 Good evening. I'm Gene Bergman. I'm City Councilor for Ward 2 here in Burlington, and this is the Burlington Progressive Show. And I want to thank you again for coming and watching. We've been doing this now for about seven, eight months, and the purpose of this is not only to talk about what Burlington Progressives are doing, but also to integrate the work that we're doing into the work that is happening out in the street, in the community. My theory of change is that government is a piece, but it is not the only or maybe even the primary piece. The most important thing is when we've got an active and involved citizenry that works independently and also with elected officials to get things done. And I'm really pleased to have had people for police accountability to talk about the ballot item on police oversight, to have Representative Kate Logan and City Councilor Joe McNeill to talk about houselessness, the houselessness crisis in the city and the state. We've had the Progressive Caucus here to just talk about general city affairs. I've been really pleased to have Public Assess Institute talk about public progressive taxation in terms of municipal taxes. And the last show that we had was with UVMMC's support staff, workers who were engaged in a contract struggle. I'm very happy that we were part of the struggle to get them justice. And tonight I am really excited to be talking with Jim Dumont and Nick Parasympiary. Excuse me, Nick, for having just botched that to talk. The title of the show is In the Shadow of McNeill, Thermal Energy Networks and Other Alternatives to Decarbonize. We do this for one very basic reason. We're in a climate crisis and the human species, us included, are burning the planet. And for ourselves and our elders not only our grandkids are three and two and one year olds, but their babies. We got to do everything that we can to stop that. And on a specific basis, and this is where it's in the title, In the Shadow of McNeill, we are burning a lot of biomass down at McNeill. Nick will talk about the carbon impact of that. And there are proposals to have about a 45 to 50 million dollar project to pipe steam up to UVMMC. And we'll get to talking about that. But I want to start with you, Jim. You're an attorney, been involved in environmental activism for decades. And why don't you just sort of talk to us about what you're doing and about it in relationship to these big climate change issues. And then we'll try to segue into the real subject of this, which is thermal energy networks. Sure. Thanks, Gene. As Gene said, I've been working on environmental issues for most of my life. And about a year ago, I learned from Debbie New, who is a South Burlington resident, about thermal energy networks. Thermal energy networks are an incredible alternative to what we're doing now. And they're in use all around the country and in other parts of the world. It's a proven technology that we need to have here in Vermont. Thermal energy networks basically means using geothermal boroughs and capturing waste heat from other activities could be waste heat from a hockey rink, waste heat from supermarket refrigerators. So maybe, Jim, while you're going over this, we can get this slide put up on the screen so people can, there you go. This is a PowerPoint that Jared Rodriguez, who you might want to explain who he is, has put together. And I know that I got this from you. So this sort of begins to explain that. And we can go back, we put that on there, and then maybe we'll switch back in. Sure. Go ahead. Go deeper into it a page or two. So we'll talk somewhere about thermal energy networks. This is all about thermal energy networks. So you tell me, okay, let's just stop there and let's get into it. Basically, thermal energy networks use water, not gas. They use water at about 55 degrees. That's piped underground between buildings, between geothermal bore holes, and it's used to provide heating and cooling. And it uses ground sourced heat pumps instead of air sourced heat pumps. So the ground sourced heat pumps are about five times more efficient than air sourced heat pumps. So when you heat your home with a ground sourced heat pump, you use about a fifth of the electricity that you use when you're heating your home with air sourced heat pumps. And the ground source is what? Is water that is circulated among buildings in the community underground, year round, and it stays, you know, 52 degrees, 55 degrees, summer and winter. So it's pretty easy to understand that when you're, instead of using an air conditioner or an air sourced heat pump, which is exchanging heat or coolness with the atmosphere, you're exchanging heat or coolness with water, that's 52 degrees. So when it may be 20 below outside in a Burlington winter, but that water is still going to be about 52 degrees. So what you're starting with is much warmer, and also the physics of exchanging heat with a liquid are much better than the physics of exchanging heat with a gas. And so, and the reverse works in the summer. You can use these for air conditioning and cooling homes, and it's much more efficient than an air conditioner. It uses much less electricity than an air conditioner. So this is such, it saves so much energy, and it's so reliable, and it's so safe because it's water that it's spreading all across the country. Last year, it's about a year and a half ago, a bipartisan effort in the state of New York led to a passage of a statute that the governor signed promptly into law that requires every electric utility and every gas utility in Vermont. In New York. I'm sorry, in Vermont. I'm sorry, in New York, to start working as the thermal energy, have at least one pilot thermal energy network. And it was such a bipartisan effort that the bill passed the New York State Senate unanimously. So Senate districts in upstate New York, which went overwhelmingly for Trump, their