 You went did you go through the white paper? Did you read it? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I kind of has spent most of yesterday and today kind of dissecting playing with code a little bit, too Which has been good, you know Stuff on it. They've been working on it for a while obviously because I think at least for a year And they've got at least a pretty decent team. I think they had pulled together some really great ideas from the space like You know, I think their consensus mechanism is an interesting take I thought that maybe they would go with something like tendermans consensus, which I was actually kind of hoping for because yeah And why tweeted yesterday that it would be super interesting if finances decks, which is based on tendermans Who was compatible with Libra? So that'd be an interesting angle I mean not that you couldn't do it, but it makes a lot easier when you're using the same Consensus mechanism and same kind of core building blocks So did anything kind of stand out to you and ready? I Think the big thing was Just I mean one of the things that a lot of people have been kind of harping on is right now the initial The people that are able to run validators in the high price to pay to get there I get why they did it because I think like you do kind of want to start with those big multi-nationals that have the influence So I think the one, you know We've been looking at a lot of stable coins and working with quite a few like trust token and Paxos and stably You know and we support more than anybody on our platforms being Kind of going pretty deep in this space because I think our belief is that stable coins are going to be the next generation of adoption for cryptocurrency And the reason being is purely because they remove the volatility like you remove the volatility But get the benefits of the crypto in terms of ideally right like and I realized that when it's collateralized one for one It's not truly censorship resistant All that stuff, but you get a lot of the benefits of programmable money easier Auditability lower cost payments like all that sort of stuff, which is a huge win for people Around the world, but especially in countries where their financial system isn't as good as ours I mean that's kind of what got me into the space is being exposed to people in Venezuela and Argentina and you know one of our employees is still down there and You know in Ukraine and Nigeria and all over and you realize that their financial systems are pretty messed up and That they're paying like massive premiums premiums to be able to Participate in the global economy and it's keeping them sort of this generation or this wealth gap between like have and have Without nations it's impossible to get over it when you're paying like Upwards of like 5x to get access to US dollars just to do international trade like that's Just insane. You can't you can't compete globally. So I think In that respect, I'm really excited to see where Libra goes because obviously they have the network behind it And I think that that could really help level the playing field But I think the big challenge that they're Going to face obviously is regulatory and So I think it's smart that they you know, you guys touched to you and Mauricio touched on that bit yesterday, I think You know having the leverage of those big multinationals Might make it so that it's like a juggernaut that can't Really be shut down because some of those companies are just so big and so important to the global economy now that Even if people want to shut it down They like what are they gonna do? We like ban it make it illegal. I mean at that point you might have companies that just say screw it You can't too bad Which is a really interesting. I mean, it's an exciting time to be alive. It's really interesting like You might see a point in time where You think Facebook's gonna pull an Uber? It's sort of kind of seems like that but the interesting thing at least like they kind of set it up in a way so far Where Facebook's? reaches are I think more limited than people were expecting Which is smart Obviously, there's still a lot of they have their tendrils into it for sure I mean, I even right before I jumped on the podcast. I was looking at who some of the backers are and Realized that Zuckerberg's on the board of one of the VC backers. I was like, okay Well, there's yet another foothold into another vote, right? Yeah, that's also they have two-third valid validator collusion It's it's a cartel of validators nothing stopping them coming together. But I got this is a new consensus or whitelistus address blacklist that address and they can they can reverse any transactions to Yeah, big time which I think You know, it's kind of a double-edged sword like I think It depends on how it ends up getting used and that's sort of the the problem with a lot of stuff, right? It's like one of the challenges with Bitcoin payments in terms of usability is the fact that you can't reverse it I mean you can refund and you know, we do that with our payments platform but It's still you know, it's a challenge, right? Like there's people if you look at credit card payments the fact that you can do charge backs is good for the consumer when you're getting Screwed by the vendor, but there's also a lot of people that abuse that and then vendors get screwed. So I Think like I'd like to you know And people have been trying to tackle that stuff with smart contracts and interesting things around like time-based escrow but I think It's kind of a bit of both like you do kind of need the ability to do To potentially reverse malicious transactions, I think But it definitely the the facts like who's involved I think makes it both very interesting but also a little bit scary in the sense that like As individuals there is enough doesn't feel like there's a whole lot we can really do Outside this is not to option. I have a saying, you know History doesn't repeat itself by your rhymes. How you do one thing is how you do