 Hello there, it's Thursday at noon. I know it is Do you remember our arrangement Thursdays at noon on CFUV Are you ready to get started? What do you have in mind? What I want to do now is called first-person plural You make it sound excessively attractive That's what I have in mind Americans say to every Canadian they meet. Hey, I know a Canadian named so-and-so Do you know him seems a little absurd? But we've noted since being in Canada that the degrees of separation between two people seems smaller than in the country immediately to the south Which has nine times the population here is a case in point a new Canadian friend We met in December started telling us of her time in Grenada as an intern with the Canadian International Development Agency Also known as CEDA youth program upon introducing her to another friend when we knew had spent time In Panama we discovered that the Panama internship was also sponsored by CEDA We then discovered that a third friend a filmmaker produced a film funded by CEDA about a Guatemalan activist Heather McCandrew's film the man we called Juan Carlos put faces and feelings upon events about which we as North Americans Learned little during the 1980s McCandrew's film is more relevant than ever as George W. Bush continues to build his war machine in the Middle East The rhetoric around Bush's doctrine has been that America has never made regime change an Explicit goal before perhaps it has not done so explicitly But one need only ask a Guatemalan a Panamanian or a Grenadine About the post World War two United States participation in changes in their governments We mentioned these three countries Not because they are the only examples of US intervention in the affairs of other countries But because each of our three friends had a connection to these countries through CEDA CEDA's international youth internship program was created in 1997 to send college graduates to developing countries for meaningful employment and working towards a development project The purpose is to fold first to enable young adults to have the opportunity to learn more about Sustainable development within their field of training and second to encourage sustainable development in impoverished countries the internships are created in partnership That provide the money and the security to keep interns in a country for six months It was one of these internships that led our friends Saramemic to Grenada to provide training in ecotourism today on first-person plural Sarah shares her stories up in her impressions of CEDA's internship program We thought it was important to share Heather's story and Sarah's story with our listeners this week because the mainstream media is Focused upon the US war machine to the exclusion of all other issues It may seem that these stories have nothing to do with the events that are unfolding in the Middle East But we believe they represent an alternative to the war machine These three experiences by our Canadian friends So kind of thinking this week about the world Canadians and Americans playing in the larger world picture Understanding the global village as a place where people can help people rather than where markets are developed and exploited is the kind of Globalization that can lead to peace and tolerance More and endless cycles of It is that kind of globalization that we are examining in this week's episode of our support called three degrees of separation Much has made these days about quote globalization close quote The word evokes the specter of multinational corporations picking and choosing from the least empowered of workforces to make items for consumption by greedy North Americans The North Americans in this cosmology give little thought to the suffering the production and disposal of the items Create in the lives of other people on the planet The greediest among us see globalization as a means to maximize profit either through exploitation of such workforces Or the so-called quote opening of new markets close quote Which often is cultural genocide masked as expanding capitalism The power mongers among us see globalization as a way to keep developing countries in their place so to speak and Dependent upon more developed countries Much has been produced about the abuses and shortcomings of the World Bank Group and Its role in these power games especially in relationship to the World Trade Organization and the so-called quote group of eight close quote The mainstream media calls the protesters at WTO events anti-globalization This is a misnomer Many of the protesters believe in a global view of the world, but their vision differs from that of the corporations Globalization they argue can happen without the exploitation and in ways that are respectful of diversity and local culture Those among us who are neither protesters against the greeting and powerful Nor greeting and powerful ourselves Often fall into a glazed stupor when discussions of globalization ensue These are big issues with large consequences that seem out of reach some of us recycle Think about the impact of our vehicles on the environment and maybe even avoid buying products We know were produced by slave labor or near slave labor in certain countries But to spend time and effort understanding these larger-than-life forces is Overwhelming and seemingly irrelevant to our daily lives We forget that it is persons who are being hurt We are taught to think in terms of ethnicities or nationalities Rather than in terms of human beings It is easier to dismiss the plights of the quote Guatemalan's close quote Than it is to think about families being torn apart livelihoods being stripped and lives being scarred forever Heather McCandrew's film the man we called Juan Carlos Put faces