representatives voted for this. So let's, Jordan, if we can get this slide, I think it is page three up here. And it talks about here, the steps to resource efficient decarbonization include, in other words, the steps that we're going to do this include. And the first thing that it's got is maximize efficiency in energy savings. Perhaps you could just sort of chat about that. And if you need to see something closer for our young eyes, here it is over here on the computer. So this PowerPoint was prepared by Jared Rodriguez, who's an engineer, who's an expert in building decarbonization. He's based in New York, and he was instrumental in passing the New York statute that the New York Senate passed unanimously and the governor then signed. And so he's prepared this. And what he points out is the first thing you need to do is take the low hanging fruit, which is make sure your buildings are as insulated as possible and as efficient as possible. That's the lowest hanging fruit. And then once you've done that, the next low hanging fruit is thermal energy networks. So, I mean, that really does require us to be looking at what we have currently and doing that deep dive for the energy efficiency that what our existing buildings are doing and then just investing in them. Maybe it is for bigger commercial places and we'll get into UVMMC, but they have an old campus. It may be that retiring certain facilities or really doing major substantial renovations. Right. So you mentioned the word campus and what Mr. Rodriguez can point out and others who are experts in this, and I'm not. I'm just acting as a citizen. The experts will point out that this is really easy to do on campuses because it's being done on college campuses across the country. And with the college campus, you have heating and cooling. You can capture waste heat from one kind of building and use it to heat another kind of building. And the one that I know the most about is Colorado Mesa University, where they've been doing this for several years and they've saved millions and millions of dollars in heating and cooling. And that's a place where it gets cold in the winter and hot in the summer, like Vermont, and they've saved so much money on energy. They've reduced tuition. It's extraordinary what this technology holds for us. I think we have a slide about it later in this. Talk about the waste heat recovery aspect of this. Sure. So it could be a sewage treatment plant. There's a special technology that harvest the heat from sewage treatment plants. So not necessarily just the methane or whatever. I guess it would be methane that's done, but this is something else. It's completely separate from that. You used closed loop piping so that there's no contact between the sewage and the water that is circulated through buildings and homes. The pipes are adjacent. The pipe, the technology extracts the heat from the sewage, but there's no connection between the water of the piping and the sewage. And you harvest that tremendous amount of heat that right now is largely being pumped out into Lake Champlain and the Winooski River in the case of Burlington. That's all waste heat. We're just pouring into the environment. You collect that heat in the pipes and then you distribute it to homes and businesses, in this case in Burlington. So it can be from sewage treatment plants, which has been doing, being done elsewhere. It can be from the refrigerator units at a grocery store, which right now they dump enormous amounts of waste heat into the atmosphere. Why? We can capture that and use it. Part of this technology is geothermal boreholes, but it's a mistake to think of this as just geothermal boreholes. It's part of a system that uses waste heat and the boreholes. And if you have lots of waste heat, you can actually store it in the boreholes, in the rocks or earth that surround the boreholes. Instead of having to create a battery, for example, or in having this huge bank of batteries which has its own issues. Right. And since the boreholes act as a battery for the waste heat and you're not converting heat to electricity and then back into heat, it's still heat and you use it when you need it. So we've got a waste treatment plant in Burlington that's on the central waterfront right next to Perkins Pier. And the closest community that is there is the King Street neighborhood, which is actually subject to serious environmental racism as a result of the way that we've constructed our highway system. And that is the fight around the Champlain, so-called Champlain Parkway, that hopefully we will finish by having a railroad enterprise project that will not dump all the traffic into the neighborhood. Very important environmental justice piece. But is that something that you think, you know, is that close enough? So if Mr. Rodriguez were here, he would say you need an engineer to actually look at what's on the ground, what's underground, what the heat sources are, and then give you an engineering report on what's feasible and what the cost would be. So every one of these projects will need an engineer to do the planning. But having said that, the experience around the country is it's very successful, low cost, reliable, and safe. Well, let's try to find some examples. You were talking about Mesa, so we're just gonna and here Jordan, there's this one right here. It's just an example, is that right? Yes. So what is that showing? Well, this is an example that Mr. Rodriguez uses to show in an urban environment how even within a building, there are heat sources that you can use elsewhere in the building. So instead of having your air conditioners dump your waste heat into the atmosphere, you harvest it because other parts of the building need heat. One part of the building needs cooling, one part needs heat, and you keep it within the building and reuse it rather than using electricity for any of