, right, is is that you're to live your life free from female gyno centrism. Now, let me let me let me take a step back. Okay. And Steve, you know, this I think is probably an area where because I know you're close to my age, this is an area where you were raised a little bit differently than me, I think. So when I was a kid prior to feminism taking this whole thing out, when I was a kid, they told me, look, graduate high school, go to college or get a trade, get a good job by a decent car, get a house, go look for a wife, have 2.3 kids, get a pet and take a vacation every two weeks and live your life and raise your family. That's what we were all told. So when when all this stuff came up, we were like, Yeah, that sounds great. This is a good thing. Well, at the end of the day, what ends up happening is, is that the migtail community, when you say, go your own way, what you're actually discussing is doing things in a way that doesn't do the family that doesn't do the kids that doesn't do the wife. And you and you're living as a either a bachelor or you're living at somebody who just dates. So I think that when they're talking about going your own way, that's really what they mean. If and I can tell you right now, one of the older content creators, I say older content creators, I mean, a content creator who's been around a long time. Even he has said, he believes that when it comes to the migtail community, that migtail is not a permanent state for most people, if that makes sense. I hope that explains it. But yeah. Well, well, yeah, okay, see, okay. See, when I was growing up, like you, you know, I grew up in a time where we were told that as well, you know, you know, the 2.5 kids, the white picket fence, the pie and all that other bullshit, right? We were told all that. But we were also told that as a man, you know, you are responsible for your life. You cannot point the finger or you can blame anybody for what's going on in your life. And and to, to, you know, have a, you know, having a job, having a job, you know, the career and all the other stuff. I don't that to back then for guys like me was not going your way. That was just a way of living. I mean, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to, you're supposed to have a job and, you know, you know, go to work, be responsible. Standard operating procedure. Absolutely. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Um, but yeah, but the thing was, but, but again, for us, we were always told that look, you are, you are the, the essence of who you are. And you, you allow people to treat you the way you want to be treated. It's not the to it was never the other way around for me. You, it wasn't. Now, don't get me wrong. I mean, you're a police officer could treat you the way he wanted to treat you, you know, right, right, right, right, right, I don't know. I take your point and I respect what you say. I think that when it comes to the big top community, a lot of this didn't come up until 2006, 2008, 2010. And then it really didn't take off until 2015, 2016, when these content creators started trying to change the definition of what it was. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if you know, but yeah, that's what I'm saying. But see if you notice from something like your poop flinging eight, what's it you got it? Yes. That's close enough. Go on. Well, whoever I mean, but okay, that's where I have the issue because people like that are killing manhood because let me let me jump into Steve. I wanted to take it here. This is exactly where I want to take conversation. So Steve, you mentioned, you know, the cult stuff a few minutes ago about Mctown and all that. And I said, I've seen that happen in every community of the Manisphere at the Pickup Artist Movement. You know, Owen Cook from Real Social Dynamics was accused of that years ago with RSD. Obviously, we've had that in the red pill space with some stuff. And in the Mctown community, they have they had that as well. DDJ and poop flinging monkey had a had a big falling out about a year ago or something. And that was a real cult stuff going on, in my opinion, from what I do know of it. So yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And a lot of people go ahead. You need to finish. You got more. No, no. Well, I would just I just want to say with that that to me that's where I see issue because a lot of these young boys are impressionable. And a lot of these young boys, you know, they they're they're lost and they're confused. And and then where they're they have people telling you to sleep with a dog. I mean, the fact I was I'm glad I wasn't on that show that y'all had that time, Anthony, because I was not either, man. I'm not about it. Yeah. I see that's where I have issues like that with people like that who are taking these young boys that are impressionable and they're pushing the agenda of sleeping, having a doll and you know, all these things hang on Steve to clarify. It's not just sleep with a doll or have a doll, which is one thing. He teed poop flinging monkey married the doll, but like has a fucking relationship with it has conversations with it from my understanding, like some some really crazy all right, let me let me let me just say this first and foremost, I got I got to point out an obvious hypocrisy in this whole in this in this conversation. And I say this because I think it's I think it's important. Okay. And I say this because I again, I want to I want to be as objective as I can. So with that said, let's let me say this. If we're not going to shame women for sex toys, then we probably should go ahead and leave that leave the screen and then leave it for all three of us. So that way people because because I know there's been some complaints. Thank you. If we're not going to shame women for sex toys, then let's not shame men for sex toys either. Now, let me let me also say some other things too. So one of the big things in in the in the community that promotes sex dolls is the idea that you can have an emotional relationship with it. Well, the AI isn't there number one. And number two, let me discuss what the AI is there for. So that when you when a lot of these guys have these phone apps, the guys who are having to quote unquote relationships with their sex dolls, they have these phone apps and one of them is called replica. And what they do is they program it to to say to respond the way they want it to respond, right? So they train what they do is they train it and then it's like a mini game. So you continue to train it and you get levels of training. And then eventually the doll says whatever you want it to say. Now let me explain why that's a problem. The reason that that's a problem is because what happens is this is one of the reasons that I really respect Steve. Steve respects me. I know he does when we disagree. Steve does not hold back. Every man needs a friend like that in their life because if you don't, you live in an echo chamber and you become more and more extreme with mental masturbation and that's some bullshit. You got to have guys in your life who are strong enough to disagree with you. If you don't, they