everything. So we can take these heuristics and look at Well, Facebook has been doing how they've been behaving And so for me, it's like, okay, especially as of late. I'm like if that's your behavior and Really don't care about the end user as it seems your actions speak louder than your words for anything Now you're gonna know what I'm buying. You're gonna know what I'm selling You're gonna know my transaction history. What's gonna happen with the political environment where you You know I was talking about and and the other day about this where it's like, okay, you know now the political parties I'm donating to if I use Libra It's like no, you shouldn't have that information You shouldn't know who I'm donating to you shouldn't know who I'm supporting Unless I unless I raise my hand and say yes You can have my permission to know who I give money to Yeah, the opt the opt-in effect. I mean The interesting thing or I guess like playing devil's advocate is that You know visa and master cards those ones they already do kind of know Right. I mean, yeah, that's why use privacy.com. I'm not sure if you're Yeah, I fucking love privacy.com. They kick ass Yeah, but I think like, you know people in the crypto space are still the The very vocal minority Um, most people I mean I was kind of I've said this to a few people before I'm like Most people don't give a shit about their privacy until something bad happens It's like they don't until it happens. Yeah, I mean you take it for granted and it's the same thing with money I mean people have done the same thing. Like, you know, people in venezuela didn't expect Or even here like if you're looking at, you know, uh high prosperity place like Hong Kong You had two million people marching the other day Majority people went to the train station with cash. They didn't want to use Wechat or any of the payment option due to identification because they didn't want to tell the government that i was part of this political movement to say no It was like everyone wants to use cash Yeah, and that's where it gets super crazy is like the surveillance state in china I mean and the interesting thing is that there are people that are actually for it I mean That's kind of the crazy the crazy thing is that like some people I mean because there are definite efficiency gains that come out of it, but Yeah, it's It's it's definitely or or william. That's for sure. It's uh, you know, you kind of look at how that could be happening on a global scale So a bit crazy. How do you how do you see libra in relationship to Because to me, I don't specifically see libra As an adversary against the crypto community because to me, it's not a crypto To me, it's just another payment token used by You know national corporate corporations Kind of like a ali pay in fact One of my theses is they created this to go against ali pay Ali pays a huge threat towards facebook because ali pays massive in african indian facebook's been trying to Get penetration and the saturation with facebook in those places But for me, it's like i'm i'm i'm more curious, you know from or No, for me. I'm on the web three side. I want a new web three. I care about privacy. I care about tools, you know, there's There's a maxim like we can't change human nature if you look at history At one point in time governments always turn on their citizen always There's always some type of There's always some type of Issue like there's always there's always something going on where you have a government Who is causing some issues to some group of people within a within a nation? And for me, it's like we can't change that unless we change the whole government structure Hopefully that's where we're going headed to I think you know Owen e wilson a very famous biologist has the best saying we have paleolithic emotions mid-evil institutions and godlike technologies And uh, you know, we're still uh, we're still in the kings and queens era like you look at The first lady like in the president like two people like We need a we need a person to run 300 million people like uh, and hopefully my my overall vision is we Reverb back to more decentralized government city states More smaller variable Power plays that we can create game theoretical models that everyone puts checks and bounds kind of like switzerland is kind of loosely but Going back to crypto is How do you see crypto responding to this? Well, I think I think it added like at the very minimum This is definitely if crypto wasn't already Enough on the main stage the last little bit, you know with some of the good stuff and bad stuff this is definitely Woke a lot of people up around That that you know Cryptocurrencies in some fashion whatever form they take Um Are here to stay like that genie's out of the bottle and satoshi kicked it off, right? It's not going back so I think um I think it also like to your point around whether leapers are cryptocurrency I think I personally think it is but it also depends on like how you define it, right? I mean if you're looking at cryptocurrencies as Uh decentralized and censorship resistant, it's definitely not that um Not even close, right? Uh, but I think it doesn't need personally. That's that's how I view a cryptocurrency has to be censorship resistant Or more or less. Why am I even using a blockchain? I'll use a dlt Cheaper faster easier digital currency. See you later Yeah, I guess maybe the way that I I kind of mix and match those or Interchange those words quite a bit digital currency and cryptocurrency, but I use um the way I look at it Maybe more technical in that sense where it's like uh, doesn't use cryptography for for signing things and making um Transaction secure so I think To me it is but there's there's a huge spectrum of cryptocurrencies out there a lot of them that are Totally useless and some of them that are super interesting like I think bitcoin is a really interesting one But in terms of you know the way we've been thinking about stable coins um An adoption of crypto you know even