those purposes. So New York is mandating a pilot project. In every gas utilities district and every electric utilities district, it's happening all over the state of New York. And this could implicate building codes, standards, right? Because in order to do this, buildings have to be built in a way that's going to accommodate them because you need the HVAC systems. Well, I'm not an engineer, but from what I've seen, because we're dealing with water, the code issues are pretty easy. We're piping, not even boiling hot water, not steam hot water, it's 52 degree water. So it's really compatible with human use. But you make a good point because economically, it's much easier to do this when you're building a building for the first time, whether it's a residential community, commercial building, it's much more efficient to install this then retrofitting an existing building. And that's a big issue down at UVMC. To sort of wrap up this introduction to the subject, H242 is in the legislature. It's in house energy and natural resources. The Vermont legislature, okay. And H242 is modeled on the New York bill, but it has two important differences. The New York bill mandated that every gas utility and electric utility get into this business. And I will say the utilities and the unions all supported this because, and the environmental community all supported it because they saw that this is a way to get skilled workers, high paid skilled workers, usually union workers, into jobs that were green jobs instead of losing their jobs when natural gas is no longer acceptable. It keeps those jobs, they have the same skills largely to do, use largely the same skills as an existing gas business, but it's not gas anymore. So the one difference is the Vermont bill authorizes the PUC to recognize, say, Green Mountain Power or Vermont Gas as a thermal energy network utility, but it does not require any utility to go through this process. It's entirely optional with the utilities. That's one major difference. The second is, they have to opt in, they have to opt in, exactly. The second is this bill says that a city or a city sewer department, a city water department, or a nonprofit homeowners association, or it could be a mobile home park ownership association, any of those groups can go to the PUC and say, okay, we want to do this, and the PUC can authorize it. Almost like a community solar project. It's exactly like community solar. Okay. Yes. And that's the New York bill doesn't didn't do that. So we're broadening it from utilities to saying anybody can get into this business. And the utility model is really useful to get this started because the utility model means that your upfront costs, and this is, once you build these, they're almost no costs. It's all the capital to get it built. Once you, if you're using a utility model, you get your guaranteed that your capital expenditure will be repaid over time from the ratepayers. Yeah. Under the supervision of the public utility commission to make sure the rates are fair. So that's the basic model of H242. It's had lots of support. Representative Stebbins from Burlington has been highly supportive, and we're hoping it will make it off the wall and through both houses this year. That would be great. I believe that we have some buildings at the electric department named after a relative of hers because I think that she comes from a long line of BED people. And I was talking to you earlier today about the green energy times, which I find to be very helpful. And it's got an article saying that we don't need as much energy as we thought. It's on this this month. It's at the co-op in other places on page 13. And they talk about the import of having sources of power and light, so to speak, thermal and electric, that are close so that you're not losing all of the power through the distribution lines and also just the inefficiencies of the burning process. So this is a way to do that. And let's just, before we're going to turn to Nick, not to worry, Nick, we're here for you, is let's talk. So on the screen, just as examples for people, we have something like right here in Burlington, I see. So it's not some crazy out of the area thing. It's not just what's happening on the moon. It's happening here in Burlington, right? And then if we go to the next one, there's something in, is that Ontario? And that's a hospital center. They may be a newer facility than what we have here and we'll have to work on since it went in in 2017. And then there's another hospital, obviously not as old as what was the old Mary Fletcher, but 2009 that's a hospital in Elgin, Illinois. I think Princeton University is on the slide deck, somewhere. Next is Colorado Mesa. And that's, the next one was the Colorado Mesa. And probably earlier up is a Princeton. Do you have something to say? So Princeton did a study and what they determined is, I don't, let me distract you, just keep talking. Princeton is a vast sprawling campus and they're converting the entire campus to thermal energy networks. Okay. The entire campus and they're in the midst of that right now and here's the slide deck on it. We estimate that 20% of the energy we create never makes it to the building since it's lost into the ground. So Princeton really studied this and they found out they're going to save money as well as massive amounts of energy and emissions avoidance by doing this. So it's, what's great about these thermal energy networks is there are no losers. We can argue about McNeil and are there winners and losers there, but in general the concept of thermal energy networks only has winners. There are no losers. We just need to do it. Well, there you go. I mean, I think that the key will be the commitment to invest, the commitment to make the changes that we have necessary. Nick, we have left you out. I'm so sorry that... No, it's been a fascinating discussion. I'm