are sycophants or they are your enemies hiding in plain sight in your teeth. Their secret gamma henchmen secret gamma haters. Okay. And again, as we know, every tribe has them. So the reason I bring that up and the reason that that's important, let's go back is I want to make sure that's explained because when you have a program where you have trained, you know, your program to go, Oh, yeah, baby, I like you. Whatever you're creating an echo chamber. Number one, number two, it's psychologically unhealthy. And number three, you what you're doing is, is you're destroying the possibility of a man having social skills. So like one of the reasons that men interact with women, one of the reasons you don't socially isolate in general is because men who socially isolate, they become insane and they end up dying. And let me jump across a couple tangents that are important here. Can I pause here a quick DJ? I just want to ask you a very simple direct question. Sure. Is third flinging monkey breeding the next match shooter with this marrying a sex doll shit and related issues or what? I've heard this I've heard him accused of this, you know, in other areas, you know what? I I I haven't watched his content a long time. But I'll get into my specific terms. Honestly, I don't know. And that's and I could see where people based on because the thing about third flinging monkey is he is a dry sense of humor. And so I could see where people could take his humor and go, holy shit. But but but that said, let's not get there yet. Because again, we're switching. I want to make sure I completely explain this this issue here. So when you have a baby, give me. Well, I want to say something, but I'll go with you. Yeah, yeah. When you have a child, I'm a father, I was at all four of my children's birds. And I know that when you have a baby and that baby is not cuddled and cuddled. And let's say you have the baby in the hospital and nobody touches the baby and you leave the baby there, that baby will die. Okay, when you put men in solitary confinement and prison, it has major devastating consequences to men. It destroys them psychologically. They call it solid solitary confinement in many human rights organizations has called this torture. It's extremely psychologically unhealthy. And so what ends up happening is that when you teach men to to substitute valid emotional relationships, whether it be friendships with men, or whether it be romantic relationships with women, when you teach them to substitute that with an imperfect AI that all it does is become your, you know, your your hand puppet that you tell what to say and you teach what to say, right? You're creating a form of social isolation, which is extremely psychologically damaging to the men who do this. That to me is a huge fucking problem. Now, there's a difference between that and pride of ownership. Like, if you own a car and you've spent $10,000 or $100,000 on this car customizing your car, you're like, man, I love this car. This car is amazing. I drive it everywhere or whatever. But you know what? You're not trying to marry your car. You're not trying to to to have a family with your car. There's a difference between loving an item that you owned and pride of ownership and knowing that it's an inanimate object, then pretending that something is there that isn't because what you do is you cross the line to delusion at that point. Right. Okay. I see what you're saying. But okay, like I'm going to give you here's my example. Okay. Anthony is his own community. You are your own community, in my opinion, and I'm my own community. Okay. And when we come together, then we form what is known as a red man group of men who are in their own communities that are coming together in the community as yourself being your own man. And I'll form the head. Right. But what I what I what I've seen with again, I don't the two point ohs, I guess I don't I don't know the ones from the twos. But what I'm saying is, is that it seems like some of those things don't want you to be an individual. They don't want you to be your own community. It's right. Right. And and and when they went and that's where I get issue with because I think because and again, it goes back to that purple fleeing it, whatever his name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, people like that that, you know, people cling to because people want answers because they maybe didn't have that around or maybe they didn't have anybody around to show them what being a man's about. And what a lot of people do is they have this was called a sheep mentality or her excuse me, a herd behavior. They think just because everybody's following it that it's the right thing to do. And it's the it's the right place to go. And a lot of people look at these types of communities and they're like, OK, well, because there's millions of guys doing this, it's the right thing. And sometimes it's not the right thing because to me, it takes away from you being an individual. And if it seems like you put makes you part of the cog of that machine to keep it going and not you going. Well, and you and you and you touched on something that I've been talking about now for for a year. And people can look back on my YouTube channel Miss Andrew today hashtag shill alert. And you can look at my channel and you can see I have a video called Don't socially isolate yourself from a year ago. I've talked about this in probably three or four separate dojo videos. And the thing is that is that you are absolutely on point. This is why you have to have people you interact with in real life. I flew down to Florida. I met Anthony. I met Socrates, you know, my goal is to participate in the 21 convention and to meet these people face to face and to eyeball people. My goal is to eventually go and hang out, maybe have a couple beers, smoke a cigar have, you know, and have some downtime with these people that I respect so people can know that the man who I am on the internet is the man I am in the real life. And I'm just as flawed as I sound like I'm online. So, you know, it again, this world, we're all real here, right? Yeah, you're walking your talk is what you're doing. Yeah. And so, you know, and you guys aren't the only guys I've met. There's other people online I've actually met. But you don't know a man until you've spent time in his space. And you've seen him through all seasons twice. Now, let me go ahead and address Steve's point, because he makes an extremely valid point. When you when your target audience is people who were socially isolated. And you tell them to continue to isolate yourself. Don't meet people don't get together. Don't don't get in people's personal space and you isolate. All you're doing is you are making men or people. In fact, you're making them vulnerable. And we saw this with the famous Jim Jones poison Kool-Aid. We've seen this with other cults throughout the world, where one of the things they do they even do this with Intifa. Sargon of Akkad last year, did a 45 minute expose where BAM by any means necessary, the Intifa organization, they were actually doing cult conditioning on their people. And they