and feelings upon events about which we as North Americans learned little during the 1980s Reminiscent of Stephanie Black's film life and debt the documentary about the so-called free enterprise zones in Jamaica McCandrew mixes the personal with the political in her meditation on the ways in which the filming and documentary work She and her partner David spring bet did in Guatemala Interacted with the life work of linsa slough Armira a farmer and activist a guerrilla warrior and later a Mayan priest Heather's life and linsa saws life intertwined on several occasions even though they never met in person and these connections had consequences that neither anticipated By presenting personal history along with the biographical milestones of Armira McCandrew pushes the viewer into an understanding of this man's humanity as well as the incredible Divergence of what it meant to grow up as a middle-class Canadian versus a poor Mayan farmer in Guatemala But the film is not a guilt fest McCandrew doesn't settle for the cheap version of these encounters where middle-class people are led to believe That if they just change their eating habits life will be better for the starving children in some distant land The picture McCandrew paints is much more complex and layered Grounded in history and experience Rather than politics and ideology When saslaus and packed on Heather's life as a documentary filmmaker is profound The story is about a Guatemalan farmer who with the help of an organization from the United States called World Neighbors Began finding ways to improve the plight of the local subsistence farmers through better techniques of growing corn As the local village began to learn how to take control of their land and their farming they began to pull themselves out of poverty Amira's methods were becoming well-known in Central America and Delegations of other subsistence farmers found their way to his village to learn his farming techniques It was these techniques that led to the first documentary film about Amira in 1976 by McCandrew's partner spring vet The shooting McCandrew did for this documentary was her first documentary work It was a change she described in the film as one from being active in social justice causes To being a documenter of social justice causes Something that had advantages and disadvantages in her mind While the documentary is in production world neighbors assisted Amira's village in the acquisition of more land So that they could expand their farms and increase their livelihood In other words, they were successfully developing The rhetoric of organizations such as the World Bank Group Suggests that this effort should have been regarded as a resounding success their website states Quote we believe that people who live in poverty should not be treated as a liability But rather as a creative asset that will contribute more than anyone else to the eradication of poverty An empowering approach to poverty reduction puts poor people at the center of development and Creates the conditions that enable poor men and women to gain increased control over their lives Through access to information inclusion and participation Accountability and local organizational capacity close quote however The guanamalain government installed through a us-backed coup just a few years before this effort Felt threatened by the acquisition of land by Mayan farmers in the 1960s for a short time a Democratic socialist government in Guatemala began a redistribution of land from the few Spanish landowners to the Mayans Even though this acquisition of land by Amira's village was through the market and not through any state sponsored program It was labeled as communist The threat to the Mayans was so real that when the film was distributed Amira's identity was concealed Through the pseudonym Juan Carlos This simple farmer who figured out a better way to grow his crops Feed his village and bring himself his family and his neighbors out of poverty Was now ipso facto an enemy of the state and a politically controversial figure By 1984 Villages had been destroyed and burned land had been seized by the quote government close quote Mayans had been kidnapped and killed at the hands of the quote government close quote and Amira had become a guerrilla warrior He was in exile in Mexico City when McAndrew and spring bet were invited to interview him once again The complexities of North America's relationship to the oppression of the Mayans made it impossible for the interview film to 1984 To be produced and distributed The oppression felt in Guatemala was evident in Canada as well and this connection is not lost on McAndrew Information control in North America contributed to the pain and suffering felt by Amira and his fellow Mayans As Americans watching this film We found the most poignant moment to be during a later interview where Amira notes the irony that it was Americans who came and helped them learn better farming techniques and assisted them In acquiring more land But it was other Americans who gave their government the weapons and firepower to strip them of their land and livelihoods and kill them And their children Roger Bunch an American from world neighbors Summed up the feeling best when he said I used to be proud to be an American now. I'm not in the end McAndrew's the man we called one Carlos is as much a story of Development and the complexities of solving poverty problems in a world in which poverty serves the needs of a power class as It is about the intertwining of her life with that of the Guatemalan farmer The film puts flesh and bones on complicated issues of development environment war power and market exchange It indicts the efforts of developed countries in which there are