 Aloha and welcome. Welcome to Global Connections. I'm your host, Carlos Juarez. And joining me today is a colleague here at the University of the Americas, Fregla, in Solula, Mexico, Alicia Luis Navarro. Alicia, thank you for joining us here on Global Connections. On the contrary, thank you for the invitation. Yes, and we're talking about a very timely, very important topic, and it deals with the Central American migrant crisis that we have in recent years, in recent months, and it's been accelerated. We're going to look at some different aspects. Often we see the focus on just, I don't know, the border, security, relations, those are certainly important. But there's another dimension that the preacher of research has worked and touched on having to deal more with either psych or social aspects, having to deal with mental health and healthcare of the communities there and so it's a complex set of issues. And what we want to do is unravel some of it for us to help us better understand this crisis. We do have a crisis on the border, but it's not one that, I believe anyhow, it requires a big wall, but it requires a better understanding of the human and the humanitarian aspect, perhaps the psych or social aspect. And so joining me today, recently here at the University, tell us briefly just about your own background, because you're a professor here of psychology, but you've been working now on projects and profits related to migrant communities. Tell us briefly about your own background and your areas of teaching and research. I spent about 15 years in New York City where I completed my graduate studies and I wrote into the understanding first, in general, identity of migrants. But after I studied more into subject, I understood there's many more elements that relate to how migrants not only deal with struggles but how do you identify the perfect mental unscrupulous. It's through their journey, but also on assimilating into a different culture and place. So that's how I started to get more into the study of a current project that I'm launching on the mental health of sentimental migrants as they go through transitions through Mexico on their way to the United States. So again, this topic, of course, is very timely today about migration, but it's a topic that has so many aspects. There's an economic dimension that obviously both pushes and pulled migrants to come, the political aspect in terms of the relations, and even, frankly, the single narrative, that story of why many of them have a lot to do with their own conditions at home, the difficult, both violence and insecurity, lack of opportunity. But of course, the story is also a human one, and that's really what you touch on. The story of these migrants themselves, the challenges they face, a long, long journey because they're talking about Central Americans who venture all the way through Mexico, and make it to the border in the hopes, in many cases, that trying to seek asylum is a challenge because many of them are not easily admitted. They don't have the capacity perhaps to demonstrate that. So we'll talk a little bit about that. But as well, to help us understand it and maybe put it in front of the context, let's take a look. We have a map or two. If you can turn to the first map, it shows us a look at, I believe, just basically some of the border crossings, and this has got some data telling us about what percentage of, or what numbers are crossing there. What's interesting is that it shows us here how the crossing has dropped about eight sentences to that. So it seems to me that I was a little bit more on to the play on. It's a little bit ironic to consider the importance nowadays of building and strengthening the military and building the civil war when the crossing is not so much the main concern. So we see all across the border, there's two countries which is only one of the largest. Yeah, I think about 2,000 U.S. miles. So the largest border between two countries is such a different level of development. We have the U.S. as the first world-developed economy. Mexico, of course, is a country in transition, but in general, a much lower level of development. So there's a constant pull towards that. But as you know, it's very important the crisis is really what has been manufactured in recent days by our president because 20 years ago, we had a much massive flow. It had slowed down. However, the nature of the crisis today has reflected more in the type of development coming. Many families, many women with children, and that presents different challenges. Absolutely. I think that what shifted the focus was what happened massively to your current policy. We'll tell you a little bit about that. This is a new policy that was basically implemented by the Trump administration, essentially that has the effect of separating many of the families, right? I mean, in the late term, what happens is that if one person crosses a non-documentary migrant crosses the border, I mean, it's sustained by border trolls. This person is explaining this process and it's subject to deportation. We need deportation. What happens is now that it's not only economic, young migrants seeking economic opportunities. It's entire families fleeing violence in the Central United States. So at the border, supposedly, the illegal migrants would have to get to the stage and anyone else accompanying this person needs to be put in as an detention center until it's decided what. So basically, by enforcing this zero tolerance, what it means is that suddenly the parent has to be separated and put into a cage. That will be the minors who are accompanying them get separated and it's such a problem. We have seen those images of the detention centers and the conditions of which children are adopted. So very traumatic and obviously things that have a profound impact on their future development not to mention that it was a policy obviously put in place without a lot of forethought because the separation wasn't able to reconnect many families. It's been a desperate effort to try to make them... I mean, there's still people who are in the mingle. Parents have been deported. Their mothers back in their birth are somewhere in a detention center. And there's something that's just that far away, right? New York, Wisconsin, all over