were having them live in isolation under lockdown. So when you isolate these people, and you indoctrinate them, what happens is that if they don't have people around them that they can love who they know who love and respect them in return, they become very vulnerable to whatever you say. And the crazier things that you say sound normal to them because they are so off kilter, and they are completely off the reservation. Okay, I just I want to say one thing is I saw some in the chat room or brand old RJ and burn or whatever name is. Yeah, yeah. Let me let me let me let me go man mindset for one second. Excuse me, gentlemen. Oh, we burn. Let me tell you something, motherfucker. I get more pussy on my pinky than you can in the thought process, motherfucker. So I don't have problems with motherfucking women. Yeah, I mean, okay, I don't have no denial and anything because I wake up every day as a man. I don't make excuses. I don't point the finger and I don't blame. So maybe you need to cross the street and come over to my side, learn how to be a motherfucking man and start to tell me what I'm thinking. Look, man, you allowed to think what you want to think. But don't get mad at me because you can't be me, dude. Don't get mad at me because you struggle with women because daddy never pushed you on a swing, or maybe Uncle John touched you in the way where it was inappropriate. Don't get mad at me. But I respecting his his choices. I'm not here to tear him down. You haven't seen me be rude or anything like that. But I'm allowed to have a thought. God damn it. So what you think? And if you got a problem with me, you know where to find me, motherfucker. I'm sorry, guys, please continue. Yeah, yeah. Well, let me let me kind of dovetail that because I think this is important. Okay. The most important aspect about relationships people is that steel sharpened steel when you have disagreements. What you have is you have a competition of ideas and you have an opportunity to educate one another. So Steve educates me. I educate him. You know, we agree where we agree. We disagree where we disagree. But we understand that that mutual respect is more important than minor disagreements on issues. So I think that when it comes to that, a lot of guys out there look, I was going to do a video about this, but I think it's important to talk about this now. You know, if you read old classics, there's a book out there. It's called Pinocchio. We have a lot of guys online who are lost boys in the era of toys. And what I mean by that is is that these people come from broken homes, myself included, and you see a lot of these guys out there and what they're doing is they are promoting their own confirmation bias based on their own their own psychological damage rather than looking at proven facts, verifiable facts and observable reality. And that's the thing that is important. So when I involve myself in the red man group, when I involve myself with this group of gentlemen, it's because I notice that they don't always agree on certain things, but they're mature enough to understand that the disagreements are not more important than the ethics of the relationships they have. And when it comes to ethics and when it comes to values and when it comes to the support of men, these men stand firm, arm in arm, just like a goddamn Roman phalanx. And there isn't another community on the internet that does that because I I agree with you again, we don't have to agree. But yeah, I had to enter the day at the end of the day, I'm going to treat all men with respect, you know, right into the day, man. It doesn't doesn't matter how you feel. I listen, I respect how you feel. I just stay on my side of the street and stay in my lane. I respect you as a man. I respect what you're saying and all that other stuff. Even if I again, you're allowed to not agree with me, you know what I mean? And I respect exactly. That makes us men. We don't have to agree on things. As long as we keep respecting each other, that's all at the end of the day. Absolutely. Absolutely. And just so you know, too, we are modeling the behavior and I say you, I mean, the people watching, I mean, the panel knows this. And whether the panel is the three of us, whether it's Drew, whether it's George Bruno, we all understand this. But there's a lot of people out there, right? That, you know, they need, they need a framework to say, okay, I need some assistance with masculinity, because there aren't enough men raising their kids. Now, we may disagree as to why that is. But the reality is, is that the fact is, is that male multi-generational mentorship does not exist in families anymore as a general rule. Now, there are many families that have it. There are many rejects. The idea is probably, I think that's probably one of the main sociological reasons that the, that the man is fear itself exists. Yep. From whatever fucking group you're part of, make tabs or whatever. This whole thing forming, it's a result of that falling apart, extended families and the nuclear family and relationships and the sexual marketplace, they're falling apart at the seams. It's in freefall collapse today. This is like, you know, it's all fucking fucked up beyond belief. Yeah, fucked up beyond all recognition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And let's and the first Steve's point on your point, it is really good that each community in the man is fear sub community has ethical, strong men leading it. And it needs to be that way. And I think that's, I mean, that's what I've been going through in the red hook community and stuff like that recently. But DDJ did this like a year ago with TFM. Turflinging monkey is fucking nuts. As far as I'm concerned, as far as I've heard from a lot of people that look at his stuff. I know Dr. Sean T Smith was immediately concerned that he had a complete unilateral relationship with an inanimate object, a sex doll, not just a relationship, a marriage to it. It's like, this is way beyond, you know, some girl playing with a toy or some dude fucking a flesh light. This is this is this is fucking marriage to an object. This is like those crazy feminists who marry themselves, man. I've seen that news, you know, they walked on the aisle and they get married themselves like it's nuts. And that's well, he has like what over 100,000 YouTube subscribers. Yeah. Yeah. And then let me just say this to you. I want to make sure I'm real clear. I actually I actually, I don't have a problem with sex dolls. I don't have a problem with it, right? My issue is, is when you substitute an inanimate object for an interpersonal relationship, well, now you're diagnosable. Well, you're putting you're making her a Mrs. Man. You're putting your last name on a doll. Okay, this is the point I'm trying to make Anthony. Okay, he's got I guess 100,000 people following him. That's 100,000 individuals that, in my opinion, are lost that are going to go into the world feeling like the world owes them something. I'm not and again, I'm just talking about Turkey. Right. Well, that's why you see that's where I have the problem at because at that point, you're taking the responsibility