 Hi folks. We'll get started in a couple of minutes. If you can add your name and any agenda items for the meeting next. We appreciate it. All right. Well, let's see. I'm going to open my screen. Does anyone have any agenda items to add that they haven't already had it verbally call it out. If you don't hear me, I may have knocked my audio out. No, we can hear you. I hit the truth and I hit something else. I thought it went away. All right. Does anyone have anything for today? Probably one of the things that I want, just as you mentioned, during the coupon was, at least I have multiple times this video documentation system. So I don't know is like, we should just take a look of some of the things that began it from that system and implementing in this working group. So, seems like some of the products are using it. So to improve the way that we documented or extract through the combination. All right. Anything else. Does anyone have anything else. Hi Tom. I have got a question, although I don't know if it's been covered elsewhere, which is what the next steps are for the CNF certification. So do we need to work to get people involved? Or is there any early feedback from people trying it out or anything? Okay, so I'll jump in then. The Co-Chair nominations are officially still open. We haven't had many. We've only have a few responses. I've asked, we want to do voting on the folks that have come in, even though there's only a few there. And last time that was Bill Mulligan who set that up. So I've asked him to show us what he did, otherwise we'll set something up somewhere to go through the voting. But if you want to put your name in or know someone who might want to recommend someone and reach out to him, ask him to put their name in to the mailing list. And we'll probably do votes, have them ready by next Monday so that everyone can go in and do that process. If you haven't taken the survey, please take this Toco Focus Microsurvey so that CNCF can get feedback. Pass it out. We want to get as much feedback CNCF as possible so they're hearing what's important. And let's see. This week, I guess is a, I think there's an elephant conference that's going this week and next week is open source summit. So if folks know of any good talks happening this week or next week, then please add them to the document so that we can reference them and other people can see it. All right, Victor, tell us about Divya, you want to have the screen share? Well, I didn't have any, I mean, prepare like just her like least twice in doing the QPCON. So it seems like it's a new way to structure the documentation. The QPC provides to you as practices and divide, depending on the audience or like what are you trying to explain. So in this case it's, depending on the audience, you can provide like tutorials, reference or like, for example, for tutorials are like very specific just a step by step guide or things like the documentation is written. So, as in general, like the system tried to structure the documentation in four different categories for their understanding and I use it. So, for certain things like I provide to you recommendations, like a specific for like tutorials are like very, very specific set of steps to provide. So I know that in our case we are not provide tutorials or things like that but yeah, maybe, or things like, I don't know how to guide or maybe explanations. So we can take to you of the recommendations that are making this system. Another session that I attended in the QPCON was the presenter was explained to you of the other recommendation we're not specific about this evil system, but he was also providing some suggestions in a way that document things. I can look for my notes and try to see if I can think or find what was the session or what was recorded, but at least the evil system was mentioned in multiple sessions in the QPCON. Does it, I'm trying to, there's no here's how to get started that I'm saying. And I'm wondering, like, are we going to write and mark down as it's. No, well, this is more like the content, how the content has to be structured. I think that to the start is like the video that you didn't play it but it's a good summary like what he he was trying to accomplish. The rest of the things like the tools that you use like markdown or like I think that there is another you markdown like markdown dogs or mark dogs or something like that. Yeah, he doesn't mirror in this case, this is more like the way the documentation documentation or the content of the communication has to interact with structure. So I just think that you have to take a look. Yeah, I mean it sounds good I mean we've kind of thrown some stuff together with regards to some of the structure like the this where we wanted to put practices, you know there's not much here right now but I think Robbie was the event originally put this in. Sounds good to maybe talk about a little bit of the structure. As we're moving forward might be relevant also for Tom's question as far as like what's next and related the certification and stuff like that. Use cases and user stories we ran into some times where like this one is. This is a combination of use cases and user stories short versions of each versus the use case we had some very specific ones and then some that are more extensive. That could kind of tie in with where do you find these things is probably should all be under the doc directory anyways but as we add more content it's going to be harder to find and where to work and people contribute. If you can maybe post some more links in here regarding where they examples and stuff that we can look at and how to get started and so that we can think about how it would directly apply to the CNF working group into. Yep, yep, I can do that. I mean, at the Buddhist, at least I started with the video and the video is the explanation of the author of this system where he is a quick video where he explained all the goals and all the things. It's a good start like. But yeah I can I can provide that. Different like that. Now this is cool. Taylor seems like you are on mute. Oh I guess I am on mute. Yes, that sounds great Victor so. Yeah, any anything you provide around it, including if you have ideas like. An example skeleton of here some ways that it could be applied for use cases and user stories or the best practice or whatever you're thinking. So that we have some ideas there and that might. Some of the organization if we can get this, and if it's, it may be helpful that for people that want to contribute but don't know how to get started. Hey, oh, I was going to chime in. Go ahead there. Hey, how are you. Hey, Victor. Others is my first