the country. Without an ability to tell the parents. I think that one of the issues that it makes to be highlighted there is the lack of interest in terms of representation and information and if we need to provide a translator we want the word signing in some cases. Like, yes, there's kind of all of the deportation that people will sign. Without knowing the deportations of, my kid is not coming. Sign here and guess what? You're going back home suddenly your child is in limbo, isn't it? This is dramatic. The next slide here shows us some data, right? Some information about... Tell us what it was right here. We're talking about this diplomatic experience. For some people it would be the culmination of a very long, struggling journey. It's safe to say. There's people who are playing this, what is called the Northern Triangle, which is comprised of the main three Central American countries, Guatemala, Honduras, and Salvador. The environment is equal to what people have experienced in Iraq and some of the other African countries that are facing civil wars. This region is really the source now of many of the newer immigrants. In many cases families with children and essentially fleeing very difficult violence circumstances back home. Perhaps for another show we can talk about really the root causes of a lot of this. Also stem back from U.S. policies in Central America from the 1970s and 80s, where many refugees came were finding themselves settling in particularly in Washington, D.C., Los Angeles. But a lot of them, whether they were incarcerated, they were then deported. We hear a lot about the MS-13 and others. They learned their trade in the prisons of the U.S. and they were very quickly deported. But I guess my point there is a connection there that we can't deny and need to understand fully. As you said, that's material for a whole potential that the historical relations of intervention of the U.S. and Central American countries who try to prevent communism in the 1980s, not into the insurance violence environment. And of course, again, the other is the actual human story, because these are migrants who are obviously trekking across all of Mexico a very long, long, large country. It takes them, they talk a little bit about the story of what is involved, how long does it take to complete? Yeah. For a migrant coming from Honduras, it would take about four to five days of a journey. Talking through the other Central American countries and landing in Mexico. What's interesting is that in around 2014, the U.S. supported a policy of protecting the southern border of Mexico. So, at some point, the highlight of talking through this train is what's called the BEAST. Which is this long journey that many of them get on top of the train. They're dangerous. They have to be active and fall off. But also, it's a process where they're constantly abused and taken advantage of. There are networks and criminals. It's just like they're carrying a target. You either are affected to just robbery, assault, rape, and extortion. You describe four to five days. That's probably the average. Some of this may take longer. We've seen this recent episode on the caravans. In some ways, it represents an effort to get power in numbers. If they go to groups, they can try to provide funding. Next section, they last three years. There's some very large figures of Central American migrants who were assaulted either in groups and were killed and left abandoned. Or systematically just dropped and they didn't predict. So it seems like this is the time in which people started to organize to say our visibility will keep us safe. Yeah, the power in numbers is essential. And what we see in this time, maybe to the third map we have of Visual Europe, they give you the routes that they will take going through next. We can see several. Of course, many will make the law on track all the way to Tukuan on the border with California. Others will stop and maybe go towards Texas, towards New Mexico, Arizona. And indeed, as we know, there are, of course, fences, other supporters. And that has been strengthened in the last 10, 15 years. But it has also meant now migrants are often moving to some more dangerous areas, more in-law. Yeah. It's probably to know how it would be also their reaction of the Mexican population. And how it would work to trade in the media. And also, messages continue from the current administration and the policies of being bombarded or invaded. When you say the Mexican, I mean, here there's a lot of different aspects of that. Some of it is that many of these often suffer discrimination with the Mexican themselves. It's a scary and heartbreaking sentiment that kind of merges of xenophobia to the American moment. So in this way, some people who were shedding, this is one that there was really the incident as people were getting to a final and to childhood. That just started to go to different aspects. But that also is like a risk. Yeah, I know. But again, it's a human story. I mean, on one hand, instead of billions of things on our wall, we could probably invest millions in helping both the countries themselves develop and address the issues. But even perhaps, for those who seek asylum, a process that might be more ideal managed back in the home site that would help facilitate that. Again, there's no easy answer to who we sometimes think the problem is just solved by a simple figure of building a wall. Clearly, what we need instead are social workers, judges, lawyers, an ability to process what is essentially a human story, a human tragedy. We can move on to the next slide. We'll turn to the next slide. And what are we seeing here? This next one shows us... Just a sense of trying to... Here, what we see here is basically some people who are crowding into a truck. So as they make the journey, they're coming off and they're walking or they're being rife. And this recent trend of the caravan has brought them in big clusters. However, along the way, we see this suddenly getting broken off or separated. There are cases where, you know, young kids that come from the same rural camps at one point... One of them might be able to get on the back of a truck where they're sitting. So they try to keep these contact. But that already took place in some of their cases where few