Anyways, we were kind of talking about right before we jumped on was uh You know, I think there's a lot of the volatility is a huge barrier for people So I think like some of the big problems we've had in the space in terms of mainstream adoption I mean I think a lot of the a lot of people have been really focused on speed and like cost and all this sort of stuff And my argument has been like blockchain is already great. It just depends on the context You know you can pay a big point to a wire transfer. It looks fucking awesome I mean, it's incredible, right? And that's the slowest most expensive cryptocurrency to send stuff around I'm still waiting for a fucking wire transfer six days now from bank. Yeah, well, and there's serious issues like There's serious issues around wire fraud and stuff like that Like we haven't been a victim of wire fraud, but we've had issues where we've had trouble Getting wires to you know, australia, for example And we don't find out for two three weeks and you're constantly calling the other party to be like Hey, did you get it? Did you get it? So there's just implied trust and if somebody was actually doing wire fraud By the time you've done a trace and like get the money back or don't get it back and find out that they took off Of the money. It's like three weeks later They're already gone, man. So like bitcoin looks pretty amazing from that perspective because I can send something Um and frankly any crypto almost looks better way better because I can send Any amount of money to anywhere in the world For you know, maybe a couple bucks tops for bitcoin It takes a couple hours for me to be like 100 secure that it's going to be there And I think the biggest thing is like I get visibility that the other person will see that so You know, you can't do that with wires right now, which is kind of insane So what do you see like libra with like the other payment tokens because in the space you have like Ripple and you have all these other so-called payment tokens to me from ackham's razor perspective and what facebook represents and who they are and Networks network of cooperation that brought him like To me the other payment tokens are moot almost Yeah, I'd say so I think it's a race to adoption right so it's like who's going to get the most adoption and You know, I've always been a little bit more interested in stellar versus ripple because they're actually really similar like Similar yeah Well, I mean jed, you know left. There's you know, whatever some disagreements and You know, I wasn't around in this space at that time. So I'm coming in late and like reading history but They are really similar mechanics, but I think the big difference is that you know There are some concrete differences around the consensus mechanism But I think the big thing is like ripple put more of an emphasis on institutions Which is kind of where facebook has been going right now, right? and stellar put more emphasis on Uh, kind of letting anybody be able to to be a stellar anchor and run nodes You know, the challenge I think with stellar is like IBM you look at their network and like IBM controls a lot of it right now so And they've been having a tough time getting adoption So I think I've been kind of a fan of stellar and how they've gone about things and where they're looking I mean, we were looking at kind of adopting We wanted to see Kind of how things play out with libra and I think Yeah, I think, you know, they should be kind of worried because the power that Is behind in the momentum probably behind libra But they're they're only quite a bit behind right like yeah, they are we're like We don't know that you know the white paper is a white paper. They have test and who knows how main net's going to be I have no idea what the finished product will be Well, I mean when you look at the code like right now it's like core code with cli So we're looking at me integrating and and playing with libra on test net Uh to show to see how it work, but we're going to have to build our own, you know Rappers for the I'm more inch. I'm more interested in the network effect of is anybody allowed to Do they do they create a permissionless system where anyone can plug and play? Well, apparently five years five years out. That's sort of the plan Um, so maybe you gotta see that's the opportunity for other people. This is why you got the open defi space I don't need permission. I can go this is why stop being built on a theorem right now You know some of it's I don't think so. There's real use cases right now But at least the ideas behind it and the fact that people are tinkering and building. I'm like it's fucking cool, man Super cool. Yeah, I mean that's sort of been my thesis around Permission networks versus not permission like We saw the same thing with a whole bunch of different types of networks, right? It's like we saw with uh, well, even if you go as far back as mail, but you go back to Like telephone internet Mobile email like a lot of people tried to build their own private Email networks and internet networks internet and things like that and at the end some of them were quite successful for a little bit But after a while once there was kind of enough mass adoption on the more open network everybody went well crap better interface with the open network because that's where everybody's asked simple Simple osmosis. That's it Yeah, so I think like you know, that's sort of the challenge too will be With a lot of these more permission networks is how do they bridge or become more open? Do they transition to becoming more open or are they bridging or do they just Everybody migrates to something that is more open, but you need a bunch of factors It's really complicated, right? You need good usability liquidity All sorts of stuff. You need to be actually be able to use these tokens or stuff. And that's what we're focused on I'm interested to see with like libra if libra is able to plug into like dex's like you mentioned earlier because the Finance dex is tenor