from the man and you're and you're following the which you were saying DJ the Jim Jones and the doll to me is the Kool-Aid because it's no listen, if you want to use a flashlight, your hand or whatever you want to do to get your nut that I don't have a problem with that. But when you try to make that thing, your legacy or your last thing, you know, I am about the last names. I mean, a one, you know, I feel about that and that really bothers me because what what is doing to manhood is that and to me, I've always said this, you know, we always talk about the red pill and the matrix on other stuff. But one thing we never discussed are the smiths. We don't discuss that sometimes some of these guys out here are really working for women that are declawing and defanging our men, where a lot of these guys are trusting these guys, thinking that this guy is going to show me manhood. But what he's doing is is he's really playing for the other team by taking these boys away from that manhood. That's where I have the issue and stuff. Well, I think that's why D. DJ went to war with TFM last year. There's some unethical conducts from really sketchy as shit going on. But I think one of the big reasons, as I understand it, D. DJ can correct me if I'm wrong. But you know, TFM is like a cult of personality like it's serious. Well, let me let me let me be abundantly clear because because I know that like there were a lot of people out there that have reframed everything that I've said, right? They watch they watch the they watch the 30 minute video they watch the couple follow up videos. And and then what they did is they they acted as though those videos didn't exist. They acted as though the evidence presented in those videos, the screenshots in those videos, the communications in those videos didn't exist. Let me say something right now. When I wrote my book, the feminist lie was never about a quality hashtag show alert number one on Amazon, right? I've sold probably over 15,000 copies of that book since May of 2017. I had feminists trying to dox me left and right. I had feminists actually Amazon made a mistake when my book came out and they associated it with some white dude who was a tech author and feminists went after him thinking he was me. They called him some old white rat. They were racist to him. They were they were just pieces of shit. I contacted Amazon because I was like, holy shit, this poor guy, right? So he's writing textbooks that he's getting these feminists just witch hunting him. He's going to have his whole life destroyed. So they tried to dox me. Then when a bunch of socialist cuck white nationalists tried to infiltrate the McTown community back in late 2017, I did some videos about that and I exposed that I had people going after and I'll tell you what, man, these guys are are far more skilled than the feminists. These guys had me. I was temporary knocked off Twitch. They had me they had a strike on my channel. They went out and they did all this other bullshit and they tried to dox me for nine months. I had haters following me for nine months over that. Now this entire time TFM's viewpoint on this was doxing is bad. Doxing is bad. And this is like doxing for those people don't know. It's the internet version of rape because what happens is you get swatted. Tommy Sotomayor, he got false police reports called on him when they found out where he lived. All these other things. And so and I knew back in early 2018, number one, someone could dox me, but I also knew that depending on the way things move forward, I knew I was going to dox myself at some point. So when I finally made the decision to dox myself, two weeks later, some guy actually who had information that wasn't publicly available for two years, decided to make a video and go, oh, look, we got him. We doxed him. I'm like, dude, you're fucking two weeks late while you're down there like behind my sack. But the point is, is that TFM promoted that. And then what he did is one of the doxers, he made him a modernist server. And then I had another guy reach out to me. He was a YouTube content creator who told me and showed me that one of TFM's other discord mods doxed him. So this was a major concern for me because TFM had had such a strong stance against doxing before that what he was doing is not only was he victim blaming the man that got doxed, but in addition to that, he was, he was had doxers in his server that he knew had been doxers and he, and he supported them and he made those leaders in his server. That was number one. Number two, I was concerned about the psychological unhealthiness of having a male-female emotional bond with your doll. And again, I want to make sure that there's, there's, there's a split here because it's a hard line. I, I enjoy, you know, the idea of, of having a sex doll. I've never been with one, but I could see, you know, but I could see, I could see guys who could be part of that, right? And so I also see where that would create, that would stop a lot of problems. Like, listen, you know, if you're so ugly, you break the mirror of your house, you should probably get a sex doll. Okay. To be clear, too, there's, there's sex doll brothels in Europe now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me say, let me say, sex dolls are taken off. And, and, and the issue is that guys who, who, they do all the game things and they do whatever, you know, they're stuck in there, a quad in a wheelchair, that guy should probably get a sex doll. I'm just saying that male sex toys should not be shamed because female sex toys should not be shamed. But what I am saying is, and this is where I agree with Steve and Anthony is that you should not have a psychologically male to female emotional relationship with your sex doll. That's psychologically unhealthy. That's, that's, that's delusion. I agree. You know, if you have pride and ownership, right, you like to dress your doll, you like to make your doll look prettier, whatever that that's up to you. That's like a guy, you know, doing the same thing with his car, not something I'm doing, but you know, each to his own, right? So that, that to me is not a problem. But then on the top of that, when, when TFM was promoting social isolation, and he was promoting all this stuff, that was an issue to me because it and then on top of that, he was promoting gender war. He was saying, oh, it's going to be hockey mass time where all the men are going to control all the women and da, da, da, da. And, and, and can we pause on that hockey? Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Hockey mass time? So the idea was that it's certain at a certain point when men are discriminated against TFM was, was, was basically agitating for men to rise up violently. See, and, and they called it hockey mass time. And, and so while some of it was tongue in cheek, there were other issues there too. So like my viewpoint when it comes to the male-female gender relations is this, I don't believe anybody in the United States. And I say, and I take a uniquely American view. I don't believe anybody in the United States should have rights or privileges without the other. If you have a right, you have a responsibility. If you have a privilege, then, then both genders should have that privilege. Today in the United States, women have certain legal rights men don't have. And they have certain privileges men don't have. Now at the end of the day, such as being drafted into the military, women are not well, let's talk about it's not the draft by itself. I'm not listening. I don't want women in war. Jesus Christ, do I really want to fucking diversity hire and risk my life for a fucking diversity hire? Who, who is half as strong as me? Fuck no. No, the issue for me is, is that if a woman, if a man doesn't sign up for selective service, he is automatically barred from a federal job. He cannot get financial aid for school. And he can't vote. Okay. Those are those are huge disadvantages for men across the board. This has nothing to do with the draft by itself. It has to do with the consequences of the draft. Now let's take it to another example. When a woman gets pregnant, she can choose to abort the child. She can choose to abandon the child. She can choose to birth the child. She can choose what she has all the paternity rights in the world. And the man has no pre-paternity rights, especially if she trapped him with a child. That to me is a problem, especially when women have 25 different kinds of birth control and all men have her condoms. Okay, but well, okay. Okay, I want to jump on two things. Okay, the thing real quick or turfly if one may tongue and cheat, see that that's no more problem. Tong and cheek to him, people take him seriously. That's what I have. That's right. You're right. The next time. Yeah. So you him, maybe a joke people are gonna say, okay, he means it. Now, when now this is where the where we have to respectfully disagree, you're right. It's women's bodies. And as soon as there's a plus sign on that thing she peas on, your rights are over with. That's the automatic truth. But here's the thing. The thing is, is that you do not have to get her pregnant. You don't have to have unprotected sex. I always tell you these guys, protect your seed, protect your legacy. Do not have unprotected sex with the woman. Again, I'm not saying that, you know, things happen. Things do happen. I'm not saying that. But you got to understand the consequences. And that's being a man. If I have unprotected sex with a woman as soon as and this is the law, as soon as she is, is, what is it pregnant? My rights are gone. And that's the truth. That's the for now. For now, that's the truth. I think marriage used to be a solution to that back in the day. It wasn't as bad. But now that's gone away. And men are just kind of fucked. Well, I mean, I mean, listen, I think that yeah, and I don't hang on, hang on. I think this in the coming years and decades of America, this shit needs to change. You know, those are the rights now. And that shit is not fair. It's not just it's not American. There should be if woman can opt out of being a parent, that's a DDJ, in my opinion, saying a man should be able to opt out of being a parent too. So if you waive your rights to your child, then you waive, then you lose, you should be able to waive, then child or well, let's yeah, let's what is it? Child support, you know, if you don't pay that shit, then you have an arrest to your kid. Well, that sounds horrible, but I think that's best for children that's best for for America. Yeah, it makes women of consequences to which for now they're able to avoid by using the government to steal my money from a father and forcibly take it from him, no matter what, when he had no say, you know, once this happened about what happens to the baby. Well, and let's say this too, I mean, I don't want to dig too far in the weeds here because I mean, this is enough information we can have our own show on this and probably at some point we should. But what I am saying is is it, you know, because originally we were talking about, you know, the concerns about TFM. And the issue is that, you know, those those arguments at some level and you know, at some level are valid. And even if if Steve and I disagree, we understand that there is some validity and Steve is right, you have to mitigate your risk. I completely support that. My concern is is that because the the laws are changing, what is being agitated by TFM and certain other content creators is this idea of hockey mass time where what happens is that these men rise up and they become violent with their women. And to me, right there, I so here's here's my thought process. Okay, let's just look at it free from the moral issues for a second. And I say the moral issues I'm talking about, you know, well, I guess you have to look at them for the moral issues now that I think about. Let me say it another way. Okay, if your goal is to help men, then your goal is to keep men out of harm's way. Now we've part of keeping men out of harm's way is teaching them how to handle life storms. That's important. In other words, you know, you teach men how to protect themselves, you know, maybe own a gun, get in shape, whatever. And I'm not talking about teaching you how to protect yourselves against another man, but you know, against life, right? Guys who are physically fit, they live longer. If they injure themselves, they recover faster. And they injure themselves less guys who are not physically fit. They can fall off a curb and die because they're so frail. And that's the thing I think every part of the man is fear has done successfully is it's taught men how to avoid like legal entanglements and getting over by women. We're going to act. Some of them will act shady and fucking do us kind of sketchy fraudulent shit. I'm right. So known, you know, world or in the man is fear for accidentally or unknownly marrying prostitute. That has not happened since that time in my life. And I think hundreds of thousands of men that have seen that experience are going to avoid similar but probably not as retarded or ridiculous situations in their life. And the man is free does a good job of that all of it. Yeah. And I think what I'm trying to say, though, is that, you know, the goal of most men, most male content creators, men in the man is fair, the content creators, the goal of these content creators is to help men. It's to protect men and it's to make their lives better. Okay. So the issue that I had and I've explained this publicly before, but I'm going to say it again. If you're telling men to commit unprovoked violence, there and specifically against let's just say hashtag, not all women, but against certain women. And you're teaching men, look, when it's hockey mask time, you're going to go to war. Okay. When you're teaching men that and you're saying we're going to have our gender war, here's what's going to happen when you take it to its logical conclusion. Number one, women will resist you. Number two, men who love those women will resist you. So now what happens is that when you go hockey mask time, not only are you putting in yourself and your allies in danger, you're also endangering other men who disagree with you. And the ultimate way to know that your argument is not the