of these things, the most vulnerable people, would be left to the right on the truck. Not quite. There's some mothers that carry small children and they manage to get a stroller along the way. The stroller is important not going to be there. So there's really some, you know, carrying the burden of this along the way. Physical and emotional drain for mothers. So that's some things that are perfect for them. It's a painful process and a story, again, that has such a heart-breaking human side to it. Let's do this because we have a few other things you want to talk to. But we're going to take a very short break right now and come back after a minute. We're talking here with Dr. Patrice Navarro. He's a psychology professor here at the University of the Americas, in Camilo, Pesla, Mexico. And she's been doing some work on understanding some of the challenges, some of the human side of the migration crisis that we see these days. So we're going to come back with more on the story. Please join us here on Global Connections. Hey, loha. My name is Andrew Lanning. I'm the host of Security Matters Hawaii, airing every Wednesday here on Think Tech Hawaii, live from the studios. I'll bring you guests. I'll bring you information about the things in security that matter to keeping you safe, your co-workers safe, your family safe, to keep our community safe. We want to teach you about those things in our industry that may be a little outside of your experience. So please join me on Security Matters. Aloha. Aloha and welcome to At the Crossroads. I'm your host, Keisha King. You can catch me every Wednesday. Alive at five. I'll see you there. I'm Jay Fidel of Think Tech. Our flagship energy show among the six energy shows we have is Hawaii, the state of clean energy. It plays every Wednesday at 4 p.m. Come around and see us. Learn about energy. Keep current on energy. ThinkTechHawaii.com. Aloha and welcome back. Welcome to Global Connections. I'm your host, Paolo Quadis here. joined today by Patricia Ruiz Navarro. She's a psychology professor here in Mexico who works on rate division related to migrants, the crisis that we're seeing unfold now. Many Central Americans that are seeking the crime on me yet. And it's a changing nature of the different patterns of folks. We see today more families with children and the whole separation that we've seen the crisis unfold. And Patricia, of course, you come both from, you know, originally from Mexico, but you have many years here in the U.S. for your studies. You're doctorate in social psychology from City University in New York. Masters in from the New School for Social Research. And that experience, understanding the community is also in New York, for example, a long time because the process of migration, of course, it's been around forever, quite literally. And the complex interdependence of the U.S. and Mexico and Central America, where we have a large source of, on one hand, traditionally migrant workers and there's still on many who continue that pattern. But in recent years, we've seen the changing dynamic of many families now coming with children. And then, you know, basically fleeing a very violent and painful situation back home. It's been a long, long journey. We've been describing going through Mexico, very difficult, gangs, violence, and so on. They get to the border and it's not a piece of cake. Let's talk a little bit about what happens when they arrive there and what are some of the challenges. Well, I think it's very important to highlight that and stress is what refugees mean for economic migration, which traditionally people from Latin America will go and the pilot will be living with people. How much will they continue to do their time for their country? Yes. Nowadays, particularly, but honestly, I think that's very important. So the way that and forgive me if I use this analogy, but what happens of these refugees from the Middle East who are seeking asylum in Europe, they form to the category of refugees. This vaccination is not only requesting with a committee to find later opportunities. It is the same property violence but in the book the laws are very precise and very rigid when it comes to the criteria of who fights for asylum. Violence for coming from overnight crime is not considered a considered the following the category of self-reinforced violence. Therefore, it's very rare that some of the cases go through and are accepted as fine too. So out of the number of cases that are revised per year in the U.S., 60% are rejected. When it comes to people from Central America, 70% are rejected. So that becomes a very alarming when you realize that a lot of these people are not aware that they are even now experiencing one thing at the border. Some of them they don't even have the whole paper that requires access. It seems to be able to make that. If you say it's just violence from the local gang then it's a real violence person that a brother killed and the family harassed but unfortunately it's not the same as a war situation where the state is imposing that. And many of these countries had that in the past and the 70s and 80s had a lot of more formal civil wars or insurgencies. So that presents a challenge. You have people coming all the way and making a check only to find out they're rejected and then they're stepping in because they don't have the money to go back. They don't want to go back because of the reality. So it's a real difficult dilemma for them and interestingly even as they come through Mexico there's been a challenge to the Mexican government here. Some think of how they try to reach out to some of them and offer them opportunity in Mexico but the reality for many is that they're not looking to get to come to Mexico because of the long network of immigration from Central America into the U.S. many of them have family and have other connections but particularly there I think the real humanitarian is that what we've seen now is not just the traditional government that's you know struggling to understand but the way that the U.S. administration and the Trump administration is trying to kind of counterbalance that that's the real policy that is asking the Mexican government to hold them while they're in process but that is what they're looking for and of course for Mexico I