glad to be here and to have heard more about thermal energy networks. So you're award three resident and you've been active on climate change stuff for a long time. Why don't you just introduce yourself to folks. I've been doing exclusively environmental law since the mid-90s and I started working on climate issues in 2006. I've worked for a specialized unit at the Justice Department for six years and I also spent four years at the largest non-profit environmental law firm in the country, Earth Justice, as well as time in Vermont State Government. So you are a resident with some particular expertise that perhaps those of us who are elected officials and have positions where we need to decide things should be paying attention. And the title of this is actually In the Shadow of McNeil and that's because of both the biomass issue and the... Let's see, you might want to come on to here. We've got a little slide presentation that maybe we can get up on there. Jordan, we'll get there. There we go. Let's close down this other one if we could. Maybe we know... Yeah, let me just try to close that. Can we close that down and we get this one up? All the technical things... I'm a lot out. I'm sorry to say. Maybe we just maximized that. Maybe we'll try to maximize that. There we go. Look at that. See the power of collective action that worked right in front of us. Thank you and you can manage the slides. Why don't you talk to us? So the McNeil power plant burns wood chips that are harvested from forests in Vermont and New York and it burns the wood chips to generate electricity. It's the largest electricity generator in the state and it's also the single largest stationary source of greenhouse gas emissions in the state and that's why it's concerning. It's owned 50% by Burlington Electric Department and Burlington Electric is also the operator. I live in the shadow of the plant. I have lived there since 1987, raised my family there. I see it many times in the course of the day and I hear it. I mean to be quite honest, I think as a power plant it's been a decent neighbor to me and they had really worked hard to fix a number of the issues like the ash that was flying from their waste piles but that took a lot of work. I know that Jim you were involved in early. They had to spend a lot of money that they didn't expect to do enclosures for the unloading of the chips because most of them come from by rail and this is good because the chip dust was just flying into the neighborhood before that so. And the smell. And the smell, yes as Peter Frayne of CCTV fame in part wrote about low those many years ago and I'm happy to say that the smell issue has been taken care of but I divert. I digress actually and divert only because I'm a neighbor and this is my neighborhood so. So it started operation in 1984 and it seemed like a good idea to a lot of people at the time although I know Jim you tried to prevent it from operating and you seem to have a lot of foresight because our scientific understanding of burning biomass has really advanced since then and we now know that burning wood to generate electricity emits more carbon dioxide per unit of energy produced than any fossil fuel including even coal and that's why continued operation of the McNeil plant is a concern. The Biden administration has proposed that nationwide we move to zero carbon emitting sources of electricity by 2035 that's in 12 years from now. However rather than have a conversation about whether and when we might close down the McNeil plant instead we're having a conversation about expanding it by building what's called the district energy system which involves extended collecting steam from the plant building a steam pipe a mile and a half to UVM Medical Center and providing steam to the hospital through the plant. Well let's get into the critique a little bit later like next after I ask you to just preview what your thoughts are in terms of that conversation that we should be having now about what I consider to be a just transition in the effort to decarbonize something that takes care of the people who are working at the plant because it's essential that if we're going to deal with climate change that we don't exacerbate the inequalities that already exist and that the workers shouldn't be made to pay twice pay on the job front and in the what will they will clearly pay in the climate front just like poor black folk and brown folk have to pay throughout the country in terms of the environmental racism that that exists so maybe just sort of preview and then we'll get into more of the mechanic go back to the mechanics and then maybe come back to this as well but I just wanted to get you. We definitely need a just transition both for the workers in the forestry industry who might be impacted if we end up taking down less fewer trees and also we need to be concerned about burlington electric employees whose services might not be needed if the plant were to be decommissioned so and part of this also is not necessarily about managing forests but it's it's really about burning right of it so that forestry products that continue to store what was sequestered carbon that's still. Right I'm not suggesting that we should put an end to logging and we need you know responsible logging to continue to supply very important needs for example for furniture etc and as you mentioned when you take down trees and turn them into lumber that's used for you know building buildings or making furniture a portion of the carbon from those trees is sequestered in the product what what we're saying the people I work with are saying is that we should not be taking trees down for the purpose of burning them which puts carbon dioxide into the air immediately and it's really not necessary to do that because we have alternatives now that can much more cleanly produce electricity for the grid without the carbon