correct one is when you devolve into unprovoked violence. And that to me is a problem because how are you telling these men to sacrifice their lives to enslave women? How are you telling me? Number one, that enslavement of any kind is ethical and number two, how are you telling me that these men who are going to potentially die is a good thing? The only thing you should die for is your family and your country. You shouldn't die because you can't get your dick wet because we tell you something in 2019. It's a goddamn salmon run out there. I'm not that physically fit. Let me tell you something, you know, I can get laid if I need to. It's not a fuck it's not rocket science. It's catch and release all day every day. So why are the you know, and again with the advent of male sex toys, there are a lot of there are a lot of options out there for men. Some I agree with some I don't. I'm just saying that, you know, resorting to unprovoked violence to me, it violates the ethics of any man who claims he is going to help another man. There is no way that anybody is going to explain to me that going outside and picking a fight because you can't get laid is ethical is right, or even makes fucking sense. That's where I got some of the issues again. These these guys are these guys are using these young boys for their own women will what they want done. And that's where I got the problem at because men don't do that kind of stuff. But unfortunately, these young men, they are they are so lost that they will follow just about anybody or anything that says, you know, if they come up like, okay, it'll be met towel today. It could be pantyhose tomorrow. I mean, anybody could come up with a name and come up with ideology and then prey on somebody that's weak. And like you said, and that weak person is going to believe that Wow, this guy is real. So maybe I need to go ahead and go out there and kill somebody because he says to kill. And that's where I get the problem with some of these things because that's not teaching these boys manhood. Well, now defense, I think this is why the mctown community. There's been conflict that DJs has been trying to lead the cleanup on the calm doomsday Jesus for a reason, right? And that's he did identify T.F. who plucking monkey as a very toxic negative element of their community. And it's even more serious I think what's happened in the repel community is that it's let me say something it's it's it's way more serious because you have you have organized doctors, you know, many of these Spurgs in the mctown community. I mean, I have screenshots where they have a private server where a lot of these content creators coordinate their attacks on other people and they direct their followers to make these attacks. Okay. If they could compete in the marketplace of ideas, they would they wouldn't resort to doxing. They wouldn't resort to online harassment. They wouldn't resort to all these different things. They would be doing what me and Steve the Dean Williams are doing where that is man to man respectfully agree where we agree and disagree where we disagree and not take it personally and not have to worry about getting some vagisil. So you know what I'm saying? I mean, that's that's the reality, right? Steel sharp and steel. And that's the point that that used to be what the mctown community was about. And when you look at a lot of content creators, there are a lot of writers for return to Kings, for example, there's a lot of guys who've been around a long time. And I guarantee you that almost each and every one of those guys has admitted that they have gotten some of their belief system or the foundations of where they've gone. They've gotten that from the mctown community. I mean, shit. Look at Rolo Tomasi, half of his content is based on what he's seen other mctown content creators do. I talked about, you know, extended family and multi generational male mentorship. He ripped that off immediately and I confronted him about that in private and he just blew it off. I'm like, yeah, I mean, and again, we're, you know, we're not we'll hear me out, though. We're not kicking cucks today, right? Let's just focus on the content of mctown. I mean, I don't want to get retarded. And I don't want to anybody ever say that I treat the retarded with anything less than respect. Well, to clarify here, though, when TFM and Rolo were on the same red man group episode, it was like Rolo, Rich Cooper, Don of Ensharp, Shaun T. Smith, and I think poopling monkey. Rolo and TFM were going at each other, accusing each other both of stealing shit. And honestly, they're both so fucking wack. I don't even know which one is stealing from the other one. But I know that I'm pretty sure in the video you'll see them both of them accusing each other of this kind of issue or something like that. So it's, you know, I've, you know, I've seen Rolo accuse that stuff before before I even knew him. He's been accused. Well, and in TFM's defense, TFM is probably right. TFM has been making video content for years and years. He's got well over 2,000 videos. And that's, and that's just on his own channel. That's not including the collaborations he's done with other people. Yeah. But as much as I hate Rolo, like he would just say he's been writing since 2002 and so swap and shit, he would just fire back that that was the thing is like it was a spur war. Well, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I mean, listen, how many, how many guys are you going to take his PUA's who concealed the fact they were married when writing for a PUA site? Really? You know, I mean, again, I'm not, I don't want to kick the retarded right now. Let's go back to the guy versus the guy who had a wedding with a sex doll or something. Well, sure. Sure. Like I said, you know, it's it's like internet bumpfights. I get it. I'm just rolling. It's like a bump. Yeah, it's an internet bump fight. I get it. I get it. Right. Everybody wants to see it, but everybody's like God sucks. Right. I get it. I get it. It's like spectacle. Right. You know, Jerry Springer level bullshit. So but my point is, is that like if you're a content creator, if you are a voice that people listen to, if you are a public personality and you publicly say, I am here to help men. I am here to try to make men better through what I perceive as the way forward. And you are putting men in harm's way, whether it be emotionally, psychologically or even physically. That's a fucking problem. Yeah. And when you promote hatred, that's a problem. And I want to make sure something else is abundantly clear too. Because if you look at my channel, I do call out narcissistic horse. I do call out manipulators. I do call that out. But I don't call it out because I hate these people. I call it out to warn other men who may not have had the experience or the knowledge or the wisdom that I've gotten or even the mentorship that I've received. It's not to hate these women. It's to educate men to avoid these women. And let me tell you something else. I also coined a term in the Manisphere called the red pill blind spot. You don't trust anything. You cannot verify. And there are a lot of guys