factions who at least claim to care about Creating development, but in which there are also factions that just want to increase their own power and dominance Some overlap exists between factions of the first sort and factions of the second sort The film suggests that ordinary citizens working on these problems in local spaces Have a lot more to offer in solutions than sweeping government or international policies Much was made during the 1980s about how the strong stance Reagan took regarding the Soviet Union Led to the end of the Cold War We don't believe this is the whole story During the 1980s a number of people decided that the only way to end the escalation of nuclear power Was for ordinary citizens to get to know each other Delegations of Russian and US citizens travel to each other's countries and talked to each other Phil Donahue and CNN held quote Global town meetings close quote between citizens of the two countries The citizens thus empowered engaged in lively debates, which were shown on national television in both countries The citizen diplomacy put pressure on both governments to find a different way to relate to each other It also uncovered misleading rhetoric No one can really say how much of the Cold War was caused by the quote evil empire closed quote rhetoric of the American government and How much was caused by the simple exchange of human beings who chose to know their enemies as people Rather than as carriers of ideologies But we suspect that the latter had more to do the collapse of the Berlin Wall than the politicians want us to believe You're listening to first-person plural on CFUV Victoria's Public Radio 101.9 FM 104.3 cable and on the internet CFUV.uvig.ca Giving sociology an edge What's a little bit about your background? Well, I went to school in northern Ontario and I studied outdoor recreation parks and tourism and then I Came back to Victoria and I studied public administration So I have a background in recreation activities and and tourism and ecotourism and my interests are basically the same thing community development community education and conservation environmental activities nature Did you do any work here in Canada in any of those areas before you left on your internship? I did when I was taking my master's at UVic. We did co-ops and I worked for the government and a number of environmental tourism related areas. I worked for Ministry of environment lands and parks and we did kind of revision of a policy for commercial recreation operators out in The back country and our crown land and then I also worked for BC parks for a while And I worked for an organization called Grand Thor and then we did the tourism research and consulting and We had a few ecotourism Projects that we worked on as well. How did you Decide to do this internship? I mean what was sort of what was the process when you're finished with school and Looking around and what made you think this is what I want to do Well, I always wanted to travel and I wanted to travel and also Not just kind of visit one place and go from one place to the next but to get more involved in the community and learn more about the different places that I was in and I Was always interested in ecotourism So and I knew that CEDA offered different internships to do this to gain international experience in the area that you wanted to eventually work in and at the same time Well travel and learn about a new culture so I think I had heard from a friend that CEDA offered his internship so I just started reviewing the website to see which ones were available and The ones that fit my background which were kind of ecotourism Administration through my masters were the ones that I applied to and how long did the process take and applying For me not too long. I think I applied maybe In in a January and then I heard back from the organization in March so a couple months. Oh, that's a bad thing. It all depends on the organization because the internships usually consist of working for a Canadian Organization and then you do an international component to it So for instance, I worked four months in British Columbia before I went overseas So it depends on the organization that you're applying to to do the internship with Give us some background about Grenada. What kind of work did you do there and how successful was the program? Well, I when I went over my Kind of responsibilities or main responsibilities were to help with the training program. They were training youth in conservation and community-based tourism So when I went over I worked with one of the locals there to To kind of teach the youth about the flora fauna in the area how they could develop ecotourism activities in the communities and the benefits of ecotourism Okay, so you were checking that you did stuff with ecotourism training youth benefits and disadvantages and How the community can promote more ecotourism more is a sustainable activity. So and a conservation activity rather than the actual industry in itself so making the community more sustained sustainable in itself and also Promoting community development so alternatives to different economic Industries for gaining revenue. I guess for the community. So we also I also did computer literacy training for the youth. So The community I was in they had maybe one or two one or two personal computers and then the kids had access to computers to the schools, but it was really limited. So we basically designed a computer literacy course and conducted it with the youth Now what kind of You're talking about the community. Tell me a little bit about Grenada's Like where you worked at and sort of the economy of Grenada and what's going on there I mean, are they significantly less developed than Canada is it