emission problems. If you'd like to talk about that that would be great. I mean Burlington Electric is always trying to make a comparison between burning wood and burning gas and actually burning wood is worse it emits more carbon dioxide than burning gas but we really should at this point in time so the whole question of the life cycle and the fact that well you're going to be growing trees this is good and then that's how it becomes carbon neutral really the the problem with that argument has to do with the timeframes that we're dealing with am I am I right on that? Well that is a way to look at it I mean that's my simple way of looking at it yeah let me pull up a couple slides to try to explain that yeah so can we get that yeah so this is Burlington Burlington's electrics theory is that when you burn wood magically all the carbon dioxide is is instantaneously absorbed by the trees but if you burn fossil fuels it just goes up into the air and contributes to climate change this is junk science the trees did we just lose everything the trees what do I need to do I don't know go forward and back well just keep talking just so the trees can't tell where the carbon dioxide came from they absorb carbon dioxide from biomass plants they absorb it from fossil fuel plants what we should be doing is moving towards more wind and solar power and in fact and this geothermal network and the geothermal network well that's not for electricity generation but that's for supplying heat the buildings of course I mean I got an electric heat pump you know it's a cold air heat pump that you know is going to run on electricity and so we need to have electricity so we got to pay for that but if the geo if the yeah the thermal energy networks don't require that or you don't require as much of that then all of a sudden what we've got is as the you know the climate chain you know the the green news here whatever this thing is called we don't need as much energy as we thought because we're actually capturing the energy that we are already creating so right yeah the thermal energy networks can can serve to reduce the amount of electricity that we need right and you know that's really important because we're we're trying to electrify a lot of things and that's going to require you know more power generation from clean sources like wind and solar and it's also going to require a massive increase in transmission capacity which is very expensive so the thermal energy networks can take some of the pressure off doing those things and that's one reason why I think they're really important but um right now the ISO New England grid is much cleaner than using McNeil I mean even if you don't accept my argument that wood is dirtier than burning gas because for example in 2022 um the grid was 46% of the grid's power came from gas 23% came from nuclear which is low carbon 6% from hydro and 11% from renewables mostly wind and also solar and some other things we probably would fit in the bio the biomass probably is in that is probably characterized unless it's got its own data I'm not sure where that is it's probably included in the New England states with the exception of Connecticut do not count biomass as renewable okay I know Massachusetts used to and they repealed that so most New England states do not count burning biomass as renewable interesting and right now just to give you an idea as of January one of this year of the generation that's in the pipeline getting ready to come on to the ISO New England grid 50% of that is wind only 2% of it is gas 35% is battery storage 12% is solar so the grid is already cleaner than McNeil and it's rapidly becoming an even cleaner and that's why committing to long-term continued operation of McNeil is very concerning to myself and the people whom I've been working with and so the idea is to start to plan right not the immediate shutdown but that to start to plan and to bring the voices that will be affected into the table on you know around the table into the room and around the table and I think what I'm also taking from this is that we should be not just looking at that transition actually relates to in state in Vermont state generation of power that is decarbonized and that we need to do that you know we've got an old dump right oh it looks at McNeil actually it's down I usually I live at that top of the hill where the old dump was and they used to pipe out the methane they captured the methane and they made power right there and then they sent it to McNeil and that became part of the system and that has died I when I retired from the city in 2018 it was basically done and now we have a very big area that has a great exposure you know to have a great southern or southwestern exposure that I believe people have said when they've looked at it solar energy companies and consultants that there could be a couple of megawatts that would be created with a solar field up there and obviously that two megawatts if say you get the maximum doesn't replace 50 but you begin to make those incremental steps you know for Burlington so is that what you're what you're talking about in part in part yeah yeah of course the ISO New England grid draws energy generated from throughout New England and I agree that we want to be developing more wind and solar here in Vermont you know we want to keep dollars flowing locally that's good for the state's economy we seem to be falling behind some of the southern New England states for example there's a lot of offshore wind generating capacity being developed off the coasts of the southern New England states so I hope we can start doing more wind and solar development in Vermont believe it or not we don't have a lot more time and I've probably spoken more than I should so are there other things that you'd want us to to get to that we haven't nick I mean I guess I could comment on the hospital sure you