time attending. Nice to connect to some of you. I guess to Victor's point around documentation and and your comments around increasing visibility of it will for use cases and the growing complexity that we foresee a lot of these documentation sites there is usually some static generator where much like that Divio site there is a website that is generated from the repo. Is there something okay, is there is there something similar being done with the repo today because that might be one way to kind of leverage as documentation grows and complexity increases around it and we start to leverage things like the these best practices for documentation that that would make it more accessible and human readable rather than trying to navigate like a repo. I think there's a balance that we got to have with the Kubernetes and CNC F community on folks that like to work out of a repo and the markdown and everything and then people that are happy to have the external and the people willing to maintain either or both. But I'm, you know, we've talked about having something that could generate. I don't know how to get over the etiquette docs, Tom, but let's see, what's the best way, and a kid. Go ahead, Ariel. So it's CNT T dot read the docs.org. There you go. Right. And I believe some of those things are triggered, like you wouldn't have to write twice right the idea is that you're taking the same content and just publishing it to different places so I believe I forget what we use in the past but it could be triggered on a commit to or emerge into the master branch where it would automatically generate the. Yeah, an update. Exactly. So, so, so these ones the etiquette docs are done using read the docs, the SAS platform. I know other projects use get our pages so we wouldn't even need to do any kind of work with with read the docs or the Sphinx build process or anything we just turn on get our pages within our repo. We use the path that we want to have built in that static way. And then, as you say, it's just, you know, we change content. It's reflected in the HTML within a minute. Cloud Native Principles site, this networking cloud. It's using get book, which is a similar so you, you're going to put everything in GitHub and it automatically any updates or commits are going to generate it so totally down for that if we can make it simple. The big thing is what are people willing to do. And I'm not personally wanting to switch over to a completely different language, separate from markdown, like a markup language, like I don't want to start writing, I don't know, whatever it would be. Yeah, RSP, put it right in XML, that's going to generate it that way. I mean, if someone else wants to write it all and convert it and I'm willing to add content to it, but I probably wouldn't be down for being a part of the conversion myself. But if it's something that we can keep. We can just make some modifications I believe in the past I don't know what the current is Tom. In the past there was, it wasn't completely compatible with with standard markdown and there was quite a bit of problems with some, some things. But the CNF working group already has a lot of pre, pre merge test for markdown. So we're pretty good on that side. So I think that pretty, pretty much any system that builds off of markdown, we would have a good base for. Yeah, yeah. So with the, with the read the docs thing because it uses Sphinx, it expects standard markdown, GitHub has its own flavor of markdown, but GitHub pages, which is the kind of GitHub static web hosting thing is obviously completely aware of and supports their own flavor of markdown so I've used both, both are fine with the markdown that we use. I'm happy to sort of put together an example, using our pages just to show how easy it is if that would help. All right. I think some of the benefit that we get from there is when you talk about some of those things that are maybe like buried away, or that it's difficult. But as we look here at the, at the, the table of contents of the navigation is as an end user when I come here, and I'm coming for a specific use case, let's say, or a specific practice or some document all of a sudden by having the navigation. I have a high level kind of view into what's included here in a way that when I'm just navigating the repo. I may not have that. I may not have that that mechanism for discovery available in the same way. Yeah, I would argue that I'm okay with that in general, I would argue that it's just a medium though, and it's really how much effort are people going to put into it because I can make. It kind of forces you as the only thing. These read the docs and get book it auto generates some of that stuff so if people aren't creating it, it's going to kind of force you there and it expects you to have a few files named a certain things. But you can do all of those things like you can have your front read me have a table of contents, and it just pushes you down. It's more of, are you going to make the effort to actually organize your things which I think goes back to what Victor is saying as far as being thoughtful about who are your end users and how are they coming in. Right now the newest Anakin docs looks better than I can tell Tom that they've been updated. There it's it's nicer to come in at this point, then it was in the past. Yeah, they've three where you are, and that's not because of the medium this is a little bit on the being thoughtful about where they come in and what may they care about. We're still going to need to do that in the working group so when you come in here. And, you know, how do how do you get started what do they want to do people that are being sent here. What do they want to do, you know, a lot of people don't put stuff here we don't. Rather than you can click the read me but you can actually put links and stuff here in these people are going to still make their way to the repo. So I think being thoughtful about what do the end users care about. We need to do that. And then whatever medium and tools we use will build on that and don't expect the tools to fix those problems. Yeah, I agree with you. I think we have to account for consumers versus contributors, I think we all start as consumers and however we can consume the content and structure and organization is definitely an important element of that and and also how you consume it right the medium is is also important I think the beauty of what we're talking about with read the docs is that we wouldn't have to move away, necessarily from like with the creation point still lives in and the creator experience still lives in GitHub, just the consumption is kind of you know