Just to be an idea of what it's like there. Well, it's a very small country. There's Maybe approximately 90,000 people in total. So there's three kind of main islands One is the main island of Grenada itself and then there's two Smaller islands one is called Kerry King and the other one is Petit Martinique and Kerry Q was the one where I was located And that's about 6,000 people. So it was a really small Island where I was in terms of economy It's well, a lot of people might know Grenada also is the Isle of Spice Because one of their main economic activities is agriculture and they do a lot of exporting the spices such as nutmeg and mace and While they also export and bananas and cocoa, but they also do a lot of fishing and tourism is a main Economic industry as well. Are they Moving forward. I mean, is it a fairly positive place right now or is it very depressed? What's the sort of economic climate there? I think economically, they're moving forward I think for one thing a lot of foreign aid, especially from Canada and from Sega So I think I didn't know that notice personally that much of a difference economically. I think if And I don't necessarily have expertise to judge but maybe where I would say It's more considered a developing country is is socially Compared to economically Another thing is that a lot of people from Grenada a lot of Families come over to the United States and Canada and England to work And so they send a lot of money back to their families in Grenada to help support So that's another main kind of source of income for the communities in Grenada Of course most people in the United States remember Grenada because of the so-called rescue That happened in the early 80s. How did that affect going near as you know, somebody from Canada Somebody who's associated with North America. Does is there a kind of history there with North Americans that sort of gave a context? Well, I think definitely the revolution in the early 80s is still talked about and it's still very prominent on the minds of Grenadians, I think as a Canadian it didn't affect me so much like I would discuss the issues and the events with people Grenada But I think because I'm Canadian there wasn't as much of An issue, but I know One thing they have in Grenada is they have a medical medical school, which is American and there's There's still some kind of conflict between the medical students and the Grenadians themselves I don't know if it goes goes back to the revolution, but I think or if it's because of issues now There's not necessarily that much integration between the two but It's it's there. So the events that happen in the early 80s are still very much What's a major language there English English is the language they speak English but a lot of Grenadians especially the older generations speak a little bit of Patois, which is Kind of an older version of French and the native language interesting And is that the history of Grenada? It was French colony at first. It was first settled by the French and then I think the British came and then they Kind of lived there together the British and the French and then eventually the British Expanded and I think there was a treaty signed for the British Grenada and then Grenada gained independence in 1974 You stayed beyond the duration of your internship When you were in Grenada, is that right? Yes, that's right my internship was originally for five and a half months in Grenada with Seedah funding and through my organization here, and then I stayed beyond another six months there on my own as my own kind of volunteer with my own The reason I did that is because this was for my personal project. I felt after About five and a half months when my internship was officially being in and I just kind of felt like I had just gotten going with the youth I established a relationship with them a trusting relationship, and we were just starting to kind of go deeper into more of the training and it wasn't Actually quite finished then if I left the training so would have gone on with the other trainers the local trainer from Grenada and other staff in the organization, so I wanted to complete the training and Also the organization that I was working with was starting new projects They do a variety of different projects and one of the ones that they would start was sea turtle conservation And that seasonal because of when the sea turtles come up to nest on the beach So I wanted to stay and learn more about that You're listening to first-person plural today We are addressing the question of how the word globalization could be redefined as a means for ending poverty and creating sustainable development Stay tuned for the remainder of Sarah mimics Grenada's story and our Meditations on how small the world is in which we live if you measure it by interpersonal connections now back to three degrees of separation Today Block off the nest the way they do in Florida With the sea turtles so that they protect the eggs When they come up on the beach and lay the eggs and have people who watch them their sea turtle watches in Florida So I'm a little bit familiar and that's one of the things are they're doing I don't carry a few to and also on grenade and other parts of Grenada Is that they're trying to promote sea turtle watching as an ecotourism activity And they also monitor them. So we would go out at night and we would monitor the sea turtles and we would Tag them so we could track more of their half like their behavior and also Just do more research. So we would count the eggs We would determine where on the beach they would lay if they would come back in a couple weeks to lay more eggs and That kind of data Do they have a 24 hour watch going on with the eggs to protect them