out there who claim that they're red pill. Oh, yeah, I guess he's red pill because he's got the he's got the union required beard. And he's got a shaved head. You know, DDJ is really important because there's there's real research and science and yeah, it's not just the red the red pill blind spot. That's your way of saying it's a community specific way of saying that men have an in group and out group bias. So someone enters the Manisphere and they say feminism sucks and red pills awesome and you know, fuck these the feminine imperative and shit. Men automatically trust these men because feminism is so pervasive in Western culture that they see that as out group and in group like all this guys on our side fuck those feminists and these other SJW losers who hate and who legitimately hate men and they're toxic and they they do all this fucked up shit like me too, right? Yeah, it doesn't make you automatically. I agree with you, DDJ. That does not make you automatically trustworthy just by attacking feminism and saying you're pro man. That's just that can just be bullshit. Well, and there are a lot of I think a lot of creators in our community are full shit at a high level. Well, take these guys down and I agree with you because what ends up happening is is what they're doing is is they've taken the talking points and they've turned them into platitudes and they're sloganeering and they do the same thing like feminists men do, right? So I think that when it comes to those types of things, that's a real problem. And it's funny too, because like I always say and I put this on my my Facebook community or in my social media community, including YouTube, I said, you know what, I don't have haters. I have followers who hate they disagree or the hate they agree with me. And what I mean by that is that you look at these people who are by biggest critics specifically on my channel and some of the things I've said, six months after I say those things they're saying the same fucking thing. So so you see this all the time. And and and I'm sure Steve Vadine is seeing this. I know that you've seen it Anthony. And I know that there are people who speak at 21 convention, you see this and I know that there are guys in the big town community who've been making videos for a couple of years. They've seen the same thing. So you have to understand that like when it comes to these people that are out there, that red pill blind spot, that that automatic naive trust that wow, this guy says something I agree with. So he must be amazing. And then you'll find out that this guy's got 15 channels included in a feminist channel. And all he's trying to do is figure out which one takes off because he wants to be a professional YouTuber. That's a problem. Guys, we got to start wanting to show down a little soon today. I guess the nose going on. I don't mean enough for you tomorrow. Got to go do something for that. Yeah, for the first time. I'm excited. However, before we wind the show down, I wanted to see, you know, it's open to the panel, but especially DJ, I think because he's, you know, so involved in that community. What's the future of the McDowell community with regards to the wider hemisphere? Is it going to get healthier? Is it going to get fall apart? Like the pickabotch community, pickabotch community, for example, is kind of like it's very loosely organized these days. We're, well, the good news is this, um, and to begin with, we have McDowell guys attend the convention in real life who claim that they're like full McDowell. But they come up. Yeah, I've actually, I've actually met some of them when they found out that I was part of the 21 convention and they found out I was part of Red Man Group. I had guys reach out to me behind the scenes and go, oh yeah, I've gone to 21 convention five years in a row and I know the guys card carrying McDowell. Okay, so absolutely. I think that the good news is this. I think the good news is that the word is getting out. And, you know, we see content creators now that are going back to McDowell 1.0, like, like Coach Greg Adams, you know, we're seeing a lot of guys that are just they're talking about the McDowell community. There's a lot of African American men now that are going into McDowell content. And then you've got people that have been around for a long time, like Terence Popp and you know, Stardust and even though there's a lot of guys out there like myself, like, I mean, you're not going to see a lot of, you know, MGTOW branding on my channel. But there are a lot of us out there who maybe we don't always identify with the brand publicly. But what ends up happening is is that we're still sharing the same wisdom. And you see these guys building bridges. And so the good news is that you're watching the extremists go away. But I will say this. There is a huge issue and I'm not trying to make this a segue at all. But there is a huge issue in online content now in social media, where social justice warriors, you know, big tech agents of foreign countries including China and the European Union, they are trying to silence free speech across the hemisphere. And I think the reason is, is because what they're doing is, is they're fomenting a sociological info war against masculinity. Because if they can emasculate all men in the United States, then it's easier to take over the United States without a shot fired. And we see this with the United States military, because the military is having a hard time recruiting qualified candidates because they're not healthy, they're unphysically fit, they're emasculated, or you got these guys who the only reason they're going to the military is to get a sex change paid for by the government. So, you know, there's a lot of issues right now in social media, because these are conversations that big tech overlords do not want anybody to have. And so, I would suggest anybody who's out there, who's watching this and those types of things, start looking at like places like BitShoot, Minds, Gab, in addition to Twitter, in addition to Facebook, in addition to YouTube. I'm not saying abandon any of these things because the broader your voice, the better it is. But what I am saying is, is that when somebody goes to silence your voice, you at least have options. That's why I created the MissAndreaToday.com website so that when they finally take me off of YouTube, which I expect that at least people will know where they can get my content and how they can get ahold of me. That said, I think that barring those major censorship concerns and those major foreign interference concerns, I think the manosphere is getting healthier. And I think that a lot of communities are taking out the trash. And I think that we see a lot of new voices in the community that are making sense. Oh, hey, I was just playing around with the camera guy. Sorry about that. Yeah, good, good speech to Jim. I got a lot of shit. Don't do drugs. Stay in school as he's asleep. He's like, Yeah, fuck this guy. Here we go. Hashtag show alert. So guys, we have the 21 convention coming up here, final event of the decade and of the year, third of the year. And it's gonna be fucking