know I indicated that we're concerned about the district energy proposal because it would have McNeil continuing to operate I'm also concerned that it might delay the hospital's transition to thermal energy networks and other low carbon sources of heat the hospital currently uses steam for heat in its buildings and my understanding I think Jared Rodriguez would agree with this that that makes conversion to a low energy network more difficult and expensive so we need we certainly need to have an engineer come in and do a feasibility study like Jim mentioned but I really think we want the hospital to start moving in that direction now and you know implement the thermal energy network and other alternatives gradually over time and I'm concerned that a long-term contract to supply steam to the hospital may delay that process that's interesting and I I don't know maybe Jim in the regulatory environmental work but other work that you've done you know you've got a green mountain care board that regulates hospitals and their concern is you know the cost the cost of care rightfully so that's a whole another show but is there a you know are you aware in terms of the regulatory system that we've got of a way to really engage UVMMC so they were doing the planning for this climate emergency within in Vermont be it through the PUC or through the green mountain care board and we don't have a lot of time so that one's above my pay grade there you go mine as well but I do think I mean part of shows like this is you know the reason that we do this is to raise the questions because if only the experts are talking to themselves and then coming from on high to tell us all the wonderful things that are that we have to all do and have to all pay for without being involved in the process it's a it's a recipe for the destruction of democracy I guess that my low pay grade answer would be probably the Vermont legislature could answer could provide a solution and if we looked at the Princeton example they did a cost-benefit study with experts and said it's not interesting to make this change for the entire campus so not just talking here about the medical center but the whole UVM campus it'd be great to have somebody fund that study and then we would all know what the facts are that's interesting and so in your work on on the house bill that you were talking about H 242 242 do you think that that's something that the the sponsors co-sponsors would start to think about no it's probably would be a separate bill yeah maybe maybe part of an appropriations bill and since some of UVM's budget goes through the legislative process every year that would that's where I would expect to see this that this could be addressed yeah but H 242 we need to keep it as narrowly focused as we can I was really not trying to add to glom on but to say are the same people who may have an interest in that be interested in making sure that the the biggest hospital in the state of Vermont you know the you know one of the largest employers right of course the medical center is a separate entity from yes the university which makes life very complicated I think that that study needs to be done to see to educate and to get information out to all the decision makers including the public and the city council well good we got about two minutes I've used up far too much of your guys time so let me ask you to give me some closing thoughts jean I want to thank you for having this discussion both tonight and I know over the past several months you've been forcing people to have this discussion around Burlington so thank you you're welcome and I want to echo that I really appreciate your leadership on these issues and the lengths to which you've gone to try to introduce these important topics and the conversation in the community I appreciate that you know it's not easy to integrate the work that community people are doing with the work of governance and policy making and far too often there's a messiah concept that's out there you know we elect people go solve it and I've never in the the fifth more than 50 years getting close to 60 years of working on this stuff I've never seen that as being a way that has anything but you know has lasting change so you know when I sit at the table I need the support from folks like you and organized folks that you're working with before to be able to give me the ideas and the information and the questions to ask people who are supposed to be supplying those answers those experts and then to be there as part of the process because when people are absent right then bad stuff happens right so it's like Woody Allen said what what did you say just showing up is half the game yes showing up yep that's a sort of like running races if you you cannot do very well and Nick and I are runners you got to show up you got to show up you got to show up I saw a great movie about running last night yeah 21 what was a 21 to life it was about the San Quentin prison marathon yeah yeah I've seen that uh seen that advertised um this work that we're doing is an ultramarathon it is not a marathon marathons are short in comparison I want to thank you for being on my team this this ultramarathon team uh for giving me the support and for a hope for me to be able to to do likewise and uh to the folks out here who are going to be watching this thanks I hope this has been been informative these are tough issues and complicated issues the McNeil plant proposal is before the city council in in a number of different ways it's in front of the electric commission it has it's going to have great impact on the future for a trust a just transition um into a decarbonized world that as I was saying before not only we but the are the generations that are going to come behind us need so um um thanks and I hope uh that uh we'll get to do this again soon have a great night and uh thank you good night