mean especially those that have made it all they think they want to there's a situation there now where these shelters are overwhelmed don't have to have to be created a lot of tension there a lot more even violence in some of those border cities in Mexico are already violent places now added to them there's still bit more about this policy because it hasn't been completely clarified but the U.S. government has been pressuring Mexico to sort of serve as a sort of you know building a country that will hold them while they're in process but the challenge is that it's not easy for them to have access to legal rights and information or this corporate of lawyers there's a part that specializes in immigration and to attend to the cases of income and remind on top of the long list of people who are already in the U.S. it is overwhelming and not just to mention the immigration lawyers as described but even within the U.S. the capacity of the official processes literally as I recall Erigan in Tijuana the immigrants themselves have an informal network where they just have a sign up sheet where you put your name down very sort of immersed on its own and yet the time is a very slow time literally months for you to be called because it can only cause there's a small number every day again there's no simply the attitude whether it's in Mexico or the U.S. got it trying to address it I think that what would be a true true country front to contain and the problem would be something that has been discussed in Europe when it comes to board and sharing yes kind of like touristy are like fair failure countries that have to be just transition so European countries are finding ways to show up on distribution and I think that in the sense the U.S. cannot just say no this is not a problem until it's a potential current I'm not just fighting so some people have been sent back to Mexico to wait for their so the turn in Mexico administration has been very clear that they would not accept in 118 which is a lot of a very large location of money on the competition and three years ago was on a massive scale and as you know there was an effort to try and address those countries that are the transit countries mainly Turkey where the European Union has effectively given Turkey a fair amount of money to help help them there I don't see that happening in the U.S. side and really the U.S. wants to address this and maybe you know stop that low probably in the role if Mexico doesn't have a balance to figure out what should it do it's not a big problem and yet like it or not the problem is in Mexico as well with a large large number of governments in the U.S. maybe you finish a city dialogue on this what are some of the challenges in terms of social impact human development especially the young children people are heartbreaking but long term it also has a profound impact on their ability to develop a human development there's this whole idea of attachment the first two three years of life it is so important to have a primary caregiver who says that it's hard to understand when that child is removed from the parents there's a way to get a sense of how to understand the situation so that has already had impact on personality it's it's a traumatic experience it affects the capacity to lay on to build trust and relationships but also the trauma of I don't know at what point I'm going to need from a parent or say it's kind of the limit I mean the situations with kids in the attention center are something from who can I mean it's physical psychological emotional development of concerns that are already looking to by child providers again the challenge is just overwhelming on so many levels and it's a changing pattern of the type of immigrants the separation policies in the U.S. that has created this different type of problem and the challenge that many of these coming are not likely to get in under asylum refugee status because the circumstance while it is very real and violent it doesn't qualify for the criteria that it's a different kind of violence which is quite tragic again no easy solutions but obviously we have to understand the range of complexities and hope for the best and only by putting spotlight on these things and understanding the implications what it means to separate families it requires hopefully the pressure on government leaders to do something better not an easy solution to say the focus on the government to build a wall and there is a need to have the sources of it and I go back to this you know this problem will never be solved unless the conditions back in these host countries the home countries that their money comes they can solve issues of violence there and then development and opportunity it will never be solved the relationship has been in terms of the flow if it's been there for decades it's not going to go away I would maintain that ultimately it's got to be there has to be a process of legal immigration the economy requires it and yet we don't have a debt worker program it does exist for Canada so many come from Mexico and other countries short term employment legally but for the we don't see that in the cards now and that's ultimately the only solution debt worker program and maybe better information so that these families better be for them to understand if that's not happening or if they've got to make the case back home but easier said than done well it's a challenge and if you can help enlighten us about some of these emotional powerful forces and issues as a professor of psychology you have an understanding of this migration issue more from the human side in fact it has the development and the different types of immigrants you see now well I want to thank you this opportunity to talk a little bit more about this important topic for our listeners again to understand that migration is a complex issue social, political, economic so many variables and now we've got also with the cases in Central America you've got this country a transit in between Mexico different places and that's you know well that's the challenge we have we're going to stop on that and we continue to have to have a chance to talk more about different aspects of migration issue because it's going to be with us in time thank you our listeners for joining us I'm here with Dr.