We we didn't the project where I was was just getting off the ground. They were just starting to Do more sea turtle conservation work, but I know that different Organizations around with therapy and different projects actually do that. They're they're becoming quite Extensive it's a pretty popular activity in Florida now Okay They along the beaches in Florida You can see during the season they have Tape around to make sure that anybody using the beach nose not to go in that area And then they have somebody who just comes out there in the lawn chair and takes shifts and on just kind of keeps a watch over So that when the eggs actually hatch and the turtles go back in One of the problems they had against was with lighting on the beach the turtles were turning towards the lighting Yeah, rather than going back out to sea. Yeah, and they needed to go to sea immediately or they were gonna Not survive exactly that's the hatchlings. Yeah, because when they when they hatch normally or when there was not any development on the beach or on the coastal line that The the hatchlings recognize the horizon of the sea because it's lighter than inland so they would Like instinctively go towards the water and now because of some of the stronger lights Yeah, they go inland which is Dangerous deadly Yeah, exactly. So I know in most of the beach towns now in Florida There are laws about where the lighting goes and any lighting is directed away from the beach So the beaches are much darker now than they used to be. Yeah, and with the turtle watches. They also Help ensure that the turtles go in the right direction if something happens Yeah, they're like black in the light and try to get them to sort of hurt them back towards the ocean Mm-hmm, and that's just one of the threats like there's so many different threats to the sea turtles now both in the water and then also like another one is Car tracks on the beach a lot of the driving the hatchlings They get stuck in the tracks the car tracks and they can't get out so that they die of maybe Dehydration or a predator a bird will catch it and so there's there's a lot of different factors and different reasons why We're promoting conservation and we would monitor at night But I think one of the things that's happening now is a lot of volunteers are coming from all over the world to try And help out with the projects And that actually is gonna be my next question when you talk about ecotourism What kinds of I mean where are these people coming from to go there and participate in this and how do the locals interact with those people? I mean are they creating? Like other kinds of things I would assume lodging would come up and transportation So how does that benefit the local economy to have these people come in and do what they're doing? Well for ecotourism We what we did on Kerry Q is there was a local guy who would who would bring the tourists out? Tourists would come from all over the world Most of them would come to Kerry Q for the Caribbean experience so beach and sun and Sand and then they would stay at a local hotel or a local guest house on the island And then they would Come turtle watching at night and there was local guys who would take them out and show them the beach and then explain about the Behavior of the turtle coming up and it's amazing to see the turtle emerge from from the ocean and then to lay its eggs It's really an interesting experience And then they would also learn about the different ecosystem on the beach and the different animals and Yeah So the exchange is not just These people coming and doing something for the local ecosystem they also bring back the experiences of learning about that ecosystem and Yeah, the wonder if you will of seeing these things in action. So there's there is a definite exchange going on. It's not Ta-da, we have showed up to save the day. Yeah and save your turtles for you. No, it's definitely not. Yeah One of the things that I was concerned about when you first told me about this kind of program and something that I'd like you to kind of address for me is that There's there's always been among Europeans and North Americans this kind of send your youth out to exotic places For their coming of age if you will and in the past and I mean in the distant past as well as the recent past that has involved a certain amount of of an imperialistic agenda in some ways and There's been criticism About programs Walking in the door and educating people and bringing Capitalism bringing Western culture and sort of obliterating the culture where you go to Because I know you and because I've looked a little bit on the website I get a different feeling about these internships and I wondered if you could tell me How it's different how what you did is not Canadians showing up teaching Canadianism or North Americanism or capitalism to Grenadians, how is it different from this kind of imperialistic past? Well, I think definitely there is some element of that still and I don't and I think it depends on the project And I think it also depends on the person and the organization and how the project is being I definitely tried not to do that and One of the things that I tried to do is you need to be very open that it's a two-way exchange That and I think in a lot of this I probably learned a lot more than some of the locals there or some of the youth from me I Think that what I tried to do is I didn't I tried just to teach generally what I knew about ecotourism in general and the more specific information about the Flora and fauna and the Ecosystems on Kerry Q would come from the local trainers that we were working with One of the things I tried to do too is is really build a relationship with the students or the youth that I