mint. They're not using tenor mint, but you know, there's still ways to do it. You have cool like Smart contract exchange like uniswap, which is really cool Yeah And a lot of people, you know, they have a lot of users globally on that it would be I'm interested to see like how do you build that network effect? You know, if it's just highly regulated exchanges and the people you're trying to reach forget about it Yeah, I think I think we probably will see that stuff. I mean, we'll definitely see I expect that we'll see once mainnet launches. We'll see some exchanges supporting libra as well, which In terms of impact or benefit to the crypto community, obviously like now if you have this massive on ramp You know supposedly can get people into libra because they haven't really washed out how that's going to happen um But if people are already in the crypto economy, right now The portability of cryptocurrency like that's one of the other major benefits regardless whether you're bitcoin or stablecoin or whatever The fact that you can do exchanges and swaps between all these currencies in a more permissionless efficient ways kind of crazy so I think you'll see a bit more of that because that's One of the challenges facing the crypto space is unwrapping right not wrapping I'm interested to see what happens with heather, you know, now they have their own leo token, right? Which is interesting. I haven't looked into the mechanics and their burn mechanism. Some people say it's interesting. I haven't seen it, but Let's say it's like, okay, people will trust Libra more and Libra become dominant and you have the gemini coin Libra versus Gemini I'm more interested in the psychological aspect where it's like, okay, I got Let's say for people who are trading or holding the some some crypto and they want to stop They want to hedge against any volatility And so they they place the crypto into Libra And then from Libra, they sell it later on into whatever crypto Do they track the the data of that user? You know, so like, uh, you know, you know, I mean, so Let's say like Eric and Amir are doing something, you know, bitcoin trading, whatever it may be We go to Libra, then we go back to bitcoin two three months later. Let's say Do they know it's you and I doing that? That that's what I'm kind of interested in is the identity aspect of that Well, I think in theory you could you know, I was talking with uh, Matt Unger from uh, I can fly earlier this morning We were talking a little bit about this and he said that that's actually the part that kind of worries him the most I mean, they come more from the From the identity space, right? And he said, yeah, I mean, yeah, because they do the all the KYC ML stuff Yeah, yeah, yeah more crypto focused giving them a bit of a plug, I guess But they um, yeah, we were chatting a bit this morning about how That is kind of the scary thing around, you know, facebook having access to all of your Financial data and being able to monitor pretty much everything But I think that is probably also not going to be just facebook, right? Like The validated nodes, that's the interesting thing is like anybody's running a validator can see all the history of everything And so yeah the transactions are open But it comes down to who's the Person or groups that actually know who made those transactions And if it's all happening through calibre like facebook's wallet, they're going to know exactly who it was So now they can track all your transactions and it's just this crazy mesh net of Everybody in there where their money moves Yeah Playing devil's advocate, there's some efficiency gains and like really interesting stuff that can be done with that But it's also a scary thought. I think it's a net. I've been saying this since day one um I knew about facebook coming up with your own coin. I didn't know what it's called. I just figured they're going to come out with something I figured all the fang companies will come out with one I thought the amazon first because they have amazon credit. Oh, there you go. You can make your amazon credit into amazon coin, you know um So it's like let's say, uh Hypothetically all the fangs google's amazon's they come out their own coins I'm supr I wouldn't be surprised to see google, you know, they want to compete. They got google play Um or google pay. Sorry. Do you think they wouldn't just join the consortium? I don't know. We'll see. I don't know depends on how much uh How much stake they see into that and how much of the business do they care about that? I'm like, I don't know how out of their whole market share. How much market share is google pay. I don't I have no idea Yeah, I'm not sure either um but And plus their uh their track records with social media platforms are horrendous google plus was the biggest shit show I've ever seen in my life Yeah, but it's gone now. Thank god. Goodbye. Thank you Hey, at least they managed to kill something that wasn't working takes some balls to be able to do that Especially when it's been running all Yeah, I don't know. I always say like people give too much credit to google to me google is just in a glorified ad agency If you really look at it, it's it's an engine. It was a better engine than altavista when altavista was king And uh, it's a better search engine But if you look at where their profit is and peter teal talks about this is just ads they haven't really Invented legitimate tech like the two texts that I like to invent it is google auth the Authenticator app. Yeah, and uh, they're google drive suites. I think I think it's maps too. I give them that For which one google maps? Oh maps. Yeah, yeah But they fucking bought my favorite map company. They killed it. It's not the same as before about ways Yeah Yeah, it is. Sorry injecting their stuff into it. Like, yeah, it's not the same anymore. Yeah, but uh Where is it going with this? Oh, yeah, uh going back a full full circle. Um I think generally speaking what all these fan companies are going to do is just bring to