 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Bejwada Wilson, who is very well known for his activities against manual scavenging and a whole bunch of issues. Particularly with respect to the kind of problems we seem to have built for ourselves in which people die every year in trying to clean sewer, septic tanks and so on. Bejwada, it is a pleasure to have you with us. You have been giving figures of how many people die every year in this kind of activities which are essential to serving the cities, cleaning sewers, also on cleaning septic tanks because again a very large number of septic tanks. What are the kind of figures we have for? See we have some figures already that is also we collected in few towns. That is not exhaustive kind of wave numbers. That is also like a sample within after the Supreme Court judgment in 2014, March 27th against manual scavenging. Again manual scavenging. The government supposed to enumerate and find out how many deaths happened and for all of them the government has to give 10 lakhs compensation. And once we started going to the government many departments, ministries, the surprise is none of them has even any data about them and it is not consolidated. But from there you cannot get any number. But without getting the number how then we started collecting. So through our data it is a 1370 that within the two years we were able to collect some data that we have given to the ministry that is the number. But that number also is very less and it is not exhaustive. Actual numbers could be much larger. This is what you have been able to collect. Now a lot of them are not really permanent employees of the corporation or municipalities. A lot of them are contract workers or casual workers. See we have the sewage system in the municipalities, corporations mostly in the metros. There people are is the full timers with the corporation. We have the septic tank cleaners. Their majority are the contract labor or many times the private workers they engaging by the house owners. So this municipalities or the corporations directly engaging also is not a small number like Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Kolkata, Bangalore, Ahmedabad. There are quite a number of permanent employees. Why do you think that the people and this is not just the government. People are so callous about this. Do you think it is to do also with who are doing the cleaning and therefore lack of sensitivity to them towards them. Is it to do with what kind of communities, castes do this kind of work. See one is very clear the sanitation in our country it is a caste based. One must understand that first. But in large number untouchables only. When they are all engaged even the country or the people or the everybody they think that when the scavenger is cleaning what wrong is there. They are meant for that. And even our own people like my community because I also belong to the same community my own people they think what else we can do because we born into this caste. We cannot do any other works. If you do also it is a very difficult. This is at least easy we can continue and we can do. So these two angles are there. But government they do not think about this. Because it is going on. Do you think a part of the reason we do not think about this is also because this caste view point is built into the people who build the cities or develop the cities, plan for the cities. Because this is not a problem in different parts of the world. Everywhere there are sewers in urban areas. We do not hear about deaths in urban areas for cleaning of sewages in most countries. This seems to be peculiar to Indian. Do you think it is a part of or shall we say caste blindness as it were that we do not want to see the problem. We do not want to see and another thing is we do not care certain lives in the country. We do we have a very typical mindset which we give the priority of the article 21 says right to life. But which life is a matters there which life it is a life of the which group which class which caste. So all lives are not equal even if the article 21 says no. In the public sphere or somewhere they do not want to say all are not equal. They will say all are equal but some are more equal. So this group you never consider as in a group at all. They think that what is there after death immediately they will think what we can throw how much money we can throw close this and what is there a big deal anyway died. So how much money how many children this is the next. So nobody will say how this person died. Why somebody can die in this country where we talk about source science and technology developed. Why somebody we are making that nobody. So another thing is they are also thinking that they themselves they came and they died what can I do like. They do not think that this is a my septic tank this is a my sewer line which I engage them. No that concept is not at all there it is not the worker and the management that theory no it will never work with the scavengers. When it comes the scavengers are the easily available some certain group they will come and they clean while cleaning the accidentally they died what we can do like. So that is the reason we very clearly said that it is not the accident it is not the death it is the purpose you are killing us in the sewer line. You are killing us in septic tank because you have not mechanized you know that we are dying and most important is I think that we have to clearly say that because you have not done mechanization you are giving a room for the any death happening here. So we say that you are killing us and do not show your any kind of a sympathy or anything on us now because we want a political solution for this. It is a matter of justice not a matter of mercy that is we do not believe on the mercy or anything and I also believe very strongly that this is a kind of a the government must take the decision on this you cannot throw on the society and always say that it is a societal problem it is a social problem and no it is not social problem caste is not social problem caste might have emerged as a social something or emergence. But the solution must come from the political. Coming back to the issue of Swachh Bharat there is now a campaign for 10 crore toilets that government has announced they are giving money and so on. But is there any consideration to providing proper sewage from the toilet or providing water to the toilet because both of this without this the toilet is essentially back to manual cleaning. So what how do you see the Swachh Bharat program in this context. 