worked with so we would get to know each other one on one and as just as people and I and I think that That really helped and that's one of the reasons why I didn't want to leave after five and a half Months because because I wanted to continue with the relationship Did your agenda change while you were there? Because of this response and the two-way thing like you came with a certain idea about what ecotourism would and would not be But did it evolve in this exchange to become something different than what you imagined before you got there For me it definitely did. I think that I learned a lot more about ecotourism in the community sense and it's living on a small island in a small community how it wasn't just about ecotourism in itself It was more about community development Sustainable development for our community. So it wasn't necessarily just about ecotourism Itself and that ecotourism was just an alternative to the community For using their resources that would remain longer for in a more sustainable manner Yeah So it was an evolution that kind of took place And I think for me I actually saw it in action like it would first hand rather than More just because of my background more doing research on it and learning about it kind of in schools So and I know that a lot of people have different ideas of what ecotourism is and I think that Some people try and stay away from the word but what I like most about my learning experiences I learned more about community-based ecotourism how the community the different organizations Interact and link together in the more of a network then an operation on its own so The different operations would try and support each other So maybe a visitor would come in on the ferry that would then use a local taxi or a local bus To bring them to the hotel. So each of the different organizations would benefit in some way Why would you recommend that young people pursue these kinds of internships? What benefits do Canadians receive from working abroad in such countries? Well, I think for you, it's a great experience. I think you get international experience learning about different cultures learning about different ways In which the world works different perspectives on life and communities so I and I think that that's important just to kind of look at the world and to and Where you live with a more broader perspective. So you kind of get an outside look a more objective look at What you're doing in your own country when you see something different. I think also it's Great if you want to go in I think now because the world is global if you want to go most of What we do in the industries in Canada have some kind of international impact. We really appreciate your time. Okay Yeah, thanks a lot for dropping by First person Your source The police state is using its fallow-centric organ the corporate media to control Ordinary people like you For those of you unaware of the rules of six degrees of Kevin Bacon, I'd like to outline them for you now Six degrees of Kevin Bacon is a game that attempts to link actor Kevin Bacon to any other actor who has appeared in a film By noting that he was either in a film with Kevin Bacon Or in a film with someone who was in a film with Kevin Bacon Or in a film with someone who was in a film with someone who was in a film with Kevin Bacon and So on up to six degrees of separation hence the name of the game For example Donald saw the one is first degree in this game because he was in animal house with Kevin Bacon He was also in JFK with Kevin Bacon The theory was for some time that anybody who had been in a movie could be linked to Kevin Bacon in six degrees or less Recently examples of seven and eight degree actors have come to light this from the internet movie database at IMDb.com Actors not within the internet movie database are not considered But so far the maximum degrees of separation that any actor has achieved if that is the word here has been eight So do you know how that game came into existence a Couple of board college students were sitting around and decided to mock Kevin Bacon by putting him at the center of a cosmology But do you know why they figured out this six degrees part? Was there a theoretical grounding there was an anthropological grounding Well, let's hear about it Turns out there's an anthropologist Who did an experiment? He had a theory that There are only six degrees of separation between any one person on earth and any other person on earth That is if you wanted to meet a person it shouldn't take you Linking to them more than through six people He tested this theory by going out to the Midwest and recruiting a thousand participants who Were asked to write a letter to a divinity student at Harvard if they knew him If they didn't know the students that they were told of But suspected that they knew somebody who might know him they were asked to write a letter to the person that they thought might know him and Ask that person to either write a letter to him or write a letter to somebody that they thought might know him Eventually a letter arrived at the divinity students mailbox and When that letter arrived they were asked to put all the other letters that came in it so that you could see how many letters It took to get to the divinity student The average number of letters that it took to get to the divinity student was four That was the average Yes So some people took a little bit longer a lot of people took a lot less and an averaged out to four letters per person in the Midwest to Get to the divinity student All of this is apropos to our title for this week's episode, which is three degrees of separation Many of you are thinking but isn't the expression supposed to be six degrees of separation and