the public light of what crypto is And then because of them they're going to put more of a validation of like this is where we're heading And so now everyone's going to know you're going to have billions of people like what is this crypto thing What everyone call digital currency crypto thing and just through sheer I guess their marketing campaigns. I'm we're going to have such an influx of curious individuals wanting to know like What is this, you know, then they they started diving in bitcoin theory and this that I think we're just I think the next two three we with two three uh years we're going to have an influx of millions of users Yeah, I I think so too The crypto is a steep learning curve though. I mean like you have to know a lot of stuff and I think our team is going pretty deep pretty quick, but we also had Every one of our co-founders has 15 plus years building distributed systems. I agree I agree, but you look at places that Facebook is trying to go after they want they definitely want to start hitting more of asia african india mention If you look at you know, charlie monger has a good saying show me the incentive I show the outcome and the reality is the incentives the majority of people who enter crypto There's only one incentive is to make money The ICOs people always bitch at ICO people raising money I'm like you do forget for you to raise money people need to give you money So there's two at this party. Yeah, you know So eric and I could be here all day whatever saying hey, we're doing an IEO now and it's for whatever, you know funny Funny bunny coin, you know, give me 10 million dollars People give me money people give me money But the only reason they give me money they think they're gonna flip it right because liquidity event because it's liquid And so if we're looking at the psychology in these places like india and africa Listen like anywhere in the world people want to get rich. They want to make more money, right? From the incentive aspect and so with stable coins, you can't do that It's not like I buy libra at a dollar and making more money same thing like I'm buying dye I'm not making more dye with dye dye supposed to be a stable coin unless I'm buying the What's it called the voting mechanism, but that's too complicated people aren't going to get a voting with tokens, you know, but so What I think is going to happen is you're going to have influx of people like what is this thing? Oh, it's only digital dollars. What do I do with that? I buy things But how do I make money you don't you don't make money will libra or where do I make money? Oh Bitcoin can go up. Oh ethereum can go up and like most people obviously you're right. They're not going to do research So guess what's going to happen? They're going to look at things are single digits Unlike coin market cap or something like that You know like I remember during the the crazy one was a 2016 or 17 17 we had a yeah the icl craze People are buying ethereum like one because they're just cheaper. That's it. Yeah It wasn't because oh, I know what yeah, exactly And it's the same thing with like blue chip stocks, right the same thing you see in cryptos If it's less than a buck people go, oh man, this could have massive multiples. There's no fundamentals Look at the ripple bot army, man to the moon Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's true. Oh my god Yeah, I think um It's interesting. I mean, I think the I totally agree with it that you know Libra and a bunch of stablecoins aren't there for making money unless you're very sophisticated and you're like in arbitrage and all sorts of stuff Yeah, right. Um But where I think the big like where I think they're going to push it think they've even kind of hinted at this Even if they haven't set it straight up is like You know remittances and likely you look at where Are is their biggest whatsapp usage? It's in india. So they're probably For remittance in india now there's weird stuff happening around Crypto regulation in india with them like banning crypto outright. So where does this fit? Like that's why I think a lot of this is super early But the big benefit for a lot of people in countries and this is what we've been kind of focused on is like People where their fiat currency is like legitimately failing You know, I think a lot of us in the crypto space that are crypto believers like see the systemic risk of The kinesian economic policies we've been following for 80 90 years Which isn't that long in the grand scheme of history, right? And how much the incentives are misaligned and now we've been printing money and all this sort of stuff You can't keep doing that for forever I mean, I have the stats here like just 2019 the top ones venezuela 10 million inflation zimbabwe 73 Sudan 49 argentina 43 iran 37 south sudan 24 Liberia 22 yemen 20 angola 17 third turkey 17 Imagine waking up in like quarter like quarter of your buying power was gone overnight Yeah, I mean totally when we pitched this I mean we get a first gross tea because our One of our employees is down there and that's how we jump through this and we see this You know, you said last month inflation was 4 right? So So what we're seeing down in argentina specifically where we see more access is like people are not using credit cards So much and a lot of merchants stop accepting credit cards because the interesting thing that people don't know Is and I guess like I kind of hinted at this earlier was um You know blockchains are already pretty good like people get all hyped about the speed and cost but Could it be better? Absolutely. I mean, you know dlt's and stuff like lever that are Maybe more centralized, but faster speeds are going to provide a better user experience But I would argue it's actually just more of a user experience and liquidity issue than there's a tech issue at the moment because When you understand how credit cards work The the settlement finality takes anywhere from one to 30 plus days depending on where you are in the world Right