we're translating the markdown into something that is structurally and visually easier to consume. Sounds good. I'm totally down for sending people to and probably if we think beyond the just the CNF working group that going back to what Tom was saying. So the CN certification where to send people Tom is CNC FAO CNF that's where I would start and really with regards to this, the certification is just it's another part of the same goals that we've had. And you and I Tom have been talking about for three years now. Sorry, I don't want to leave you hanging but I need to drop for my next call sorry. All right, that's cool. We can we can follow up about Syria. Yeah, cool. Thanks. Same, same goal. We're trying to make it easy for telecom folks who to adopt cloud native best practices, which really means how do we work in this in cloud environments in a better way, rather than using, you know, duck taper. It works but it's not taking an advantage of the fact that you're in a cloud environment, and that's really the idea with all of these things. So, if we have a aerial and Victor as well if we have a place where we can send them for the CNF working group. And I think this would be the same for the CNF test suite. Where they can come in and just something like a landing page the same as what we have for the certification. And they can get started and know how to, you know, contribute what what we're doing and how to work in it, then that sounds like a good idea. One thing that we've done in the past but haven't done as much lately would be tying. We're reading how the different initiatives work together in a documented fashion. On the calls and these, these calls and presentations and everything else we've talked about it. But I think we need to update the docs on the working group, the test suite, and the certification page to kind of tie them all together. And make sure people can get between the different areas and see how they, how they collaborate. Hi Oliver hi Kent, I don't know where y'all came in. Does anyone have any questions or comments. Ariel you got anything else. And nothing to add right now either. I did appreciate the conversation though they're on the documentation system so I just, I mean I didn't share any views there. But I guess the only thing I would say is I'm plus one for for the idea of making end user experience. It's not easy because not everyone comes from, you know, from the, the get lab get work, you know, get hub. And that might seem striking as a surprise for some of you but I think you know just making the output of what we do easy to consume is a good thing so yeah just nothing else to add today. Happy to have your help if you have time and a willing and you've done a lot on the etiquette side to make sure that we can also do it, we can, which basically with the glossary team, they have evolved the, the glossary to something more. I mean, I know they are translating the terms to multiple languages and providing these nice website using more tools and things like that so as you can see now they have like a eight languages. So and they have a more user friendly or more consumer approach. So, so let's see we can learn two things from there. Yeah, I sounds great. And you can see there, they have marked down for all of it. And I'm not sure what the system that they're using. I think that they're using the same system that it is using for the government website. What is it. It's a static website generator. Yeah. Well, and if people I mean it sounds like a lot of people are passionate about this be great. If we can come to a decision, we don't have to today but we can put some ideas up here for the system. Yeah, I do really like the glossary to. I know that there's a lot of styling and stuff going on there. We'd probably get some help on the styling side if we don't have any of us trying to go back. If we don't have anybody that's directly in call we probably reach out since you have a team that worked on this and maybe able to get some help for something like this. If we don't go with something like the read the docs or get books. If we get some ideas posted on here and then talk through those and then once we select a system. Everybody that seems passionate can help us get get it up and running and get more people in anything else on this or any other topic. We only have one last one here question. Alright, so there's been some requests for a little while about moving the CNF working group back a bit earlier time. So the main idea would be move it back one hour. It moved forward when the time change because we're locked to a UTC time 1600 UTC. So we'd move it to 1500 UTC, but really what we're saying is it would be 8am Pacific and we just wouldn't change it. It would stay that even with time change. So it'll be about the same time a day for everybody rather than this shift. I think for some folks it's 5 or 6pm in Europe and of course some people it's going to be even later, but that would move it back a little bit without being a conflict with other calls except for I think the telecom user group shift. So we may have to do some adjustments on that one call, but that's only every other month right now. We'll put up a doodle poll I guess, but is there any maybe I'm just going to put 8am I want to hear some feedback plus ones are no way for folks on the call. In my case I'm okay with this time. So, Akash, Oliver. I'm fine with it. I've calculated what it means, but yeah. Who else? I heard someone else for a moment. Ariel. It's part of me. It's not a big deal on the east coast. So I'm pretty Central European time zone friendly in the US. I don't think we're going to have any more time changes. I believe the law here we just went through our final time change here in the US. But I don't know if we're going to switch again or if we're locked into the current time I know we're getting rid of it. Yeah, I'm fine with it as well. Taylor is all over. All right. I thought that I hope that they actually switch our time to the other time Ariel. Before they lock it. But other than that, not having a time change sounds good. All right. We'll put up a doodle poll but nobody said no. Did you say something can or somebody else say it? I thought I heard one more voice. Besides the one I've heard just now. Wasn't me. It wasn't me. All right. Well, we'll put up a doodle poll. It'll be there. It'll be there for next week, but we'll post it in the channel. We won't switch next week, but maybe the following week. We'll get switched. Please do the telco focused micro survey and nominate yourself if you want to be up for voting or tell someone else to do so. Thanks everyone. See you next week. Thank you.