awesome. The tickets are still on sale. We've been selling some almost every day lately. It's been fucking, fucking dope. We've got about 130 guys coming out to the event. That's gonna be our second biggest event out of 18 in our entire history coming up soon. October 24th, the 2017 2019 Orlando, Florida. You can still save 300 bucks on your ticket off the door price. And that's going off another day, you know, one day, 11 hours to tomorrow night, Sunday night. I'll be there. Steve, the Dean Williams will be there a whole bunch of speakers like Elliott Hulse, Defend Mollinu, Jack Donovan, Ed Latimore, AJ Cortez, George Bruno. I mean, that shit keeps going and going. It's an amazing lineup of speakers. You guys got to be there. Get your tickets now. You have free tactical soap when you get to the event. And it's gonna be fucking awesome. Hope to see you guys there. And you can meet us, you know, meet the Redman group. We'll film at least two to three episodes in real life of the show. They're the best episodes we have of the year. They're super fun. Steve was a host in Poland recently at the Warsaw Poland 21 convention. Super awesome episodes coming out soon on the channel. You'll see those recorded and their premier live on the channel. Well, that's it. That's it for today's episode. I want everyone to go visit and follow, you know, TheManMindMindset.com. You can follow Steve on Twitter at TheManMindset. I believe that's the exact URL. Yes, sir. DDJ is on Twitter now too. He's handled those like Bobby Lewis, something that's kind of confusing. But go to missandrytoday.com and his YouTube channel, missandrytoday.com. I'll link it in the comments. Okay. Yes, you get free tactical soap with your $2,500 ticket. And then we run the best event in the world for men and make zero apology for it. You could have bought tickets for like way cheaper, like six months ago. You gotta stay on the ball, man. Yes, sir. Stay on it. Well, and let me, and let me say this about the 21 convention for those that don't know. I've actually looked under the hood. You know, Anthony and I have done a lot of things behind the scenes. Anthony's kind of opened up and given me a real transparent look at what the 21 convention is and how it runs. The nuts and bolts, the P&Ls, the whole thing. The money that you spend on this convention goes toward you. Okay. Nobody's, nobody is, is, is, is taking advantage of you. Nobody is, I mean, this money goes right back to you. It goes right back into the event. This is not something where he's trying to do a get-rich quick scheme. He's been doing this for over a decade. It's an extremely successful event. Even if I don't necessarily agree with everything everybody says, not everybody's gonna agree with me. I'm not worried about that. It's a healthy event. And this is, this is extremely important. So when you invest in your future by going to the 21 convention, you need to understand that when you get there, you get a return on investment immediately. Oh, fuck yeah. Yeah. And I want to say about that, guys, from, from just being a part of this. And again, I'm not getting paid for this. You know, I keep things 1000 with you motherfuckers. And I'll be real with y'all. The experience of the 21 convention is like no other because for some of you guys out there who go to conventions and stuff like that, the speaker will speak. And then all of a sudden he goes away into the darkness and you never get to see him. You never get to talk to him. You just see him on stage. With this is once the speakers get done speaking, you can ask questions. Then when, then when he's done speaking, you can then talk to him. Ask questions and rub elbows. That's just one part of it. The next part is everybody is treated like, like we're family. You, when you go there, they, they, nobody feels like they're above you just because we're speakers. I mean, we're better than you. We treat you like family. And the workshops, the workshops is self. Now for me, I got in trouble by a bunch of bitches because I was cussing, I was cussing so loud in Orlando, they had, they had to silence my ass real quick. But the workshops are none like anything else because they're private. You get to let your hair down in a group and you get to talk. Then you have the dinners and that's what I'm saying. It's layer after layer after layer. So you get your money's worth and then some, that's I just wanted to say about that because if you, if you haven't had the experience, it is, it is none like no other not to mention just the, the red men group shows that are there as well. So I just, I just wanted to say that a one. That's all I want to say. Steve, I appreciate you keeping a real man 1000% on all that. You know, per what DDJ and Steve were talking about, I've been working at perfecting this convention for about 13 years now. My entire adult life since I was 17 years old. They are the best events in the world for men. I make no apology for that. And there's nothing else even like it. There's other events for men that are really good, but this one is like absolutely top level amazing. It's a gathering of kings. Yes. And I've worked my ass off to do that and perfected my craft and what's happened perfected it, but I've worked to perfect it and I've mastered putting on events for men like this. And you know, the ticket is an experience. The ticket is not just the speeches. If you don't want to pay for the ticket, you don't want to attend, don't attend. The speeches will eventually publish for free as they have been reviewed by hundreds of thousands, in some cases, millions. We have everything for speeches now that have broken one million views and one talk from Nick Sparks that broke two million views. So if you don't want to pay for the speeches, don't pay for them. I don't care. You can just watch them on YouTube for free to have to wait a while or join 21 University to get early access. In the meantime, if you want an amazing experience and you want to change your life instead of the next decade of your life, the entire 2020s and the next years, you have a lot of incredible speakers. It's a really rare opportunity where they gather together like this. It doesn't happen anywhere else in the world except at the 21 convention. And then you get to meet hundreds of men like yourself who are, you know, they're Migtau, they're red pill, they're pickup artists, whatever the fuck they are, fathers are not single. We have guys attending who are 19 up to like 50, 60, 70 years old. The age range, demographics, the races, religions, everyone's welcome like if you're fucking, if you will come in wearing a pink pussy hat, you know, you're going to be looked at a little funny to be honest. Well, yeah, and you might go out on four wheels as the EMT take you away. You're going to feel out of place, you know, just to put it lightly. But if you actually care about masculinity and you care about men, you care about fatherhood and you care about the future of this country and of the hemisphere and of all these issues that we talk about in the show, on this topic of Mictile. Gentlemen, look forward to seeing you soon. Peace out. Peace. Take care.