brazil's leading or second largest payment processor pays out net 40 40 days That's that's unheard of here in argentina. They get paid net 30 So that's why people stop a lot of people have stopped taking credit cards there because When you have 10% devaluation in a month So what are they taking? What's the primary? cash and debit cash and debit. Yeah, yeah The interesting thing that we're seeing is like people are now though trying to You know protect their wealth in anything, right? So it's like gold or us dollars primarily us dollars Anyone wants us dollars? Yeah Yeah, which that's kind of how we we're thinking this is very similar to I think uh cryptocurrency reserve Um stablecoin, I think they're not out. So now they're gonna be in some trouble I think they're taking a long time to kind of get moving for the big the way that we thought stablecoins would kind of evolve is Through three phases where it's First ways we're already kind of in where it's like fee up back one for one digital us dollars Because that's a global reserve that everybody wants right now. It's how everything's priced for better or worse and then The second phase is a bit more decentralization of collateral and that seems to be where Libra is kind of going It's like adding different commodities Securities and other currencies the interesting thing is they're starting there. So that may Work really well But that also might make it a little bit weird because it might be really hard for people to price things And that's sort of actually one of the arguments for why I have Why I personally don't see a likely scenario I think it's possible, but very slim that bitcoin becomes like a global reserve currency Um, you don't see bitcoin as a hedge No, I think it's absolutely a hedge against fiat failing. I think that like ultimately you're basically banking on the whole uh Global economy shitting itself Um, so it's a great hedge and that's why I personally invest and buy You're you're saying more or less that you don't see people using bitcoin as a means of payment Yeah, and even I think one of the things because it's so volatile Uh, it's hard for people to put a lot of their wealth In bitcoin because there's so much volatility And it's also really hard for them to want to spend something that could be worth twice as much But don't you think bitcoin, let's say you get like we what's the terminology they use like hyper Bitcoinization Yeah, um, let's say we fast forward we get to that point. There's going to be a Hormatic level where bitcoin is stable at for sure. Whatever. That's let's say random number 100k whatever it is Yeah, don't you think that in there people will then hold longer because you're right places like well If then as well as unique considering Their inflation is ridiculous, but let's say places. That's like 15 give or take Don't you think it's still safer for them to hold in bitcoin than their country's fiat like long term It's long. Yeah on the time horizon like longer term. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think so. So I think If we unpack this a little bit more, um, one of the things that was bothering me for a while And I had to do I had to reread say fideen amuse's book bitcoin standard, right? So I read it I think like a year ago. I skimmed it and I was like, oh, this is pretty cool But I had to actually go back and reread it thoroughly and be like With new knowledge Because there were a couple of things that were bothering me and one of them was will people spend bitcoin period? um And one of the big things for me was it's a deflationary asset Well, people spend a deflationary asset and I was like, okay. Well, that's I had to do a whole bunch of economic theory Go read history read saves both bunch of stuff, right? And so it's I got over that hurdle like people will spend you want you went down the rabbit hole to meet the meesees institute Yeah People will spend a deflationary asset But I mean, hey if we flip from a pretty heavy inflationary Ecosystem or economy that we live in now around the world and flip to a deflationary one There's going to be a hell of a lot of pain for some people Mostly the poor people unfortunately But the one thing that's kind of so I've got over that hurdle like people will do it I've given a different time horizon or a significant enough time horizon There might be some bumps along the way, but people would do it I think the big thing for me is like, how do we stabilize the price of bitcoin and the the three Possible scenarios that I can come up with so far are One of them that was presented to me that I thought was kind of interesting was like Maybe you have a whole nation decide to like accumulate bitcoin and then eventually like just flip and say like hey Our currencies denominated in in satoshis um That might do it that might trigger a massive buy obviously because like the price is determined based on supply and demand We have a price floor based on how much it costs to to manufacture let's say mine bitcoin, but It would price would like skyrocket and eventually would find some equilibrium. I think so that's maybe a possibility um, the other one I think is um Right now one of the challenges is there's a huge concentration of wealth with bitcoin Far worse than fiat at the moment And so you'd basically need the reason why it can be so volatile is because a lot of people can manipulate it because the market is Less mature. So you'd need people to start to sell that their bitcoin or or give it away Right, and I think unless there's some hidden trap door built into Bitcoin code base. I don't see that happening Uh, because if that was going to happen I would have expected to see more of a sell-off during this massive market downturn and we didn't really see that So the third one that I think is maybe a bit more likely in the short term Is whether we see futures Keep the price a bit more stable um Because ultimately like what's safe is kind of arguing for in his book Is that like in order for things to be used as currency