2014 October 2nd prime minister came and in the India gate he announced the Swachh Bharat and it has given a kind of a view that in India from now onwards everybody is cleaning it is not the caste based it is not patriarchal or anything including the prime minister is cleaning in the country like. So that we felt that you are taken back the 35 years of the movement which has built a kind of a open the eyes of the many across the globe taken back and you have not found even a single solution and you started constructing the toilet. Toilet construction is not a big deal in the country it is happening is since very long. But you made that as in a big and you started setting 12 crores of the toilets they are constructing by 2019 existing toilets which is not catering very well and thereby there is a sewage system is getting the not taking it all the human excreta or under our sewage system also not having the sewage treatment plants sufficiently. So these are the reasons for the many sewage deaths. Now we are adding another 12 crores toilets. So means very simple is you are also constructing 12 crores septic tanks because you do not have the any underground drainage system in many places where you are constructing the Swachh Bharat toilets. They may argues very clearly state that we have the twin pit there is no place for even one pit where is the place for the poor to construct the two twin pit underground. So this is just for argument sake we can say. But later the practical is you have no space for the toilet even if you have there is a little space for the septic tank those septic tanks are allowing the many deaths in future that they have not thought at all. And second is water facility there is no water facility there is keep on constructing in every place the toilet and you are imposing your ideas on the people. People need many things but you want to give only one that is the toilet. They do not have the food to eat but you are giving the toilet they have to use. Like many things are there if I take only my own people only that is also without the water facility without the proper sanitation providing the toilets is going to create more and more problem for this country and more scavengers are going to die in that. So I feel strongly that you are killing us now and now you are going to kill as a mass. But the name itself sometimes I get disturbed that Swachh Swachh gives a kind of a pure pollution like this is the barat of the pure purity that barat you represents it is not exactly the cleaners the people who are did the contributions to this country. Their contributions never recognized when you announced also 4000 years a particular community has cleaned this country made this country to be today whatever we have to this stage. You have not said even a single word and such people they want to come out of that the particularly the women they want to come we do not want to clean that they came out they thrown their baskets they burnt this their baskets such people are eligible to receive the rehabilitation from the government. The government is not ready to give any kind of a rehabilitation before it was a 570 crores for the rehabilitation in 2012 and 13 this year it has gone the budget for them is the 10 crores whereas you do not have the money. For the Swachh Bharat it was the first announcement itself 2 lakh crores and later now 11000 or some 1000 crores or something now the budget. So, you have money for to construct the toilets you have no money for the scavengers get the rehabilitation or their own liberation. You do not want them to leave this occupation because you still want them to take care of the problems that you are creating. The next generation if the mother is coming out of the scavenging the daughter and others daughter in law they are not going to continue that because you are so that is what we feel very clearly coming one women throwing the basket is not a small one it is a 4000 years the caste bandage it is a just captive them like a chains she is breaking that there is a link between the birth and the caste and caste and the occupation in the country. So, she is not doing just a small thing she is a breaking this for that the government must come and honor them and state what you want we are there because you are changing the whole social order. See the other community which is really again hit badly is those who take away dead animals and now we have seen in Oona in different places protests that we will not do this occupation because we are now being persecuted for clearing what you consider as a necessity and yet if we do that we are accused of killing a cow and so on. So, how do you see that you think that there is a larger alliance between for instance those who are being forced into this kind of occupation to build up and try and demand for instance for land in Gujarat they have said give us land you keep your cow which you consider so pure give us land so do you think these are some of the demands we should now think about that yes you are tied us to this occupation we need alternate occupations and give us land as one of the demands. Very simple people are taking this both in reverse way that itself is the cost see Oona the Dalits are not stating today we have cleaned or we have carried your dead animals everything death carcasses 4000 years so you do another 40 years we do not want to do if they could have said then you may get angry you should not even for that because they did 4000 years you can do 440 years at least to compensate but they are saying that from now onwards I do not want to clean I do not want to carry your dead animals what wrong is there it is a very fair deal they are not saying stating my dead animals you clean they can say that they definitely they have right to say that that also they are not saying they are saying that from tomorrow we are not going to clean very fair but the casteist groups they are not happy to even accept that because there is no scope for the change in this country mostly the social order the women when they throw also they are saying we actually want our livelihood may be in rural areas the land in urban areas other livelihoods whatever but we are also not just linking you take this you give that is also one but we are saying stating very clearly you give or not we are not going to do now you take care about your this thing do you see the link between this cow the Gomata and the caste system do you see a link very clear very clear it is you make an irrationalism and throw on the everybody and make everybody to accept then you are also taking our rational how many people given life in this country to be we are all just to think that we are all equal it is a way of reimposing the caste system the radical system again on the people so cow is an instrument instrument that is the reason otherwise the cow there is nothing wrong you can say and you say that it is a my mother all those things when it die then how your mother can you can throw on me if it is your mother then you keep your mother you do whatever rituals you have to suppose to do then I can also think that it is an emotionally you have something and that is your personal business if somebody want to do their own personal business you do that I have no but you cannot make me to believe that kind of a baseless things there I get so really disturbed this I my this thing is not because I born as an untouchable or anything for me the children the next generation in this country should not believe this kind of a things irrational and illogical thank you this has been a pleasure talking to you and news click will be with you whatever programs you do we would like to be a part of it in the future thank you very much