We picked three degrees because we had these three friends Who didn't know each other who All had similar experiences who connected through us and And we in turn connect through them To three parts of the world that we haven't given a lot of thought of before technically those are not degrees of separation One is quick to point out But one is also quick to point out that we didn't care when we came up with the title for this episode We simply wanted to pick a number other than six to avoid shall we say interesting situations from arising Well, the other thing is that I think that there are fewer degrees of separation between people in Canada Than there are between people in the US It's been interesting to me to see how many people I meet who knows somebody who knows somebody that I know in Canada It's also been interesting to me that I've already met two cabinet members and I have spent the first 40 some odd years of my life in the United States and Met only one person from the Senate and nobody from the executive branch When you say the cabinet you mean the Canadian federal cabinet and you mean from the sitting government not former cabinet ministers the point is I feel like even in the two short years that I've been in Canada that I'm closer to The federal government than I ever was in the United States The world is a smaller place than a lot of us think that when we talk about globalization when we talk about these big issues we usually think about them in very macro terms with discussions about policy and discussions about big budgets with Billions and trillions of dollars and them and that kind of thing and the truth of the matter is There's an awful lot going on on a micro level There are people traveling across borders all of the time and when they move around like that a lot of them go with very Humanitarian reasons and when they get to where they're going they do good things and make connections real connections with real human beings and Those connections do affect these bigger issues one of the ways that wars and Conflicts develop is by depersonalizing and isolating populations and the reason that Governments like to Depersonalize and isolate is because it's a hell of a lot harder to go rah rah. Let's go kill people that you know It's less convenient in any case I mean not as many embarrassing situations would arise. I'd guess Yeah, it's hard to imagine, you know, it's one thing to imagine Attacking some place where you don't know anybody But it's a whole other thing to imagine attacking a place where you have friends where you have relatives where you have Met people and known people at least like the people that you're about ready to attack Is there a sociologically popular term for the tendency of people to blame things on those who are out of the room at the moment? we have a tendency to Look at who we are by deciding who the other is and so it is Important to distinguish who is out of the room and who is in the room so to speak and we define Who is in the room often by who is excluded? Instead of looking around and going this is who we are we often say this is who we are not so we're freedom-loving people and they are terrorists we're Democracy-loving people and they are Living in tyranny and all of this is by definition It's not that people with these characteristics are placed into the appropriate groups. It's that these characteristics are assigned to The in-group and the out-group after the fact Sure after assignment of individuals to each group occurs, right? It isn't necessarily Assigning to individuals as much as it's assigning to groups. This is a more subtle point though It's the tendency of someone who is present to fight back when he's accused of something It is safe for any word to blame people who are not present Sure, but I see the overlap between the concepts. Yes They're out of the room. They're out of the group. It makes sense to Be upset with them Yeah, I just saw the animal farm the movie animal farm or a movie rendition of it. I think it was a 1999 version with Muppets as part of the animals, but The Muppets did a movie version of animal. No Jim Henson Provided the puppetry they look like animals. They didn't look like the Muppets there's a character in animal farm called snowball and one of the ways that the the pigs Came into power and kept power over the other animals at the animal farm was to talk about who was Doing snowballs work and who was friends with snowball and who was agents for snowball and so forth and that kind of Painting of the enemy and Association with the enemy is a way of defining who we who is who Who is on the end group who is on the out group the subtext being nothing other than that which serves this? Discourse or this paradigm could be worthwhile the idea of considering new ideas It's completely out the window at that point. Yes The way to break that down or hack into that kind of thinking is for people to Get to know each other That once people begin to connect they begin to see their similarities as well as their differences And they begin to create a more complex picture of each other It no longer is easy to cast people in one role or the other to cast groups in one role or the other You have been listening to first person plural Because how people get along with each other still matters First person plural is a show created for community radio by Carl Wilkerson and dr. Patty Thomas to examine social and organizational issues music for first person plural is Performed composed and produced by Carl Wilkerson except where noted For more information about first person plural dr. Patty Thomas or Carl Wilkerson visit our website www.culturalconstructioncompany.com or email us at FPP at culturalconstructioncompany.com