you need to start pricing things in in bitcoin? and Right now I see that as a pretty hard Hurdle or big hurdle for people to get over given the volatility So there's nothing I agree like yeah I agree. Like I said earlier to me of you Elise currently with the narrative for me The value prop of bitcoin is not the price That's secondary For me the value prop is censorship resistant peer-to-peer Yeah, 100 and eventually once we get snore signatures and other technologies evolved into bitcoin would have even more privacy And so for me is a fact that no one can take this for me. That's the value prop for me Now what happens with the price? That's a secondary benefit of having it um, and so places like You know, I think that's sort of just a function of the fact that we're still in the us dollar economy right now Yes, yes, I've been thinking about like how do you migrate over to bitcoin? And I might take quite a long time and maybe leavers a really interesting step to get there because yeah People move from being us dollar denominated global currency to Yeah Alice basket one and the way that I've been kind of envisioning like a collateral basket is actually like kind of stealing from pomp um from pompiano is that like He's always been seeing to a lot of the people that he the institutions that he's pitching is like the asymmetric upside of of uh Bitcoin is massive and so if you put one percent of your portfolio or two percent or whatever your risk profile is Um in it sure you it might go to zero. You might lose it all right, but one or two percent out of the portfolio loss is is not Not nothing to worry about But you could have a thousand x return like if this does end up being a good hedge against fiat failing then um You know, you basically have made a monster return For your your risk profile and so that's kind of how it's also a non correlated non correlated asset At least as we know right now so far. Yeah, it looks like that So I think that's the way I've been sort of expecting to see a collateral basket Uh structured for a stablecoin as well In that it would include You know one or more crypto assets in a small percentage right now, but that Would provide some security around the hedge that fiat currencies fail um And so far there's no discussion about that with libra, too, which I think you know, maybe they intentionally left that out Maybe they have been thought of it, but I think um That is an interesting uh Take because I think um You're totally right like the value a lot of people criticize bitcoin uh And other cryptocurrencies, but bitcoin specifically Around it being not useful or it's not like gold or doesn't have this intrinsic value and What they're not realizing is like the in there's definitely a trust system in that people need to Believe or a belief system that people need to believe it has value But that's what any money is like that doesn't matter what Is the underlying asset everybody has to believe it has value So the true value of bitcoin is its censorship resistance and so far we take that for granted in north america But there's a lot of people in other countries that Feel have pain like every day, you know, iran's a pretty good example. Saudi can be a pretty good example You know like a lot of those people um China is like a great example, right of people that are oppressed by Government and they don't have any option that bitcoin gives them an option and so The value of that Is still pretty hard to quantify. It's like how many people need that Need that censorship resistance and You know 10 years from now like I think I think I think also if you look at uh The great dahlios micro macro economic cycle. Yeah, it gets worse and worse Yeah, it gets worse and worse You got they're jacking up qe now Negative interest rates are coming. So it's like we're so fuck that we have to suppress everything. So you're extending the bubble from 2008 Yeah, and so great dahlio is saying like, you know, he expects a massive I I agree with his thesis 100% the only thing I don't or 99% the only thing I don't agree with this is timescale he was saying you expect a massive global recession within the next two years probably spurred on by countries in latin Uh, defaulting on their IMF debt Argentina right like this likely going to come from there or kick started from there Uh, I think though it's we probably have a bit more leash than that and the reason being is because the u.s. Dollars the global currency and a lot of people are still very unaware of um the money printing and It's just you know, I think there's more leash than two years But I could see it happening definitely with the next five or ten like in my lifetime 100% Oh, yeah, for sure. It's going to happen in our lifetime and I think this that black swan event is going to be because the last black swan event In no way that's when bitcoin came around Yeah Like who they who whether it's halffini or a group of people around halffini. I don't know I don't spend too much time wondering who's who or they said she was Um, so I have a question around this. Maybe yeah, it's based longer than I have um And this is just totally hypothetical But do you think that they were planning that around 2008? Do you think 2008 spawned or If you look at uh If you look at bitcoin talk forum Yeah, and you look at the white paper and you look at You look at how they put all different technologies together because well, they're you know the bitcoin blockchain It's uh, it's a combination different stacks of tech together. Yeah I think they were working on it for a while. I think so too. Yeah But I know and I think it's just like kind of coincidence that I came together Like right in 2008 or if it was You know, there's two answers. There's two answers for this building towards that with that whole seeing what was happening kind of like you and I are going like Well, it's Fucked like queues on a on a on a runaway train like debt to gdp ratios are absurd Yeah, yeah, there's two answers for that one is timed but then again How do you time the black swan event some people knew about it? So you could so we could say that the people saw the writing on the wall or My my thesis is just like any startup It's very hard to time the markets and if you look at the most successful startups It's all about timing it's it's not really, you know, if you and I VC fund a company We have we raise money and it's not like I'm smarter than you, you know what I mean? It's my timing was better and my execution was better We had the same tech is just timing and execution is not the money defining It's not like you're some kind of super genius compared to me, right or like vice versa. I just believe through sheer Sheer luck that the timing was right That's it like they came at the right time and the black swan event happened and then for people started reading about it and You know people started having They were disparate and pissed off and you know people are losing their homes and foreclosure and the price was you know the dollar was dropping down and You got this thing called peer-to-peer cash Yeah, yeah, I mean it is kind of crazy. It's definitely timing related because they're not Bitcoin definitely wasn't the first peer-to-peer cash. It was the No, there's a bunch of other ones first one that like kind of brought everything together. It kind of the right With the right tech sort of the right mechanics at the right time And it managed to start to you know Get adoption, but it's interesting how long the adoption Curve still took really You know it takes long time like uh, you know add him back. He's inventor of uh, hash cash like I think that was like Fuck like min 90s if I remember You know, I mean like a whole decade earlier Uh than bitcoin and you know, obviously that's referenced to in bitcoin talk forum and uh, you know add him's you know part of that and uh I think it's just timing man. I think there's a bunch of bunch of people trying to do stuff about a decade beforehand and uh Finally through osmosis and trial and error and people reading other like scientists, right people reading other people's works and You know group of people came together my hypothesis. It was a group of people as opposed to one person Yeah came together and uh in the group of people might not even know who they were like I don't think so the group of people knew each other. I think they're just part of this online group and they created the bitcoin white paper rest his history man Mm-hmm. Exactly to me is one of the greatest human inventions of all time like and But one thing they did purposely which is fucking genius so They must have understood human psychology and mythology and religion very well Because they took no ownership Of the white paper. They took no ownership of the project They just left to go they left it for the disciples and they left it from A grassroots movement So there's no there's no figure there's no figurehead the original genesis block out of what it is They're like a couple, you know billions of dollars with the bitcoin. It's locked up over there Uh, everyone can view it, you know, you can see it. Um, so from a psychological mythological standpoint, it's like that's fucking Terrific like you got they knew exactly what they're doing from that aspect Yeah, I mean that's the fun thing kind of about bitcoin is that because there's so much like Mystique around it, I guess uh You don't really know like it could be Sometimes like you go, we've you know, we've seen this in startups, too You're like you make a decision based on your What you're thinking or you just you know push something out there and then it turns into a runaway train later And it wasn't necessarily and that way this is what makes bitcoin so different than anything else is like It doesn't have a figurehead Yeah, and I think that's why it's so powerful in terms of You know, it's key value right censorship doesn't have a figurehead It doesn't have a foundation doesn't have a switzerland non-for-profit It doesn't have any of that stuff and you had people Sinking millions of dollars without any blueprints, you know capital in first to mine bitcoin It's like you had one of the largest opt-in startups Let's call it a startup or you know a movement in history Like it's all opt-in. There's no there's no There's no leadership. There's no one telling you what to do. It's like here. It is like either you can join or you don't have to join It's up to you Yeah, yeah, and I think that is you know outside of censorship resistance. I think that's the other big thing is that It gives you the choice Which currently you don't have with any of your money like you don't have the choice to be your own bank or not right in our current money monetary system and bitcoin has changed that and It's a super powerful thing So we'll see kind of what happens. I guess bringing that back to what we were talking about before with uh Libra, I mean Exciting time to be alive, man. I think We might have a scenario where you end up having A big kind of corporate oligopoly that creates a new next generation of money And maybe bitcoin's a backing part of it. Maybe bitcoin is for people Who want to opt in to being their own bank or having some of their own money? I think at the very least like If libra doesn't get shut down and gets adoption If it stays in Open enough that people can run their own nodes You will see it be a conduit to other cryptocurrencies that are more censorship resistant So cool awesome, man. Well, we'll wrap it up there. Eric if people want to get a hold of you Learn more about what you're doing. What's the best way? Yeah, so I guess I didn't even plug myself Co-founder of bedali log away, bro. This is the time there you go bedali.com. So we're uh building the infrastructure to actually make Crypto usable for payments um You can find our twitter handle is bedali bid ali hq On twitter mine is e krisky k r y s k i Uh hit me up any questions concerns think i'm an idiot Go for it Thanks, brother. Talk to you soon. Okay. Thanks, man